Are Corpses objects, creatures, or both?

[Raishoiken]

So I've looked around for this before but I've forgotten where i found my answer. I remember being torn on the issue because of some spells targeting one "dead creature", although with a corpses lack of certain ability scores they defaulted to objects. Anyone have any insight?



Edit for clarity: the purpose of figuring this out is for a trick I've been mulling over involving polymorphing a body made via clone in order to get past the no changing something into a "creature" with a template

[Uncle Pine]

Here you go: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)

Wisdom
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.
Normal corpses, unlike corpses animated as a costruct or undead creature, have no Wisdom or Charisma. Therefore, they are objects.

[Jack_Simth]

Here you go: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)

Normal corpses, unlike corpses animated as a costruct or undead creature, have no Wisdom or Charisma. Therefore, they are objects.

Do you have a source on a creature with the dead condition not having wisdom or Charisma scores?

[Psyren]

IIRC another source for the "corpses are objects" reading came from Unguent of Timelessness:


Unguent of Timelessness

When applied to any matter that was once alive this ointment allows that substance to resist the passage of time. Each year of actual time affects the substance as if only a day had passed. The coated object gains a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws. The unguent never wears off, although it can be magically removed (by dispelling the effect, for instance). One flask contains enough material to coat eight Medium or smaller objects. A Large object counts as two Medium objects, and a Huge object counts as two Large objects.

Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 150 gp

With that said I don't agree that you should be able to animate objects on corpses.

[NNescio]

With that said I don't agree that you should be able to animate objects on corpses.

Best thing ever for trolling enemy clerics. And not so enemy ones.

[Raishoiken]

With all this said, if a corpse is an object you should be able to polymorph a corpse into a templated corpse?

[Biggus]

This has been debated a couple of times recently:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586676-Is-a-corpse-treated-as-a-creature-or-an-object

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583994-Can-you-cast-Animate-Object-on-a-corpse&p=23795681#post23795681

TL;DR: the majority opinion is that corpses are objects, but some people disagree.

[Thurbane]

https://memebomb.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/im-just-here-for-the-comments-meme-2.png

...seriously though, there not much to be debated on this that hasn't already been covered.

See the threads that Biggus has linked directly above.

[unseenmage]

..., but some people disagree.
This here's my surprised face. It looks a lot like my regular face.

[Necroticplague]

A corpse is a creature with the Dead condition. Otherwise, Raise Dead wouldn't work in the way it's usually depicted and described as working.

[Jack_Simth]

The short answer to the original post's question is: "Not directly referenced in RAW and the indirect references handle it inconsistently, so ask your DM"

[Raishoiken]

Cant ask the dm, the purpose (which i should edit in) is a to build polymorphing a clone (an inert object of flesh as stated in the spell) and inhabiting the new body

[Uncle Pine]

Ah, I definitely forgot we've had this chat before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583994-Can-you-cast-Animate-Object-on-a-corpse). I'm still a fan of "corpses are either objects or indestructible, as creatures can't be sundered".

[Jack_Simth]

Cant ask the dm, the purpose (which i should edit in) is a to build polymorphing a clone (an inert object of flesh as stated in the spell) and inhabiting the new body

Well, if you can't ask the DM, and it's for a real game, then you probably are the DM, so make a ruling and move on.

[Raishoiken]

Well, if you can't ask the DM, and it's for a real game, then you probably are the DM, so make a ruling and move on.

It's not for a game, it's just the first step to a trick I've been thinking about on and off. OP edited for clarity. Also, im sure there are plenty of dm's who'd prefer official clarity or help making decisions to just hand waving their own ruling

[Remuko]

I think of it like unarmed strike, how its (at least for a monk) treated as a natural and manufactured weapon (for certain purposes). A corpse is a creature with the dead condition, but its ALSO an object, depending on the circumstances.

[Psyren]

It's not for a game, it's just the first step to a trick I've been thinking about on and off. OP edited for clarity. Also, im sure there are plenty of dm's who'd prefer official clarity or help making decisions to just hand waving their own ruling

There is no "official clarity", that's kind of the point.



Edit for clarity: the purpose of figuring this out is for a trick I've been mulling over involving polymorphing a body made via clone in order to get past the no changing something into a "creature" with a template

So you want to polymorph [corpse of creature] into [corpse of templated creature] and then use that as your replacement body, thus putting yourself inside something templated?

I'd rule no, as the clone must be a duplicate of you - no modifications of any kind, including polymorph.

[Anymage]

The clone spell specifically might be tricky, since the clone only activates if the original soul is free and available once the clone is finished growing.

Still, when asking what abilities can fairly target the growing clone (which I don't think has ever been conclusively answered), you might as well cut out the middleman. Kill someone, PAO their corpse into a corpse of the desired form, have a friendly cleric raise them. Is the corpse an acceptable target for this at the outset? What traits do you consider tied to the physical body, vs what traits do you consider to come from some other source? 3.x doesn't really cover these points. Nor does it if you go about it through other forms of changing your shape. (E.G: Flesh to Stone, Stone Shape, Stone to Flesh to radically reconfigure someone's body.)

And hint: If the general class of questions had been answered that you could indeed template up by just changing your state while being temporarily living-impaired, it would have become standard optimization procedure by now. It's subject to DM interpretation at best.

[Vaern]

Some spells that affect corpses list an (object) note on the spell resistance and saving throw lines, indicating that they interact with corpses as objects.
Some spells that affect corpses list a (harmless) note on the spell resistance and saving throw lines, indicating that they interact with corpses as creatures.
Some spells list a "corpse" as their target, which may indicate that they see the corpse as an object.
Some spells list a "dead creature" as their target, which indicates that they see the corpse as a creature.

A corpse can be considered either a creature or an object. You might say that it depends on how the corpse is being interacted with.
Spells that target a corpse and have some sort of interaction with the subject's soul, like resurrection spells and speak with dead, tend to see the target as a creature.
Spells that affect the corpse physically but do not interact with or channel the subject's soul tend to see the target simply as an object.

As an alternative point of view on the subject, a dead creature by RAW always has -10 HP regardless of how it died. An object is destroyed when it has 0 HP or less. I'd like to think that if a corpse was considered an object then a dying creature would, upon reaching - 10 HP, immediately explode into a shower of blood and gore.

[Jack_Simth]

It's not for a game, it's just the first step to a trick I've been thinking about on and off. OP edited for clarity. Also, im sure there are plenty of dm's who'd prefer official clarity or help making decisions to just hand waving their own ruling

What Psyren said. There isn't official clarity. One way or another, you will need to get your own ruling in that regard. Just make sure to note that it's ambiguous when you write up the trick.

[Selion]

What happens if i cast animate object on a corpse, then a cleric uses resurrection?

[Thurbane]

Are Corpses objects?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/40/d5/a440d5b6f52a170b59025e35b720b537.jpg

[ShurikVch]

Objects are don't have HD; creatures - do. Thus - corpses are creatures: they using their HD to calculate their saves

[Calthropstu]

What happens if i cast animate object on a corpse, then a cleric uses resurrection?
either 1:
The now resurrected person is no longer a legal target for animate object.
or 2:
The now resurrected person has a really bad day as they fight the spell for command of their body.

[thorr-kan]

Well, if you want to bring real world definitions into it...US Immigration and Customs Enforcement has a policy:
For sapients, if it's breathing it's an Immigration issue; if it's not breathing, it's Customs issue.

Source: Original research about 10 years ago.

My then-pregnant wife and I were having dinner with some college friends. I made a joke about smuggling the not-yet born baby across international borders during the pregnancy. One former suitemate, working for Immigration, heard "human trafficking" and started freaking out that "I can't hear this." (Fair enough; he's as LG as they come, and I wouldn't want to cost him his job.)

The entire table goes quiet, and then somebody says, "Dude, she's pregnant." which he had somehow missed. He stops, thinks for a second, and sits back down. "We're good; that's a Customs issue, not an Immigration one."

Whole table goes more silent. I go, "What?!"

He goes, paraphrased, "For sapients, if it's breathing it's an Immigration issue; if it's not breathing, it's Customs issue. So a fetus, a corpse, or a vampire all have Customs paperwork. The parents have Immigration paperwork."

10 years have passed, so make of it what you will. But once upon a time, the law said a corpse was an object.