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View Full Version : 3rd Ed Non casters good at ranged and melee? Thoughts?



gooddragon1
2019-09-07, 01:26 AM
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Saintheart
2019-09-07, 01:39 AM
Bloodstorm Blade is a non-caster that springs to mind.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2019-09-07, 01:41 AM
Str characters can take Brutal Throw and be decent with javelins (and wear Gloves of Endless Javelins even).

Bloodstorm Blade in ToB allows you to make melee attacks with a thrown weapon, so whether you're actually doing melee or hitting someone far away, it benefits from all your melee optimization.

Soulknife into Soulbow could probably do melee or ranged, but is likely better at ranged.

Precision damage such as sneak attack or skirmish can be used on both melee and ranged attacks. The character is bound to be better at one than the other, but should still be at least decent at both.

Oracle71
2019-09-07, 04:44 AM
An elf warblade/eternal blade using a bow can be good at both, if you choose maneuvers that don't specifically require a melee attack.

Thunder999
2019-09-07, 07:42 AM
Any ranged build with thrown weapons or a composite bow (and therefore reliant on strength for damage) will likely hold their own in melee with power attack and a two hander.

Psyren
2019-09-07, 02:26 PM
Your options for this are a bit thin in 3.5 but PF(1) has oodles. You can take a Paladin or Ranger for example, strip out the casting easily with an archetype like Temple Champion/Warrior of the Holy Light or Trapper/Skirmisher respectively, and make a solid switch hitter build that can take on just about anything in the Bestiary. You could also get a lot of mileage out of a martial build with boosted tier, like an Unchained Rogue, Slayer, or Lore Warden/Mutation Warrior/Martial Master Fighter.

Then depending on how loose your definition of "non caster" is, you can start throwing in classes that lack spellcasting but that have magic abilities, like alchemists, investigators, unchained monks, or kineticists.

All of the above is just first-party also, without even considering stuff like PoW, Spheres, Psionics (Marksman/Soulknife/Aegis) or AM.

Eldariel
2019-09-07, 03:43 PM
An elf warblade/eternal blade using a bow can be good at both, if you choose maneuvers that don't specifically require a melee attack.

This is about the only one I've found to be actually effective. Though in general, most archer builds can be decent in melee too if they just get a +1 Valorous weapon, Barbarian 1 and Power Attack. Eternal Blade adds Leading the Charge, Bounding Assault and even Knowledge Devotion/Eternal Training for extra funzies but the shell is valid either way. Ranger 2 for low cost Rapid Shot is also nice; Rapid Shot is the single biggest damage increase for bows aside from Splitting.

Troacctid
2019-09-08, 08:04 AM
So it's not out of the question, but generally requires some finangling? I'm thinking of the dragonfire adept and wondering if there's a version of that with slightly more range? Not sure about warlock due to aoo whenever blasting though. Also, those two are not as good at total damage (except when dfa uses hp self damage stuff). At least I think?
If you take a looser definition of non-caster, then warlocks are actually pretty solid switch hitters, as are incarnates, totemists, and...well, I almost want to say soulknives because they can easily switch between melee and ranged, but they also kinda suck at both of them, so I guess it probably doesn't count. Rogues (and similar classes) can often switch styles easily as well because the bulk of their damage comes from sneak attacks either way.


So, that raises another question, when homebrewing, what degree of this dual combat effectiveness is acceptable? It's a hard question, but I guess it can be evaluated by tier placement as a result of effectiveness + damage output + reliability + tradeoffs? Though other evaluations could also be helpful I think.
Being able to switch-hit is definitely an advantage, but I don't think it needs to come with any special drawback because feat economy and the high cost of magic weapons already push you to specialize. Also, spellcasters can basically do it for free as long as they put points in Concentration—it's as easy as casting a touch range spell instead of a ranged one.

Sutr
2019-09-08, 08:19 AM
The totemist is well regarded at melee but its manticore belt is very good and ranged.

Silvercrys
2019-09-08, 11:13 AM
The Pathfinder Kineticist is pretty good at this, and starting at level 12 or 13 (can't remember which) you can quicken a ranged touch attack, teleport to the target with Ride the Blast then full attack them with Kinetic Blade.

Biggest downside is the class is squishy and the damage isn't actually that great, though you do get to throw around a bunch of d6's. It's very flashy though. One of those classes that probably gets knee-jerk banned by DMs for looking flashy while doing less damage than anyone else like the 3e Warlock, heh.