Dual-Cursed Oracle [Hellbound and Demonic]. Do the benefits and penalties stack?

[Zhentarim]

I’m considering making a neutral evil dual-cursed oracle with Hellbound as the primary curse and Demonic as the secondary curse. How do these two curses interact mechanically, and does this make sense from a lore perspective if my character is dealing with all kinds of evil outsiders?

[Psyren]

The buffs and penalties are both untyped and would therefore stack. This means that you would get a -4 penalty to Diplomacy against Lawful creatures, a -4 penalty against Chaotic creatures, and the combined penalty (-8) against Good creatures. However, you'd also gain a combined +4 to Bluff and Intimidate against everything, and get to pick them both as class skills.

[enderlord99]

It's kind of funny that the character would get a -8 penalty against Neutral Good characters and a -12 against Good, non-Neutral characters.

...

They would, right?

[grarrrg]

It's kind of funny that the character would get a -8 penalty against Neutral Good characters and a -12 against Good, non-Neutral characters.

...

They would, right?

Not as written no.
Demonic "Good and lawful creatures instinctively distrust you, and you take a –4 penalty on all Diplomacy checks". There is no rider stating "Lawful Good creatures take -8", so Demonic tops off at -4 vs. Lawful Good.
Hellbound is written identically. So combined the worst you'd get is a -8 against Good creatures, and -4 for Lawful/Chaotic Non-Good creatures. Only TN and NE are unaffected.

[Zhentarim]

Not as written no.
Demonic "Good and lawful creatures instinctively distrust you, and you take a –4 penalty on all Diplomacy checks". There is no rider stating "Lawful Good creatures take -8", so Demonic tops off at -4 vs. Lawful Good.
Hellbound is written identically. So combined the worst you'd get is a -8 against Good creatures, and -4 for Lawful/Chaotic Non-Good creatures. Only TN and NE are unaffected.

Now the challenge is coming up with a good story reason why TN and NE are uneffected.

[Psyren]

Now the challenge is coming up with a good story reason why TN and NE are uneffected.

They care neither about your demonic nor diabolic aspects. (contrast with NG, who would care strongly about both.)

[Kurald Galain]

does this make sense from a lore perspective if my character is dealing with all kinds of evil outsiders?
Since the first question has already been addressed, let's look at the second.

No, this makes no sense from a lore perspective (although by RAW, it is technically legal). Since pretty much every curse could be the result of dealing with outsiders, from a lore perspective it makes more sense to pick basically any combination other than this one.

Aside from that, mechanically speaking, this is not a particularly useful combination anyway. What do you want your character to do, and can you find a curse that would support that?

[Psyren]

Agreed, mechanically it's pretty subpar, so I was assuming this was a thought experiment than an actual character. If what you want is Bluff and Intimidate as class skills, you can get those via traits or feats. Eating a -4/-8 to diplomacy is a bad move for a face character, especially as it tends to be rolled the most out of any of the persuasion skills.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

You may get penalties to Diplomacy, but you also get bonuses to Bluff/Intimidate and saves against Charm/Fear, immunity to Fire and Poison, and can eventually treat your weapons as Evil, Chaotic, and Lawful. That's not a bad list of benefits and it comes with an interesting plot hook

[Psyren]

You may get penalties to Diplomacy, but you also get bonuses to Bluff/Intimidate and saves against Charm/Fear, immunity to Fire and Poison, and can eventually treat your weapons as Evil, Chaotic, and Lawful. That's not a bad list of benefits and it comes with an interesting plot hook

Actually no - Dual-Cursed doesn't advance both your curses. So for example you could get the fire immunity from Hellbound OR the poison immunity from Demonic, but not both. (The second curse you pick only gives you the intro ability, i.e. the +2 bluff/intimidate.)

[Zhentarim]

Since the first question has already been addressed, let's look at the second.

No, this makes no sense from a lore perspective (although by RAW, it is technically legal). Since pretty much every curse could be the result of dealing with outsiders, from a lore perspective it makes more sense to pick basically any combination other than this one.

Aside from that, mechanically speaking, this is not a particularly useful combination anyway. What do you want your character to do, and can you find a curse that would support that?

I thought about the character and she evolved into the following tangentally related character.

In a village named Kassen, there was born an innocent girl named Zion Watchtower with a birthmark on her forehead that strongly resembled a pentagram used by diabolists, but since she was born in the nation called Nirmathas, and since diabolism is frowned upon there, other girls bullied her. Adults were nicer to Zion, so she spent her time working up at the local church of Erastil under the mentorship of the priest named Father Rantal Prasst. She worked with him alongside other acolytes who served either Erastil or other allied faiths like Sarenrae, Iomedae, or Cayden Cailean. Together they tended not just the church, but the adjacent crematorium, adjacent graveyard, and adjacent mausoleum as well. One day Zion had just got home when some mean girls tried to ambush her. She ran back to the church and thought the crematorium would be a good place to hide since Zion was a physically weak and clumsy girl, and though she had managed to charm some of the village through strength of personality, these were girls who never liked Zion and she knew they would try to hurt her. One of the bullies, possessed by a bloodthirsty rage, saw the crematorium door closing, and the bully ran over and locked the door and started the flames. Zion was mortified as she heard the girls laughing and running away. Zion called out for anybody to help her, but her pleas for help turned to screams of agony as her arms began to burn and blacken. Suddenly, Zion heard a voice saying “I’ll help you for a price,” and Zion immediately replied “Yes, any price I’ll pay! Help me!”. Suddenly, Zion heard devilish laughter. Though her arms and most of her body remain blackened and stiff to this day, at that point, Zion no longer felt the pain of the flames. “There, you are resistant to fire and you have the power to get yourself the help you need, now. Just focus your mind on the on the mausoleum and you can summon help every day as you need to. Thank you for the soul and I’ll leave you with a parting gift.” Zion kicked the door of the crematorium and found it was still locked. After concentrating a moment, she heard one of the mausoleum doors unlocking and a sound like a coffin being opened and emptied of its contents. A few moments after she heard the thud, she heard shuffling and groans. Zion did and the voice told her and concentrated her thoughts on the mausoleum, hoping to escape before whatever “parting gift” the voice left her decided to eat her. No sooner did Zion focus her will than did the moaning grow louder. She heard the lock to the crematorium being fumbled with over the sound of the crackling flames. The door opened and Zion screamed because there was a hideous zombie staring back at her. It did not attack her, however, instead helping her out of the crematorium. Zion, still in shock, stood there locked in gaze with her unlikely savior for a while before she told the zombie to go away, and it shambled away without much fanfare. A year passed and now the annual coming of age ceremony to retrieve the Everflame from the Crypt of the Everflame is here. Given her injuries, Father Rantal Prasst doesn’t want her to go, but Zion insists, as she wants to finally prove herself as a woman.

