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kemmotar
2007-10-14, 11:15 AM
Are there any level 1 spells worth getting innate spell for?

For those that do not know the feat it allows a caster to cast a spell at will as many times as he wants. It requires still spell, silent spell and quicken spell. It increases the spell level by 8 levels and the spell becomes a spell like ability.

So are there any spells that are conceivably useful for this feat? Presumably 1st or 2nd...

mostlyharmful
2007-10-14, 11:20 AM
just get an item, giving up a ninth level slot for charm person or magic missile as well as a high level feat slot seems like the definition of insanity to me. While wizard x can cast grease all the live long day wizard y can gate in a bound Solar and learn chain spell woot:smallcool: , I know which i'd want.

GnomeNinja
2007-10-14, 11:21 AM
What begins with "M" and ends with "agic Missile"!

Green Bean
2007-10-14, 11:29 AM
What begins with "M" and ends with "agic Missile"!

Nothing worth taking... :smallamused:

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-14, 11:56 AM
Where is that feat? In crystalkeep, it is completely different. I know that they do make errors but this is just so vastly different:

Innate Spell [Metamagic] (PGF p39)
Pre: Silent Spell, Still Spell
Benefit: Choose a spell you know. You may use this spell 3 times per day as a Spell-Like Ability (i.e., no need for verbal, somatic, & material components). You lose one spell slot of an identical level to your Innate Spell.

You may take this Feat more than once, choosing a different spell each
time.

Kaelik
2007-10-14, 11:59 AM
Where is that feat? In crystalkeep, it is completely different. I know that they do make errors but this is just so vastly different:

That is Innate Spell from Players Guide to Faerun. He is reffering to Innate Spell from Complete Arcane. If you look at Split Ray it is also very different from Faerun to Complete Arcane.

UserClone
2007-10-14, 12:02 PM
My wizard would choose magic missile, but for purely fluff reasons- he is a level 5 Force Missile Mage. Besides, what does Batman care for the loss of one lousy slot? Just scribe more scrolls.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-14, 12:04 PM
Where is that feat? In crystalkeep, it is completely different. I know that they do make errors but this is just so vastly different:

the crystal keep version of the metamagic is insanely broken... no component or focus, woot, give me shapechange and animate dead and true seeing. if there's no xp then it gets even more rediculous. The eight level for an at will ability is sucktastic.

streakster
2007-10-14, 12:26 PM
Expeditious Retreat. Feel free to permanently run around at +30 your base speed.

That's just my two gold.

EDIT: Dont think this is a good bargain though. I mean, losing a 9th level slot? Yikes...

Hario
2007-10-14, 12:35 PM
Alter Self at Will is nice for say a fly speed, but thats nothing compared to divine metamagic + persist, In no way is 8 spell levels worth anything at will of a 1st level spell, if you want an ability at will, a warlock probably has an invocation similar to what you are looking for (sure not at powerful at 1 level of warlock) but you keep your 9th level spells) Also Shapechange will give you way more for your spell level than innate spell will ever do.

Kyeudo
2007-10-14, 12:36 PM
Maybe True Strike, but I wouldn't.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-14, 12:41 PM
you wouldn't be able to quicken it unless you took ANOUTHER feat, so you'd use a standerd action for that true strike

The Glyphstone
2007-10-14, 12:43 PM
Miracle.

Unfortunately, you need to be a 33rd level Wizard to get it (lvl32 wizard to have enough Epic Feats to spend on Improved Spell Capacity, then another feat for Innate Spell) - at which point nobody cares, because you are already broken via Epic Magic.

UserClone
2007-10-14, 12:43 PM
Yipe. Now if only it didn't cost an action. Hmm...Quickened True Strike as an at-will ability...so THAT'S how Chuck Norris does it!

Aquillion
2007-10-14, 12:50 PM
Hey, wait. Can you use a metamagic rod on the spell before applying Innate Spell? Rods don't increase the spell's level, so you could have, say, an Innate Quickened True Strike.

What about Divine Metamagic cheese? Does that still apply here? Spending eight turning attempts to get Miracle or Time Stop at-will would certainly be worth it... Failing that, if you had one of the various abilities that reduces metamagic cost, you might be able to do a level 2 spell, or a level 3 spell if you stack two of them somehow...

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-10-14, 12:58 PM
silent image, it is one of the most versital low level spells ever, and it's the best if you have an imagination and like to make your dm made.

The_Snark
2007-10-14, 01:22 PM
Hey, wait. Can you use a metamagic rod on the spell before applying Innate Spell? Rods don't increase the spell's level, so you could have, say, an Innate Quickened True Strike.

What about Divine Metamagic cheese? Does that still apply here? Spending eight turning attempts to get Miracle or Time Stop at-will would certainly be worth it... Failing that, if you had one of the various abilities that reduces metamagic cost, you might be able to do a level 2 spell, or a level 3 spell if you stack two of them somehow...

First- No... you could use the rod to quicken the spell-like ability, but that wouldn't make it always quickened.

Divine Metamagic doesn't seem to work here; it applies every time you cast the spell. I suppose it means you could cast it as a spell-like ability, without verbal/somatic components. And I don't really know of anything that reduces metamagic cost, outside of Incanatrix and epic stuff. It's something they shy away from. Arcane Thesis, maybe, but that's it.

I've always felt that getting a Cure spell at will could be worth it, but probably not unless your cleric already had Silent/Still Spell.

Kaelik
2007-10-14, 03:50 PM
Alter Self at Will is nice for say a fly speed, but thats nothing compared to divine metamagic + persist, In no way is 8 spell levels worth anything at will of a 1st level spell, if you want an ability at will, a warlock probably has an invocation similar to what you are looking for (sure not at powerful at 1 level of warlock) but you keep your 9th level spells) Also Shapechange will give you way more for your spell level than innate spell will ever do.

Or you could use an eighth level slot to cast Extended Elemental Body and get 40 hours of Flight at 60ft (120ft to hustle), perfect maneuverability, oh, and immunity to sleep/stun/crits and precision damage/paralysis. But that's just gravy.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-14, 08:43 PM
Well, with the relatively recent Reserve feats, Innate Spell is a lot less attractive than it was. Generally, anything that might look worthwhile for Innate Spell (e.g., a Cure spell) is going to have a reserve feat that more than covers the role.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-10-14, 08:46 PM
just become an archmage and take high arcane for a Su:, I know not what you asked on the thread, but this just seems a hole lot easier and you can get a higher level spell.

Aquillion
2007-10-14, 08:48 PM
First- No... you could use the rod to quicken the spell-like ability, but that wouldn't make it always quickened.

Divine Metamagic doesn't seem to work here; it applies every time you cast the spell. I suppose it means you could cast it as a spell-like ability, without verbal/somatic components. And I don't really know of anything that reduces metamagic cost, outside of Incanatrix and epic stuff. It's something they shy away from. Arcane Thesis, maybe, but that's it.

I've always felt that getting a Cure spell at will could be worth it, but probably not unless your cleric already had Silent/Still Spell.Why wouldn't a rod work? Innate Spell says "Choose a spell you can cast." It doesn't say "choose a spell you can cast without using items". Using a metamagic rod, I can cast a quickened true strike, which is a level 1 spell. Therefore, I can apply Innate Spell to that quickened true strike and give up an 9th-level slot.

Come to think of it, this would also work with Divine Metamagic or Lyric Spell (even though Lyric Spell fixed most of the abuses in Divine Metamagic, as long as you have a level 9 slot, you could theoretically take a level 1 spell and apply 8 levels worth of Lyric Spell metamagic to it. Therefore, that 8-level-metamagiced level 1 spell is a "spell you can cast", it's technically level 1, and you can get the ability to cast it at will with Innate Spell.)

BardicDuelist
2007-10-14, 08:49 PM
The only thing I can think of is True Strike. With Quicken SLA it could be really potent. I mean, +20 for two feats and a spell slot is pretty darn good.

Dausuul
2007-10-14, 09:03 PM
Why wouldn't a rod work? Innate Spell says "Choose a spell you can cast." It doesn't say "choose a spell you can cast without using items". Using a metamagic rod, I can cast a quickened true strike, which is a level 1 spell. Therefore, I can apply Innate Spell to that quickened true strike and give up an 9th-level slot.

Come to think of it, this would also work with Divine Metamagic or Lyric Spell (even though Lyric Spell fixed most of the abuses in Divine Metamagic, as long as you have a level 9 slot, you could theoretically take a level 1 spell and apply 8 levels worth of Lyric Spell metamagic to it. Therefore, that 8-level-metamagiced level 1 spell is a "spell you can cast", it's technically level 1, and you can get the ability to cast it at will with Innate Spell.)

IIRC, Innate Spell gives you a spell-like ability, not an actual spell. Metamagic rods (and metamagic feats in general) don't work on SLAs.

EndgamerAzari
2007-10-14, 09:21 PM
I'm not an expert on this feat, but these folks (http://www.sundayat10.com/index.php?num=227) seem to have a few good ideas....

bugsysservant
2007-10-14, 09:46 PM
I'm not an expert on this feat, but these folks (http://www.sundayat10.com/index.php?num=227) seem to have a few good ideas....

Are those photoshoped charlie the unicorns?

Anyway, if you can get quicken true strike for a ninth level slot + two feats, that might be worth it. Otherwise, I'd say no. By RAW, an at will first level spell item costs 2000 gp, and while no DM would ever allow that for true strike, its still kind of pricey.

Mewtarthio
2007-10-14, 09:53 PM
Anyway, if you can get quicken true strike for a ninth level slot + two feats, that might be worth it.

Quicken SLA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility) only works thrice per day.

bugsysservant
2007-10-14, 10:00 PM
Quicken SLA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility) only works thrice per day.

Yeah, I would skip it then. Or, if you can apply metamagic, go for a stilled ray of frost FTW :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2007-10-14, 10:25 PM
IIRC, Innate Spell gives you a spell-like ability, not an actual spell. Metamagic rods (and metamagic feats in general) don't work on SLAs.

Yes, but what he's saying is that, holding a Rod of Quicken, you can cast a quickened true strike. It's a spell you can cast. Therefore you prepare true strike, pick up the rod, and take the feat. