Damage Types

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Looking over all of the damage types, and trying to find things that are a bit more out there for types of damage.

Base weapons have:
Slashing
Bludgeoning
Piercing

Energy types are:
Fire
Cold
Acid
Sonic
Electricity

So what would negative energy/positive energy, radiant or force go under? Are they their own damage type specifically, or are they under the plethora of things that can fall under untyped damage?

Also is anyone able to give a cite for the description of "untyped damage" in a book somewhere? Like, when a player asks me what it is, what do I say other than "something that bypasses pretty much everything".

[Zombimode]

There are only two meaningful distinctions of damage types in 3.5: "weapon" damage, and "non-weapon" or "energy" damage.

These are not technical terms, as weapons can sometimes deal "non-weapon" damage, energy is sometimes used descriptively to mean "fire, cold, electricity or acid" (and sometimes sonic is regarded as "energy", sometimes not). The correct terms would be: "damage that is applicable for Damage Reduction", and "damage that is applicable for Resistance to Energy". There is no overlap.

"Untyped" damage is not a singular category (and thus a question regarding to what it represents can't be meaningfully stated). Instead, each source of "untyped" damage is actually it's own type of "energy" damage, and the use of "untyped" is just a shorthand. You could, theoretically, have Resistance to Damage-dealt-by-Reversed-Word-of-Nurturing 10.


Edit: and no, if an effect states its damage is done by Negative Energy it is precisely that and would accordingly interact with resistance/vulnerabilty/immunity to Negative Energy. But Negative Energy is not handled consistently in 3.5 as far as I can tell.
Force damage is Force damage.


The most obscure spelled out damage type (that I'm aware of) is City Damage.

[Biggus]

There's also Divine, Vile, Desiccation, Falling and Scalding damage.

[JNAProductions]

City damage exists, I think.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's also "elemental" damage. "Elemental" damage would be air (electricity, occasionally one of the physical damage types, due to detritus blowing around, and sometimes even sonic damage), earth (acid or one of the physical damage types, due to getting smacked with rocks), fire (fire, of course), and water (typically cold; sometimes one of the physical damage types due to either ice blocks/shards or high-speed water hitting with the force of concrete; and sometimes it deals cold or even fire damage from fog and steam).

[Bronk]

There was a somewhat recent thread that might help:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583896-How-many-damage-types-are-there&highlight=damage+type

[Uncle Pine]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411539-All-damage-types)'s an old list from another post:


normal types
blunt
piercing
slashing
ballistic (if allowed)

elements of magic
fire
sonic
acid
electricity
cold

Specialized nature damage
desiccation
Scalding
frostburn
Hellfire (demonic fire)
Celestial Lightning (a few Exalted spells, similar to frostburn and hellfire)

fundamental forces
positive
negative
force

Oddity
City
Backlash
Falling

faith or alignment
holy
unholy
profane
vile
divine
axiomatic
anarchic
sanctified
good

Special rules
Sanity damage
Taint
Ability damage
Turning damage (no damage is involved)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411539-All-damage-types)'s an old list from another post:"elements of magic"

Wait. Where's Friendship? Would that be sanity damage?

[Uncle Pine]

"elements of magic"

Wait. Where's Friendship? Would that be sanity damage?

I forgot to mention that the categories used in that post are quite... Imaginative. The actual names of the single damage types are good.

[liquidformat]

There are only two meaningful distinctions of damage types in 3.5: "weapon" damage, and "non-weapon" or "energy" damage.

These are not technical terms, as weapons can sometimes deal "non-weapon" damage, energy is sometimes used descriptively to mean "fire, cold, electricity or acid" (and sometimes sonic is regarded as "energy", sometimes not). The correct terms would be: "damage that is applicable for Damage Reduction", and "damage that is applicable for Resistance to Energy". There is no overlap.

"Untyped" damage is not a singular category (and thus a question regarding to what it represents can't be meaningfully stated). Instead, each source of "untyped" damage is actually it's own type of "energy" damage, and the use of "untyped" is just a shorthand. You could, theoretically, have Resistance to Damage-dealt-by-Reversed-Word-of-Nurturing 10.


Edit: and no, if an effect states its damage is done by Negative Energy it is precisely that and would accordingly interact with resistance/vulnerabilty/immunity to Negative Energy. But Negative Energy is not handled consistently in 3.5 as far as I can tell.
Force damage is Force damage.


