thunderwave or earth tremor

[FabulousFizban]

which is better?

[Contrast]

Thunderwave.

More damage and more easily targetable to avoid allies.

[RickAllison]

Differences between Thunderwave and Earth Tremor

Area: 15-ft cube vs 10-ft range, so approximately 5 feet more of range
Saving Throw: Con vs Dex
Damage: 2d8+1d8/level vs 1d6+1d6/level
Secondary Effect: Knock back 10 ft vs making area difficult terrain (if suitable terrain)
Drawback: Noise audible 300 ft away vs having to crawl your way out

The edge does go to Thunderwave in general, but Earth Tremor has better range. If you can get to Large size (or give it to larger NPCs), Earth Tremor scales up. A Huge or Gargantuan creature using Thunderwave actually has the entirety of the spell inside their space so only someone small crawling around them would be affected.

[Christian]

A Huge or Gargantuan creature using Thunderwave actually has the entirety of the spell inside their space so only someone small crawling around them would be affected.

Um, I'm pretty sure that the origin point of a spell with range of Self can be at your surface rather than your center. Otherwise, a creature of any size would take damage whenever it casts spells like Thunderwave or Cone of Cold.

[RickAllison]

Um, I'm pretty sure that the origin point of a spell with range of Self can be at your surface rather than your center. Otherwise, a creature of any size would take damage whenever it casts spells like Thunderwave or Cone of Cold.

Fair. That makes the range much more interesting. It's still only a 15-ft cube, but you can displace it. It would make the aiming much more finicky, but much more useful.

[FabulousFizban]

you are forgetting that earth tremor knocks enemies prone in a failed save.

[Feddlefew]

Thunderwave is specifically a cube starting immediately in front of you, where as earth tremor is in a radius centered on you. Combined with the damage types (rarely-resisted thunder v. commonly resisted bludgeoning, respectively), and the fact that thunderwave can be used to push enemies away from you, makes thunder wave the better choice...

.... Unless you're playing a moon druid, at which point earth tremor is a reasonably good tool for keeping high-Strength maulable targets in reach during early levels.

[RickAllison]

I have attempted to find a use for Earth Tremor, but it's not easy. The best I can figure is that a T4 Moon Druid or Shapechanged caster could use it with Quetzalcoatl to make a just-shy of 40-ft cube on the ground with each casting. Maybe it could be useful with minions who fly, so you can crush your enemies while leaving allies unharmed? It's nice regardless, however.

[Darc_Vader]

Thunderwave is specifically a cube starting immediately in front of you, where as earth tremor is in a radius centered on you. Combined with the damage types (rarely-resisted thunder v. commonly resisted bludgeoning, respectively), and the fact that thunderwave can be used to push enemies away from you, makes thunder wave the better choice...

.... Unless you're playing a moon druid, at which point earth tremor is a reasonably good tool for keeping high-Strength maulable targets in reach during early levels.

Isn’t resistance to bludgeoning usually specifically resistance to bludgeoning damage from non-magical weapons? I’m sure there are cases where it’s all bludgeoning (barbarians cone to mind), but in general I thought non-weapon b/p/s damage were some of the better damage types available.

[LudicSavant]

I disagree with the details of some of the arguments above (for example, I'd say that magical bludgeoning is not commonly resisted), but agree with the general conclusion that Thunderwave tends to be more useful overall.

Thunderwave is a solid enough blast that it stays relevant when upcast to a 2nd level slot, since the L2, non-concentration blast spells all tend to be modest area 3d8 blasts with no rider. You'd basically be trading out some range for a knockback rider, and you can occasionally pull off some pretty great plays with knockback.

Also, the area of cubes on a grid is larger than some people think it is, because of this (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/04/cloud-of-daggers-area-of-effect/) and this (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/15/burning-hands-which-is-the-correct-areas-of-effect/). (Reiterated in the Sage Advice Compendium).

Earth Tremor's main use is that you can efficiently screw over melee-focused foes with the right positioning and a kiting party, though this is limited a bit by the range and friendly fire factor. Helps if you're an Evoker.

With such low damage, I don't really think of it primarily as a blasting spell. If you're gonna prepare it, you do it for the control, not the damage. Contrast Grease.

[JackPhoenix]

Thunderwave is specifically a cube starting immediately in front of you, where as earth tremor is in a radius centered on you. Combined with the damage types (rarely-resisted thunder v. commonly resisted bludgeoning, respectively), and the fact that thunderwave can be used to push enemies away from you, makes thunder wave the better choice...

.... Unless you're playing a moon druid, at which point earth tremor is a reasonably good tool for keeping high-Strength maulable targets in reach during early levels.

It's not "commonly resisted bludgeoning". It's "very rarely resisted *magical* bludgeoning".

[RickAllison]

It's not "commonly resisted bludgeoning". It's "very rarely resisted *magical* bludgeoning".

I can think of the Treant, which blanket resists bludgeoning and piercing rather than just from weapon attacks.

[JackPhoenix]

I can think of the Treant, which blanket resists bludgeoning and piercing rather than just from weapon attacks.

There are (according to statistics I found, haven't checked every creature personally) 8 creatures resistant to bludgeoning damage (and lacking the usual non-magical clause), (in addition to treant, also multiple swarms, IIRC), and 4 creatures vulnerable to bludgeoning damage (skeletons, IIRC), and nothing is immune. To compare, thunder has 14 creatures resistant to it, 2 creatures immune, and only 1 vulnerable (earth elemental). MM only.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It all depends on my character, really.

Both. I like that I can more easily run away with Thunderwave, however, if I'm a up close and personal melee weapon user + caster... Earth Tremor is a great way to keep things near me.

[LudicSavant]

There are (according to statistics I found, haven't checked every creature personally) 8 creatures resistant to bludgeoning damage (and lacking the usual non-magical clause), (in addition to treant, also multiple swarms, IIRC), and 4 creatures vulnerable to bludgeoning damage (skeletons, IIRC), and nothing is immune. To compare, thunder has 14 creatures resistant to it, 2 creatures immune, and only 1 vulnerable (earth elemental). MM only.

As a completely random note, I appreciate that your signature corrects a common spelling error related to Eberron. You are doing the Sovereigns' work. Related: It's aberration, not abberation! One B, two Rs for Eberron and aberrations!

[Feddlefew]

It's not "commonly resisted bludgeoning". It's "very rarely resisted *magical* bludgeoning".

Whoops, my mistake. :smalleek: