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Trandir

2019-09-07, 12:42 PM

weckar

2019-09-07, 12:58 PM

So what's your aim here? Blastomancer or...?

ExLibrisMortis

2019-09-07, 01:18 PM

Trandir

2019-09-07, 01:23 PM

So what's your aim here? Blastomancer or...?

Anything but mostly scout, trapfinding and all the others OoC activity

Blastomancer might be good since the other party members play emmmmm.... not even without optimizing but just badly. Our Sorcerer loves fireballs and the Cleric disintegration, and both get DC around 24. At level 18. And the Master of Many Forms uses always the same forms to do anything.

I'd like to get utility to do the scout/skillmonkey but I have to be usefull in combat.

Zaq

2019-09-07, 01:27 PM

Feats let you do things. While you've got a reasonable path set out for you by that class structure, the real question is this: what do you want to do, and how do you want to do it? Are you actually doing the sneak attack thing, or are you just having fun with a more-skillful-than-usual wizard? Do you actually want to lean into unseen seer's divination/spymaster focus? What is the character's goal in round-by-round and day-by-day terms?

Let's talk a bit about the feats you listed:

Persistent Spell is a little bit hard to use if you're not using some form of metamagic reduction. What specific spells are you planning on Persisting? It's bandied about as a "high-power feat," but if you're not using some reduction package or another, it's hella expensive. Persisting a 2nd level spell takes an 8th level slot out of the box! Think about the havoc you can wreak with an 8th level spell before committing like that. (Extend Spell is reasonable out of the box, though do look at whether it's really needed with CL 17.)

Do have a long discussion with your GM before diving into Master Spellthief. The feat is worded in a very confusing fashion. I'm of the camp that believes that MS advances which levels of spells you can steal but not which levels of spells you can hold, so if you're stealing more than a 1st level spell, the spell will instantly dissipate and you can't actually use it yourself. There are other possible readings (which, as I stated, I personally think are less valid), so you'll need to make sure that you and the person whose word is law are on the same page before you start. Likewise, you'll need to discuss if PrCs that advance wizard casting (but that do not grant their own casting) are the same as "levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief," my emphasis. Reasonable opinions differ on this.

You're what, level 18 to start? Acidic Splash gives you a ranged touch attack, but the range (to hell with the damage, but the range really matters) is dependent upon the spell you're using to power it. How many high-level spells with the [Acid] keyword do you have? How many will you actually want to prepare (and leave prepared) at the expense of other spells of that particular level? Reserve feats have a higher opportunity cost on a prepared caster than on a spontaneous caster, especially at high levels. (Also, how many spells per day do you have versus how many combat rounds you expect to have? You can probably afford to devote a handful of slots in the 2nd-4th level range to various RTAs and get through the working day just fine. Or buy a wand or two with your level 18 WBL and never look back.) Do recall, of course, that sneak attack only works within 30 ft, so if you're actually trying to add d6s to RTAs, you'll want to be careful with how close you're comfortable getting to things.

Re: Obtain Familiar—familiars can be useful, but they're only as useful as you make them. If you're leaning into the skillmonkey/scout role, they're potentially helpful out of combat. Whether you want to try to do the whole "familiar has a meaningful presence on the battlefield" thing depends strongly on your GM; I often find that to be risky. Remember, having a familiar isn't inherently powerful or not—what matters is what you plan to do with said familiar. If you actually have a plan for what you want your familiar to be able to do for you, then awesome! Go for it. But if you're just taking it because you read a handbook that said that familiars are cool and you don't really have any ideas for what to do with that familiar, then I wouldn't spend any resources on it without putting a bit more time into the plan.

What feats might help you, then? Hmm.

Again, it depends on what you really want to do. You've got a pretty strong skill base, so depending on whether you've got a race picked out, it might be a good idea to nab Able Learner, take spellthief first, and shore up your skill flexibility.

I don't know if you like doing the whole crafting thing, but as a prepared caster, you'd be pretty darn good at it. You can get some surprising mileage out of Craft Wondrous Item... though if you can just spend your level 18 WBL on whatever you like, that matters less.

If you (the player, not the character) are super-duper comfortable with every spell in your spellbook, Uncanny Forethought gives you some ridiculous flexibility. Again, though, it requires some real mastery on the part of the player and can really slow down gameplay (or just end up being useless) if you don't know your stuff forwards and backwards.

If you consider HP damage to be a primary goal and you're already doing the sneak attack thing, Craven is a semi-obvious choice. Do be aware that it means that you can't take advantage of becoming immune to fear, though, which is a big downside at high levels.

If you're doing sneak attack, how are you achieving the necessary conditions? Sometimes it's worth investing a feat or two in getting good at that, though on that class structure it'd be hard to become amazing with feats alone and no other investment. Darkstalker might help, if nothing else.

Remember how I said that sneak attack requires being within 30 feet? I know that you've got wizard casting, but it might be worth putting in some investment to get an extra defensive option or two. Martial Study for a Diamond Mind use-Concentration-as-saving-throw maneuver or two, for instance. Quick Recovery to nope out of conditions that would cost you a turn. That kind of thing.

You can always invest a feat or two in something weird that increases out-of-combat utility, if that's your deal, but the specifics will really depend on what your goal is.

Overall, what do you want to do, and how do you want to do it?

Trandir

2019-09-07, 02:36 PM

I'd definitely trade the familiar away, and pick up Practiced Spellcaster and Darkstalker. I would also take Unseen Seer all the way to level 10, reducing your Arcane Trickster levels to 3. You get the same sneak attack and spellcasting, an extra point of base attack, eight more skill points, a higher CL for Divination spells, and an extra Advanced Learning spell (if you absolutely want to max SA, US 7/AT 6 gets an extra die compared to US 6/AT 7 or US 10/AT 3).

Practiced spellcaster doesn't stack with master spellthief, does it? And master spellthief has the added bonus to negate ASF of light armor for wizard spells and advances steal spell (sort of)

O yes darkstalker i forgot about that good catch.

I intend to take more unseen seer levels as I can. But the 9th and 10th levels provide nearly nothing of value so at best I'll continue till unseen seer 8. Also the only reason why I took arcane trickster to 7 is the second use of Impromptu sneak attack.
My intention was to use Persistent Hunter's Eye to get more SA, 13 probably are enough right?

Feats let you do things. While you've got a reasonable path set out for you by that class structure, the real question is this: what do you want to do, and how do you want to do it? Are you actually doing the sneak attack thing, or are you just having fun with a more-skillful-than-usual wizard? Do you actually want to lean into unseen seer's divination/spymaster focus? What is the character's goal in round-by-round and day-by-day terms?
Ok I did not expect such massive wall of text but it's welcome surprise to be sure. Now to answer all in order:

This PC want to be a thief and steal all the things (of decent value not random pickpocketing) and less of a spy. For damage I first thought og going for the SA route but good old BFC or Blasting works too.

Let's talk a bit about the feats you listed:

Persistent Spell is a little bit hard to use if you're not using some form of metamagic reduction. What specific spells are you planning on Persisting? It's bandied about as a "high-power feat," but if you're not using some reduction package or another, it's hella expensive. Persisting a 2nd level spell takes an 8th level slot out of the box! Think about the havoc you can wreak with an 8th level spell before committing like that. (Extend Spell is reasonable out of the box, though do look at whether it's really needed with CL 17.)

(CL 18 with master spellthief)
My original plan was to persist hunter's eye and cloud of knives every morning and watch everything bleed out spell slots but that was the original plan nothing permanent.
And I never played an arcane spellcarster: what can one do with an 8th level spell?

Do have a long discussion with your GM before diving into Master Spellthief. The feat is worded in a very confusing fashion. I'm of the camp that believes that MS advances which levels of spells you can steal but not which levels of spells you can hold, so if you're stealing more than a 1st level spell, the spell will instantly dissipate and you can't actually use it yourself. There are other possible readings (which, as I stated, I personally think are less valid), so you'll need to make sure that you and the person whose word is law are on the same page before you start. Likewise, you'll need to discuss if PrCs that advance wizard casting (but that do not grant their own casting) are the same as "levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief," my emphasis. Reasonable opinions differ on this.

I have to clarify that but it should work both for this and the familiar

You're what, level 18 to start? Acidic Splash gives you a ranged touch attack, but the range (to hell with the damage, but the range really matters) is dependent upon the spell you're using to power it. How many high-level spells with the [Acid] keyword do you have? How many will you actually want to prepare (and leave prepared) at the expense of other spells of that particular level? Reserve feats have a higher opportunity cost on a prepared caster than on a spontaneous caster, especially at high levels. (Also, how many spells per day do you have versus how many combat rounds you expect to have? You can probably afford to devote a handful of slots in the 2nd-4th level range to various RTAs and get through the working day just fine. Or buy a wand or two with your level 18 WBL and never look back.) Do recall, of course, that sneak attack only works within 30 ft, so if you're actually trying to add d6s to RTAs, you'll want to be careful with how close you're comfortable getting to things.

Yea that feat was chosen when I first read master spellthief so I looked for a ranged touch attack spammable and that was exactly what I was looking for. But on second thought just filling the 4th level slot with an orb of X should be just fine for our tipical adventuring day

What feats might help you, then? Hmm.

Again, it depends on what you really want to do. You've got a pretty strong skill base, so depending on whether you've got a race picked out, it might be a good idea to nab Able Learner, take spellthief first, and shore up your skill flexibility.

I don't know if you like doing the whole crafting thing, but as a prepared caster, you'd be pretty darn good at it. You can get some surprising mileage out of Craft Wondrous Item... though if you can just spend your level 18 WBL on whatever you like, that matters less.

Ahahahahaha that sure is funny, for me at least. Crafting usually isn't the best thing to do since it cost quite a lot of xp to get good things.

Also the WBL in this table is...... weird.
I got 1.000.000 gp to use, but the local shop got just gloves of dex +6, bracers of armor +8, 10 potions of cure wounds that cost 750 each and a wand of detect secred door,
That's it not even a +1 dagger or any wondorous item.

If you (the player, not the character) are super-duper comfortable with every spell in your spellbook, Uncanny Forethought gives you some ridiculous flexibility. Again, though, it requires some real mastery on the part of the player and can really slow down gameplay (or just end up being useless) if you don't know your stuff forwards and backwards.

Hum. This is interesting. A garbage feat tax to get some spontaneus caster-like flexibility. But first I need some more spells (this DM is really gentle so I get a lv 17 wizard spellbook, 4 spell of each level from 2 to 8 and 2 lv 9 spells plus the 2 from unseen seer)

If you consider HP damage to be a primary goal and you're already doing the sneak attack thing, Craven is a semi-obvious choice. Do be aware that it means that you can't take advantage of becoming immune to fear, though, which is a big downside at high levels.

I'd prefer to go for tge ability damage route, I'm looking at you shivering touch.

If you're doing sneak attack, how are you achieving the necessary conditions? Sometimes it's worth investing a feat or two in getting good at that, though on that class structure it'd be hard to become amazing with feats alone and no other investment. Darkstalker might help, if nothing else.

The plan is using darkstalker/invisibility/sometimes flanking and most important Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day to get sneak attack

Remember how I said that sneak attack requires being within 30 feet? I know that you've got wizard casting, but it might be worth putting in some investment to get an extra defensive option or two. Martial Study for a Diamond Mind use-Concentration-as-saving-throw maneuver or two, for instance. Quick Recovery to nope out of conditions that would cost you a turn. That kind of thing.

That could be a possibility, tho it only works once every encounter with the feat one auto succes on a fortitude/will save is probably enough to win a fight sometimes.

You can always invest a feat or two in something weird that increases out-of-combat utility, if that's your deal, but the specifics will really depend on what your goal is.

Overall, what do you want to do, and how do you want to do it?

Steal, sneak around, use prestidigitation and other spells to save the day.
And if possible show the cleric and sorcerer how a true spellcaster fights. Those 2 have suboptimal builds, with suboptimal gear, and garbage a spell selection and poor spell DC.

