Please estimate CR for this Murder encounter

[Jowgen]

A lone PC foolish enough to split from the party walks down an alley, when he is best upon by a Murder of Crows (ToM). This Murder has been Hiveminded, per the LoT hivemind creature template; giving it a few 1st level spells and making half of its Swarm damage vile damage.

As the Murder is summoned directly on top of the PC, the swarm should invariably get a surprise round (sans things like ring of battle-magic perception or somesuch noticing the summoning nearby). In this surprise round, the Murder casts Grease on the ground below.

The PC now has to contend with 1d6 damage/turn (half of it vile), DC 14 Ref save against blindess each time damage is taken, DC 12 saves against Nausea at the start of their turn, DC 14 Ref save against falling prone start of the Murder's turn, and a DC 20+ Concentration check to cast spells and such. The Swarm has an initiative mod of +6, AC 17, 22 HP and takes half damage from piercing/slashing.

The extra challenge lies in the fact that killing the Murder only buys 1 round of reprieve before another Murder is summoned, so win conditions are either finding the summoner (who will immediately surrender) or escaping.

I am having trouble deciding what CR to assign to this, would appreciate any ballpark estimates.

[Khedrac]

As the Murder is summoned directly on top of the PC, the swarm should invariably get a surprise round (sans things like ring of battle-magic perception or somesuch noticing the summoning nearby). In this surprise round, the Murder casts Grease on the ground below.
Two issues here (you can rule 0 them away, but...):
The Murder of Crows (MoC) cannot be summoned directly on top of the PC - summing requires an empty space for the summoned to manifest in.
Even ignoring the above, the PC should still get some form of check not to be surpised (e.g. spot to see the beginnings of the MoC appearing). Automatic surprise is poor adventure writing and virtually never justified. If the MoC is being summoned by a spell cast from nearby, then remember that spell-casting is not quiet and most PCs on hearing obvious spellcasting near them will go on alert until they know it isn't affecting them.

If the PC has combat reflexes, expect the grease to be interrupted by an AoO.

As for CR, work out the base CR for the templated MoC then:
Summoning directly on top of PC = situational +1
Automatic surprise = situational +1.
If the terrain is very restricting for the PC (so a big tactial advantage for the MoC) then another situational +1.

[Jowgen]

Two issues here (you can rule 0 them away, but...):
The Murder of Crows (MoC) cannot be summoned directly on top of the PC - summing requires an empty space for the summoned to manifest in.

Swarms are an exception to that rule.


(You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.)


Even ignoring the above, the PC should still get some form of check not to be surpised (e.g. spot to see the beginnings of the MoC appearing). Automatic surprise is poor adventure writing and virtually never justified.

Noted. I had discounted this due to the disparity between the required perception skill checks and the level range the encounter would be appropriate for (e.g. Listen DC 25 to hear spellcasting without verbal components, not incl. range, ambient noise, etc.); but I'll see about ad-hocing something that would give a chance of noticing without the need for battlemagic perceptions.


If the PC has combat reflexes, expect the grease to be interrupted by an AoO.

Noted, though them having a specific counter shouldn't really impact the CR of the encounter afaik.


As for CR, work out the base CR for the templated MoC then:
Summoning directly on top of PC = situational +1
Automatic surprise = situational +1.
If the terrain is very restricting for the PC (so a big tactial advantage for the MoC) then another situational +1.

3+1 (Hivemind) + 1 + 1 = 6

So a 6th level PC ought to be able to handle this then in your opinion?

[DeTess]

So a 6th level PC ought to be able to handle this then in your opinion?

CR 6 means that a party of 4 6th level adventurers can handle it. For a single 6th level PC it's going to be a pretty close call who will win.

[Asmotherion]

Two issues here (you can rule 0 them away, but...):
The Murder of Crows (MoC) cannot be summoned directly on top of the PC - summing requires an empty space for the summoned to manifest in.
Even ignoring the above, the PC should still get some form of check not to be surpised (e.g. spot to see the beginnings of the MoC appearing). Automatic surprise is poor adventure writing and virtually never justified. If the MoC is being summoned by a spell cast from nearby, then remember that spell-casting is not quiet and most PCs on hearing obvious spellcasting near them will go on alert until they know it isn't affecting them.

