Planning tactics for Planetar against PC Party

[FrancisBean]

I'll be running a one-shot, 3-6 sessions. It's a series of 3 dungeon crawls to obtain and unite the 3 pieces of the mighty Sword of McGuffin, blah, blah, yadda yadda. Here's the twist: the person giving the group the quest is a Planetar stuck with a "Jekyll and Hyde" curse. He's asking the party to track down the pieces of the one weapon which he knows can end him and his Mr. Hyde.

So, our Planetar is being careful not to learn more about the party than he has to. In fact, he's instructed them to meet with him in disguises so Mr. Hyde doesn't know which one is a wizard, or a front-liner, etc. He's also going to tell them everything he can about his own abilities, so I've told my group that the Planetar statblock is open book for the session.

Jekyll the Planetar will be doing his best to help the group, as he voluntarily goes into the final boss battle. He knows that, faced with destruction in the form of the McGuffin, Mr. Hyde will take over no matter what he does, and will know everything he knew about the heroes. And Mr. Hyde will have a few surprises, starting with the fact that his innate tie to the Nine Hells will let him summon devils.

And here's my actual question. This is a fallen Planetar (CR 16), doing his best to set himself up to lose, facing a 13th level party of 3-5 PC's, but knowing that as soon as he takes the field Mr. Hyde takes over.

What tactics should Mr. Hyde be using? The Heroes will get to choose the battleground, even a 10x10x10 closet if they really want. The McGuffin will prevent outbound plane shifting. Otherwise, Mr. Hyde has full access to the Planetar's powers, can summon devils (mechanics TBD), and knows anything Jekyll knew about the party.

This is an unusual case of the party knowing exactly what they'll face and being able to optimize precisely for it. There's no reason for me to hold back on Mr. Hyde.

Let's assume that Jekyll can't just wound himself to 1 HP or things like that because it would just bring out Hyde immediately. It's a straight-up fight, but until it begins, the BBEG is helping the party.

[MaxWilson]

What tactics should Mr. Hyde be using? The Heroes will get to choose the battleground, even a 10x10x10 closet if they really want. The McGuffin will prevent outbound plane shifting. Otherwise, Mr. Hyde has full access to the Planetar's powers, can summon devils (mechanics TBD), and knows anything Jekyll knew about the party.

Short shrift, but one simple tactic is to use your high mobility to reduce the number of attacks you take from melee PCs: taking one opportunity attack from one PC to end your turn 60' to 80' away is obviously superior to taking a full Attack + Extra Attacks sequence from one or more PCs.

If the party is ranged-heavy (warlocks, Sharpshooters) you might want to do the opposite and spend your movement to end every turn behind total cover, or at least prone.

If PCs cast big buff spells or use limited-duration special abilities, don't be afraid to back off, maybe cast Invisibility on yourself, and wait a few minutes for their special abilities to wear off before hitting them again. Unfortunately you technically can't heal yourself with Healing Touch while you're waiting because it only works on "another creature", not yourself.

[Nidgit]

My instinct would be to divide the party with Blade Barrier and occupy melee users with summoned devils, then concentrate on downing the spellcasters one by one starting with anyone likely to remove its summoned allies or use Int or Dex-based spells. Then Hyde can skirmish and Flame Strike the remaining melee users at its leisure.

Keep an eye on whatever the party says in front of the Planetar. If someone's saying they'll Counterspell or cast Truesight, that affects Hyde's opening moves. I'd imagine that its ability to detect lies works even when it's not in control, so it should immediately see through any bluffs the party attempts when preparing.

[MaxWilson]

My instinct would be to divide the party with Blade Barrier

Against a 13th level party this won't work--they will just Counterspell or Dispel the Blade Barrier, which means you just traded your action for one PC's reaction or action. Complete waste of a turn.

[Fat Rooster]

Hyde might be angry, but is she strategically stupid? Lets list her objectives.

