[3.5] Fatemaker vs Ebonmar Infiltrator

[noce]

These two classes are quite similar.
Both get sneak attack, have limited spellcasting with own list, and both fit the skillmonkey role with 6+INT and good skill list.
As it is often true for PrCs with own spell list, these two classes are not great, but they seem quite enjoyable to play.

Since they're so similar, I'll going to list the most notable differences:

Fatemaker requires 1 weak feat, Infiltrator requires 2
Fatemaker has CHA based spontaneous casting, Infiltrator is INT based prepared
Fatemaker has high WILL save
Fatemaker skill list includes Concentration, all Knowledges, Spellcraft, UMD; Infiltrator has Disable Device and Open Lock
Fatemaker gives +3 CHA, big bonus to two rolls/day, small bonus aura to allies; Infiltrator gives bonuses to skills, initiative, AC, reflexes, Uncanny Dodge, Hide in Plain Sight
Fatemaker capstone is Righteous Might, Infiltrator's one is Ethereal Jaunt
Fatemaker spell list includes Haste, Infiltrator's one has quite a few gems like Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door and Greater Invisibility


That's it.
To me the real difference here is CHA-based with all Knowledges vs INT-based with no Knowledge.

On a skillmonkey, Knowledge Devotion is often a good pick in order to dish out more damage more reliably.
In this case, though, it's quite difficult to exploit that feat on the CHA-based Fatemaker, while an Infiltrator should take another feat (i.e. Education) in addition to the 2 requirement feats.

Talking about entries, I'd enter Fatemaker as a Paladin 4 / Marshal 1 (which also gives you the prereq feat), and for Infiltrator either Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 or (Invisible Fist Carmendine) Monk 2 / Swashbuckler 3.

What do you think about these two classes? Which one do you think is better crunch-wise? Which concept do you prefer? Do you have different entry suggestions?

[Zaq]

Having participated in the fatemaker round of Iron Chef, I feel pretty strongly that the class is remarkably undertuned. Basically everything it gets would be way more appropriate if you didn’t have to enter at ECL 6+; it feels like a janky Dragon Mag base class that got turned into a PrC for some reason. So the idea of choosing it over something else (if it weren’t a secret ingredient) is pretty weird to me.

That said, your description of the alternative also sounds pretty disappointing. Is there something in particular you actively like about either class, especially in comparison to, like, spellthief or bard?

I do recommend looking at the Iron Chef round (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550203-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCI&p=22893369&viewfull=1) in which we cooked with fatemaker, assuming you haven’t already. It was a remarkably good round. All of the entries had something cool and different about them.

I confess I like the fluff on fatemaker. I’m a sucker for planar faction lore, and I’m actually playing a member of the Fated in a real-life campaign (though not a fatemaker, ugh). The Taker mentality has helped me get into the mindset of a CE sky pirate captain quite well (no, not all Takers are chaotic or evil, but the one I’m playing is), and I’m loving it. So consider that if you have any feelings about the WotC-approved fluff.

[bean illus]

... both fit the skillmonkey role with 6+INT and good skill list.
; Infiltrator gives bonuses to skills, initiative, AC, reflexes, Uncanny Dodge, Hide in Plain Sight.
Infiltrator's one has quite a few gems like Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door and Greater Invisibility

That's it.
To me the real difference here is CHA-based with all Knowledges vs INT-based with no Knowledge.

On a skillmonkey, Knowledge Devotion is often a good pick ... while an Infiltrator should take another feat (i.e. Education) in addition to the 2 requirement feats.

... Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 or (Invisible Fist Carmendine) Monk 2 / Swashbuckler 3.

Do you have different entry suggestions?

Sounds like your interested in skill monkey?

HiPS + initiative + invisible fist + etc sounds cool on an int based character. Perhaps trade rogue 2 and 1 bab for ...
rogue 1/cloistered cleric 1/swash 3
Pick up know devotion, utility spells, luck domain, healing, etc, at very little cost.

[noce]

Is there something in particular you actively like about either class, especially in comparison to, like, spellthief or bard?

Since I actively hate bard (for every reason a man can have and in every way a man can hate a character class), I'd leave it out of the discussion, if you don't mind.

I'm looking for a skillmonkey that can accomplish its role well enough, with a bit of spellcasting to render its playing less boring.
On one hand, I've seen a Spelltheif in play and, well, it was disappointing. A monk with a wand and cross-class UMD could contribute more. So I'm definitely looking for a build that can contribute.
On the other hand, though, I'm trying to avoid full caster level of power; I'd like to sit at about rogue power level.

Both the PrCs I compared seem competent at their job, the Fatemaker heading more towards social interactions while the Infiltrator more towards scouting and spying.
Both have casting to spice them up, and both can be entered in enough ways to build something that feels quite different from an ordinary thief.

For example, the entry I listed for the Ebonmar Infiltrator has the flavor of a ninja of sorts, and I suppose is not excellent but at least competent both in and outside combat.
The Fatemaker build, similarly, could be seen like a sort of skillful avenger (especially if CG Paladin).

Basically, these PrCs don't seem stronger than a rogue, but they feel like a different take at rougish stuff, and I particularly like this.
Also, I appreciate PrCs that grant you little casting, more for the added fluff than for the added crunch.

EDIT: just to clarify, I'm not looking for a PrC, I'm rather looking for your opinions about the two PrCs in the title.

[Glimbur]

Beguiler sounds like what you want except it is too powerful. So, mix in some rogue for sneak attack and to reduce it to partial caster.

Alternately, be an Incarnate from Magic of Incarnum. Lots of floating skill bonuses, and other magic-y tricks. It's a new system to learn and there are not that many powerful choices but it's an idea.

Or just be a ninja. Rogue like and sorta magic. Not as powerful but what can you do?

[Mr Adventurer]

I've always thought Ebonmar was an excellent class; basically "Rogue plus" along with access to magic tricks as spells, rather than as fixed SLAs as prestige classes usually do.

[Troacctid]

Of the two, I prefer fatemaker because I value social skills above thief skills. I enjoy playing deceptive characters. That said, my list for prestige classes in this vein would be a lot longer than just those two:

* = Spell-less

Assassin
Avenger
Cabinet Trickster*
Cancer Mage*
Chameleon
Charlatan*
Child of Khyber*
Disciple of Baalzebul*
Disciple of Mephistopheles*
Dragonmark Heir*
Dungeon Delver*
Ebonmar Infiltrator
Elocater
Exemplar
Eye of Xanathar*
Fatemaker
Halfling Whistler
Jaunter*
Jobber*
Life Eater*
Magic Filcher
Master of Masks*
Master of the South Wind
Mole*
Mountebank*
Paragnostic Initiate*
Psibond Agent*
Psionic Assassin
Scorpion Heritor*
Shade Hunter
Shadowbane Stalker
Slayer of Domiel
Squire of Legend
Telflammar Shadowlord
Temple Raider
Trapsmith
Twisted Lord*
Umbral Disciple*
Unseen Seer
Urban Savant
Vigilante
Watch Detective*

[Zaq]

Honestly I think you'd have the most fun with a plain psychic rogue. Fatemaker is basically just a worse spellthief.

If your primary concern with either is the skill list, do recall that feats (including, but not limited to, Education and Able Learner) can make PrC skill lists broader than they initially seem.