Elven Accuracy and Critical Hits

[Expected]

So I've decided to roll an Arcane Trickster Rogue wielding a dagger and a longbow who will take Elven Accuracy (17 Dex + 1), Sharpshooter, and Skulker. My question is just how much DPR does crit fishing with triple advantage (BA Hide + Attack, and then Haste + Hold Action + Hide every other turn) add to the Rogue. How does it compare to GWM + PAM + Sentinel Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians as well as Sorlocks and Bladelocks?

[RickAllison]

Yay, statistics! For some brief guidelines, you can calculate the probabilities with advantage by taking one minus the square (or cube with Lucky or EA) of the probability that you WON’T get the result. So the probability of a critical hit is 1-0.95 for normal, 1-0.95^2 for advantage, and 1-0.95^3 for EA.

The non-critical portion of the attack is harder. You need to select the probability of hitting which is dependent on your attack bonus and the monster’s AC. Then you can apply the same formula as above with the new probability of failure taking the 0.95, then subtract the probability you got for it being a crit. Now we have the probability of critting and of hitting.

Now we find the expected value. Multiply the probability of hitting and critting by the average value of the damage roll. Your modifiers plus probably however many d6s you are rolling which have an average of 3.5. Barring getting opportunity attacks or something, this is your DPR.

[Gignere]

So I've decided to roll an Arcane Trickster Rogue wielding a dagger and a longbow who will take Elven Accuracy (17 Dex + 1), Sharpshooter, and Skulker. My question is just how much DPR does crit fishing with triple advantage (BA Hide + Attack, and then Haste + Hold Action + Hide every other turn) add to the Rogue. How does it compare to GWM + PAM + Sentinel Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians as well as Sorlocks and Bladelocks?

SS is actually not very good for DPR for rogues. Especially a crit fishing rogue because the SS damage is not multiplied so you’re always looking at a flat + 10 damage.

You’re probably better off focusing on using booming blade with your one attack. But this means you’re not a range attacker though.

[Crgaston]

SS is actually not very good for DPR for rogues. Especially a crit fishing rogue because the SS damage is not multiplied so you’re always looking at a flat + 10 damage.

You’re probably better off focusing on using booming blade with your one attack. But this means you’re not a range attacker though.

It can be great if you're not using the -5/+10 part. Ignoring cover and range penalties can be quite good on their own, depending on your DM's encounter building habits.

[BarneyBent]

SS is actually not very good for DPR for rogues. Especially a crit fishing rogue because the SS damage is not multiplied so you’re always looking at a flat + 10 damage.

You’re probably better off focusing on using booming blade with your one attack. But this means you’re not a range attacker though.

Sharpshooter CAN be good for avoiding the cover penalties to ranged attacks. But yes, the -5/+10 is generally not worth it for a Rogue. Elven Accuracy does offset the -5 pretty handily though, so it might still be a net gain when attacking with advantage against all but the highest AC opponents. Other feats probably give more though overall.

[Gignere]

It can be great if you're not using the -5/+10 part. Ignoring cover and range penalties can be quite good on their own, depending on your DM's encounter building habits.

He’s rolling with triple advantage so cover penalties shouldn’t be an issue, and I never played a game where range penalties mattered in any encounter.

[Eriol]

There is an absolutely FANTASTIC Damage Per Round calculator linked on this very forum! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0)

It links to a google docs sheet that is just... well it'll give you exactly what you're looking for. You can calc with/without all the feats you asked about, different AC, advantage/not, etc. Just make a copy of the sheet, and enter in your data. Graphs and everything.

[Crgaston]

He’s rolling with triple advantage so cover penalties shouldn’t be an issue, and I never played a game where range penalties mattered in any encounter.

If cover penalties aren't an issue because of the EA, then the -5 from SS when enemies aren't in cover shouldn't either.

RE: range, as I said, it's DM dependent. I see you're suggesting OP forego the bow altogether and switch to melee, so it makes sense for what is obviously your play style.

We do a lot of outdoor exploration so the opportunity for long-range encounters is significant. You can also plan ambushes more effectively, or hover far above the battlefield on a flying carpet, or be riding a flying mount.

It also frequently matters in the case of weapons like the hand crossbow or sling. Of course the OP is using a longbow, so less likely.