ExLibrisMortis

2019-09-07, 04:07 PM

Practiced spellcaster doesn't stack with master spellthief, does it? And master spellthief has the added bonus to negate ASF of light armor for wizard spells and advances steal spell (sort of)
Practiced Spellcaster offsets the CL loss from Unseen Seer, effectively giving you +3 CL on Divinations and full CL on everything else. Master Spellthief only gives one extra CL.

I intend to take more unseen seer levels as I can. But the 9th and 10th levels provide nearly nothing of value so at best I'll continue till unseen seer 8. Also the only reason why I took arcane trickster to 7 is the second use of Impromptu sneak attack.
9th level US grants +1 CL for hunter's eye, so that's pretty nice. 10th level US gives 1d6 SA, so that's really good. There's really no reason to take AT 4-7 over US 7-10 unless you want that Advanced Learning to pick up a specific high-level spell.

Trandir

2019-09-07, 05:12 PM

Practiced Spellcaster offsets the CL loss from Unseen Seer, effectively giving you +3 CL on Divinations and full CL on everything else. Master Spellthief only gives one extra CL.

Oooooooooh you meant to take it to cover the "trade" for that +1/2/3 on divination.
Yea it's probably a good idea.

9th level US grants +1 CL for hunter's eye, so that's pretty nice. 10th level US gives 1d6 SA, so that's really good. There's really no reason to take AT 4-7 over US 7-10 unless you want that Advanced Learning to pick up a specific high-level spell.

US 8 seemed a good spot to leave, I get the3 divination spells off list and 2 complete sets of 3/4 bab. And miss 1 bonus CL for divination and 1 SA dice.
AT offers just 3 class features alternating ranged legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack for the odd levels and 1 extra SA dice for every even level. And out of it I want a single class feature(more SA is nice but there is far better in this game): Impromptu Sneak Attack. (So AT 7 fetch me a second daily use and is perfect to fit all the levels till 20)

Free guaranteed sneak attack twice a day is, in my modest noob opinion great, you can make with a spell a touch attack with the enemy that loses even his DEX bonus, so nearly 100% chance to hit against most enemies, and the ability damage should kill nearly anything, vulnerable to both sneak attack and ability damage, when backed by 10+ d6 from sneak attack.

That sayed wizard 4/ ST 1/ US 8/ AT 4 / + 3 more levels on other PrC is probably better than my original plan but eccessive multiclass annoys the master so the plan to do wiz 4/ ST 1/ US 6/ AT 7/ US +2 is the way to avoid rocks from the sky.

But you seem to value that extra +1 divination CL very highly, why is it?

ExLibrisMortis

2019-09-07, 05:29 PM

That sayed wizard 4/ ST 1/ US 8/ AT 4 / + 3 more levels on other PrC is probably better than my original plan but eccessive multiclass annoys the master so the plan to do wiz 4/ ST 1/ US 6/ AT 7/ US +2 is the way to avoid rocks from the sky.
Fair enough, if it pleases the DM, I suppose that's the way to go.

You might be interested in choose destiny as 8th-level Advanced Learning spell, by the way (Destiny domain spell from Races of Destiny; it's even Persistable, if you include a way to get free metamagic once a day). Try to get that 8th level at ECL 18.

But you seem to value that extra +1 divination CL very highly, why is it?
Well, it gets you +1d6 SA a level early (at ECL 18, it'd bump you from CL 20 to 21). It also makes it harder to dispel hunter's eye. Scrying and greater scrying are SR:Yes. Lots of reasons to like high CL in general, more so than the ability to declare a free sneak attack, because (a) you're a wizard: if you can't SA right now, you can cast a spell (either to ensure SA or to blow the target up some other way), and (b) you can Persist greater invisibility as a 9th-level spell if you reduce the slot adjustment on Persistent Spell by one (for example, with Easy Metamagic or Practical Metamagic, the latter requiring slightly more investment), or even just cast it ahead of combat.

Trandir

2019-09-07, 05:59 PM

Fair enough, if it pleases the DM, I suppose that's the way to go.

You might be interested in choose destiny as 8th-level Advanced Learning spell, by the way (Destiny domain spell from Races of Destiny; it's even Persistable, if you include a way to get free metamagic once a day). Try to get that 8th level at ECL 18.