The most obscure spelled out damage type (that I'm aware of) is City Damage.

yes and no, 'energy damage' is specifically called out as being fire, cold, electricity or acid; though this word is sometimes abused by WotC and accidentally used on sonic and force damage too because WotC isn't always amazing at being consistent. None the less it is very inaccurate and miss leading to try and claim that 'non-weapon' damage is the same as 'energy' damage as there are many damages that aren't weapon damage nor energy damage...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

yes and no, 'energy damage' is specifically called out as being fire, cold, electricity or acid; though this word is sometimes abused by WotC and accidentally used on sonic and force damage too because WotC isn't always amazing at being consistent. None the less it is very inaccurate and miss leading to try and claim that 'non-weapon' damage is the same as 'energy' damage as there are many damages that aren't weapon damage nor energy damage...Psionics explicitly uses sonic as an energy type, rather consistently.

[liquidformat]

Psionics explicitly uses sonic as an energy type, rather consistently.

Yep I am aware, hence the comment specifically about sonic and force. I believe at one point there was probably a faction at WotC to make sonic and to a lesser extent force RAW parts of the energy damage umbrella but it was never fully implemented. If you ask me the terrain books with things like desiccation and frostburn damage killed that drive as they now had so many untyped damages.

[ShurikVch]

If Magic of Incarnum is in play, then essentia damage too

If Reputation subsystem used, then reputation damage is possible

Also, I disagreeing with some of mentioned damage types:
Hellfire damage is, apparently, untyped
Vile isn't a type of damage - Vile Fireball still does fire damage; it's more like "nonlethal" damage - not a separate type
Holy and Unholy are look like the same type (what's the difference if Cleric who casts Flame Strike on your PC was Good or Evil?)
Divine, axiomatic, anarchic, sanctified, good - from where they are?

[liquidformat]

If [I]Divine, axiomatic, anarchic, sanctified, good - from where they are?

axiomatic and anarchic can be found in the DMG among other places; sanctified is from BoED, as far as divine and good I am not sure...

[ShurikVch]

axiomatic and anarchic can be found in the DMGOn which page?

sanctified is from BoEDOn which page?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Thank you for all the replies and help guys! I was out of internet for a few days here -- it's great to come back to answers lol. Thank you all for the clarification!!

[liquidformat]

On which page?
On which page?

AFB but the axiomatic and anarchic damage types just like holy and unholy are introduced in the weapon abilities sections and can also be found on a number of spells.

[ShurikVch]

AFB but the axiomatic and anarchic damage types just like holy and unholy are introduced in the weapon abilities sections and can also be found on a number of spells.You mean - that 2d6 in Anarchic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#anarchic) and Axiomatic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#axiomatic) weapons?
As I seen it, nothing in the RAW points to a separate new damage type - those 2d6 are either the same type as the basic weapon's damage, or - at most - untyped.
(Heck, Hellfire have more claim for a new damage type - RAW for Hellfire Engine includes words "hellfire damage")

[liquidformat]

You mean - that 2d6 in Anarchic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#anarchic) and Axiomatic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#axiomatic) weapons?
As I seen it, nothing in the RAW points to a separate new damage type - those 2d6 are either the same type as the basic weapon's damage, or - at most - untyped.
(Heck, Hellfire have more claim for a new damage type - RAW for Hellfire Engine includes words "hellfire damage")

Like I said I am AFB but they do eventually explicitly say that axiomatic and anarchic are damage types and I thought it might be in DMG but would have to do some diving to verify where they explicitly start stating it as such. If you look at holy/unholy damage they start out in similar light with some of the earlier references such as the SRD not explicitly calling them as such.

However, I see no RAW argument for the 2d6 damage being base weapon damage that is a completely unfounded argument. 'It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of chaotic alignment.' this statement alone makes it explicitly clear that it is in no way base weapon damage. I also think the weapon enhancements in and of themselves do a pretty good job of defining Anarchic, Axiomatic, Holy, and Unholy damage as types and they are all consistent with each other.

[Biggus]

Vile isn't a type of damage - Vile Fireball still does fire damage; it's more like "nonlethal" damage - not a separate type


The feats Vile Ki Strike, Vile Martial Strike and Vile Natural Attack all say that your attacks of those types do one point of vile damage, they don't say anything about it still being damage of the original type for purposes of damage reduction etc.

[frogglesmash]

I started a similar that a little while ago, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583896-How-many-damage-types-are-there) is the list We managed to compile.

[liquidformat]

I started a similar that a little while ago, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583896-How-many-damage-types-are-there) is the list We managed to compile.

Either way you guys for sure missed holy damage at the very least it is referenced in Sanctify Weapon and Holy Ki Strike; still haven't had the chance to dumpster dive for things like Anarchic and Axiomatic damage yet or sanctified.

