Help with Lore Bard

[Bobthewizard]

I’m hoping to get some input for a Lore Bard for a campaign set in the city of Sharn in Eberron, so more intrigue and mystery than a dungeon crawl. My role is mostly face, battlefield control and healer in a 3 person party. The rest of the party is a zealot barbarian with tavern brawler and an evoker wizard. My character is a half-elf with the Mark of Storm so she can pilot airships and aircabs.

For healing, I’ll have song of rest and take healing word, lesser restoration, and eventually raise dead. The DM is pretty generous with healing potions since we don’t have a primary healer. Our DM says we will be friends with an NPC cleric, too, so I might not even need raise dead. He won't adventure with us, but I he'll likely help if one of us died.

With only 3 of us, I feel like we need my character to be better at damage, even though the other two are pretty focused on it. So I think I’m going to take moderate armor for my feat at level 4 and then lightning bolt and spirit guardians for my 6th level magical secrets. I think that will be more effective than going swords or valor for the extra attack.

I’m going to take lightning bolt instead of fireball since the evoker will have both fireball and wall of fire. I’ll take synaptic static at level 9 for an AOE blast.

We have good battlefield control with fear, hypnotic pattern, and web between us.

I’m going to bump charisma at level 8. I’m planning to pick up counterspell at level 10, but the wizard has it and I thought I should focus on offense with the level 6 picks.

Ae there any other bard spells you like or any other considerations for magical secrets, especially for the second level 10 pick? Any other suggestions?

EDIT 9/11 7:20am: I am not going to dip Hexblade. While I agree with the mechanics, it doesn't fit the character, and hexblade dips are so universally good on other Charisma classes that they are overdone and essentially banned at our tables. At this point, I'm pretty set on moderately armored at 4 and spirit guardians for one of my level 6 magical secrets. I love the rest of this discussion though. There have been a lot of great ideas so far.

[Warlush]

Spiritual Weapon only uses a bonus action, doesn't require concentration, does force damage, it scales, and has great range. Also since you're not casting it on subsequent turns you can still cast levelled spells with your action. It's just a really solid way to improve your DPR.

For level 10, there are so many awesome choices! M's private sanctuary, Bigsby's hand, sickinging radiance, enervation, dance macabre are all amazing.

For what it's worth, i would skip the armor and boost CHA. One more use of cutting words can save your bacon when armor might not. But you know. That's just like my opinion, man.

[Guy Lombard-O]

(sigh) Well, there's the ever-popular 1-level Hexblade dip. Possibly more cheesy than you'd like, but it's hard to argue with the results.

[Nagog]

I would pick up Defensive Duelist instead of Moderately Armored. It doesn't last as long as Shield, but it doesn't cost a spell slot and it scales with Proficiency. From there, I'd pick up something like Spike Growth, Entangle, or even some summon spells to better boost your battlefield control, I'd particularly look at Spike Growth and Summons for damage combined with area control. If your Barbarian is making the most of the grappling options available with Tavern Brawler, if they have the capacity to throw an enemy into the Spike Growth that could cause some major damage. From there nabbing Thunder Wave to bounce them back in when they attempt to escape will stack more and more damage on them.

[Keravath]

I'd be tempted by a 2 level hexblade warlock dip. (sorry :) ). It gets you a lot to make you more survivable and do decent ranged single target damage and some crowd control (agonizing blast and possibly repelling blast).

I did this with my lore bard and it worked out well for me since agonizing blast was very useful for those turns when I wanted to do damage and wasn't casting spells. Vicious mockery wasn't very satisfying (though in my case I took devils sight since it was a variant human and seeing in the dark is very useful ... less useful for a race with darkvision).

The drawback is that it delays your spells. However, you have a wizard in the group to cover the level 5 direct damage and control spells so you can manage with lower level spells until you hit level 7. I didn't find the delay to higher level spells to be particularly significant ... the main impact was level 6 waiting for 3rd level spells at 7th level.

You can also do well in the social aspects with expertise in persuasion ... and with the hexblade dip you will pick up both the shield spell and hex and 2 short rest 1st level spell slots to supplement your other spell slots.

The hexblade also gives you proficiency with medium armor, shields and martial weapons and the ability to use your charisma with a one handed weapon if you are forced into using a weapon in combat.