Well, it gets you +1d6 SA a level early (at ECL 18, it'd bump you from CL 20 to 21). It also makes it harder to dispel hunter's eye. Scrying and greater scrying are SR:Yes. Lots of reasons to like high CL in general, more so than the ability to declare a free sneak attack, because (a) you're a wizard: if you can't SA right now, you can cast a spell (either to ensure SA or to blow the target up some other way), and (b) you can Persist greater invisibility as a 9th-level spell if you reduce the slot adjustment on Persistent Spell by one (for example, with Easy Metamagic or Practical Metamagic, the latter requiring slightly more investment), or even just cast it ahead of combat.

Ok now I feel dumb. Looking trough the divination spells for the third to take I found vital strike, and that basically offers the same effect of Impromptu Sneak Attack, I can't steal spells with it but whatever it still makes arcane trickster far less interesting. So I probably sould take hunter's eye, vital strike the third still to decide divination spell ditch 3 AT levels ant take only four, increase US to 8 from the get go and I still have a the 18th level to take ( or continue with US and worry about only the 20th level).

Choose destiny is great, I'll probably take it I am unlucky as hell with the rolls.

About greater invisibility that's not a bad idea, not at all.
I could take easy metamagic for persistent spell and residual magic. This way with one 9th level slot, two 7th level slots, one 4th level slots, two 2nd level slots I and my familiar can be invisible with +7d6 SA and with the cloud of knives for a nice hell of blades. And I still have all the 3rd level slots for shivering touch and vital strike.
A little sad for my only 9th level slot but I will survive that

I love it

Zaq

2019-09-07, 06:18 PM

If you’re into trading spell slots for easy sneak attacks 1:1, look up wracking touch in the Spell Compendium. (Easy target for Reach Spell if you want to stay at range, as well.)

Rebel7284

2019-09-08, 01:27 AM

If you take a crafting feat, consider craft contingent spell. 18+1 Contingency is pretty silly broken. You can share it with your party too!

Trandir

2019-09-08, 04:08 AM

If you’re into trading spell slots for easy sneak attacks 1:1, look up wracking touch in the Spell Compendium. (Easy target for Reach Spell if you want to stay at range, as well.)

That's nice but for fishing SA probably lesser orb of X or lerrer shivering touch is better.
The only real trade of spell slots for SA is the cloud of knifes but I just find funny a little animal throwing magical knifes at people

If you take a crafting feat, consider craft contingent spell. 18+1 Contingency is pretty silly broken. You can share it with your party too!

Yea, that is one way to break the game but I do not like crafting in d&d 3.5.
If you know a way to cheese it that's a different discussion

And apparently all the levels stack for both master spellthief and obtain familiar.
That's nice

Troacctid

2019-09-08, 12:48 PM

Ahahahahaha that sure is funny, for me at least. Crafting usually isn't the best thing to do since it cost quite a lot of xp to get good things.

Also the WBL in this table is...... weird.
I got 1.000.000 gp to use, but the local shop got just gloves of dex +6, bracers of armor +8, 10 potions of cure wounds that cost 750 each and a wand of detect secred door,
That's it not even a +1 dagger or any wondorous item.
In that case, you should definitely take Craft Wondrous Item. The xp cost is well worth it to be able to actually spend that money on real items.

Free guaranteed sneak attack twice a day is, in my modest noob opinion great, you can make with a spell a touch attack with the enemy that loses even his DEX bonus, so nearly 100% chance to hit against most enemies, and the ability damage should kill nearly anything, vulnerable to both sneak attack and ability damage, when backed by 10+ d6 from sneak attack.
When you sneak attack with ability damage, the extra damage is negative energy damage, not more ability damage.

Trandir

2019-09-08, 03:35 PM

In that case, you should definitely take Craft Wondrous Item. The xp cost is well worth it to be able to actually spend that money on real items.

