Skill Challenge Questions

[SpectreCatcher]

I was looking to add a Skill Challenge to my game, but having never played 4e I have a few questions about setting it up. I know of them from listening to a 4e live play podcast for a little while and I really liked the idea.

My first question is about the success to failure ratio. I have 5 PCs so I was thinking of making them get 5 successes before 3 failures in order to make sure that each PC gets to attempt something at least once. Is that reasonable? More successes? More failures?

Since they rolled for stats and are level 6 & 7 I was thinking that setting the DC at around 15 for the different checks would be good. I was also considering having a sliding scale on the DC from around 13 - 16 (or maybe higher) depending on the check they are trying to attempt and/or the coolness of what they are trying to achieve. Is having a solid DC regardless of what they are attempting the way to go or is the sliding scale better?

The part that has given me the most headaches while setting this up has been what exactly to present them with. The scenario is going to be that they are at a Circus being thrown as a celebration for them. They will know that the ringmaster is concerned about putting on the performance because he suspects that there is someone trying to sabotage the Circus. So they will be tasked with helping to ensure that things go off without issue. Where I am having difficulty is determining if I should lead them with things to attempt. For instance, there is a trapeze act about to go on and you notice that one of the sets of ropes looks frayed...what do you do? Or should I let them come up with what they want to do on their turn to try to help keep things running? My thought was it may need to be a combination of the two, but I wasn't sure exactly how to set that scene.

How would you present this? What things could you perceive that may be sabotaged that they can try to save?

[firelistener]

The 5e DMG has guidelines for skill checks in it. Basically 5 is easy, 10 is normal, 15 is difficult, 20 is very difficult (something that is impossible for untrained normal NPCs to do), and 25+ is superhuman. The easiest thing to do is just let players tell you what they are trying to do and create skill checks on the fly with that. For dungeons, it's easier to create some like "opening the lock requires a DC15 dexterity check or DC 20 strength check".

Key to remember: NEVER make people roll for things they should have no chance of doing. Just say, "you are unable to do that" as DM. You decide what players roll, so that no one rolls a 20 and says they should be able to jump over a mountain.

[Nagog]

Key to remember: NEVER make people roll for things they should have no chance of doing. Just say, "you are unable to do that" as DM. You decide what players roll, so that no one rolls a 20 and says they should be able to jump over a mountain.

AGREED. Many DMs I find are far too lenient and allow many things that simply shouldn't be possible just because the player rolled well.

for skill challenges involving multiple checks, I found some advice from James Haeck on DnD Beyond (their Encounter of the Week series is full of great advice for DMs of all experience levels) saying that for longer winded skill checks, they suggest implementing a rule that you cannot use the same skill more than once per challenge. This prevents the skill check from becoming monotonous and dull, and encourages players to think outside the box on what skills their character has and how they can implement them in creative and fun ways.

[Tanarii]

My original test with skill challenges.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535062-Testing-Example-Skill-Challenge-in-5e
It worked out okay. I've used a technique of spreading a challenge out across an adventuring site fairly often since then. Spreading it out around encounters makes it interesting.

What I based it on:
https://critical-hits.com/blog/2016/08/16/skill-challenges-in-5th-edition-dd/

[Bjarkmundur]

It's always three failures, no matter the successess.

I recommend a DC 12 for a success, but a DC 10 can be used to give the next player in line advantage on his roll. This adds multiple rolls without increasing the complexity.

I like using DC 12 for pretty much everything challenging enough to warrant a dice roll, up to level 4. Then I use DC 15. Everything lower than this I is not challenging enough to warrant a dice roll. With the low amount of rolls the probability is pretty skewed, so I adopt a philosophy of 'obviously low rolls are obviously low, avarage rolls are probably enough'.

What's the source of conflict? There's a show going on and someone has been deliberately sabotaging it? Who? Is there only one source of conflict? What are the consequences of failure?

[SpectreCatcher]

What's the source of conflict? There's a show going on and someone has been deliberately sabotaging it? Who? Is there only one source of conflict? What are the consequences of failure?

The goal they will be presented with is two fold, and it is possible to complete one without the other. The first is to help make sure that the show happens without anyone getting hurt or any real disasters. I was thinking that some of the things they could be attempting to prevent would be making sure some of the dangerous attractions (mimics, a manticore, others I haven't fully fleshed out yet) don't get turned loose on the crowd. As well as things like ropes or tent poles breaking and causing damage/chaos, things of that nature.

The other goal is to try to determine, and possibly capture, the party (or parties) responsible for these acts.

I was thinking that if they achieve all five successes with no failures then they would not only know who is behind these acts, but be able to capture them as well. One failure, they would know who it is but they would elude capture. Two failures, circus would be successful but they don't determine who was behind it. If they fail completely the show would have to stop, I figured the reason why the showed had to stop would be improvised based on the checks they attempted and what courses of action were taken.

I'm not really married to any of it and would be open to any suggestions. My main goal was to make this circus an interactive event and not just a cut scene they are watching, because...well because BORING. I also figure in the day or two leading up to the performance there will be a festival with games the players can participate in, like a caber toss and an archery contest. All the while they can be looking around and talking to people to try to get some info, which may in turn lower some of the challenge DCs, depending on what they learn if anything.

[solidork]

If they're new to doing skill challenges, be ready to suggest obstacles for them to overcome. It takes some experience to get comfortable coming up with your own appropriate things to overcome. Also, be careful not to set the DC too high.

[Contrast]

Since they rolled for stats and are level 6 & 7 I was thinking that setting the DC at around 15 for the different checks would be good. I was also considering having a sliding scale on the DC from around 13 - 16 (or maybe higher) depending on the check they are trying to attempt and/or the coolness of what they are trying to achieve. Is having a solid DC regardless of what they are attempting the way to go or is the sliding scale better?

I dunno how good the stats they rolled were but I'll work on the assumption a level 6-7 char will have around +6-8 in a few skills they specialise in and probably +3-5 in some others. So assuming everyone gets to make a test on a thing they're specialised in a DC15 gives them just over 1/3 chance of failure meaning you can expect roughly 2 successes for each 1 failure meaning 5 successes before 3 failures means the outcome will be pretty finely balanced. So DC15 is fine if you expect the PCs operating in their specific strengths to fail half the time/want to require other resources expenditure by the party to improve the odds. If PCs are going to be testing in skills they aren't specialised in at any point that failure rate is gonna go way up.

I'd def go for a sliding scale for no other reason that you don't actually know what the PCs are going to do. Some methods of dealing with things are inherently more difficult than others. Fording a river is an entirely different enterprise than trying to build a raft which is different again than trying to navigate around.

[SpectreCatcher]

I dunno how good the stats they rolled were but I'll work on the assumption a level 6-7 char will have around +6-8 in a few skills they specialise in and probably +3-5 in some others. So assuming everyone gets to make a test on a thing they're specialised in a DC15 gives them just over 1/3 chance of failure meaning you can expect roughly 2 successes for each 1 failure meaning 5 successes before 3 failures means the outcome will be pretty finely balanced. So DC15 is fine if you expect the PCs operating in their specific strengths to fail half the time/want to require other resources expenditure by the party to improve the odds. If PCs are going to be testing in skills they aren't specialised in at any point that failure rate is gonna go way up.

I'd def go for a sliding scale for no other reason that you don't actually know what the PCs are going to do. Some methods of dealing with things are inherently more difficult than others. Fording a river is an entirely different enterprise than trying to build a raft which is different again than trying to navigate around.

You are fairly spot on with their bonuses and your breakdown on their success rate was what I was looking for. I was thinking that it may be a little higher, but after thinking about it, I do think it is closer to your 2 successes per failure. I definitely would prefer they succeed in this challenge as I want this to be enjoyable so I think I will go with the sliding scale DC.

I was strongly considering limiting them to only using skills they are proficient in, but I don't have their character sheets in front of me and I do believe there is a fair amount of overlap amongst them. The other thing I was considering doing to make it a little easier on them, is if one of the casters (Druid and Ranger) want to do something with magic (either Arcana or actually trying a spell) I would let them use Wisdom instead of Intelligence. I know that it is my option to let that happen with any skill check (like letting someone sub Strength for Charisma on an Intimidation check) so I felt it made sense here as well.


If they're new to doing skill challenges, be ready to suggest obstacles for them to overcome. It takes some experience to get comfortable coming up with your own appropriate things to overcome. Also, be careful not to set the DC too high.

I was assuming that I would have to lead them a bit. One of my players is a little familiar with skill challenges so he should be fine, and he is also a DM himself so that adds to my confidence for him. Another of my players was a DM for a while and also has a good grasp on the rules in general, so I'm sure he'll be fine as well. The other three are a bit newer and don't have as much experience so that is where some of my concern comes in.

