Waxwork Factory

[Jack_Simth]

Ran across something amusing today:
The Dark Affinity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dark-affinity/) feat is a single feat that gives a spell-like ability with a caster level = character level.

This qualifies folks for crafting feats - including Craft Construct (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/craft-construct-item-creation/), if you take the prerequisite.

Sentient Waxwork Creatures (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/sentient-waxwork-cr-0/sentient-waxwork-cr-0-1/) have no defined feat selection - which, in theory, means you could craft them with whatever feats you like.

So a Sentient Waxwork creature with 10 hit dice (or more) and an Int of 10 (or more) could have feats of Skill Focus(Spellcraft), Dark Affinity, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, and Craft Construct, as well as 10 ranks in Spellcraft and 10 ranks in Craft(Sculpture).

A Waxwork Creature has a DC of 5 + HD + 5*(Missing requirements); as a waxwork creature can't cast either spell, we're looking at DC 15 + HD for a new waxwork creature.

With ten ranks or more in Spellcraft, Skill Focus gives a +6 bonus. Which means the waxwork creature, above (assuming it rolled 10 Int or better) would have a Spellcraft modifier of HD + 6 (+ Int). By taking ten, such a Waxwork Creature with 10+ Int could then make a DC of 16 + it's own Hit Dice. Which means it could craft a sentient Waxwork creature with one more hit dice than it has.

Which means you can have constructs that build constructs that build constructs, with each iteration becoming progressively stronger. And, of course, they can also make other things, like wondrous items or magic arms & armor, exactly the same way. Other things as well, as they get above 10 hit dice and have more available feats.

Yes, this is easier with a Trompe L'oeil or a few other methods. I just thought it was amusing.

[Eldaran]

Spell like abilities do not qualify you for crafting feats. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qp0)

[EldritchWeaver]

But Master Craftsman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman--) does.

[Jack_Simth]

But Master Craftsman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman--) does.

But not for Craft Construct, which is needed to get above quadratic production.

[Silvercrys]

But not for Craft Construct, which is needed to get above quadratic production.Technically yes.

However, there's a lot of context not delivered solely by the currently-standing FAQ entry. Basically they had it FAQ'd the other way (because, you know, that's how the rules have always actually worked since 3.5), then changed it around 4 years ago claiming they wanted to decouple SLA caster levels from allowing you to do literally anything so that they could print options so races with SLAs weren't the only way to, say, craft magic items and not be a caster.

Then they basically printed Master Craftsman, which is more of a "technically we did what we said we would do, but now you have way less options than you had before."

And then the Kineticist got hosed by the new FAQ as well, because they can't qualify for item creation feats or anything requiring a caster level either. Thanks Paizo.

Personally I'd either ignore the FAQ (Paizo doesn't support PF 1e anymore anyway) or allow Master Craftsman to work with at minimum Craft Construct.

This particular "exploit" still requires gold/materials and time as an input, anyway, unless I misunderstand. It just means that if your GM allows you to break wealth by level you can exploit your gold to create higher level constructs than you are.

[Feantar]

Did you just create a Von Neumann Golem? :smalleek:

[Jack_Simth]

Technically yes.

However, there's a lot of context not delivered solely by the currently-standing FAQ entry. Basically they had it FAQ'd the other way (because, you know, that's how the rules have always actually worked since 3.5), then changed it around 4 years ago claiming they wanted to decouple SLA caster levels from allowing you to do literally anything so that they could print options so races with SLAs weren't the only way to, say, craft magic items and not be a caster.

Then they basically printed Master Craftsman, which is more of a "technically we did what we said we would do, but now you have way less options than you had before."

And then the Kineticist got hosed by the new FAQ as well, because they can't qualify for item creation feats or anything requiring a caster level either. Thanks Paizo.

Personally I'd either ignore the FAQ (Paizo doesn't support PF 1e anymore anyway) or allow Master Craftsman to work with at minimum Craft Construct.

Explains the date on the FAQ entry.

Still, could do the leapfrog thing - would need to be something like a Trompe L'Oiel of the caster, though.


This particular "exploit" still requires gold/materials and time as an input, anyway, unless I misunderstand. It just means that if your GM allows you to break wealth by level you can exploit your gold to create higher level constructs than you are.

Yes, but I'd note that all of them have Craft. Which still takes a rather long time to make enough to craft another of their number (unless, of course, you can get folks buying the magic items they can also make at full market price). It was more of an amusing thought exercise, and also serves as a potential bit of background - where do all those for-sale magic items come from? Someone set this running a very long time ago in one area... what happens when the elf running it finally kicks the bucket, and the waxwork creatures no longer have anyone who can update their orders?