Definetely is debatable in this situation, since:
1 we won't have the years that take to craft even half of that gold in items,
2 this DM doesn't like to give lot of xp exept for completing quests so we get to the next level without any leftovers for crafting, and I do not have access to ambrosia or other ways to reduce the xp price.
3 my spellbook is limited (for now I hope) to the free spells of the wizard and the 3 divination spells from US so I can't craft anything good even if I want to.

When you sneak attack with ability damage, the extra damage is negative energy damage, not more ability damage.

Right. My bad on that part. And AT has been reduced from 7 to 3 from the get go.

I also discarded the idea of taking a familiar so I get 2 more feats to choose any advice?

Troacctid

2019-09-09, 02:01 AM

Trandir

2019-09-09, 02:33 AM

Crafting is not that expensive, xp-wise. And you can sneak a lot of prerequisites by using planar binding to get helpers. But if it doesn't float your boat, I guess that's fine. See if you can at least use the bonded magic item rules from DMG2.

The usual basic item that grants a characteristic +6 costs 1.440 xp, not exactly a low price, but pearls of power and other little items' cost is resonable.
Right interplanar slavery is probably one of the best ways to get something. I am thinking of efreeti but do you have some other suggestions?

As for feats—Collegiate Wizard (or Greyhawk Method), get more spells.

A feat for extra spells too bad of a trade. I, and probably anyone who pays a wizard, refuse to take them.
But thanks for the idea anyway.

Eldariel

2019-09-09, 03:04 AM

Well soon I'll play a wizard 4/ spellthief 1/unseen seer 6/ arcane trickster 7.
This means 17/18 wizard progression so I'll basically play one, but a little more feat starved.

I get the usual 7 feats for a lv 18 pc
I am considering this feats:
Extended spell
Persistent spell
Practiced spellcaster ( and I am considering to not take Master spellthief at all)
Darkstalker
Easy metamagic (persistent)

For super fun with lot of persistent spells

Any advice for the other 2 feats to take or better feats?

Bonus: since I get only 4 levels worth of familiar progression I will trade it with ACF and either take the obtain familiar feat or just stay without one.
What should I do?
I'll get abrupt jaunt so I do not have to worry about the walking XP bag als known as familiar

Just swap to Rogue instead of Spellthief; Rogue 1 gets you a crapload of skill points and a great skill list and you lose nothing of value (and 100% go Rogue 1/Wizard 4 instead of Wizard 4/Rogue 1 for those awesome (8+Int)x4:s). Those feats are good, but top picks aside from those:
- Assume Supernatural Ability (if you want your familiar to be a 20 mile radar with Polymorph; though on this level you don't even need this since you can just cast Shapechange and share it instead and turn your familiar into an Elder Brain)
- Obtain Familiar 110% since you have great skills; consider Improved Familiar for e.g. Pseudodragon that you can Psychic Reformation (Limited Wish or bought casting) to have Mindsight for instance. This gets you a radar and an auxiliary buffeé/spell completion item user, spotter, etc. It's just superuseful and that's before you turn it into an Elder Brain or w/e for multimile radar (1000 miles with Spellweaver [MMII]). The trade-offs are nice though on this level Abrupt Jaunt is way worse than (Greater) Celerity and its ilk.

Generally great feats:
- Quicken Spell (almost a must unless you have normal WBL)
- Craft Wondrous Items (just way good if you can use it in character creation)

Other options:
- Rapid Shot (though Heroics exists - full attack sneak attack from almost a mile away for full Sneak Attack is pretty sweet and you have stuff like Scrying and Chain of Eyes to make it happen)
- Ocular Spell (for broader Persists)
- More Metamagic reducers (Practiced Spellcaster, Metamagic School Focus)

Trandir

2019-09-09, 04:09 AM

Just swap to Rogue instead of Spellthief; Rogue 1 gets you a crapload of skill points and a great skill list and you lose nothing of value (and 100% go Rogue 1/Wizard 4 instead of Wizard 4/Rogue 1 for those awesome (8+Int)x4:s). Those feats are good, but top picks aside from those:
- Assume Supernatural Ability (if you want your familiar to be a 20 mile radar with Polymorph; though on this level you don't even need this since you can just cast Shapechange and share it instead and turn your familiar into an Elder Brain)
- Obtain Familiar 110% since you have great skills; consider Improved Familiar for e.g. Pseudodragon that you can Psychic Reformation (Limited Wish or bought casting) to have Mindsight for instance. This gets you a radar and an auxiliary buffeé/spell completion item user, spotter, etc. It's just superuseful and that's before you turn it into an Elder Brain or w/e for multimile radar (1000 miles with Spellweaver [MMII]). The trade-offs are nice though on this level Abrupt Jaunt is way worse than (Greater) Celerity and its ilk.

