Specializing in magic missile? (Epic levels)

[Voidstar01]

I'm rolling up a backup character for an ECL 21 game, I've decided on a Wizard x/Force missile mage 5/ potential other class x.

I've calculated that with my 7 missiles per cast, I can use quicken spell and fell drain on 2 magic missile to bestow 14 negative levels a turn for the cost of a 2nd and 3rd level spellslot (after reduction by arcane thesis). My questions are:

1. is it worth it to become an evocation specialist (using the variant elemental affinity feature in conjunction with my elemental missile feature lets me cheese out an extra spell level)

2. Are there any other feats that reward specialization in the same vein as arcane thesis?

3. What other feats synergise with an idea like this? (i'm a first time caster player so general caster goodstuff is welcome)

4. Are there any other PrCs that synergise (I know about argent savant)

5. does any race stand out as particularly well suited for this? (some sort of weird playable force-elemental or something? Note LA buyoff isn't allowed)

[Biggus]

I'd check your DM agrees with your interpretation of how Fell Drain interacts with Magic Missile. The wording of Fell Drain is "any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level", which suggests to me that you could give 2 negative levels to 7 different creatures, but if you fired all the missiles at one creature, it'd still only get 2 negative levels.

As for feats, apply Twin Spell to both of them for another 14 missiles per round.

[Voidstar01]

I'd check your DM agrees with your interpretation of how Fell Drain interacts with Magic Missile. The wording of Fell Drain is "any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level", which suggests to me that you could give 2 negative levels to 7 different creatures, but if you fired all the missiles at one creature, it'd still only get 2 negative levels.


The fact that argent savant needs to specify that force armor treats magic missile as a single instance of damage leads me to believe that such isn't normally the case. I'm fairly certain my DM will go with the more permissive ruling because he's already allowed things like the dark chaos shuffle.

either way, is the Soul eater PrC my least obstructive way to achieve an innate energy drain ability, because a quick way to optimize for either ruling seems to be to take the improved energy drain and life drain from libris mortus. Also thanks for suggesting twin spell.

EDIT: also the main antagonist was in epic levels as a fetus, so y'know...

[Ruethgar]

The race that pops to mind are the Deep Imaskari for their ability to recall a 1st level spell. Do note that most metamagic does not change spell level(Heighten and its derivatives, Sanctum, and War being the only ways I know of) so a Twin Repeat Magic Missile is still a first level spell.

Edit: damn urls on mobile http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b

Along those same lines, Mnemonic Enhancer might be a very nice spell choice.

[Oberron]

Well if your sure you can pull off fell drain for each missile might as well go for reserves of strength feat and ignore damage cap of dice entirely. Also for things immune to drain go for energy admixture for magic missile since you are already going fmm. Also the Dragonlance war mage prc can give you up to +3 damage per die as well.

And depending the amount of cheese granted you can switch out wizard for sorcerer grabbing arcane fusion + sanctum spell feat for unlimited damage.

For race dragon wrought desert kobold that is venerable age for +3 to all mental stats.

Can also go tainted sorcerer/scholar route and use tainted metamagic, there is a ritual in savage species I think that gives you the evil alignment so then you are immune to negative effects of taint.

Edit:ment sanctum spell not sanctuary

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Personally, I'd build a psionic character with the Magic mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), and boost my manifester level as high as it can get. Take Reserves of Strength to break damage caps, and get access to magic missile and force missiles through a StP erudite minion with psychic chirurgery and a few thought bottles (nested (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes)) to save on XP costs.

Having supernatural psionics means no SR or PR, no Concentration checks needed when manifesting, no power fizzling, and no AoOs. It'd also let me multiclass and not lose out on manifester levels. And since a single-level dip in a manifesting class gets ML 21+ immediately, and it's entirely possible to stack manifester levels (via a psionic spellthief dip and a psionic version of Master Spellthief, among other things), getting lots of power points to manifest with would be easy enough.