1: Stay alive. In an ambush all other objectives are secondary.
2: Avoid this happening again.
2a: If they have access to planar escape routes then destroying the Mcguffin is high up. It probably is anyway, given the belief that it is a major threat contribution. This may or may not be warranted.
2b: Killing the party if no other escape routes are possible, or survival is already assured (Mcguffin destroyed, believes the party no threat without it).
3: Evil for lolz.

Unless the room is extremely secure, simply attempting to break out the door is probably plan A. Distracting the PCs with summons while doing so might be shrewd, especially if access to devils with effective stalling tactics are available. The fly speed means that escape is possible unless confined, but mostly it will be a case of smacking the highest priority target, and invisibility can buy considerable time unless the space is very small, (or burn counterspells on at will abilities). If the space is very small then insect plague is probably worth using; even if they only maintain concentration for a couple of ticks the AoE is going to mean any low HP PCs are going to struggle.

Eliminating glass cannons first is smart, but only worth doing if it can be done relatively safely. Fighting in corners where they cannot be flanked might be smarter than taking opportunity attacks to eliminate a target if it also means they get flanked for the next 2 rounds. Invisibility instead of a withdraw for a redeploy is worth considering, if counterspell is not expected (or they want to burn through them). Saying that though, don't be scared to take an opportunity attack to limit flanking by getting into a corner, especially if you then a occupy a couple of the threatening squares with devils to limit melee attacks completely.

Expect the PCs to not have AoE prepared, so be ready with swarms of weaker devils, over fewer strong ones. Always having a flanking partner, and having the battlefield locked down will extend the fight, letting her focus down the PCs one at a time.

The Mcguffin should probably be a priority for story reasons, even if it ends up being a "you were strong enough all along" ending.

A medium sized cave would probably favour the planetar. Immunity to exhaustion and at will invisibility make actually killing it in such a large space extremely difficult, especially as the party cannot leave the door unguarded, and splitting up by more than 30' opens them up to skirmish tactics. She will be much more in charge of the terms of the engagement. The Anti Cap Elevator tactic from winter soldier is probably correct, even if it is more vulnerable to AoE.

[Composer99]

Those are great suggestions; just keep in mind flanking isn't a "thing" in 5e unless the DM is using that variant rule from the DMG. (Are you, FrancisBean?)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Those are great suggestions; just keep in mind flanking isn't a "thing" in 5e unless the DM is using that variant rule from the DMG. (Are you, FrancisBean?)

It is still a nice way to limit the enemy movement.

You can't go around a character without taking AOO from the other character.

[FrancisBean]

Those are great suggestions; just keep in mind flanking isn't a "thing" in 5e unless the DM is using that variant rule from the DMG. (Are you, FrancisBean?)

That's a fair point! I was planning on going full Battle Mat for this one, so I was also going to use the flanking rules.

[RickAllison]

Merregons from MTF could be a good option, they can be bodyguards for the big guy if invisibility and movement don’t work. If you have more room to work with, bearded devils are quite effective and force attention because their attacks just get worse and worse with every successful hit. Black abershais can lay down Darkness and even move it around.

[CTurbo]

Bring a Solar to the fight?


lol just kidding. I would try to prevent the Planetar from being able to fly if possible. That would help a lot.


Also, I love this idea and may steal it to use in the future. Not exactly, but some version of it that is.

[CTurbo]

If each player is allowed one very rare magic item, a Belt of Fire Giant Strength would match the Planetar's str score. A Bard or Rogue with expertise in Athletics should pretty easily be able to grapple it while the rest of the party beats it down. At the very least prevent it from flying away or take away it's Greatsword.

You could even build a character min-maxed specifically for grappling it.

Lore Bard with a Barbarian dip. You have Expertise in Athletics, advantage on Athletic checks while raging, and cutting words to help make sure it fails it's Str checks.

Will the Planetar maintain it's Radiant resistance while in evil mode?