[Expected]

There is an absolutely FANTASTIC Damage Per Round calculator linked on this very forum! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0)

It links to a google docs sheet that is just... well it'll give you exactly what you're looking for. You can calc with/without all the feats you asked about, different AC, advantage/not, etc. Just make a copy of the sheet, and enter in your data. Graphs and everything.

Wow! Thank you so much for the link! And thank you, RickAllison, for the detailed explanation of how to calculate it!

I could not take Sharpshooter and instead be frontlining with a dagger and shield but in that case, I'd like to take Sentinel and War Caster for offturn Sneak Attacks. I just want to make full use of Elven Accuracy and that is easy with Hide + Attack but in melee I'd need to rely on a familiar, mage hand, or my party to provide advantage (hiding in melee is unrealistic and I can get easy advantage once I get Greater Invisibility, if I ever do). I'm dipping into Fighter for Archery or Defense+shield and I'd rather not reduce my SA dice unless it is worthwhile. How can I ensure offturn Sneak Attacks and reliably attacking with advantage?

[Crgaston]

Wow! Thank you so much for the link! And thank you, RickAllison, for the detailed explanation of how to calculate it!

I could not take Sharpshooter and instead be frontlining with a dagger and shield but in that case, I'd like to take Sentinel and War Caster for offturn Sneak Attacks. I just want to make full use of Elven Accuracy and that is easy with Hide + Attack but in melee I'd need to rely on a familiar, mage hand, or my party to provide advantage (hiding in melee is unrealistic and I can get easy advantage once I get Greater Invisibility, if I ever do). I'm dipping into Fighter for Archery or Defense+shield and I'd rather not reduce my SA dice unless it is worthwhile. How can I ensure offturn Sneak Attacks and reliably attacking with advantage?

Although it will eat into your SA dice, 2 levels of Fighter lets you Action Surge to Sneak Attack on one of your Actions and then Ready the Attack Action. 3 levels for Battlemaster with Riposte gets you an off-turn SA along with several other useful features.

[SVamp]

Wow! Thank you so much for the link! And thank you, RickAllison, for the detailed explanation of how to calculate it!

I could not take Sharpshooter and instead be frontlining with a dagger and shield but in that case, I'd like to take Sentinel and War Caster for offturn Sneak Attacks. I just want to make full use of Elven Accuracy and that is easy with Hide + Attack but in melee I'd need to rely on a familiar, mage hand, or my party to provide advantage (hiding in melee is unrealistic and I can get easy advantage once I get Greater Invisibility, if I ever do). I'm dipping into Fighter for Archery or Defense+shield and I'd rather not reduce my SA dice unless it is worthwhile. How can I ensure offturn Sneak Attacks and reliably attacking with advantage?

I’m particularly fond of wood elf gloomstalker 5/rogue X for a stealthy SS+Elven A build: You get a really good nova, and are considered invisible in dim light, so you’ll have advantage on all attacks if you set up properly/don’t engage in broad daylight. Also your first round 3 attacks and 2 attacks after make sharp shooter shine, and adding hunters mark on top improves your DPR further.

I don’t usually have a haste monkey with me, so I’m not sure, but I guess if you had one, you could use the haste action to do an attack action, still get your extra attack with it, and do a ready action until the next enemy attacks or something with your main action, allowing you to get 2x the sneak attack bonus per turn.

Lastly, ranger gives you healing spirit which is fantastic. And depending on ranger variant, extra damage vs “humanoids” could be good. Even with a more restrictive set, the bonus to initiative from gloom stalker is pretty good. Oh yeah and it gives you the archery fighting style too.

[Corran]

Wow! Thank you so much for the link! And thank you, RickAllison, for the detailed explanation of how to calculate it!