[Voidstar01]

Personally, I'd build a psionic character with the Magic mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), and boost my manifester level as high as it can get. Take Reserves of Strength to break damage caps, and get access to magic missile and force missiles through a StP erudite minion with psychic chirurgery and a few thought bottles to save on XP costs.


right so a think that'd be awful as a magic missile specialist, because magic missile stops scaling after caster level 9, like at all, so the lack of ability to use fell drain kills the spells actual usefulness. the force missile mage is what grants 2 extra missiles, it's also the only thing stopping a single casting of shield from putting my damage per turn to zero. Without FMM i'm capped at an average of 15 damage per cast, 0 if they have a 1st level spell.FMM also automatically stills all magic missiles I cast for no cost so AoO aren't a concern. Your build sounds less like a magic missile specialist and more like a psionic character that happens to have magic missile. Also while thought bottle shenanigans would be allowed, the rule on stuff like that is that you have to actually do it in game, so I could only do that after already being a being a level 21.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

right so a think that'd be awful as a magic missile specialist, because magic missile stops scaling after caster level 9, like at all, so the lack of ability to use fell drain kills the spells actual usefulness. the force missile mage is what grants 2 extra missiles, it's also the only thing stopping a single casting of shield from putting my damage per turn to zero. Without FMM i'm capped at an average of 15 damage per cast, 0 if they have a 1st level spell.FMM also automatically stills all magic missiles I cast for no cost so AoO aren't a concern. Your build sounds less like a magic missile specialist and more like a psionic character that happens to have magic missile. Also while thought bottle shenanigans would be allowed, the rule on stuff like that is that you have to actually do it in game, so I could only do that after already being a being a level 21.You did read the part where I mentioned Reserves of Strength breaking the damage cap? ML 100 means, what, 50 missiles for a regular ol' magic missile spell? And that's with 1 power point, I think.

[Voidstar01]

You did read the part where I mentioned Reserves of Strength breaking the damage cap? ML 100 means, what, 50 missiles for a regular ol' magic missile spell? And that's with 1 power point, I think.

I missed the part where reserves of strength breaks all level restricted caps, as opposed to just damage dice and those listed. still feels more like a psion that just happens to have a magic missile thought, At ML 100 magic missile is still just as bad relative to everything else I could be could be doing as it is at level 20, why would this character cast magic missile in place of a ML 100 greater metamorphosis to become some disgusting epic level monstrosity, or create a level 100 astral construct, or any of the actually good powers it has access to? The point of a magic missile specialist is to make magic missile feel special relative to the rest of their kit. casting magic missile at a broken high level isn't special when everything you cast is the same broken high level.

[Oberron]

I missed the part where reserves of strength breaks all level restricted caps, as opposed to just damage dice and those listed. still feels more like a psion that just happens to have a magic missile thought, At ML 100 magic missile is still just as bad relative to everything else I could be could be doing as it is at level 20, why would this character cast magic missile in place of a ML 100 greater metamorphosis to become some disgusting epic level monstrosity, or create a level 100 astral construct, or any of the actually good powers it has access to? The point of a magic missile specialist is to make magic missile feel special relative to the rest of their kit. casting magic missile at a broken high level isn't special when everything you cast is the same broken high level.


It's your character. You decide that the character wants to cast magic missile instead of those other things.

[Voidstar01]

It's your character. You decide that the character wants to cast magic missile instead of those other things.

I know that, but you can say that about everything, at that point why wouldn't I play some broken cleric/RKV/sovereign speaker or something, and take the force domain and just say I'm specialized in magic missile? I can say I'm a specialized caster all I want, but if the build is just generally amazing, then i'm not.

EDIT: also I just realized that even a CL 2000000 magic missile still looses to shield

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go with a Wizard/Warmage/Ultimate Magus, with a level of Spellthief for Master Spellthief, specialized in evocation with Theurgic Specialist, and Reserves of Strength.

Master Spellthief adds your spellcaster levels in each class to determine your caster level for every class. Bonuses from UM and similar (orange prism ioun stone, ring of arcane might) get added to each class, and Theurgic Specialist totals your caster level in every class for the caster level of any evocation you cast.

Don’t forget Residual Magic, and you probably want to dip one level in every arcane spellcasting class you can squeeze in.

[Oberron]

I know that, but you can say that about everything, at that point why wouldn't I play some broken cleric/RKV/sovereign speaker or something, and take the force domain and just say I'm specialized in magic missile? I can say I'm a specialized caster all I want, but if the build is just generally amazing, then i'm not.