For flavor, I would build a Fallen Aasimar Lore Bard with a 2 level Barbarian dip and Belt of Giant Str and Amulet of Health. A grappled creature has disadvantage on Dex saves and a pinned creature SHOULD auto fail dex saves(I think).

Sword Burst is a fun cantrip that only has the V component and calls for a Dex save. You could deal 3d6 force damage + character level Necrotic damage to it each round while holding it down.

[FrancisBean]

If each player is allowed one very rare magic item, a Belt of Fire Giant Strength would match the Planetar's str score. A Bard or Rogue with expertise in Athletics should pretty easily be able to grapple it while the rest of the party beats it down. At the very least prevent it from flying away or take away it's Greatsword.

You could even build a character min-maxed specifically for grappling it. ...

I'm inclined to agree with your tactical plan here, but... I'm actually in the DM's boots for this one. I'm trying to plan out the Planetar's tactics, not the other way around. :smallwink:

[Mellack]

A lot of the tactics will have to adjust to the battle area. Does it have room to summon or fly? Can it run away? Without even knowing the basics of the terrain we are going to be just throwing out guesses.

[CTurbo]

I'm inclined to agree with your tactical plan here, but... I'm actually in the DM's boots for this one. I'm trying to plan out the Planetar's tactics, not the other way around. :smallwink:

Hahaha my bad I should have known.

Anyway, if the Planetar doesn't have room to get away from the party, it's going to get beat down. Also, I feel like it would be more interested in trying to escape than fighting to the death.

With a 19 Int, Planetars are very very smart, and they also can't be lied to or easily tricked. I don't think it would allow itself to be put in a position where it would feel trapped or contained.

[Spiritchaser]

First off, I love the concept!

So the way I understand it, this thing wants the players to succeed, it is very intelligent and will have tremendous resources to prepare the perfect place for its inevitable demise
Under these circumstances It will succeed, unless something happens that is not according to plan.

That surprise something could be an ability, secret knowledge or a circumstance that Hyde has somehow arranged without Jekyll knowing about it.

Your demon summoning surprise could work, but consider that the players could restrict the encounter space, or creativity limit their adversary before the encounter such that even this doesn’t work well

I’d suggest: Hyde is aware of a flaw in swordy mcswordface, and exploits it to break through the limit on planar travel and suck the players into a realm he has prepared.

This trick only works once because reasons... or maybe the players must fix the problem while fighting Hyde, and must do so before he considers himself truly threatened to prevent him escaping.



Now Hyde controls

[MaxWilson]

Anyway, if the Planetar doesn't have room to get away from the party, it's going to get beat down. Also, I feel like it would be more interested in trying to escape than fighting to the death.

Just make one of the effects of the MacGuffin be driving Hyde into a suicidal rage in which he absolutely WILL NOT flee until the MacGuffin is destroyed. Make it something utterly repugnant to him, like a selfie of him as a child being forced to kiss his grandmother "right on the lips," in the words of Bill S. Preston, Jr'.s worst nightmare.

You want him screaming "Noooooo!" and desperately doing absolutely anything to wipe it out of existence ASAP.

[FrancisBean]

I’d suggest: Hyde is aware of a flaw in swordy mcswordface, and exploits it to break through the limit on planar travel and suck the players into a realm he has prepared.

This trick only works once because reasons... or maybe the players must fix the problem while fighting Hyde, and must do so before he considers himself truly threatened to prevent him escaping.

::ding:: Perfect! But done as a "Bloodied" sort of effect, once Hyde's taken enough beat-down. The group gets their pre-planned battlefield... for a while. I just need a good justification for why Hyde can't flee after changing the battlefield. I'll come up with something, because I'm lovin' this. :smallbiggrin:

[Brookshw]

This is an unusual case of the party knowing exactly what they'll face and being able to optimize precisely for it.


I was thinking about this. Though the party knows they're up against a Planetar, and that Planetar is sharing info with them, I was kind of thinking that sometimes when they're getting info from Jekyll they may actually be unknowingly talking to Hyde who's feeding them disinformation. Further, Hyde may play along with disinformation about his weaknesses or strengths to fake out the party. It might make for a more interesting encounter if the players are guessing which tactic/strength/weakness they're prepared for suddenly turns out to be a red herring.

