View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Twf change

2019-09-07, 09:23 PM
So overall I think twf is fine in 5e but I also feel like with a few changes it could be made better. On classes like rangers, rogues and barbarians it's fine but the class which had me thinking about this is the fighter and some changes for it. I've always felt that a twf fighter is almost always doing worse than a great weapon fighter so to try and balance it out some more I've made this change to the dual wielder feat and the fighter's twf fighting style. Just to note I've made it so the fighter's twf fighting style only works if you're a pure fighter, rangers can't choose it and multiclassing into or out of fighter makes it not available since twf on other classes is already powerful.

Dual wielder
While wielding two light weapons in each hand you gain a +1 bonus to AC
When attacking with two light weapons you can perform two extra attacks with your offhand weapon instead of just one

I put the second line to make it so that the dual wielder feat can be more inline with great weapon master, this said though I am concerned for rangers using this for one more hunter's mark attack so for now I'm keeping it as a universal choice but in the future I might change this to fighter only like the new twf fighting style.

Two weapon fighting
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to all attacks made, the off hand attack is made as part of your action and whenever you action surge the number of off hand attacks you make is equal to the number of attacks you can make with your normal attack action.

The first part is to make it so it scales better from levels 1-20 weakening it at low levels but buffing it at higher levels which works since twf at low levels is overall stronger than gwf but at higher levels this switches, the second part makes it better for action economy so you can use things like a samurai's fighting spirit and second wind while not just being weaker than normal in terms of damage and the last one is so whenever you action surge you're more in line with gwf again but also making a huge number of attacks is why people often pick up two weapon fighting so letting them do 12 attacks at level 20 just feels right

after testing these seem to be balanced next to gwf and if you'd like to see some numbers which I got using ludic's damage calculator (original post is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517267-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator), big thanks to the guys who made this here:

Target AC for calculations: 14
twf (normal version) - two weapon fighting in normal adventures league games
twf (new version) - this version of two weapon fighting
gwf (great weapon) - great weapon fighter with the great weapon fighting style
gwf (defence) - great weapon fighter with the defender

Level 1 fighter
twf (normal version) 8.15 (base) / 9.45 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 7.55 (base) / 10.43 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 7.22 (base) / 8.28 (geat weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 6.35 / 7.72 (great weapon master)

Level 5 fighter
twf (normal version) - 16.28 (base) / 18.53 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 17.68 (base) / 21.7 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 18.1 (base) / 21.95 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 16.1 (base) / 20.56 (great weapon master)

Level 11 fighter
twf (normal version) - 27.9 (base) / 31.3 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 30.3 (base) / 34.88 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 33.25 (base) / 41.64 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 29.85 (base) / 39.13 (great weapon master)

Level 20 fighter
twf (normal version) - 39.13 (base) / 43.88 (dual wielder)
twf (new version) - 48.13 (base) / 54.15 (dual wielder)
gwf (great weapon) - 49.67 (base) / 65.22 (great weapon master)
gwf (defence) - 44.6 (base) / 61.32 (great weapon master)

From this we can see that it still scales a little more linear than great weapon fighting does but overall is more balanced and in line with great weapon fighters so I think it works. What are other people's thoughts on these changes?

2019-09-08, 09:32 AM
I'm a little concerned with 3 attacks at level 1 at will with dual wielded. That's a pretty huge boon for a variant human.

I would rather see the second attack offhand happen a little bit later. Say 5th or 6th level, or even 10 or 11.

2019-09-08, 11:53 AM
Thought this would be relevant in deciding whether or not to lower the number of attacks.https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/101655/what-is-the-maximum-number-of-attacks-a-single-character-can-make-themselves-dur

2019-09-08, 04:43 PM
You think TWF in 5e is fine, yet see the need to give it large and significant boosts. Not sure that jives.

Your Dual Wielder needs the clause about having Extra Attack, then it'll scale much better. IMO, isn't the worst just to shove that into the default version of the game. It's requires for TWF to keep up to anyway.

Your Two weapon Fighting is kind of a mess and I'm not sure what it is trying to say.

2019-09-09, 05:09 PM
I'm having a bit of trouble following your language.

Starting for base dual wielding, you're already using your bonus action, so replacing the penalty to damage with one to attack rolls is a bit awkward. That makes the base damage much higher at low levels, even if you have -1 to hit.

Having the extra attack happen as part of the action rather than taking up your bonus action is interesting. However, stacking it up with your version of the feat is a bit awkward.

Also, if it's in line with GWF, it's slightly overpowered.

I suggest granting one additional hit with the off hand weapon when you have extra attack. That grants extra bonuses for fighters at 11th level and 20th level, keeping it in line with other fighters. 12 attacks when you use your action surge at 20th level.

I also give +1 AC for holding a second weapon in the off hand. This creates a benefits for holding a rapier with a dagger as well as when dual wielding.

Once fighting with two weapons is reasonably powerful past 4th level, the feat from the books is fine by itself. Particularly, it isn't as broken for a 1st level variant human as your version and GWF are.