If the PC has combat reflexes, expect the grease to be interrupted by an AoO.

As for CR, work out the base CR for the templated MoC then:
Summoning directly on top of PC = situational +1
Automatic surprise = situational +1.
If the terrain is very restricting for the PC (so a big tactial advantage for the MoC) then another situational +1.

From the SRD under Conjuration:

"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

This means that the Crows the summoner summons must appear on solid ground. Thus you either summon in proximity or in the space of the PC (special swarm exception) and the PC is entitled an AoO as they fly away. They are also entitled a spot/listen (and then spellcraft) to avoid being surprised. Given how the caster must have line of effect to summon in the PC's space he is probably hiding within range. Unless he is casting a silant spell he can be heard and unless he is curently invisible he can be spotted as well. Finally the moment the crows manifest he is entitled to an other spot/listen (low DC as they are in front of him) to become Aware of them and thus not subject to a surprise round.

Eventhough i don't trust the CR system i'll estimate the whole encounter to CR6 given that the enemy spellcaster does not interfere with the encounter after summoning.

[noce]

Eventhough i don't trust the CR system i'll estimate the whole encounter to CR6 given that the enemy spellcaster does not interfere with the encounter after summoning.

You mean CR 6 for each summoned swarm then, since the summoner will keep summoning.

[hamishspence]

From the SRD under Conjuration:

"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."


I figure that's to prevent the "drop fiendish whale on enemy" stunt.

In cases where empty space is unavoidable (say, you are on the Plane of Air) - I'd allow it. Same with innately floating creatures. A summoned air elemental for example.

[Jowgen]

From the SRD under Conjuration:

"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

This means that the Crows the summoner summons must appear on solid ground. Thus you either summon in proximity or in the space of the PC (special swarm exception) and the PC is entitled an AoO as they fly away. They are also entitled a spot/listen (and then spellcraft) to avoid being surprised. Given how the caster must have line of effect to summon in the PC's space he is probably hiding within range. Unless he is casting a silant spell he can be heard and unless he is curently invisible he can be spotted as well.[/FONT]

Very interesting points.

Regarding the flying bit, surely there has got to be a throw away line that makes an exception for flying summons. Or any summon on/under water for that matter. If not, the elemental planes of air and water just got a whole less hospitable for conjurers. In this case in particular though, it wouldn't matter as the Murder is perfectly capable of functioning while landed on the ground (minus the speed drop). Plus, to my knowledge going from land to fly speed doesn't provoke unless you actually exit a square in the process.

Spot/Listen to the caster is a tricky point. As the Swarm has a 10 ft area but the PC only 5 ft, the summoner only really needs line of effect to the corner of a space 5 ft ahead of the PC to succeed; though I suppose I could give it a percentile roll whether the succeeds on the timing in that case (i.e. a pseudo miss chance for avoiding direct line of sight). As the summoner was an assasination type, I had intended to have the effect lack verbal components (e.g. silent spell or warlock with the invocation, depending) so that's a Listen DC 25 plus penalties.


Finally the moment the crows manifest he is entitled to an other spot/listen (low DC as they are in front of him) to become Aware of them and thus not subject to a surprise round.

This I do not agree with. Surprise round occurs when creature is unaware of enemy at start of combat. In this scenario, if whatever initial check to notice the summoner casting is failed, the PC is unaware of the caster as he finishes the spell and thus starts combat. The Swarm is invariably an opponent present in this surprise round and doesn't even need to be aware of the target inside of it to deal swarm damage at the end of its turn.

Granting a check to become aware of the swarm would be akin to granting a sneak attack target another spot check to notice the rogue who successfully snuck up as the attack happens, only worse.


You mean CR 6 for each summoned swarm then, since the summoner will keep summoning

I think that would be excessive, as there is never more than 1 swarm present. It's really more akin to the swarm having a lesser form of fast healing or regeneration, which is at most a +1.

[noce]

I think that would be excessive, as there is never more than 1 swarm present. It's really more akin to the swarm having a lesser form of fast healing or regeneration, which is at most a +1.