[ShurikVch]

However, I see no RAW argument for the 2d6 damage being base weapon damage that is a completely unfounded argument. 'It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of chaotic alignment.' this statement alone makes it explicitly clear that it is in no way base weapon damage.And how it's different from 2d6 of, say, Bane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane) weapon?
Also: is extra damage from weapon enhancement bonus a separate type of damage for you too?


The feats Vile Ki Strike, Vile Martial Strike and Vile Natural Attack all say that your attacks of those types do one point of vile damage, they don't say anything about it still being damage of the original type for purposes of damage reduction etc.They don't need to say it because it's default - by the same reason templates aren't obliged to add "As base creature" for the all the things they don't change.

[Biggus]

They don't need to say it because it's default - by the same reason templates aren't obliged to add "As base creature" for the all the things they don't change.

In that case, why do they bother to specify that Violate Spell and Violate Spell-like Ability don't change the effect of energy resistance, since that would be default too?

[liquidformat]

And how it's different from 2d6 of, say, Bane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane) weapon?
Also: is extra damage from weapon enhancement bonus a separate type of damage for you too?

They don't need to say it because it's default - by the same reason templates aren't obliged to add "As base creature" for the all the things they don't change.

In order to get the behavior your insinuating you have to add extra words to the descriptive functionality of these abilities. They do not say anything such as deal 2d6 points of extra damage of the same type as the weapon because they are not. They are energy damage; hence why for Anarchic damage for example it says 'it deals 2d6 damage against all creatures with a chaotic alignment' and not 'it deals 2d6 damage against all creatures with a chaotic alignment unless the creature has damage reduction to weapon's damage type'. By this same logic, the 2d6 damage of bane does also ignore dr.

Enhancement bonuses are well enhancement bonuses they enhance the damage done not change it, the name is self evident of the functionality...

[Thurbane]

There is no evidence I have seen that the extra damage from Bane, Holy etc. is energy damage, or that it ignores DR.

Unless I see any evidence to the contrary, I can only assume damage is same as base weapon, in much the same manner that precision damage is.

[HouseRules]

Alignment Based Damage only cares about the alignment of the Target, but other than that, it is not any more special.

The Advanced Alignment Based Damage requires Sanctified Area and Healing Magic to heal.

Ability Drain is a separate damage type from Ability Damage.

[liquidformat]

There is no evidence I have seen that the extra damage from Bane, Holy etc. is energy damage, or that it ignores DR.

Unless I see any evidence to the contrary, I can only assume damage is same as base weapon, in much the same manner that precision damage is.

I have never seen any evidence that alignment based damage is stopped by anything except being of the same alignment as the damage. If what you are saying is true then you would have to choose a damage type for things like chaos hammer...

[Thurbane]

I have never seen any evidence that alignment based damage is stopped by anything except being of the same alignment as the damage. If what you are saying is true then you would have to choose a damage type for things like chaos hammer...

I think the crux of the argument is that I do not agree that the weapon properties are "alignment based damaged".

Holy, Unholy, Bane, Vicious etc. are just extra damage, not damage of any special type (at least IMHO), and not in the same category as spell effects like Chaos Hammer, Unholy Blight, the untyped half of Flame Strike etc.

Also, spell damage is in a whole different ballpark to begin with, and not subject to DR.


Damage Reduction
A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

[Asmotherion]

Looking over all of the damage types, and trying to find things that are a bit more out there for types of damage.

Base weapons have:
Slashing
Bludgeoning
Piercing

Energy types are:
Fire
Cold
Acid
Sonic
Electricity

So what would negative energy/positive energy, radiant or force go under? Are they their own damage type specifically, or are they under the plethora of things that can fall under untyped damage?

Also is anyone able to give a cite for the description of "untyped damage" in a book somewhere? Like, when a player asks me what it is, what do I say other than "something that bypasses pretty much everything".


Negative/Positive energy have distinct properties (healing/damaging living and undead and vice verca). You can be imune to those (via spells). They are treated as damage types; however depending on the target they may heal instead.

Force also has it's own ability in that it affects incorporeals. it's a distinct damage type. Force dragons are imune to it for example.

The above energy types do not interact with basic energy stuff (you can't get energy substitution: force for example). There is no explaination i'm aware of but just see it as a general unwritten rule of the nature of the elements "because magic".

Some damage types either fall under a broader damage type (lava damage to wich you are imune with even Fire Resistance 1).

Others can fall under untyped (could just as well have been) because nothing RAW interacts with them in any significant way: Nothing directly resists or is imune to scalding damage for example (at least that i'm aware of).

Untyped is a damage type (ironically) in that it interacts only with effects that "generally prevent damage" instead of a specific type of resistance or imunity.