Edit: Oh yes, and you can create higher level constructs than you are regardless. If you have one of the required spells - perhaps you're a Cleric - then the DC for a 10 HD Waxwork creature is just 20. A Cleric-7 with Int-10 and max ranks in Spellcraft could make that by taking ten (Cleric-7 is also the earliest you could reasonably have all the feats, as a Cleric - Craft Wondrous at 3rd, Craft Magic Arms & Armor at 5th, Craft Construct at 7th). If you have both (Cleric-12, say), then a 20 HD waxwork is just DC 25. A Cleric-12 could absolutely make one. More resources invested into Spellcraft just makes it easier (higher Int, Skill Focus, traits, items, et cetera - each +1 you get to spellcraft adds +1 HD to the toughest Waxwork Creature you can make; a Cleric-7 with Int-14, Skill Focus(Spellcraft), and a +2 Trait bonus could take ten and make the DC for a 17 HD Waxwork creature).



Did you just create a Von Neumann Golem? :smalleek:
Basically. It'll be a while before you need to worry about it, though. It's got a really low reproductive cycle. That 10-HD "step 0 starter", making money via Craft, earns 10 gp/week (taking ten). To make enough money to make the 11 HD step 1 will take 550 weeks, or about 10.5 years (but it can keep doing that). The 11-HD "step 1", making money via Craft, earns 10.5 gp/week (taking ten): The 12 HD step-2 will take 572 weeks of using regular Craft before step 1 can start in on it (about 11 years).

Mind you: If folks commission items from them at full market price, that goes MUCH faster. If someone comissions a 12,000 gp market item from the step 0 waxwork, it has enough to make the 11 HD step-1 after just the 12 days of crafting to make the commissioned item. Depending on what the target end goal is for the setup, this could make buying magic items very evil....

Edit: Well, unless they stop and do things like buy masterwork tools (+1 GP/week, pays itself off in 50 weeks), or craft magical items that give bonuses to Craft.

[unseenmage]

I love this thread so very much.

Not sure if I want them as baddies or minions but I want them.

How's the math change if using the price by CR rules?

Trompe L'oeil, Alter Ego, and Artificial Intelligence are all Construct copies of player character class levels so they could all pull it off.

That said in a tech game a robot subtype version of a base unintelligent Waxwork would have Int from the Robot subtype without needing to be the Int Waxwork. iirc that is.

[Kris Moonhand]

Then they basically printed Master Craftsman, which is more of a "technically we did what we said we would do, but now you have way less options than you had before."

And then the Kineticist got hosed by the new FAQ as well, because they can't qualify for item creation feats or anything requiring a caster level either. Thanks Paizo.

A small correction. Kineticists do have one option, that being the Kinetic Crafting (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Kinetic%20Crafting) feat. It's essentially "Master Craftsman But Slightly Better: Kineticist Edition".

Also, it says Sentient Waxworks can gain levels in character classes. Why not just have them take Wizard levels or whatever?

[Psyren]

Most Waxwork creatures are mindless and thus can't gain feats. Sentient Waxworks can, but those are the ones that "developed minds of their own", and so you can't control them or choose the feats they get - they are NPCs, and thus get their feats like any other NPC.

(As a more general point, digging through a Horror book for stuff that characters can just make and control risk-free seems like quite the exercise in missing the point of horror to begin with.)

[unseenmage]

Most Waxwork creatures are mindless and thus can't gain feats. Sentient Waxworks can, but those are the ones that "developed minds of their own", and so you can't control them or choose the feats they get - they are NPCs, and thus get their feats like any other NPC.

(As a more general point, digging through a Horror book for stuff that characters can just make and control risk-free seems like quite the exercise in missing the point of horror to begin with.)

Making a horror book for a heroic fantasy game was the mistake imo. The point of horror is that the supernatural will get you. Eventually. Horror instills confusion in its audience which translates into fear.

Heroic fantasy is pretty opposing to that being a genre where the heroes will triumph using the supernatural. Eventually. Heroic fantasy instills accomplishment in its audience which translates into confidence.

That and waxworks making waxworks making waxworks is definitely horror game material. Controlled or not I'd watch that movie with a pillow clutched in hand ready to cover my eyes at a moments notice.

[Jack_Simth]

I love this thread so very much.

Not sure if I want them as baddies or minions but I want them.