I'm not exactly how much I should lead them. I like the idea that Matt Colville laid out in his video on the topic of giving them a couple of examples of ways to use skills and let them go from there. Like tell them they can use Insight to scan a group of people looking for someone that seems to have bad intentions, or Athletics to run and catch a falling acrobat. But I just wonder if that would be enough for them. I tend to be an over-thinker.

[Contrast]

I was strongly considering limiting them to only using skills they are proficient in

I would be a little cautious with that mentality.

When you present your players with a task you want them to be thinking about how their characters might approach the problem in the context of the world - a lot of the fun of the game comes from being inventive and engaging with the world. You don't just want them trying to reinterpret every challenge they could face as a way to roll whatever skill they're best at.

One thing to stress is that just because someone comes up with an idea doesn't mean they have to be the one to do it.

If this is the first time you're doing this type of thing I might be inclined to set the DC low to help players feel encouraged in thinking outside the box and ramp up the challenge in future examples - of course you may need the stakes to be high this time for other reasons which is totally fair enough *shrugs* :smallbiggrin:

[SpectreCatcher]

I would be a little cautious with that mentality.

When you present your players with a task you want them to be thinking about how their characters might approach the problem in the context of the world - a lot of the fun of the game comes from being inventive and engaging with the world. You don't just want them trying to reinterpret every challenge they could face as a way to roll whatever skill they're best at.

One thing to stress is that just because someone comes up with an idea doesn't mean they have to be the one to do it.

If this is the first time you're doing this type of thing I might be inclined to set the DC low to help players feel encouraged in thinking outside the box and ramp up the challenge in future examples - of course you may need the stakes to be high this time for other reasons which is totally fair enough *shrugs* :smallbiggrin:

These are great points. I was thinking of limiting them for a couple of reasons, one to give them a smaller pool of things to focus on trying since it will be their first time, and two because this would possibly make them think within their character strengths. But I think you may be right about limiting them too much especially for their first time.

The stakes don't have to be too high, but I would like there to be some tension. I think I'll definitely go lower than 15 as a baseline, maybe 12, and then go up or down depending on what they want to try to attempt and how feasible it would be within the context. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[BW022]

The part that has given me the most headaches while setting this up has been what exactly to present them with. The scenario is going to be that they are at a Circus being thrown as a celebration for them. They will know that the ringmaster is concerned about putting on the performance because he suspects that there is someone trying to sabotage the Circus. So they will be tasked with helping to ensure that things go off without issue. Where I am having difficulty is determining if I should lead them with things to attempt. For instance, there is a trapeze act about to go on and you notice that one of the sets of ropes looks frayed...what do you do? Or should I let them come up with what they want to do on their turn to try to help keep things running? My thought was it may need to be a combination of the two, but I wasn't sure exactly how to set that scene.

How would you present this? What things could you perceive that may be sabotaged that they can try to save?

IMO, you actually have a great scenario -- interesting setting, conflict, challenges, etc. Unless you are really pressed for time... I don't know why you wouldn't just make five encounters and roleplay them.

Have five acts or areas of the circus which would be sabotaged. Have NPCs, names, motivations, etc. Have an opposition group (with basic stats, say level 5) divided up with a plan and maybe give the PCs some warning or clues about what the group might be up to. Then let the players approach it as they wish -- maybe separate, maybe stay together. For example, rather than some skill challenge about cut trapeze ropes... say at 1:30pm Rinx the evil warlock is going to be sweet talking one of the stage hands while Rinnit (her weasel familiar) chews on some of the ropes near the top of the tent. The performance is at 2:00pm. Then see what the PCs do to stop it.

I think skill challenges are best for things which are boring/tendinous to roleplay through and are primarily based on skills beyond the player's actual knowledge/skills -- certain puzzles, deciphering a script, hauling a wagon up a mountain side, navigating through the wilderness under pressure, finding information in a city, etc. Stopping a sabotage mission in a circus doesn't sound boring.

[Pelle]

I'd def go for a sliding scale for no other reason that you don't actually know what the PCs are going to do. Some methods of dealing with things are inherently more difficult than others. Fording a river is an entirely different enterprise than trying to build a raft which is different again than trying to navigate around.

I think this is important for skill challenges to be meaningful, otherwise it's just rolling dice again and again with no player decisions. Present a problem, let them figure how they want to solve it, and set the DC and choose ability modifier accordingly. Then the players have agency and it's not a snoozefest.

What does failure mean in this context? It's best if the players can see the consequences of each failure and that it makes sense instead of being completely abstract.