The world, the Dark One, and quiddities

[Fish]

Was the original world really destroyed?

Okay, bear with me, this may be an obvious question, so let’s start with the obvious answer: yes, it was, because multiple characters in the comic tell us that it was. That answer ought to be good enough.

But still ... was it really? I mean, does it make sense within the bounds of the rules that it could?

Consider: Thor says the four-color Snarl can (and will) eventually destroy any three-color world created by the gods. Thor also explains that the gods, likewise, cannot destroy the Snarl, and for the same reason: not enough of the right colors.

Further, Thor says that a simple one-color creation of the gods can be destroyed by “any of them,” whoever “they” are. All gods? Probably not — Thor probably means all gods of a matching quiddity, that yellow gods can easily unmake yellow creations, and so on.

So the gods created the four-color Snarl, giving the Snarl enough colors to destroy the original four-color creation. It can do what the gods of a single pantheon cannot do alone. So it makes sense that the Snarl could have destroyed the world (and presumably, given time, the original 4 pantheons could have unmade the Snarl).

The purple quiddity of the Dark One is a color the Snarl does not possess; presumably this means the Snarl can’t undo any creation the Dark One has a hand in, nor can the Dark One unmake the Snarl.

Does that also mean the Snarl cannot kill The Dark One? If it lacks the purple essence, perhaps the Dark One is immune to it, in which case he is unleashing a weapon that cannot hurt him.

So what is the endgame? If the Dark One’s plans go through and the Snarl kills the gods, leaving only him standing, then he can make his own world which is forever immune to the Snarl. (Perhaps he has already made such a world. Perhaps he is already populating it with goblin believers.) The point is, if the Dark One is Snarlproof, who could stop him?

I mean, it seems like mortals would have to do it — multi-colored creations the Dark One can’t unmake directly, but who probably don’t wield the right kind of power to destroy him. Is talking to him really the only answer?

[Fyraltari]

So, yes then? The Snarl did destroy the first world? I mean, you didn't bring any element against that position.

Thor's words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) are : "When one god - or even just one pantheon - creates something alone, it's ephemereal, like these tiny images. It's little better than if it was made by wizard. Any one of use could waive it away in an instant". So it looks like which essences make up somebody doesn't matter as much as how many do and on that count The Snarl has the Dark One beaten.

[CriticalFailure]

The question of how the Snarl would interact with a purple being, TDO's divine magic and things that have been made with or touched by it etc is interesting. Given that the Snarl is in the rifts I also suspect the world in the rifts is 4 colored and includes green. Which makes me wonder if the final solution will be 5 colored.

[Gnoman]

All gods? Probably not — Thor probably means all gods of a matching quiddity, that yellow gods can easily unmake yellow creations, and so on.


This is where your logic chain falls apart. Thor simply says "any one of us" - interpreting this to mean "any god" is a much more straightforward solution than interpreting it as "any god of the same color as the creator, and it is immune to any god of a different color." Thor further goes on to describe plan "Get The Goblin To Fix It" as simply being a matter of putting a seal with equal color numbers to the Snarl itself on the rifts, followed by spot-welding any additional rifts as soon as they crop up.

Now, it is true that Thor does not know about the planet inside the rifts, and this means that something more is possible. With only one book left, however, it is unlikely to be a "bring back green" scenario unless the Dark One is somehow communicating with and allying with something inside the Rift - it just doesn't seem likely that something like that would be only part of a book.

[Squire Doodad]

Any given <4 Quiddity being can be undone by the Snarl with ease. Some, like the world itself, are particularly durable, but things like Gods that are a single quiddity are extremely vulnerable and can be taken out seemingly instantly by the Snarl.

The Dark One would die if the Snarl attacked him. Like, immediately. Different quiddity does not offer the same protection as an amalgam of them.

The original world might be hypothetically still around in that portal, but it looks awfully normal there (maybe the Snarl tried to put it back together?), and I suspect something else just might be going on.

[CriticalFailure]

Now, it is true that Thor does not know about the planet inside the rifts, and this means that something more is possible. With only one book left, however, it is unlikely to be a "bring back green" scenario unless the Dark One is somehow communicating with and allying with something inside the Rift - it just doesn't seem likely that something like that would be only part of a book.

It doesn't necessarily require any of the Gods working with something in the Rift - as far as we know none of the Gods are aware of the Rift world. It at minimum requires some being to go into the Rift and fetch back some stuff from the Rift world. Heck, maybe Kraagor's actually been in the Rift the entire time and has become a 4 color being and the Gods will sponsor him to become a green deity or something. Not all that likely but I don't think it would be out of place or difficult to integrate into book 7 based on what we know already.

[Squire Doodad]

It doesn't necessarily require any of the Gods working with something in the Rift - as far as we know none of the Gods are aware of the Rift world. It at minimum requires some being to go into the Rift and fetch back some stuff from the Rift world. Heck, maybe Kraagor's actually been in the Rift the entire time and has become a 4 color being and the Gods will sponsor him to become a green deity or something. Not all that likely but I don't think it would be out of place or difficult to integrate into book 7 based on what we know already.

Yes, but given the current focus on Xykon and RC, as well as the fact that Xykon is the confirmed end boss of the series, it would make for a mediocre story in comparison to what else could be done. It'd be ditching the "get the Dark One to help out" and the "Xykon and RC are in a mutual betrayal, not a mutual trust relationship" threads almost entirely. It'd also reduce the need to have the goblinoid races aided in any way.

It definitely works as a potential ending, but I don't see it happening over several other scenarios.

[Rrmcklin]

I very much did take Thor's words to mean that any given God can destroy a one color "creation" regardless of whether it's their color or not, and just because the Dark One is a different color from the Snarl doesn't mean he'd be immune to it, because, again, Thor emphasized the quantity of quiddities, not the types involved.

I also don't really see what any of this has to do with the first world possibly not being destroyed, though. Is the thinking "if the rifts can be permanently sealed with four colors, then how could the Snarl destroy the original world?" to which I'd say is fairly easy to understand: the first world wasn't acting as a jail, it was a free object. The Snarl is already imprisoned, they just want to make the prison stronger. Before it was free to do whatever. Asking how the Snarl could destroy another four-quiddity object, in context, is very much like asking how any of the three quiddity creatures in existence can kill any of the others. Or why the gods can still kill their creations. Thor made it clear that how powerful something is is different from how real it is. The Snarl happens to be both obscenely powerful and real.

[CriticalFailure]

I don't think there has to be a huge focus on green for it to be involved, just that it could be woven in in all sorts of ways if characters go into the rift which I think some will. Not that it necessarily will.

I think the Snarl is definitely stronger than any one quiddity deities because it is 4 quiddity, but it doesn't include purple in it so it might interact differently to objects containing purple compared to those containing the colors it does have. I mean, maybe it got ahold of some purple strings when that cleric of TDO tried to put a chicken in the rift and now it's a 5 quiddity being and ALL IS LOST, but that seems unlikely since Elan's happy ending probably doesn't involve all being lost. But generally speaking I think "how does the snarl interact with colors it doesn't include" is an open question.

[deuterio12]

So, yes then? The Snarl did destroy the first world? I mean, you didn't bring any element against that position.

Thor's words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) are : "When one god - or even just one pantheon - creates something alone, it's ephemereal, like these tiny images. It's little better than if it was made by wizard. Any one of use could waive it away in an instant". So it looks like which essences make up somebody doesn't matter as much as how many do and on that count The Snarl has the Dark One beaten.

That's just more divine lies because gods can still easily wipe out any existing mortals and even destroy the current world in the blink of an eye.



I don't think there has to be a huge focus on green for it to be involved, just that it could be woven in in all sorts of ways if characters go into the rift which I think some will. Not that it necessarily will.

I think the Snarl is definitely stronger than any one quiddity deities because it is 4 quiddity, but it doesn't include purple in it so it might interact differently to objects containing purple compared to those containing the colors it does have. I mean, maybe it got ahold of some purple strings when that cleric of TDO tried to put a chicken in the rift and now it's a 5 quiddity being and ALL IS LOST, but that seems unlikely since Elan's happy ending probably doesn't involve all being lost.

Clearly Elan was evil all along and plotting to destroy the gods and everything else in reach, so as the 5-color Snarl breaks free he'll start laughing maniacally going "You thought I was the fool, but I was the one fooling you all along MUAHAHAHA!"

Elan did press the self-destruct rune of that gate at his first chance after all.

[Fyraltari]

That's just more divine lies because gods can still easily wipe out any existing mortals and even destroy the current world in the blink of an eye.
Three-coloured world, three one-coloured pantheons. The maths checks out.

[hroþila]

That's just more divine lies because gods can still easily wipe out any existing mortals and even destroy the current world in the blink of an eye.
Says you. Loki didn't go that far, and even if he had, how do you reconcile "the story is full of divine lies" with "what Loki, the trickster god who is literally incapable of honesty, says is trustworthy"?

[Squire Doodad]

That's just more divine lies because gods can still easily wipe out any existing mortals and even destroy the current world in the blink of an eye.

The world is destroyed by 3 pantheons working together.

If a mortal was as strong as a god, then the god would probably have great difficulty defeating them in melee combat, but mortals for the most part have at most a third the levels a god has. They're weak, and have plenty of physical limitations. Who said the god needs to punch them to death? They can just run enough electricity through the person to drop a dire horse, or make that air they are breathing into acid.

And if the gods can have a physical presence, then they can surely make mortals bones go crunch. That's physics, not magic.

[Morgana]

Can the gods really destroy mortals this easily? Cause even if they do destroy the world and all the mortals die, their souls would still carry over

[Squire Doodad]

Can the gods really destroy mortals this easily? Cause even if they do destroy the world and all the mortals die, their souls would still carry over

I don't think Gods can destroy souls without a dedicated effort.

They just can easily kill the soft, squishy part of mortals.

The souls slowly assimilate themselves with their designated afterlife over time once the person has died, so over the course of the interim period presumably all mortal souls have dissipated. Those that haven't would be on the highest tiers of the mountain in the LG afterlife and the corresponding equivalent in the other planes, and so would be unlikely to meet anyone prior to their own dissipation.

[RatElemental]

The world in the rift likely is the original world, I imagine. For the exact same reason that a 4 color world would keep the Snarl in, the original 4 color world kept the snarl out. There might be some chunks missing though.

I don't expect any living beings on it to have survived, but that does raise the question of what actually happened to their souls. They were 4 color too.

[Squire Doodad]

The world in the rift likely is the original world, I imagine. For the exact same reason that a 4 color world would keep the Snarl in, the original 4 color world kept the snarl out. There might be some chunks missing though.

I don't expect any living beings on it to have survived, but that does raise the question of what actually happened to their souls. They were 4 color too.

Well, if the Snarl didn't get them then they dissipated into the Astral Realm over time. Even the most powerful soul would be long gone at this point.

If the Snarl did get them, I imagine that they are somehow floating within the Snarl itself or are otherwise being incorporated into the Snarl's body. If that sounds weird, just think of yourself eating a tomato. The tomato can no longer be said to be alive, but the remains of it are present somewhere in your body.

[Rrmcklin]

The world in the rift likely is the original world, I imagine. For the exact same reason that a 4 color world would keep the Snarl in, the original 4 color world kept the snarl out. There might be some chunks missing though.

I don't expect any living beings on it to have survived, but that does raise the question of what actually happened to their souls. They were 4 color too.

This statement always just makes me have to wonder: "what is your answer to the gods actually seeing the first world being destroyed and knowing exactly how long it took?"

[Squire Doodad]

This statement always just makes me have to wonder: "what is your answer to the gods actually seeing the first world being destroyed and knowing exactly how long it took?"

"Maybe "27 minutes" referred to how long it took the Snarl to kill all life as opposed to physically obliterating the world."

The next question is "wait, if everything alive is dead then how come there is visible green plants and trees on there", followed by "giving the existence of Treants and Dryads, all those plants probably have some degree of "soul power", at least in the same sense that gnats do, and those were killed by the Snarl."

[Schroeswald]

I always though the Snarl was the first world, like the conflict snarled up and led to the world turning into the Snarl, sort of tearing up any solid stuff into a bunch of threads and killing all the people.

[Roland Itiative]

So it looks like which essences make up somebody doesn't matter as much as how many do and on that count The Snarl has the Dark One beaten.

That one is a bit arguable. The Dark One, as a mortal, was a three-quiddity being. When he ascended, he created a quiddity of his own. Is he now a pure-purple being, much like the other gods are one-coloured, or is he red-yellow-blue-purple? We can't say for sure yet. It may be that The Dark One is not just capable of reinforcing the Gates, but actually going toe-to-toe with the Snarl, but doing so would still be extremely dangerous, and risk the purple quiddity disappearing if he loses.

[Fyraltari]

That one is a bit arguable. The Dark One, as a mortal, was a three-quiddity being. When he ascended, he created a quiddity of his own. Is he now a pure-purple being, much like the other gods are one-coloured, or is he red-yellow-blue-purple? We can't say for sure yet. It may be that The Dark One is not just capable of reinforcing the Gates, but actually going toe-to-toe with the Snarl, but doing so would still be extremely dangerous, and risk the purple quiddity disappearing if he loses.

Considering that a 9th level spell is ‘a drop’ of godly essence and the minimum needed to help seal up the Snarl, I think the original three essences that made the Dark One are so diluted that people could try to sell some as homeopathic medicine.

[Squire Doodad]

That one is a bit arguable. The Dark One, as a mortal, was a three-quiddity being. When he ascended, he created a quiddity of his own. Is he now a pure-purple being, much like the other gods are one-coloured, or is he red-yellow-blue-purple? We can't say for sure yet. It may be that The Dark One is not just capable of reinforcing the Gates, but actually going toe-to-toe with the Snarl, but doing so would still be extremely dangerous, and risk the purple quiddity disappearing if he loses.

The Dark One as a mortal was 3-quiddity. The ascended gods and not perfect iterations of their mortal selves though, so TDO is simply Purple and nothing else. If he does have any non-purple quiddity, it'd be residue from his time as a mortal and so would be negligible at best.