Anyway, in a small group, where you may be called upon for a variety of roles, it is worth considering.

[sithlordnergal]

So, in that sort of party, I would do the following:

1) Take a two level Hexblade dip. That will grant you better AC, a reliable range cantrip, and invocations to buff your cantrip.

2) Once you can get Counterspell and Spiritual Weapon. While it does take up your bonus action, Spiritual Weapon is a major boon for Bards, as it gives you some decent ways to attack people

3) Make sure you have Shatter and Dissonant Whispers

4) For your warlock spells snag Shield and Armor of Agathys

[Emongnome777]

Another benefit of taking Hexblade levels is getting Hex. Beyond the damage buff, putting disadvantage on Str or Dex checks to help the grappler could be useful as well.

[sophontteks]

The campaign is intrigue/mystery. I wouldn't dip for combat stats given the type of campaign. That's more for dungeon crawls and getting those lore spells 2 levels late is a big deal. The evocation wizard will no doubt be focusing on damage already.

[Bobthewizard]

Hexblade dip is too cheesy for this group, especially early. They'll want to know why from a character standpoint, and the DM might have the pact come back to bite me. Avoiding it is the big reason I changed from my original plan of going swords bard. I just couldn't figure out how to make it work without the hexblade dip.

I may be able to get away with a single level of divine soul sorcerer since there is no pact involved. It may even be appropriate after I steal spirit guardians. I'm going to stick with spirit guardians over spiritual weapon since, even though it uses concentration, it scales better and does a lot more damage. I'll already have a lot of uses for my bonus action between healing word and bardic inspiration.

I took moderately armored at 4 since I'm starting with an 18 charisma and only a 14 dexterity. So I can wait to boost charisma and the feat gives me plus 4 to my AC with breastplate and a shield.

So if I take shield and absorb elements with a sorcerer dip, I'd be able to take another offensive spell at bard level 10, maybe destructive wave.

Then when we just need to do damage, the evoker can sculpt a wall of fire or sickening radiance with sculpted fireballs on top. I could use spirit guardians and either destructive wave or lightning bolt, and the barbarian won't have to worry about friendly fire at all while she grapples the enemy to keep them in the death zone. I think this would make us pretty good in close combat even with only one martial character.

[Reynaerde]

3) Make sure you have Shatter and Dissonant WhispersDissonant Whispers is great for your character! If you would go for that hexblade dip (I did with my whisper bard, but he is more of a wannabe frontline character than yours appears to be) you can do some fun tricks with stuff like war caster and booming blade, so that is nice. But the reason I say this is great for you is because in addition to dealing 3d6 damage and giving a bit of control, it allows your barbarian ally to use his reaction for an additional attack and that is great damage for a 1st level spell!

Shatter is good too, but if control is your goal, I think thunderwave is at least as interesting (and your evoker pal will be happy with you pushing your enemies closer together).

[Petrocorus]

In combat, you have the roles of the tank and the DPR covered, and you seem to have the BFC covered too. Do you have a buffer?

Out of combat, you have a heal, an utility caster, and obviously a face. Do you have a scout /trapfinder /door-opener?

[Corran]

Rush bard 6. Take resilient con at level 4 and use one of your additional magical secrets of level 6 to take conjure animals. Later on, I would look to take heal as one of my magical secrets.

[Reynaerde]

Take resilient con at level 4Why not warcaster?

[Corran]

Why not warcaster?
Warcaster would work as well. I generally prefer resilient con if there is no real need (hands full) to take warcaster, because it also boosts the con saves. But both boost concentration, which is the aim here (so that the op can keep conjure animals up and running), so warcaser would do as well. The spell OA from warcaster wouldn't be bad to have in a small party in general, though on the other hand the plan is to conjure minions so that the bard (and the wizard) can stay as much out of the way as possible, and vicious mockery is not an amazing OA anyway.

[Bobthewizard]

Dissonant Whispers is great for your character!

I'll definitely have Dissonant Whispers early to give the barbarian opportunity attacks. Unfortunately, I can't fit in Warcaster until after that combo loses its usefulness.


In combat, you have the roles of the tank and the DPR covered, and you seem to have the BFC covered too. Do you have a buffer?