I could not take Sharpshooter and instead be frontlining with a dagger and shield but in that case, I'd like to take Sentinel and War Caster for offturn Sneak Attacks. I just want to make full use of Elven Accuracy and that is easy with Hide + Attack but in melee I'd need to rely on a familiar, mage hand, or my party to provide advantage (hiding in melee is unrealistic and I can get easy advantage once I get Greater Invisibility, if I ever do). I'm dipping into Fighter for Archery or Defense+shield and I'd rather not reduce my SA dice unless it is worthwhile. How can I ensure offturn Sneak Attacks and reliably attacking with advantage?
You can get advantage on reaction attacks either from having successfully been hidden (assuming that's possible) with your bonus action in the previous round or by using the familiar (probably by having it to take the ready action, if that's legal; though this puts your familiar in a precarious position). As for your main action, there are some ways you can go about it for a melee build. Shield master if you are using the old ruling, being a kobold and fighting next to an ally (which is a given if you plan on using sentinel), feinting maneuver (though it eats your sd, so it's not exacly reliable; but it's great for when you need to cancel disadvantage), or simply by getting extra attack (which is only 2 levels away from fighter 3, that gives you precision and riposte; personally I would not stop at fighter 5 though, I would go either up to 6 or 7, cause you get slippery mind too late and I would want resilient wisdom and then I would want to avoid the overlap). Having an extra attack is better than advantage (except when you want to cancel disadvantage), plus it opens up the possibility of donning a shield, which is crucial if you plan on getting sentinel (you need good AC to pull off a sentinel rogue). Or you can use you extra attack to attempt a shove and attack with your second attack with advantage (assuming the shove worked).

ps: The AT's level 15 hand feature has very bad action economy.

[Warlush]

Rogues have almost always got DPR in the bag. Cunning action + sneek attack= more damage than everyone who's spent all their resources. Also +10 damage is always awesome. Also if your DM isn't taking advantage of range and cover then you should teach them a leason by utilizing range and cover.

[Laserlight]

A rogue played properly (i.e. always qualifying for Sneak Attack, and getting Advantage wherever he can possibly do so), should not have to worry about whether his DPR is good enough. Your main job will be figuring out which of your fellow PCs can provide Advantage--eg by casting Faerie Fire, giving you Greater Invisibility, employing his Familiar, et cetera--and persuading them to do so.

[Cikomyr]

Standard person gets a crit on advantage 9.75% of the time.

Champion (crit 19-20) get a crit on advantage 19% of the time.

Elven Accuracy means you get a crit on advantage 14.26% of the time.

Elven Accuracy Champion increase these odds to 27.1%

[Protolisk]

Standard person gets a crit on advantage 9.75% of the time.

Champion (crit 19-20) get a crit on advantage 19% of the time.

Elven Accuracy means you get a crit on advantage 14.26% of the time.

Elven Accuracy Champion increase these odds to 27.1%

To round it out, standard person crits 5% of the time without advantage.

Champions (and Hexblades too I guess) crit 10% without advantage.

But Elven accuracy without advantage is still just 5% crit chance.

If you are looking for crits without a source of easy advantage, Champion/Hexblade is better for crit fishing, since it always applies. If you have a easy source, Elven Accuracy is better. Stacking them makes them even stronger.

But more attacks is also a way to get more crits. 1 attack per round without advantage or Champ/HB is a 5% chance. 2 attacks, a 9.75 chance for at least 1 crit, with 0.25% for 2. 3 attacks, 14.26% for one, bigger chance for 2, slight chance for three. And so on and so forth.

So max out your attacks, take Champion or Hexblade, and get Elven Accuracy, and watch the crits fly.

[Keravath]

I’m particularly fond of wood elf gloomstalker 5/rogue X for a stealthy SS+Elven A build: You get a really good nova, and are considered invisible in dim light, so you’ll have advantage on all attacks if you set up properly/don’t engage in broad daylight. Also your first round 3 attacks and 2 attacks after make sharp shooter shine, and adding hunters mark on top improves your DPR further.

I don’t usually have a haste monkey with me, so I’m not sure, but I guess if you had one, you could use the haste action to do an attack action, still get your extra attack with it, and do a ready action until the next enemy attacks or something with your main action, allowing you to get 2x the sneak attack bonus per turn.

Lastly, ranger gives you healing spirit which is fantastic. And depending on ranger variant, extra damage vs “humanoids” could be good. Even with a more restrictive set, the bonus to initiative from gloom stalker is pretty good. Oh yeah and it gives you the archery fighting style too.

Just a clarification.

A gloomstalker is NOT invisible in dim light. They are considered invisible in complete darkness IF the opponent is using darkvision to see them. This makes the gloomstalker ability a little less overwhelming since you need to be fighting in complete darkness against folks using darkvision (or who can't see in the dark though you would have advantage in that case anyway).

Also, Haste only grants ONE attack extra, you don't get extra attack on an attack action from the haste spell. In addition, a readied attack also only allows for one attack so the haste/readied action approach to obtain two sneak attacks in a round actually works best for rogues with one attack/attack action ... other combinations lose the ability to use extra attack.