1)[Devil-Damnation]Fiendskin: Gain Fire Resistance 5
Human Bonus) Improved Channel: +2 to channel energy DC
Oracle Bonus) Command Undead


Blackened: -4 on attack rolls, add burning hands to spells known.

Bones Mystery
1) Undead Servitude


0: Spark
0: Read Magic
0: Detect Magic
0: Stabilize

1Bonus: Inflict Light Wounds
1Bonus: Burning Hands
1: Grasping Corpse
1: Infernal Healing

[DRAWBACK] Burned
[FAITH] Birthmarked
[MAGIC] Gifted Adept: Burning Hands
[COMBAT] Hard to Kill


7 str
7 dex
15 con
12 int
12 wis
18+2=20 cha

Scale Mail Armor (Includes Gauntlets) (80 GP) (30 pounds)

[TiaC]

Since the first question has already been addressed, let's look at the second.

No, this makes no sense from a lore perspective (although by RAW, it is technically legal). Since pretty much every curse could be the result of dealing with outsiders, from a lore perspective it makes more sense to pick basically any combination other than this one.

Aside from that, mechanically speaking, this is not a particularly useful combination anyway. What do you want your character to do, and can you find a curse that would support that?

This situation is that time John Constantine sold his soul to multiple demon lords at once so that his death would force a war in Hell, forcing them to keep him alive.

[Divine Susuryu]

This situation is that time John Constantine sold his soul to multiple demon lords at once so that his death would force a war in Hell, forcing them to keep him alive.

Dangerous Habits, absolutely legendary. One of the top comic storylines of all time.

However, they were nominally on the same side in that storyline. Demons and devils are natural enemies, although there's no Blood War in Golarion (which sorta raises the question "why haven't demons overrun everything since there's so many of them?" that the Blood War was trying to solve in the first place). So the fluff of this really doesn't make a bunch of sense. A demon and a devil would rather just fight to the death over a soul than go "howsabout we share?"

I think the new version of the character presented makes much more sense.

[Kurald Galain]

This situation is that time John Constantine sold his soul to multiple demon lords at once so that his death would force a war in Hell, forcing them to keep him alive.

While that's certainly a nice backstory, it should pick two curses that more closely both represent demon lords. Because this combination doesn't match that backstory.

[Psyren]

This situation is that time John Constantine sold his soul to multiple demon lords at once so that his death would force a war in Hell, forcing them to keep him alive.

That wouldn't work in D&D; there's already a war in hell, or at least between Hell and the Abyss. Trying to cause a civil war within just one of the two wouldn't work either - the devils would decisively solve it even if they have to invoke the most obscure and convoluted yet ironclad legal precedent imaginable, while the demons would either determine the result randomly or simply cede you to the strongest guy who cared.


I thought about the character and she evolved into the following tangentally related character.
*snip*

Okay, but... is there a question here?


Dangerous Habits, absolutely legendary. One of the top comic storylines of all time.

However, they were nominally on the same side in that storyline. Demons and devils are natural enemies, although there's no Blood War in Golarion (which sorta raises the question "why haven't demons overrun everything since there's so many of them?" that the Blood War was trying to solve in the first place). So the fluff of this really doesn't make a bunch of sense. A demon and a devil would rather just fight to the death over a soul than go "howsabout we share?"

Pathfinder has no Blood War (that term is product identity, so they'd be sued if they did) but there are other mechanisms that keep demons in check. Some of these include:


PF demons, in true CE fashion, are just as prone to infighting as their D&D counterparts. So they limit their own ability to get anything done almost as much as any external group would have anyway.
They're also opposed by the Abyss' former masters, the Qlippoth, who want nothing more than to take back control one day. There is very, very little chance of this ever happening, but the Qlippoth's machinations do nevertheless get in the demons' way more often than not.
Neither Golarion's Abyss nor its inhabitants are truly infinite the way D&D's is - just "arbitrarily vast." The demons do outnumber the devils as before, but they are finite this time, and it's likely that devils and angels don't need to work together in quite the same desperate way just to barely keep them in check. The Abyss isn't even the largest plane (though it's still very big). That honor goes to the Maelstrom (Limbo), which leads me to:
If there is a "blood war" in PF, it falls more between Proteans and Demons (who view the Abyss and its inhabitants as the first cosmic mistake) than between demons and devils.