[CriticalFailure]

Maybe Belkar will be somehow imbued with green quiddity and be raised by the other gods to return green to the cosmos. Or maybe Elan's puppets. Or Kraagor. Or Mr. Scruffy. Or Mr. Scruffy AND Belkar.

[Squire Doodad]

Maybe Belkar will be somehow imbued with green quiddity and be raised by the other gods to return green to the cosmos. Or maybe Elan's puppets. Or Kraagor. Or Mr. Scruffy. Or Mr. Scruffy AND Belkar.

All of those are more "haha, gotcha!" than "ooh, fulfilling plot point!" in my opinion. Kraggor might have picked up some funky quiddities if he's still around though.

[CriticalFailure]

All of those are kind of out there ideas. But I do think it's fairly likely that the final result of the Snarl issue will involve some way of bringing all 5 known quiddities together.

But yeah, it specifically occurring in one of those ways isn't that likely.

...

... do gods breathe or eat birthday cakes?

[Morgana]

Wasn't it pretty much confirmed that mortals don't really become gods? It's more that the idea of them is what ascends, at least that's what I got from it

[RatElemental]

... do gods breathe or eat birthday cakes?

Pretty sure they can if they want to.


This statement always just makes me have to wonder: "what is your answer to the gods actually seeing the first world being destroyed and knowing exactly how long it took?"

Have we actually seen a god saying that? If I recall correctly, that was Shojo, a mortal, expositing over crayon comics that are known to not be the whole story.

[Squire Doodad]

Have we actually seen a god saying that? If I recall correctly, that was Shojo, a mortal, expositing over crayon comics that are known to not be the whole story.

27 minutes is remarkably specific.

[RatElemental]

27 minutes is remarkably specific.

So is 96.25%, and 96.25% of statistics and numbers are pulled right out of thin air when the speaker is trying to make a point or embellishing a story.

[CriticalFailure]

So is 96.25%, and 96.25% of statistics and numbers are pulled right out of thin air when the speaker is trying to make a point or embellishing a story.

You have to wonder how much Shojo embellished. He was a liar and manipulator extraordinaire, it seems likely that he altered some details to maximize his ability to get the Order to do what he wanted without exposing vulnerabilities of the Azurites.

[Jasdoif]

27 minutes is remarkably specific.So is 96.25%, and 96.25% of statistics and numbers are pulled right out of thin air when the speaker is trying to make a point or embellishing a story.On this point:


This part is easy: saying "27 minutes" implies a level of precision that means it isn't hyperbole or rounding on the part of the speaker. If you say, "He destroyed the world in ten minutes," you could just be saying "It didn't take long." Using a random, non-round number says that it is the exact, literal time it took. I wanted it to be clear that Shojo knew exactly what had happened, and wasn't guessing or estimating.

[Morgana]

I never really considered green quiddity playing a role ever again, probably cause I think the Giant has said that that was something he only made up to show how powerful the Snarl was? But then again, I think I might have gotten that from the TV tropes page, which has shown to be a terribly unreliable and outdated source

[Peelee]

On this point:

I wanted it to be clear that Shojo knew exactly what had happened, and wasn't guessing or estimating.


Oh Giant, you sweet summer child...

For reals, though, I can understand not wanting to read audience speculation if you're a content creator. "There, this should plainly state X. Now, let's see what people are saying about it... NO IT'S NOT Y PEOPLE, C'MON!"

[RatElemental]

On this point:



Huh. Guess that's that theory shot down. Still a bit of a counterintuitive way to convey the message n the comic but the comments make it clear.

[Rrmcklin]

Wasn't it pretty much confirmed that mortals don't really become gods? It's more that the idea of them is what ascends, at least that's what I got from it

That's an interpretation, but not one that's been confirmed. And I, personally, just find it simpler and less contradictory to go with, yes, they are literally the actual person, and not just some representation of them created out of belief.

But I think people push the whole "shaped by belief" thing further than the story actually has (even though the story has gone far with it).

[RatElemental]

It's not unreasonable to think that when a mortal achieves apotheosis their new god form absorbs or is created from their soul, even if the resulting god is a single quiddity. All of the gods have been sustained by multiple quiddity souls for countless billions and billions of years now, and have shown no sign of becoming multiple quiddity gods as a result.

[Squire Doodad]

It's not unreasonable to think that when a mortal achieves apotheosis their new god form absorbs or is created from their soul, even if the resulting god is a single quiddity. All of the gods have been sustained by multiple quiddity souls for countless billions and billions of years now, and have shown no sign of becoming multiple quiddity gods as a result.

That's a good point- if Thor (or Thyrm since I think he's ascended?) isn't multi-quiddity now, why would TDO be multi-quiddity?