Out of combat, you have a heal, an utility caster, and obviously a face. Do you have a scout /trapfinder /door-opener?

I'm not the biggest fan of using your concentration on buffs. There are some exceptions such as bless at early levels, fly if you need it, etc. But I'd normally rather lay out AOE debuff or damage than any single target buff. Now with a party of only 3 that might change the calculation a bit. I'll see if either my bard or the wizard can fit one or two in. Any recommendations?

For scouting, we all have proficiency in stealth and perception and two of us have investigation. No one is wearing heavy armor so we all just sneak around together. I have proficiency in thieves' tools and the barbarian can knock down doors.


Rush bard 6. Take resilient con at level 4 and use one of your additional magical secrets of level 6 to take conjure animals. Later on, I would look to take heal as one of my magical secrets.

Conjure animals might be my favorite 3rd level spell. It would be great in a small party too, but it would mess up the evoker's sculpt spells. You can only sculpt out 1+ spell level so the animals would be left out or she'd have to work around them. Part of why I want spirit guardians is to replace animate objects, normally the best 5th level bard spell, since the 10 tiny silver pieces wouldn't work with a sculpted wall of fire or fireball.

[RSP]

A Magic Secret hidden gem, particularly with that party make up: Sanctuary. It’s a BA 1st level spell that doesn’t require Concentration. I’m assuming you and the Wizard will be further back than the Barb, while they’ll be in melee. Perfect for Sanctuary: cast it when the Barb is surrounded, before the enemies turn, when you and the Wiz aren’t in melee range. Most enemies, particularly the swarming mob types, don’t do well with Wis Saves. You’ll use a 1st level spell to completely deny enemy attacks and waste their turns. While also saving the Barb many more HPs than either a Healing Word or Cure Light Wounds would recover.

Also note: in an intrigue type game, it can be used creatively: not even the Royal Guard lay a hand on Hugo the Bard, even when the King orders him seized, showing the whole court who really wields power.

[Corran]

Conjure animals might be my favorite 3rd level spell. It would be great in a small party too, but it would mess up the evoker's sculpt spells. You can only sculpt out 1+ spell level so the animals would be left out or she'd have to work around them. Part of why I want spirit guardians is to replace animate objects, normally the best 5th level bard spell, since the 10 tiny silver pieces wouldn't work with a sculpted wall of fire or fireball.
Ah, good point. Well, if you are going with spirit guardians, I think you would need both an AC and a concentration boost. I am sure this will have already been suggested, but if you are all right with multiclassing, then one level of hexblade (probably followed by a second later on, maybe even in the very late game) would be of much help. Granted, you could go with moderately armored (although that would push your concentration boosting feat back to level 8, and your charisma boosts even further back), but I think the level of hexblade offers a little more. With the hexblade dip you bring your spirit guardians, AC and concentration online at character level 7 (instead of at level 8 with a pure bard), and you can start taking charisma boosts from as soon as character level 9 (instead of level 12, in comparison with a pure bard). Yes, it will delay your spellcasting by one whole level, which is not fun, but the benefits that make up for it and make me think it's worth it, is that you get access to spells like shield and armor of agathys (or hex, depending on how much you want to balance your melee effectiveness against your ranged potential (I'd probably go with armor of agathys on the premise that it does not require concentration like hex does), but also to that 1st s/r spell slot with which you can cast any of shield, healing word or whatever else you will have need of spamming. Bu on top of that, it will give you EB, and since the party is not big on single target ranged attacks, I think it would be useful for you to have it (especially since vicious mockery works better if you have AC tanks in the group, and you don't). Btw, if you decide taking that hexblade level, then I would recommend warcaster instead of resilient, while also grabbing BB as a cantrip, for strong OA's (you could even try to proc them later on with something like eyebite, though I am not sure it's worth it in such a small party, but with spirit guardians and the wizard's AoE blasting potential, I don't think it will be that uncommon for enemies to want to reposition themselves and risk an OA). Though I might still take resilient at some point down the road (probably after boosting charisma, maybe sooner if your concentration is not cutting it?). I think I am rambling at this point.