[FrancisBean]

I was thinking about this. Though the party knows they're up against a Planetar, and that Planetar is sharing info with them, I was kind of thinking that sometimes when they're getting info from Jekyll they may actually be unknowingly talking to Hyde who's feeding them disinformation.

Let's just say that the thought had occurred to me, and while I don't think any of my players are on the forum, I wasn't going to publically speculate down these lines. Best not to give them too many ideas about what might be creeping up on them from the darkness.... :mitd:

[Aussiehams]

Maybe make the mighty maguffin sword have some sort of binding affect so that anything it hits can't move more than 100 ft away or something.
Then it becomes a game of how to get the sword away from the PC'S and escape, while getting beat on.

[stoutstien]

Really comes down to what spells the wizard has. At this lv, quite a few spells can end the planetar with out even a by your leave.

[Fable Wright]

So, Mr. Hyde should have some details at this point courtesy Commune about Jekyll's actions. In terms of priority:

1. Find some way to break line of sight for a moment.
2. Flee the area.
3. Take revenge.

For the second one, I'd actually go with Banishment. Hyde, you could say, counts as a native of Avernus. Not the material plane. So if Banished, he goes there. He doesn't want to go there, because it's Avernus, but when the chips are down, it's better than nothing. The PCs are dragged along because the item doesn't prevent planar travel, it prevents planar escape.

Also, leaving Avernus is hard. Like, quest hard. Can't pull that trick twice.

Second, for him to do anything against Counterspell, he's going to either need a Smokestick imported from 3.5e that he can snap as a bonus action, or Subtle magic a la Sorcerer, or some help. Blade Barrier separating the party sounds good in theory, but in practice, it's just an HP tax on the fighter. I'd stick with instead using his first action of the combat to be (as not-a-spell) to summon an Ice Devil or two and have the Osyluth act on Hyde's initiative. The Ice Devil can fire off a non-spell Wall of Ice, locking up the Fighter for a round or two and doing a number on the Wizard, which you should try to catch on the edge of the effect though this isn't guaranteed.

Then next turn, breaking line of sight as you hide behind the opaque wall of ice, cast Blade Barrier on the Wizard's location. It's on the short list of spells that don't need line of sight to be cast, so it can be nasty in this kind of situation. Meanwhile Ice Devil plows in and gets to work.

From here, it's an uphill fight, but the PCs have the terrain on their side. They can take it while fully rested, right?

[FrancisBean]

So, Mr. Hyde should have some details at this point courtesy Commune about Jekyll's actions. In terms of priority:

1. Find some way to break line of sight for a moment.
2. Flee the area.
3. Take revenge.

For the second one, I'd actually go with Banishment. Hyde, you could say, counts as a native of Avernus. Not the material plane. So if Banished, he goes there. He doesn't want to go there, because it's Avernus, but when the chips are down, it's better than nothing. The PCs are dragged along because the item doesn't prevent planar travel, it prevents planar escape.

Also, leaving Avernus is hard. Like, quest hard. Can't pull that trick twice.

Second, for him to do anything against Counterspell, he's going to either need a Smokestick imported from 3.5e that he can snap as a bonus action, or Subtle magic a la Sorcerer, or some help. Blade Barrier separating the party sounds good in theory, but in practice, it's just an HP tax on the fighter. I'd stick with instead using his first action of the combat to be (as not-a-spell) to summon an Ice Devil or two and have the Osyluth act on Hyde's initiative. The Ice Devil can fire off a non-spell Wall of Ice, locking up the Fighter for a round or two and doing a number on the Wizard, which you should try to catch on the edge of the effect though this isn't guaranteed.

