Bannan_mantis
2019-09-07, 09:23 PM
So overall I think twf is fine in 5e but I also feel like with a few changes it could be made better. On classes like rangers, rogues and barbarians it's fine but the class which had me thinking about this is the fighter and some changes for it. I've always felt that a twf fighter is almost always doing worse than a great weapon fighter so to try and balance it out some more I've made this change to the dual wielder feat and the fighter's twf fighting style. Just to note I've made it so the fighter's twf fighting style only works if you're a pure fighter, rangers can't choose it and multiclassing into or out of fighter makes it not available since twf on other classes is already powerful.
Dual wielder
While wielding two light weapons in each hand you gain a +1 bonus to AC
When attacking with two light weapons you can perform two extra attacks with your offhand weapon instead of just one
I put the second line to make it so that the dual wielder feat can be more inline with great weapon master, this said though I am concerned for rangers using this for one more hunter's mark attack so for now I'm keeping it as a universal choice but in the future I might change this to fighter only like the new twf fighting style.
Two weapon fighting
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to all attacks made, the off hand attack is made as part of your action and whenever you action surge the number of off hand attacks you make is equal to the number of attacks you can make with your normal attack action.
The first part is to make it so it scales better from levels 1-20 weakening it at low levels but buffing it at higher levels which works since twf at low levels is overall stronger than gwf but at higher levels this switches, the second part makes it better for action economy so you can use things like a samurai's fighting spirit and second wind while not just being weaker than normal in terms of damage and the last one is so whenever you action surge you're more in line with gwf again but also making a huge number of attacks is why people often pick up two weapon fighting so letting them do 12 attacks at level 20 just feels right
after testing these seem to be balanced next to gwf and if you'd like to see some numbers which I got using ludic's damage calculator (original post is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517267-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator), big thanks to the guys who made this here:
Target AC for calculations: 14
twf (normal version) - two weapon fighting in normal adventures league games
twf (new version) - this version of two weapon fighting
gwf (great weapon) - great weapon fighter with the great weapon fighting style
gwf (defence) - great weapon fighter with the defender
Level 1 fighter
twf (normal version) 8.15 (base) / 9.45 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 7.55 (base) / 10.43 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 7.22 (base) / 8.28 (geat weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 6.35 / 7.72 (great weapon master)
Level 5 fighter
twf (normal version) - 16.28 (base) / 18.53 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 17.68 (base) / 21.7 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 18.1 (base) / 21.95 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 16.1 (base) / 20.56 (great weapon master)
Level 11 fighter
twf (normal version) - 27.9 (base) / 31.3 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 30.3 (base) / 34.88 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 33.25 (base) / 41.64 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 29.85 (base) / 39.13 (great weapon master)
Level 20 fighter
twf (normal version) - 39.13 (base) / 43.88 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 48.13 (base) / 54.15 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 49.67 (base) / 65.22 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 44.6 (base) / 61.32 (great weapon master)
From this we can see that it still scales a little more linear than great weapon fighting does but overall is more balanced and in line with great weapon fighters so I think it works. What are other people's thoughts on these changes?
Dual wielder
While wielding two light weapons in each hand you gain a +1 bonus to AC
When attacking with two light weapons you can perform two extra attacks with your offhand weapon instead of just one
I put the second line to make it so that the dual wielder feat can be more inline with great weapon master, this said though I am concerned for rangers using this for one more hunter's mark attack so for now I'm keeping it as a universal choice but in the future I might change this to fighter only like the new twf fighting style.
Two weapon fighting
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to all attacks made, the off hand attack is made as part of your action and whenever you action surge the number of off hand attacks you make is equal to the number of attacks you can make with your normal attack action.
The first part is to make it so it scales better from levels 1-20 weakening it at low levels but buffing it at higher levels which works since twf at low levels is overall stronger than gwf but at higher levels this switches, the second part makes it better for action economy so you can use things like a samurai's fighting spirit and second wind while not just being weaker than normal in terms of damage and the last one is so whenever you action surge you're more in line with gwf again but also making a huge number of attacks is why people often pick up two weapon fighting so letting them do 12 attacks at level 20 just feels right
after testing these seem to be balanced next to gwf and if you'd like to see some numbers which I got using ludic's damage calculator (original post is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517267-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator), big thanks to the guys who made this here:
Target AC for calculations: 14
twf (normal version) - two weapon fighting in normal adventures league games
twf (new version) - this version of two weapon fighting
gwf (great weapon) - great weapon fighter with the great weapon fighting style
gwf (defence) - great weapon fighter with the defender
Level 1 fighter
twf (normal version) 8.15 (base) / 9.45 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 7.55 (base) / 10.43 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 7.22 (base) / 8.28 (geat weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 6.35 / 7.72 (great weapon master)
Level 5 fighter
twf (normal version) - 16.28 (base) / 18.53 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 17.68 (base) / 21.7 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 18.1 (base) / 21.95 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 16.1 (base) / 20.56 (great weapon master)
Level 11 fighter
twf (normal version) - 27.9 (base) / 31.3 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 30.3 (base) / 34.88 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 33.25 (base) / 41.64 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 29.85 (base) / 39.13 (great weapon master)
Level 20 fighter
twf (normal version) - 39.13 (base) / 43.88 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 48.13 (base) / 54.15 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 49.67 (base) / 65.22 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 44.6 (base) / 61.32 (great weapon master)
From this we can see that it still scales a little more linear than great weapon fighting does but overall is more balanced and in line with great weapon fighters so I think it works. What are other people's thoughts on these changes?