For magical secrets at hgher levels, aside for heal (which works great when you have the barbarian as a main tank in a party; which reminds me, it is probably worth it to invest in lesser/greater restoration at some point, as the easiest way for an enemy to take out a barbarian is targeting their saves -much preferable than going through their hp or ignoring them; bardic inspiration can help here, I wouldn't mind relying on a fewer number of cutting words -which again, tend to work better with AC tanks- so that I feel safer about not having the barbarian out of play or seriously hindered due to a status effect), another good one could be the find greater steed spell. Either use it to give the wizard a flying speed so that she can be not a worry during combats, or you give it to the barb to take their melee attacks into the air if necessary (better than someone having to commit their concentration -which can break- on fly), cause barbarians are melee specialists but they don't get much for their ranged attacks. Though now we are talking higher levels. Just an idea though. Oh, and someone could grab feather fall if you are utilizing the flying steed.

You know, I am looking at this party, and I am trying to think of scenarios:

You are well equipped against single big threats. The barbarian excels at that, if they can engage in melee (find greater steed, dimension door perhaps, anything else?) and if they don't take them out via saves (bardic inspiration, lesser/greater restoration). Later on you could grab heal and deal with any hp issues too. The evoker can magic missile, though she has to be careful not to get dropped (this will be a constant issue throughout every scenario; maybe she can use greater invisibility, or rely on teleports for getting out of danger, or later on you could use your flying steed for that; anything else?). I am not sure what you will be doing during such a scenario. Perhaps use some healing spell or other kind of buff on the barbarian? Something like heroism or grab a healing spell like aura of vitality? Probably there is something better to do that I can't think of. Though aside for serious casting, using your rounds with EB wouldn't be a bad idea (that is if you grab that hexblade level). Of course, if it is just one strong enemy, I don't think you have to worry too much about what you are doing, as the group is adequately equipped already for such a scenario. It will likely be strong enemy with reinforcements, so you might be able to fall back to something like spirit guardians.

Now, thinking a fight with multiple enemies, if you can make spirit guardians work (meaning if your AC/HP -mostly AC- and concentration are up to the task), and given that you have n evoker, I don't think you will have much problem if you are fighting in small spaces or if the enemies zerg you. I mean, the wizard has to be safe (and remember that she cannot safely include herself in her AoE's without taking damage), but as I said previously, that's a constant worry. Really, the most disadvantageous scenario I can think for the party, is having enemies spread around and kite you. That creates problem for the barbarian who despite their movement buff might still have problem getting into reach (how do you solve that as a group?), this could be tricky for the evoker if the enemies are spread enough for her blasting not to be very efficienct, that would be very challenging for your spirit guardians as well. Conjured animals might actually be helpful in that fringe scenario, though I don't think it's worth spending an additional magical secret just for the corner case (I mean, I would definitely like to cover that scenario, though ideally without having to spend a magical secret for it). Ranged attacks would be of help here (as well as taking cover, or having ways to create cover), so that's something I was thinking of when suggesting the hexblade level.

I am rambling wildly. Anyway, I think that if you are set on spirit guardians (I think it's a good choice as well after what you said), first order of business is to dedicate some resources on making it work well (AC boost, concentration boost). After that, think of covering your party's weaknesses (barbarian's saves, wizard's need of a good positioning, etc) and exploit any synergies (healing spell with rage, restraining with blasting, etc).

[Petrocorus]

I'm not the biggest fan of using your concentration on buffs. There are some exceptions such as bless at early levels, fly if you need it, etc. But I'd normally rather lay out AOE debuff or damage than any single target buff. Now with a party of only 3 that might change the calculation a bit. I'll see if either my bard or the wizard can fit one or two in. Any recommendations?

I was mostly thinking about Bless and Faerie Fire. You cannot have Bless before it start losing relevance, but FF is good.

However, in a 3 PC party, Haste can be very good too, the Barb can make it worthy. Heroism can be useful too.

Aura of Vitality and Healing Spirit are also good Magical Secret, since you'll be the healer.



For scouting, we all have proficiency in stealth and perception and two of us have investigation. No one is wearing heavy armor so we all just sneak around together. I have proficiency in thieves' tools and the barbarian can knock down doors.

All stealthy party is always cool.

[Keravath]

The campaign is intrigue/mystery. I wouldn't dip for combat stats given the type of campaign. That's more for dungeon crawls and getting those lore spells 2 levels late is a big deal. The evocation wizard will no doubt be focusing on damage already.

His role is "mostly face, battle field control and healer." Only one of those applies in a mystery/intrigue campaign. If is IS mostly intrigue/mystery then the social skills will be important along with role playing and there won't be much of an issue delaying the spell progression. If the other combat roles are important then a two level dip in hexblade increases the character's resilience and single target damage capabilities along with some crowd control if they take agonizing and repelling blast.

Finally, I haven't found "lore" spells (if you are referring to the divination ones) to be all that useful in most campaigns, even those with intrigue/mystery elements, since these are still usually solvable without needing a spell since most characters don't have them and in many cases where a character does have the spell they wouldn't typically prepare them.

The only reason I would avoid the two level hexblade dip in this case is if there are 3rd level spells that the party considers it essential for the lore bard to have when the characters are 5th level.

However, I've found that the bard spell list with shatter/suggestion/blindness/faerie fire/healing word/dissonant whispers supplemented by hex/shield from warlock and the additional cantrips works quite well until character level 7. In addition, if they want a melee option to go with agonizing blast they could always pick up the booming blade cantrip along with eldritch blast.

Anyway, opinions vary and I am certain it can work well either way but in a small group the added survivability and versatility provided by a 2 level hexblade dip might be very worthwhile.

[Esprit15]

Steel Wind Strike or Circle of Power. Snipe high level Paladin and Ranger spells before they get them.

[Bobthewizard]

I am not going to dip Hexblade. While I agree with the mechanics, it doesn't fit the character, and hexblade dips are so universally good on other Charisma classes that they are overdone and essentially banned at our tables via excessive mockery. At this point, I'm pretty set on moderately armored at 4 and spirit guardians for one of my level 6 magical secrets, with no multiclassing until after level 6, if any. I love this discussion though. There have been a lot of great ideas so far.


I was mostly thinking about Bless and Faerie Fire. You cannot have Bless before it start losing relevance, but FF is good.

However, in a 3 PC party, Haste can be very good too, the Barb can make it worthy. Heroism can be useful too.

Aura of Vitality and Healing Spirit are also good Magical Secret, since you'll be the healer.

All stealthy party is always cool.

For first level spells, I'm taking sleep, dissonant whispers, disguise self, feather fall, and healing word. I'll drop sleep later to make room for an extra higher level spell. Faerie fire just missed the cut but I can see replacing sleep or dissonant whispers. If I get a feather fall token I might pick up faerie fire, but since it's in a city of towers, bridges and flying coaches, both the wizard and I took feather fall.

Haste, heroism, aura of vitality, and healing spirit all use concentration so probably wouldn't make the cut in most combats for me. Haste probably makes the most sense for us in certain circumstances but we'll see if we can fit that in the wizard's spell list. It's a city adventure so we'll probably run away if we get into too much trouble. The wizard will have mark of passage which gives her a 40' dimension door once per long rest. I'll take dimension door around level 8. She'll eventually take fly, scatter and teleport.


Steel Wind Strike or Circle of Power. Snipe high level Paladin and Ranger spells before they get them.

I like your thinking. I think I like destructive wave a little better than steel wind strike but either is fine. It's about the same damage and area, but you can affect more than 6 enemies, save for half instead of miss for none, and knocked prone on a failed save. Circle of power is awesome, but again, with only 3 of us, I don't want to be using half of the party's concentration on a defensive spell.

So questions I still have:
1. given that I'm taking moderately armored at 4 and start with Cha of 18, at 8 do you recommend Cha, war caster or Resilient CON?
2. with spirit guardians at 6, what else do you recommend? Leaning towards lightning bolt at 6 and then counterspell and destructive wave at 10. Much prefer non-concentration combat spells but love hearing other ideas too.
3. after getting magical secrets at 6, what do you think of a one level sorcerer dip, either divine soul or storm, to pick up shield and absorb elements? I could use any unused higher level spell slots to upcast spirit guardians.

Thanks for all of the suggestions so far.

[RSP]

So questions I still have:
1. given that I'm taking moderately armored at 4 and start with Cha of 18, at 8 do you recommend Cha, war caster or Resilient CON?
2. with spirit guardians at 6, what else do you recommend? Leaning towards lightning bolt at 6 and then counterspell and destructive wave at 10. Much prefer non-concentration combat spells but love hearing other ideas too.
3. after getting magical secrets at 6, what do you think of a one level sorcerer dip, either divine soul or storm, to pick up shield and absorb elements? I could use any unused higher level spell slots to upcast spirit guardians.