You're already asking about stuff and people are tossing suggestions to you. Your mechinacal build doesn't have to represent what/how your character acts or is fluffed as. Oots did this with the samurai paladins.

[Voidstar01]

You're already asking about stuff and people are tossing suggestions to you. Your mechinacal build doesn't have to represent what/how your character acts or is fluffed as. Oots did this with the samurai paladins.

I know and i'm sorry about the way i'm acting, it's just "Break magic, cast your favorite ****y spell" doesn't sound nearly as cool as "use your favorite ****y spell to inflict upwards of 30 negative levels per turn as an otherwise slightly below average wizard"

EDIT: also I have this weird flavor > function mentality that clashes horribly with any attempt I make at optimization. So it's my fault, not you wonderful people

[Oberron]

I know and i'm sorry about the way i'm acting, it's just "Break magic, cast your favorite ****y spell" doesn't sound nearly as cool as "use your favorite ****y spell to inflict upwards of 30 negative levels per turn as an otherwise slightly below average wizard"

EDIT: also I have this weird flavor > function mentality that clashes horribly with any attempt I make at optimization.

That's fine I'm similar.. what were your thoughts about what I posted about the sorcerer and such.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler 1/ Warmage 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 1/ Dread Necromancer 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Whatever 2

Specialized in evocation, with Theurgic Specialist, Master Spellthief, and Reserves of Strength.

You have Wizard 15 spellcasting, probably Beguiler 8 spellcasting, and five other classes at 1st level. Master Spellthief makes every one of those have a caster level of 28, and UM adds +4 to each for 32x7 classes.

When you cast any evocation spell, those are totaled for a caster level of 224, and Reserves of Strength adds one. That makes 113 magic missiles each time you cast it. Or a maximized fireball does 1,350 damage.

[Voidstar01]

That's fine I'm similar.. what were your thoughts about what I posted about the sorcerer and such.

I don't really get how it allows for infinite damage, like I said i'm fairly new to casters in general (also the small details that tend to make or break things often elude me). I looked at energy admixture, and honestly think I might go all the way for born to three thunders, adding save or suck onto auto-hit level drain sounds cool.

[Oberron]

I don't really get how it allows for infinite damage, like I said i'm fairly new to casters in general (also the small details that tend to make or break things often elude me). I looked at energy admixture, and honestly think I might go all the way for born to three thunders, adding save or suck onto auto-hit level drain sounds cool.

Sanctum spell reads "sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level."

The important part is casting outside of your sanctum to cast the spell as a lower spell level.

Arcane fusion: When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action. Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level.

If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion."


What you do is cast arcane fusion and you pick magic missile and arcane fusion as your spells but use sanctum spell to change the spell level of the chosen arcane fusion spell into a 4th lvl spell. You then rinse and repeat nesting sanctum spell arcane fusions into each cast for unlimited castings of magic missile.

[Silvercrys]

I don't really get how it allows for infinite damage, like I said i'm fairly new to casters in general (also the small details that tend to make or break things often elude me). I looked at energy admixture, and honestly think I might go all the way for born to three thunders, adding save or suck onto auto-hit level drain sounds cool.Taint isn't really "infinite", it's "arbitrarily large". Basically you can add your taint score to your caster level and taint is uncapped, so if you can get immunity to the effects of taint you can just let it accumulate until your caster level is over a million or whatever.

[Voidstar01]

What you do is cast arcane fusion and you pick magic missile and arcane fusion as your spells but use sanctum spell to change the spell level of the chosen arcane fusion spell into a 4th lvl spell. You then rinse and repeat nesting sanctum spell arcane fusions into each cast for unlimited castings of magic missile.

oh that's neat, for some reason I thought sanctum spell was referring to the spell sanctuary, which caused my confusion. I might not do it all the time but it's certainly something to keep in my back pocket for fighting the BBEG, cause that guy's so busted I wouldn't even feel bad.

[RNightstalker]

EDIT: also I just realized that even a CL 2000000 magic missile still looses to shield

I believe it's 3rd level FMM that can penetrate/ignore/shoot through shield spells.

Incantatrix wouldn't be a bad option to PrC into for Improved Metamagic, which reduces the metamagic costs...you get it at 10th but there's also an epic feat that reduces metamagic costs as well.

[Sutr]

Have you considered magic missiles big brother?

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20020809a