How's the math change if using the price by CR rules?

"As a rough guideline, a construct’s price is equal to its challenge rating squared, then multiplied by 500 gp (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/#Pricing_a_New_Construct)": A 10 HD Waxwork creature is CR 6, so 18,000 gp market rather than 10,000 gp market for the starter. An 11 HD Waxwork creature is CR 7, so 24,500 gp market. 25 days of actual crafting, and that 10 gp/week means 1,225 weeks, or a little over 23.5 years.

Things speed up a bit if the first construct creates 1 HD workers for money-earning. With "by CR" guidelines, they cost 1,000 gp to craft (2,000 market), but an Int-10, 1-HD waxwork of something with, say, Skill Focus(Craft) and 1 rank in Craft earns 7 gp/week taking ten - pays for itself in 143 weeks. And then you end up with something that looks a lot like an insect colony - a bunch of workers gathering resources for the queen, who makes workers....



Trompe L'oeil, Alter Ego, and Artificial Intelligence are all Construct copies of player character class levels so they could all pull it off.

Both more easily and faster, yes. As I said: There's better ways to do it; I just found this route amusing.


That said in a tech game a robot subtype version of a base unintelligent Waxwork would have Int from the Robot subtype without needing to be the Int Waxwork. iirc that is.
Know where to find pricing on adding the Robot subtype to constructs that don't have it by default?


Most Waxwork creatures are mindless and thus can't gain feats. Sentient Waxworks can, but those are the ones that "developed minds of their own", and so you can't control them or choose the feats they get - they are NPCs, and thus get their feats like any other NPC.
That line I missed line does explain why there's no separate crafting note for the Sentient Waxworks. Ah well. Just means you need to go with one of the more efficient routes.


(As a more general point, digging through a Horror book for stuff that characters can just make and control risk-free seems like quite the exercise in missing the point of horror to begin with.)
Yes, because fluff is not mutable. Hmm. Something seems wrong with that statement.
Oh, I know: It has no place in a horror campaign! A factory that starts out as seeming a good thing for the community, but has people go randomly missing, only to eventually have it come to light that a guy who died over a hundred years ago set something in motion - believing it to be a good thing when he gave the orders - but the situation has changed and it no longer is... but constructs obey orders absolutely, so the fact that the orders no longer make any sense doesn't matter, and anyone who interferes must be removed. Hmm... no, that sounds like a fairly standard horror plot to me.

Also, it's not risk-free. Spells like Control Construct (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-construct/) and Apparent Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/apparent-master/) exist, constructs have very poor saves, and tend to be low on HP as well. They're a fragile investment. And you're going to have a bit of difficulty using them for much more than a dedicated wright to make crafting go faster - after all, you need to invest in three crafting feats just to get it started, so if you've got lots of time, you may as well just make the stuff yourself.

[Psyren]

Yes, because fluff is not mutable. Hmm. Something seems wrong with that statement.
*snip*

I'm talking about intent, not fluff. All these theory-op threads about Waxworks and Trompe L'oeils and the like miss the point that these creatures aren't there to give players access to easily craftable permanent simulacra of every monster in the game, they're there so the GM can mess with the players in a horror setting. Because messing with players is the point of horror.

Which is not to say that I would ban these creatures from being crafted, but I wouldn't let them be purely obedient automatons either. If you make horror creatures, you should expect some horror tropes, including your creations perhaps behaving in ways you don't expect them to and causing trouble for the party as a result.

[unseenmage]

I'm talking about intent, not fluff. All these theory-op threads about Waxworks and Trompe L'oeils and the like miss the point that these creatures aren't there to give players access to easily craftable permanent simulacra of every monster in the game, they're there so the GM can mess with the players in a horror setting. Because messing with players is the point of horror.

Which is not to say that I would ban these creatures from being crafted, but I wouldn't let them be purely obedient automatons either. If you make horror creatures, you should expect some horror tropes, including your creations perhaps behaving in ways you don't expect them to and causing trouble for the party as a result.

You absolutely should ban Trompe L'oeil. They're grotesquely underpriced and overpowered for PC access.
Which PCs have thanks to the pricing provided with the things.

As for building Pseudo Simulacrum we already have actual Sims so its not a big deal?


...
Know where to find pricing on adding the Robot subtype to constructs that don't have it by default?
...

IIRC that one can add the robot subtype to non robot Constructs was extrapolated from the wording in the subtype itself.
Also IIRC the pricing mimics clockwork and adding clockwork to non clockworks. Basically twice the price.