Thanks for all of the suggestions so far.

1. Between now and 8, keep track of how often you lose Concentration, and how often you wish you had 1 more Bardic Inspiration. If the former out weighs the latter, pick up Resilient (Con). If not, up Cha. This is the best advice I can give as no one else’s table and personal play style will match yours perfectly so just be aware of what you need.

2. Sanctuary, as noted above. Non-Conc, 1st level, denies attacks and wastes enemy Actions.

3. I like a 3 level dip in DS. If doing this, you can get Sanctuary this way (freeing up MS @ 6), as well as Shield, AE and Spiritual Weapon. All good, worthwhile spells from 1-20.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Faerie fire just missed the cut but I can see replacing sleep or dissonant whispers. If I get a feather fall token I might pick up faerie fire, but since it's in a city of towers, bridges and flying coaches, both the wizard and I took feather fall.

I'd let the wizard handle the feather fall. Falling doesn't usually take place that often, and as long as you're all in a group, the wizard can get it done 9/10 times anyhow. Also, falling damage often isn't even fatal. I'd go with Faerie Fire instead. I note that you don't have any other 1st level concentration spells, and FFire is a great buff, even at higher levels, for those combats which don't quite rank using SG or another higher-level spell slot for a concentration spell. Think of it more like extra armor for your barbarian, since iit'll keep him from having to reckless attack, and thus not giving advantage to his opponents. So it's both offensive and defensive, in a way. I'd even drop Sleep before cutting out FFire.


So questions I still have:
1. given that I'm taking moderately armored at 4 and start with Cha of 18, at 8 do you recommend Cha, war caster or Resilient CON?
2. with spirit guardians at 6, what else do you recommend? Leaning towards lightning bolt at 6 and then counterspell and destructive wave at 10. Much prefer non-concentration combat spells but love hearing other ideas too.
3. after getting magical secrets at 6, what do you think of a one level sorcerer dip, either divine soul or storm, to pick up shield and absorb elements? I could use any unused higher level spell slots to upcast spirit guardians.

Thanks for all of the suggestions so far.

1. I'm a big fan of Res Con, and basically always recommend it over War caster unless the build really requires it. For a lore bard with no Shield or Absorb elements spell (although apparently counterspell at 10th level) and no hard-hitting cantrips, I can't see enough reason to take war caster at all. You'll probably have a free hand (or holding focus, which is just as good) most of the time, anyway. Res Con all the way!
2. I like destructive wave, but do you really need another blast spell at 10th? Synaptic Static does a bit less damage, but has an arguably better debuff and targets a much better save. You've only got 1 frontliner, so it shouldn't be too difficult to place the blast without hitting the barb. I'd ditch DS in favor of Find Greater Steed at 10th. Take SG and lightning bolt or counterspell at 6th, and maybe wall of force or counterspell or crusader's mantle (if the wizard takes Animate Objects) at 10th.
3. sounds good.

[Warlush]

If you don't dip hexblade I will give you 50 dollars. IRL.

[diplomancer]

I like your thinking. I think I like destructive wave a little better than steel wind strike but either is fine. It's about the same damage and area, but you can affect more than 6 enemies, save for half instead of miss for none, and knocked prone on a failed save. Circle of power is awesome, but again, with only 3 of us, I don't want to be using half of the party's concentration on a defensive spell.

A very important consideration here is that destructive wave targets Con while Steel Wind Strike targets AC. Not only are there more ways to get advantage for an attack than to impose disadvantage on a save, monsters tend to have better Con saves than AC. There is also legendary resistance to consider. I think all of these together make Steel Wind Strike better, unless you can get a lot of creatures in range. (also, rolling dice is more fun than letting the DM roll them, but that's a personal preference).

Bards don't have spells that target AC (with the notable exception of animate objects), but they do have spells that target Con, so it also improves your versatility.