Then next turn, breaking line of sight as you hide behind the opaque wall of ice, cast Blade Barrier on the Wizard's location. It's on the short list of spells that don't need line of sight to be cast, so it can be nasty in this kind of situation. Meanwhile Ice Devil plows in and gets to work.

From here, it's an uphill fight, but the PCs have the terrain on their side. They can take it while fully rested, right?

Taking the last one first, yes. The party chooses the location of the final fight, and they'll have time for a long rest first.

There's no need for Commune, and no time for it anyway. Hyde remembers whatever Jekyll has seen, which is why Jekyll has told the party to tell him nothing. Jekyll is in control right up until he enters the battlefield, which is when Hyde, in a last desperate attempt at self-preservation, wrenches free and takes over.

I plan to add at least one more thing at step 0: a wholly role-play bit where Hyde tries to convince them that he's really Jekyll after all, and he's finally won his internal battle, and so forth. It doesn't really affect the combat beyond giving Hyde a few seconds to scope out the terrain before we roll initiative.

The banishment idea is just about perfect, and you've also given me an idea for a neat twist on it, too. Let's say that the McGuffin doesn't actually prevent plane shifting at all; what it does is it prevents our Planetar from leaving the boundaries of the area. To plane shift, he'll need to take the entire area with him. I'm picturing something like this when he reaches half hit points.

Exhausted and spitting blood, the angel rises slowly to his full height. "You think you've defeated me? You think you've won? All you've won is your own damnation!" There's a sudden wrenching, and a moment of intense vertigo, and you find the whole chamber in freefall for a heart-stopping moment before a massive crashing impact. Everybody not flying takes 3d6 falling damage. (DM pauses the game to draw new chasms and rubble on the map; and explains that the whole battlefield somehow got plane shifted, materializing about 30 feet up before shattering on the smoking plains of Avernus.)

This is also when his radiant effects switch over to necrotic, and so forth. Maybe some of his other powers change as he embraces his full evil nature. It'll probably come with fluff imagery of his feathers falling like a snowstorm to reveal bat wings, and so forth. I'm a believer in the notion of multi-phase boss battles. The power changes and the terrain changes from cracks and rubble should keep the encounter fresh.
One weirdism about my players: they almost never use Counterspell. It'll be interesting to see if they realize how important it could be here. So far I've got a War Cleric and a Sorlock, so the Sorlock will have the spell and enough slots that they can't be quickly exhausted by, say, spamming Invisibility.

[Goldlizard]

Use this. I find That this advice makes for a really flavorful encounter. modify to your taste!
http://themonstersknow.com/angel-tactics/

[FrancisBean]

Use this. I find That this advice makes for a really flavorful encounter. modify to your taste!
http://themonstersknow.com/angel-tactics/

It's great stuff, and no foolin'. It's also where I started. That site has been a "go to" for me for monster tactics for a long time. I think this situation is markedly different from the stock Planetar, though: Hyde is evil, happy to kill the innocent, and focused on survival over everything else. Maybe I should be looking at the Devils on that site for ideas!

[Goldlizard]

It's great stuff, and no foolin'. It's also where I started. That site has been a "go to" for me for monster tactics for a long time. I think this situation is markedly different from the stock Planetar, though: Hyde is evil, happy to kill the innocent, and focused on survival over everything else. Maybe I should be looking at the Devils on that site for ideas!

i don't know, Id say ignore the "retreat at___" and swap Chaotic/and or evil" to "good/ and or lawful" and that should cover most of it

[FrancisBean]

First, some administrivia: I asked for, and received, moderator permission to resurrect this thread to give a post-mortem to the people who helped me to plan out the tactics of the climactic battle. The game happened; the server outage happened; and I'm only now getting a chance to post the update.