A 1 round respawn is not a "lesser" form of fast healing by any means. The swarm is back at full health over and over and over again. A character without listen and spot cannot overcome this encounter.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Note you cannot cast a summon during a surprise round at all normally. Summons are a one round action cast time so they take a full round action to start casting. You would need the Rapid Spell metamagic feat or a UA Conjurer variant to cast the summon in a surprise round. Wizard would be mandated (and thus you would need to deal with listen checks).

Also given the encounter EXP should be awarded for running away. Anything short of an optimized to the Nine Hells and back 6th level character will be destroyed by this, especially if killing it just spawns in another (at which point it is an encounter vs the summoner, not the summons, and the encounter level is likely much higher). Since escaping is a viable solution considering lowering the exp gain if they take that route.

[Seerow]

If the swarm is a spell effect why are we calculating the CR of the swarm? The encounter is the spellcaster who is summoning these swarms.


Similarly any perception checks should be to notice the summoner/hear his spellcasting, not somehow notice the swarm before it pops into existence.



So whatever level spellcaster is required to summon this particular swarm = CR. Possibly bonus CR for guaranteed surprise round (though if the PC is capable of noticing the casting, I would not give that CR increase). Similarly the summoning directly on top of the PC is fine per the summoning swarm rules quoted earlier in the thread.


So CR of encounter = CR of the Caster + 1 (terrain) + 0-1 (Surprise, depending on if you actually making it possible to avoid the surprise round)

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, since the swarms are the product of spell slots from the "assassin", the encounter is with the assassin, not with the assassin's spell slots. Creatures summoned by another creature are (always AFAIK) treated as a part of the base creature's Challenge.

What is the "assassin"? You should start there and then consider ad-hoc adjustments.

EDIT: Also, I'm not familiar with the hive mind template - what's "LoT"? How is it applied to the summoned swarm?

[heavyfuel]

I feel like the Murder is completely irrelevant for CR calculation. It's a spell being cast by a caster. The CR of the encounter is the CR of the caster.

Any feat and skill investment the caster might have made (Hide, Sleight of Hand -> Concealed Spellcasting skill trick, Silent Spell, etc) are part of the casters level and, therefore, their CR.

[Jowgen]

Yeah, since the swarms are the product of spell slots from the "assassin", the encounter is with the assassin, not with the assassin's spell slots. Creatures summoned by another creature are (always AFAIK) treated as a part of the base creature's Challenge. What is the "assassin"? You should start there and then consider ad-hoc adjustments.

EDIT: Also, I'm not familiar with the hive mind template - what's "LoT"? How is it applied to the summoned swarm?
If the swarm is a spell effect why are we calculating the CR of the swarm? The encounter is the spellcaster who is summoning these swarms. [...] So whatever level spellcaster is required to summon this particular swarm = CR.

My decision for basing the CR of the encounter on the Swarm rather than the summoner came from how originally the encounter was to actually be done via a resetting trap of Summon Swarm, but between adding hivemind and the surrender idea I decided to make it a creature instead, which makes it easier in some regards but harder in others.

I know that technically its to be the summoner that's the CR base, but there is no difference in encounter whether I send out a 1st level Warlock with the invocation or a 20th level wizard. The Swarm stays the same and the summoner surrenders immediately upon being discovered and threatened.

Also, Hivemind is from the Leaflets of Triel, a semi-offical 3.5 update to BoVD included in some digital copies. Hivemind exists to reconcile the Dark Speech rules with the introduction of the Swarm subtype in 3.5, as otherwise you'd get ridiculously powerful Swarms. As Dark Speech's Power application can be used as a verbal component during casting to increase CL, I've ruled that its just as feasible to use the Dark Unity application to hivemind summoned swarms.

Which makes me realize that I completely blanked on Dark Speech adding a mandatory verbal component to the summoning. :smallsigh:

Plus side, just had a brain wave to sort the entire detection issue: the Conceal Spellcasting use of Sleight of Hand from races of stone. It'll simply boil down to an opposed check between the summoner and PC, determining if there's a surprise round or not.


Note you cannot cast a summon during a surprise round at all normally. Summons are a one round action cast time so they take a full round action to start casting. You would need the Rapid Spell metamagic feat or a UA Conjurer variant to cast the summon in a surprise round. Wizard would be mandated (and thus you would need to deal with listen checks).

There's also be the Cunning Ambush teamwork benefit, which the summoner could easily employ if he's got a familiar. Either case though, I've more or less handwaved this point since there's no shortage of ways around it.


Also given the encounter EXP should be awarded for running away. Anything short of an optimized to the Nine Hells and back 6th level character will be destroyed by this, especially if killing it just spawns in another (at which point it is an encounter vs the summoner, not the summons, and the encounter level is likely much higher). Since escaping is a viable solution considering lowering the exp gain if they take that route.

Agreed, the goal is to survive rather than beat the summoner, so exp is awarded either case. Hence the inclusion of grease to hinder movement, Murder of Crows to potentially blind and thus further slow/inhibit, and the distraction of course. Simply getting out of there is roughly as difficult as beating the swarm and finding the caster. Resolving by finding the summoner doesn't net extra exp, but rewards in terms of information and potential treasure.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the Conceal Spellcasting.

[HouseRules]

A lone PC foolish enough to split from the party walks down an alley, when he is best upon by a Murder of Crows (ToM). This Murder has been Hiveminded, per the LoT hivemind creature template; giving it a few 1st level spells and making half of its Swarm damage vile damage.

Murder of Crows = Base CR 4
Hivemind = +1 CR
1st Level Spells = +(1/2) CR, because added to CR 5, or +1 if added to CR 4.
Vile Damage +1 CR

The order in which you add the abilities affect the CR! If you add the 1st level spells before the hivemind template, then +1, else +0.

Overall CR: Strong 6, or week 7.
Encounter Level 7 or 8.
This is an example of an encounter where it makes sense to give experience by Encounter Level instead of Challenge Rating.
Why? You have unlimited CR 6 or 7 could give unlimited experience using the experience per creature (in this case swarm).

[Mr Adventurer]

In the case of the Spell Trap, wouldn't you use the Spell Trap CR calculation? (Unless that calculation says "if summoning a creature, use it's CR", I dunno.)

In the case of a Dark Speech summoner using the Summon Swarm spell, won't they have to stop concentration on the spell in order to use the Hivemind function of Dark Speech?

[Jowgen]

In the case of the Spell Trap, wouldn't you use the Spell Trap CR calculation? (Unless that calculation says "if summoning a creature, use it's CR", I dunno.)

In the case of a Dark Speech summoner using the Summon Swarm spell, won't they have to stop concentration on the spell in order to use the Hivemind function of Dark Speech?

No idea how the trap CR would work, I abandoned that idea early after realizing I don't want repeating spell traps of summon X to become a thing.

The RAW is non-existent on how to handle this, as Dark Speech's unity function was badly defined even before 3.5 added the Swarm subtype (the EE and FC reprintings did NOTHING to remedy this), and the LoT only brought a semblance of sanitity to the whole shabbang with the template.

So I went with the pre-existing example of the other Dark Speech uses. They respecitively are standard, full-round and non-action/part-of-other-action; out of which the most similar to this scenario is Power, wherein it becomes part of forming the verbal components of the spell. So handling the Dark Unity use for Summons the same seemed the most sensible.

[Elkad]

I specifically allow flying creatures to be summoned in the air. And similar cases. Swimming in water, earthgliding in the wall, etc.
If the creature can move freely in the medium (or at least not fall), it's legal.

Not quite RAW. Rational though.

If I drop you a couple thousand feet, you should be able to summon a hippogriff to save yourself (with an easyish concentration check for high winds). 600ft the first round (while you cast), 1000'/rnd on subsequent rounds. It'll probably take it a round to grab you and pull up.
So summoning crows/wasps/whatever in the air is rules-legal at my table.


I can't see this being a significant challenge to any PC past L5. A couple burning hands takes care of it. Or just waving your sword around. Doesn't matter if you are blind and on the ground, as long as you don't chain-fail the nausea checks, you'll win, the damage just isn't that significant.

[Mr Adventurer]

No idea how the trap CR would work, I abandoned that idea early after realizing I don't want repeating spell traps of summon X to become a thing.