Generally great feats:
- Quicken Spell (almost a must unless you have normal WBL)
- Craft Wondrous Items (just way good if you can use it in character creation)

Other options:
- Rapid Shot (though Heroics exists - full attack sneak attack from almost a mile away for full Sneak Attack is pretty sweet and you have stuff like Scrying and Chain of Eyes to make it happen)
- Ocular Spell (for broader Persists)
- More Metamagic reducers (Practiced Spellcaster, Metamagic School Focus)

First of all thanks for the help.
Now to answer to your post:

So little trivia in this table you get 4x skill ranks for every first level you take in any class, so for the first wizard, spellthief, unseen seer and arcane trickster. And with a good intelligence mod I'll probably get too many skill ranks.

-I'd rather not use polymorph-like spells. It feels cheap when you have a master of many forms in the party and you get to do almost the same thing as him through spells. Also probably shapechange would be better at this level and requires no feat, right?

-If I get the familiar (and maybe improved familiar) then I have to worry about the little thing (50 hp for a familiar are quite few). And the little trick to get the omny radar will get almost certenly rejected. But even the good old regular familiar can be usefull but I do not want to risk that XP bag gets killed. How can i protect it?

-I do not have normal WBL nor I can use I as normal WBL, so it is an intresting option

-I left the details out but this PC is created via heavy magic and retraining so no Backstory CWI. This makes the feat borderline useless.

-Extended heroics with CL 18 gets me 6 hours of feats so the ones from the warrior bonus feat list aren't that appealing.

-What spells that are not personel from the get go would get benefit from becoming persistent?
And how can I make up for the +8/7 extra spell levels from metamagic? (The only way I can think of is to cast once on myself persistent and then use residual magic to put persistent on the ocular spell for someone else)

- practiced spellcaster didn't increase the CL? Or there is another version that reduces metamagic?

Also if abrupt jaunt loses his use at high level what should I trade base familiar for?

Eldariel

2019-09-10, 03:20 PM

First of all thanks for the help.
Now to answer to your post:

So little trivia in this table you get 4x skill ranks for every first level you take in any class, so for the first wizard, spellthief, unseen seer and arcane trickster. And with a good intelligence mod I'll probably get too many skill ranks.

-I'd rather not use polymorph-like spells. It feels cheap when you have a master of many forms in the party and you get to do almost the same thing as him through spells. Also probably shapechange would be better at this level and requires no feat, right?

Shapechange on this level, yeah. Don't cast it on yourself but it's nice on your familiar.

-If I get the familiar (and maybe improved familiar) then I have to worry about the little thing (50 hp for a familiar are quite few). And the little trick to get the omny radar will get almost certenly rejected. But even the good old regular familiar can be usefull but I do not want to risk that XP bag gets killed. How can i protect it?

Well, keeping it in whatever defended locale you act from is pretty easy. Magnificent Mansion, Genesis demiplane or whatever. You can also Astral Project or whatever if you feel so inclined (Lesser Planar Binding for a Nightmare does it for free and Moment of Prescience autowins the opposed check); Astral Projections don't care about dying. Anyways, just buff it. It's not like you have much more HP; either of you will die in a single hit so make that unlikely. Contingency effects are the best defense as ever; contingent teleportation negates the lion's share of issues. Keeping it back in radar duty or similar will also negate most danger to it and of course, you can cast your Superior Resistances and Empowered False Lives and whatever on it every day to make it slightly less likely to explode randomly. Overall though, judicious use of extraplanar spaces (check out Familiar Pocket [Spell Compendium]), contingencies (check out Chain Contingency [Tome & Blood] and Instant Refuge [Spell Compendium]) and such should make it an extremely difficult target.