Lastly, I would like to recommend the Find Greater Speed spell. So good, versatile, and fun (and if later you get Tenser's Transformation it can get very cheesy)

[Bobthewizard]

1. Between now and 8, keep track of how often you lose Concentration, and how often you wish you had 1 more Bardic Inspiration. If the former out weighs the latter, pick up Resilient (Con). If not, up Cha. This is the best advice I can give as no one else’s table and personal play style will match yours perfectly so just be aware of what you need.

That's great advice. Thanks


I'd go with Faerie Fire instead.

I agree. I'm going to try to work it in.


I like destructive wave, but do you really need another blast spell at 10th? Synaptic Static does a bit less damage, but has an arguably better debuff and targets a much better save.

Good point. Between lightning bolt and synaptic static, that's enough blasting.


If you don't dip hexblade I will give you 50 dollars. IRL.

I promise I won't dip Hexblade. Instead of sending me the money just promise that the next time you play with someone new, you'll buy them a new players handbook as a gift.


A very important consideration here is that destructive wave targets Con while Steel Wind Strike targets AC. Not only are there more ways to get advantage for an attack than to impose disadvantage on a save, monsters tend to have better Con saves than AC. There is also legendary resistance to consider. I think all of these together make Steel Wind Strike better, unless you can get a lot of creatures in range. (also, rolling dice is more fun than letting the DM roll them, but that's a personal preference).

All good points. I'm not taking either one though. See above.

As I'm looking at my progression, I seem to have defense, social, and offense covered pretty well now. I was thinking of taking pass without trace at 6 to help with stealth and then lightning bolt and counterspell at 10. I'll probably want to save 3rd level slots for hypnotic pattern or spirit guardians until I get more higher level slots so waiting on lightning bolt won't hurt too much. From 7 to 10, I'll use booming blade from my single level sorcerer dip as my primary non concentration damage.

[Keravath]

Just a quick comment but I would find Lightning Bolt far too situational in terms of its area of effect to make it a worthwhile magical secret, especially at 10th level. In addition, unless the wizard is also planning on obtaining and preparing counterspell, I would think this would be an essential pick for a 6th level magical secrets. The bard does counterspell better than anyone except an Abjuration wizard and if you NEED counterspell, it is very good to have it.

I've used counterspell a few times. One time I used on a BBEG casting shield to prevent the paladin from hitting. This allowed both of the paladin's attacks to hit, allowing them to use smites, and effectively changed the course of the fight since the target was a very hard to kill draco-lich. It can also be used to interfere with other opposing spells ... banish, dominate person, hypnotic pattern ... with such a small group, any of these which effectively lands on your group could TPK. Counterspell is at least a possibility to reduce this risk. It isn't flashy but I think it is pretty much an essential pick at level 6 (unless the wizard is planning to take and use it but the bard is better at it).

At level 10, I'd also suggest looking at Wall of Force. With a little imagination, this spell can be amazing at making difficult encounters manageable by splitting opposing forces, blocking pursuit, creating a critical bridge when you need one, using the spherical form to lock down a dragon while you deal with his minions (I used it for this one time). Bards have limited spells so I often find choosing the most versatile and useful ones can be a real advantage. (and far far better and more useful than lightning bolt).

[Aaron Underhand]

I played a lore bard with a one level wizard dip (at second level). Character reasons but I was amazed by the results..
Shield spell, familiar and other first level rituals. Cantrips, I had int 14.. feather fall .. ability to swap first level spells daily. . And the real kicker...

With first level slots covered I could learn many more great high level bard spells. Specifically keeping enhance ability and detect thoughts at 2nd level was great for non combat play..

[Bobthewizard]

Just a quick comment but I would find Lightning Bolt far too situational in terms of its area of effect to make it a worthwhile magical secret, especially at 10th level. In addition, unless the wizard is also planning on obtaining and preparing counterspell, I would think this would be an essential pick for a 6th level magical secrets. The bard does counterspell better than anyone except an Abjuration wizard and if you NEED counterspell, it is very good to have it.

I've used counterspell a few times. One time I used on a BBEG casting shield to prevent the paladin from hitting. This allowed both of the paladin's attacks to hit, allowing them to use smites, and effectively changed the course of the fight since the target was a very hard to kill draco-lich. It can also be used to interfere with other opposing spells ... banish, dominate person, hypnotic pattern ... with such a small group, any of these which effectively lands on your group could TPK. Counterspell is at least a possibility to reduce this risk. It isn't flashy but I think it is pretty much an essential pick at level 6 (unless the wizard is planning to take and use it but the bard is better at it).