The RAW is non-existent on how to handle this, as Dark Speech's unity function was badly defined even before 3.5 added the Swarm subtype (the EE and FC reprintings did NOTHING to remedy this), and the LoT only brought a semblance of sanitity to the whole shabbang with the template.

So I went with the pre-existing example of the other Dark Speech uses. They respecitively are standard, full-round and non-action/part-of-other-action; out of which the most similar to this scenario is Power, wherein it becomes part of forming the verbal components of the spell. So handling the Dark Unity use for Summons the same seemed the most sensible.

I see where you are coming from, but I don't agree that the closest comparable use of Dark Speech is the Power use. I'm puzzled how you arrived at that conclusion, actually.

I only have the write-ups for Dark Speech in BoVD and FC1 to go on, but Dark Unity is something you do to a swarm, not something you do as part of summoning. This use would therefore be more akin to the Corruption use (use on something that already exists) or Dread use (use on creatures). IMO.

EDIT: I googled the Leaflets of Triel, and if we're looking at the same document then calling them "semi-official" is a misrepresentation: they're literally labelled 'unofficial' on their pages.

[Jowgen]

I see where you are coming from, but I don't agree that the closest comparable use of Dark Speech is the Power use. I'm puzzled how you arrived at that conclusion, actually.

I only have the write-ups for Dark Speech in BoVD and FC1 to go on, but Dark Unity is something you do to a swarm, not something you do as part of summoning. This use would therefore be more akin to the Corruption use (use on something that already exists) or Dread use (use on creatures). IMO.

EDIT: I googled the Leaflets of Triel, and if we're looking at the same document then calling them "semi-official" is a misrepresentation: they're literally labelled 'unofficial' on their pages.

My reasoning was simply that the intended use was to alter a spell effect using dark speech, so the mechanics ought to follow the same rules as the existing dark speech use that does it, just that the summon isn't boosted in CL but via the template application. Also brings this use of Dark Speech in line with other feats like Greenbound Summoning. I think it's no less reasonable a way to arrive at a ruling than any other.

I personally grade the Leaflet content at about the same level of officiality as that Shadowcaster fix that class' author posted, since Monte Cook came up with most of it, incl. the template afaik (if anyone happened to have a web archive link to the original post I'd appreciate it). A bit higher actually, since without them that feature of the feat is genuinely game breaking post 3.5 update. Refusing to use the Leaflets and discarding that use of the feat would thus run foul of the all important Rule of Cool, in my book.

[ZamielVanWeber]

If the murder is a once and done, the summoner summons and beats feat while letting the crows do the dirty work, I would just ignore the spellcaster for CR purposes and leave it at CR 6 (crows, vile, ambush). If the summoner re-summons then calculate the encounter against the caster.

[Mr Adventurer]

My reasoning was simply that the intended use was to alter a spell effect using dark speech, so the mechanics ought to follow the same rules as the existing dark speech use that does it, just that the summon isn't boosted in CL but via the template application. Also brings this use of Dark Speech in line with other feats like Greenbound Summoning. I think it's no less reasonable a way to arrive at a ruling than any other.

I don't understand the logic here. The Unity use is to use on swarms. The spell effect of Summon Swarm is a swarm. So you have to have manifested the effect before you can Unity it. There's nothing about the Unity description which is about spells or spell effects or altering magic.

TBH what you've written sounds like "I wanted it to be this way", which, fine. But let's not argue over logic in that case.


I personally grade the Leaflet content at about the same level of officiality as that Shadowcaster fix that class' author posted, since Monte Cook came up with most of it, incl. the template afaik (if anyone happened to have a web archive link to the original post I'd appreciate it). A bit higher actually, since without them that feature of the feat is genuinely game breaking post 3.5 update. Refusing to use the Leaflets and discarding that use of the feat would thus run foul of the all important Rule of Cool, in my book.

I'm not proposing you don't fix Dark Speech. LoT, at least the one I'm looking at, seems as good a house rule as any other.

I say "at least the one I'm looking at" because your OP references the Hivemind template as being from there; but it doesn't appear in the PDF I have. Am I looking at the wrong thing? EDIT: do you just mean the nerf regarding creature numbers? Makes sense.