-I do not have normal WBL nor I can use I as normal WBL, so it is an intresting option

As a Wizard you can always pretty effortlessly make WBL through various means if you feel so inclined, including the oldfashioned robbery/thievery/mindrape.

-I left the details out but this PC is created via heavy magic and retraining so no Backstory CWI. This makes the feat borderline useless.

-Extended heroics with CL 18 gets me 6 hours of feats so the ones from the warrior bonus feat list aren't that appealing.

Both valid options.

-What spells that are not personel from the get go would get benefit from becoming persistent?
And how can I make up for the +8/7 extra spell levels from metamagic? (The only way I can think of is to cast once on myself persistent and then use residual magic to put persistent on the ocular spell for someone else)

Take 3 levels of Incantatrix? Else, Lesser Metamagic Wands are pretty cheap. Typical combo would be...I dunno, Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity for invulnerability (though you can just Hide Life [Tome & Blood] the oldfashioned way). As an example. There are lots of good touch spells that benefit of persistomancy.

- practiced spellcaster didn't increase the CL? Or there is another version that reduces metamagic?

My bad, I meant Practical Metamagic.

Also if abrupt jaunt loses his use at high level what should I trade base familiar for?

Well, Abrupt Jaunt is never bad, just your immediate actions will be more contested. Spellslot free teleportation is still nice though so it's not a bad pick for when you don't have your immunities and want to conserve your Celerities. There are no better options, to be sure.

Trandir

2019-09-10, 03:53 PM

Hello there. It's always nice to discuss with you

Well, keeping it in whatever defended locale you act from is pretty easy. Magnificent Mansion, Genesis demiplane or whatever. You can also Astral Project or whatever if you feel so inclined (Lesser Planar Binding for a Nightmare does it for free and Moment of Prescience autowins the opposed check); Astral Projections don't care about dying. Anyways, just buff it. It's not like you have much more HP; either of you will die in a single hit so make that unlikely. Contingency effects are the best defense as ever; contingent teleportation negates the lion's share of issues. Keeping it back in radar duty or similar will also negate most danger to it and of course, you can cast your Superior Resistances and Empowered False Lives and whatever on it every day to make it slightly less likely to explode randomly. Overall though, judicious use of extraplanar spaces (check out Familiar Pocket [Spell Compendium]), contingencies (check out Chain Contingency [Tome & Blood] and Instant Refuge [Spell Compendium]) and such should make it an extremely difficult target.

Well contingency with teleport/planar travel spells is a perfect way to protect the familiar.
Also our sorcerer has his little toad in his cape and he never ever put it out nor the master kept track of his hp so I guess that a vest's pocket would be enough to protect him if it is not directly targeted.

This means that residual magic is great to give him cloud of knives, hunter's eye, sniper's shot. This would take the 2 vacant feats so that's nice too.

As a Wizard you can always pretty effortlessly make WBL through various means if you feel so inclined, including the oldfashioned robbery/thievery/mindrape.

By that I meant that this PC still has more than 950k gp but the DM keeps magic items shops random and just in a single kingdom so I can't actually spend that almost twice WBL on anything decent

Take 3 levels of Incantatrix? Else, Lesser Metamagic Wands are pretty cheap. Typical combo would be...I dunno, Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity for invulnerability (though you can just Hide Life [Tome & Blood] the oldfashioned way). As an example. There are lots of good touch spells that benefit of persistomancy.

Oh I see. Interesting feat. Worth considering but I do not have that many feats left so I have to cut something in the final build

My bad, I meant Practical Metamagic.

I am neither a spontaneus caster or a dragon but thanks for the advice. Another pc might use it.

Well, Abrupt Jaunt is never bad, just your immediate actions will be more contested. Spellslot free teleportation is still nice though so it's not a bad pick for when you don't have your immunities and want to conserve your Celerities. There are no better options, to be sure.

Well we play in a weird core game. All manuals are legal but we play with no errata or updated rules. So no swift/immediate action.

This means that I have to get some other ACF, 4 levels worth of familiar isn't worth it.