At level 10, I'd also suggest looking at Wall of Force. With a little imagination, this spell can be amazing at making difficult encounters manageable by splitting opposing forces, blocking pursuit, creating a critical bridge when you need one, using the spherical form to lock down a dragon while you deal with his minions (I used it for this one time). Bards have limited spells so I often find choosing the most versatile and useful ones can be a real advantage. (and far far better and more useful than lightning bolt).

I love counterspell, but the wizard will have it. Also, our DM plays by the rules so we never know what spell is being cast. You would need to use a reaction to identify a spell, in which case you don't have a reaction for counterspell. Otherwise, you are casting counterspell blind without knowing what spell they are casting, although a shield spell would be an easy one to guess. Since the wizard will have it, I think I can wait until 10 and we'll get more use out of pass without trace.

Wall of force is my favorite level 5 spell in the game. The wizard will have it though so I don't think we'll need it twice.

I like adding lightning bolt to a bard. It helps fill one of the biggest holes in the bard spell list, with ranged damage. Synaptic static covers this but lightning bolt lets me use the far less valuable 3rd and 4th level slots. I'd normally take fireball for this role, but the wizard will have that so I'll take lightning bolt for another damage type. Find Greater Steed would normally be a much better choice but with the entire campaign taking place indoors or on tight city streets, I'm not sure how much I'd get to use it. There are lots of hippogriffs and air coaches around in Sharn but they need parked outside most of the time. I might take something else by the time I get there, though. There have been a lot of good ideas on this thread.

So here's what would I have right now at level 11 as Bard 10/Divine Soul 1:

Defense/Healing – bardic inspiration, song of rest, healing word, feather fall, cutting words, moderately armored, lesser restoration, dispel magic, shield, absorb elements, cure wounds, resilient constitution, greater restoration, counterspell

Movement – air and sea vehicles, dimension door

Social – disguise self, suggestion, guidance, modify memory, expertise persuasion and insight

Stealth – thieves’ tools, invisibility, pass without trace, expertise perception and stealth

Combat concentration – gust of wind (from Mark of Storm), hypnotic pattern, spirit guardians, polymorph

Non-concentration – vicious mockery, minor illusion, booming blade, synaptic static, lightning bolt

[Reynaerde]

given that I'm taking moderately armored at 4 and start with Cha of 18, at 8 do you recommend Cha, war caster or Resilient CON?I would seriously consider CHA, but since I noticed that you have dissonant whispers and booming blade, I would personally take war caster over Res CON.

I like your overview of build items for each of your roles! Maybe I should invest a bit more in stealthy stuff for my bard as well.

[Bobthewizard]

I would seriously consider CHA, but since I noticed that you have dissonant whispers and booming blade, I would personally take war caster over Res CON.

I like your overview of build items for each of your roles! Maybe I should invest a bit more in stealthy stuff for my bard as well.

Level 8 ASI is up in the air. CHA, Res. CON, and Warcaster are all in the running. I'll decide when I get there. It depends on your party if your bard needs more stealthy stuff. Based on this process, I'm starting to like bard more than I thought I would. They can fill in almost any gaps in a party.

The other thing I needed to do was look at combat action economy. Keeping with the level 11 goal, I broke the abilities into concentration, action, bonus action and reactions.

Concentration – gust of wind, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, spirit guardians, polymorph

Action – vicious mockery, minor illusion, booming blade, synaptic static, lightning bolt, lesser restoration, greater restoration, cure wounds, dispel magic, dimension door

Bonus Action – bardic inspiration, healing word, move gust of wind

Reaction – cutting words, shield, absorb elements, feather fall, counterspell

Looking at this, I think I’m pretty happy with my spells and feats through level 8 - lore bard at 3, moderately armored at 4, spirit guardians and pass without trace at 6, one level of divine soul sorcerer at 7. At bard 8, I’ll either take resilient CON or CHA to 20. For magical secrets at bard 10, I’ll take counterspell and then see what else I need. Maybe find greater steed or lightning bolt. If I find I have a lot of bonus actions open, I might consider sanctuary, spiritual weapon or even misty step. I’m still open to other suggestions.