Am looking for old notes to get specifics now.


EDIT: My fellow players say this about robots
"It’s listed in the general descriptive text for robots (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/robot/). Since it mentions that the CR shouldn’t normally change, the price would remain the same as well."

And heres the last time we all chatted up Waxworks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514794-Craft-Construct-requires-CL-5-is-it-useful-at-that-level) and Construct goodness. One of my fav all time conversation threads to be honest.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm talking about intent, not fluff. All these theory-op threads about Waxworks and Trompe L'oeils and the like miss the point that these creatures aren't there to give players access to easily craftable permanent simulacra of every monster in the game, they're there so the GM can mess with the players in a horror setting. Because messing with players is the point of horror.

Which is not to say that I would ban these creatures from being crafted, but I wouldn't let them be purely obedient automatons either. If you make horror creatures, you should expect some horror tropes, including your creations perhaps behaving in ways you don't expect them to and causing trouble for the party as a result.

How do you reconcile that with the line in the base template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/sentient-waxwork-cr-0/) that says "A created waxwork creature obeys the commands of its creator"?

Edit: Also, do keep in mind: This has a payoff time measured in Years. Few players will attempt this in a game, except for about the same thing you'd use a dedicated wright for: Crafting while you're doing other things. There's very little one of these waxworks could make that you couldn't make yourself - you need Craft Construct to get the first, after all.

[Psyren]

As for building Pseudo Simulacrum we already have actual Sims so its not a big deal?


Simulacrum has potent limitations that keep it from being "build-your-own-perfectly-obedient-monster"; chief among those are the half-HD appropriateness rule and the cannot-become-more-powerful rule.


How do you reconcile that with the line in the base template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/sentient-waxwork-cr-0/) that says "A created waxwork creature obeys the commands of its creator"?

The fact that you don't create the sentient ones, they spontaneously occur.

[Jack_Simth]

The fact that you don't create the sentient ones, they spontaneously occur.Oh yes, I agreed earlier that I missed that portion and that you do indeed need to go by one of the more efficient routes. Still:
How do you reconcile that waxwork creatures are defined in their own template as being obedient to their creator (when they're deliberately created) with your statement that you "wouldn't let them be purely obedient automatons"?

[unseenmage]

Simulacrum has potent limitations that keep it from being "build-your-own-perfectly-obedient-monster"; chief among those are the half-HD appropriateness rule and the cannot-become-more-powerful rule.

...

And these have the potent limitations of costing a lot of money, time, and character build resources to make.

Guess they're all balanced. Good job team. High fives all around.

[Psyren]

Oh yes, I agreed earlier that I missed that portion and that you do indeed need to go by one of the more efficient routes. Still:
How do you reconcile that waxwork creatures are defined in their own template as being obedient to their creator (when they're deliberately created) with your statement that you "wouldn't let them be purely obedient automatons"?

Because there's always the chance that any of the ones you create "develop minds of their own" and become NPCs under the GM's control, instead of yours. Just as you'd expect in a horror game.


And these have the potent limitations of costing a lot of money, time, and character build resources to make.

You and I apparently have very divergent definitions of the term "potent limitation."

[Jack_Simth]

Because there's always the chance that any of the ones you create "develop minds of their own" and become NPCs under the GM's control, instead of yours. Just as you'd expect in a horror game.Yet they're built to be compatible with normal games. The template comes up just fine on the normal SRD indexes, with the only note that it's from horror material being a tiny little copyright notice down at the bottom. What do you do if it's not a horror game? Do you warn your players that you'll be pulling this on them when you review characters?

[unseenmage]

...

You and I apparently have very divergent definitions of the term "potent limitation."
Glad you're picking up what I'm putting down.

In other news, the existence of Lesser Sim has me wondering what the Trompe L'oeil/Alter Ego/Artificial Intelligence equivalent would be?

Some sort of Sim Astral Construct?

[Psyren]

Yet they're built to be compatible with normal games. The template comes up just fine on the normal SRD indexes, with the only note that it's from horror material being a tiny little copyright notice down at the bottom. What do you do if it's not a horror game? Do you warn your players that you'll be pulling this on them when you review characters?

I'm not saying you can't run them in a non-horror game without any of those elements, I'm saying that they were put in the horror book (along with that line) for a reason. Obviously you can do whatever you want with your own books, I'm certainly not going to alert the fun police to kick down your door.

As for the SRD, I can't speak for how you use it nor do I really care, it's just a compilation of all the game's OGL material.