First, the party had 4 players, 13th level at the final battle. I'd given them some very liberal build options, which they exploited to the hilt. One player built a Sorlock and pooled all of his magic item options to get two Charisma tomes, so he went into the battle with a 24(!) Charisma, Quickened Eldritch Blast, and the Repelling Blast invocation. Half the party had access to flight, which meant they could also carry the other half (at half speed and chance of dropping them under stress). Most had AC over 20 from careful magic item selection. They had a caster with access to Animate Objects (and a bag full of tableware cutlery), and enough gems to add several Symbols to the battlefield. The party also got to select that battlefield, and they chose a long, narrow room from a dungeon they depopulated while assembling the pieces of the mighty Dagger of MacGuffin. It was about 120'x20' with a 20' vaulted ceiling (10' at the edges, 20' in the middle, so flying placement could theoretically have mattered.)

I staged the battle in 2 phases. In phase 1, they faced Jekyll, a book-standard Planetar with a single-shot ability to summon an Ice Devil as a Bonus Action on his first round. Once Jekyll was reduced to 0hp, I planned a short cut scene as Hyde, the devilish remnant, burst free and was banished to Avernus. The Dagger of MacGuffin flared and wouldn't let the battle end, and the entire chamber was dragged to Avernus, materializing about 30' up and crashing to the ground. I'd planned this so I could adjust the battlefield by dropping crevasses and rubble and stripping out the most insurmountable pieces of party prep. Hyde had basically the same stats as Jekyll, but with necrotic swapped for radiant, and one weapon strike substituted with a weakened version of Geryon's tail stinger and Geryon's Minotaur summoning variant ability.

Phase 1 was almost a whimper. The party prepared one of the most spectacularly unfair, "Combat as War" ambushes I've ever seen. Jekyll was Eldritch Blasted into the far end of the room with the Symbols (2 Pain, 2 Death), and a Wall of Stone immediately cast to seal him in. The Ice Devil and Jekyll barely managed to break a small hole before expiring from the Symbols, while the group mostly sat around figuratively smoking cigarettes.

Phase 2 got everybody's attention. The Cleric was blinded for a round by the MacGuffin's flash. Hyde summoned a bunch of Minotaurs as cannon fodder, then hunkered down behind full cover. Next round, he cast Invisibility and flew off to try to hide (the ceiling had collapsed, so he wasn't sealed in anymore). The Minotaurs weren't a serious threat to the party, but they made it very slow going to get to Hyde. The animated cutlery swarmed over the minotaurs while the party moved out of the broken room to get some breathing space, and somebody cast See Invisible to find their target. The Dagger of MacGuffin wouldn't let Hyde move more than 120' from it, so all he could do without losing his invisibility was to fly around trying to hide while the environment finished the group.

Meanwhile, to give the group some tactical issues, they met 2 Merregons and 4 Bearded Devils on the plain. To add more pressure, I had flaming meteors randomly dropping onto the battlefield on Initiative 20 (dicing for location). They weren't actually a serious threat, but it kept everyone on edge and reluctant to bunch up. Finally, to add time pressure, in the distance they could see a pair of Hellfire Engines coming their way, arriving in about 3 rounds.

The group decided to ignore the smaller threats to focus fire on their target. (Note: neither Merrogons nor Bearded Devils can fly.) Directed by the one person who could See Invisible, two casters used area effects to keep hammering Hyde. The Sorlock's EB wasn't as good with disadvantage, but still got a few hits. And that's when they got their one lucky break. By pure coincidence, they dropped Hyde from the air (proned) just as one of the Hellfire engines arrived... right into that arrival path. "Well, that's going to leave a mark..."

With Hyde's concentration finally broken and no longer invisible, the swashbuckler ran up with the MacGuffin to deliver the final blow to ensure he stayed dead this time. The MacGuffin detonated, knocking most of the combatants prone.

About this time, the second Hellfire Engine arrived. A gate opened, the last survivor of Jekyll's angelic comrades standing within it and calling for the party to run for it. The Cleric went down from a Bonemelt Sprayer, but the group carried her out. Gate closed, and the group survived.

Epilogue: they got their various rewards, bestowed via the angel who rescued them, by the hand of her God. And then, later that night, the Swashbuckler who delivered the final blow heard the first dark whispers in the back of her mind....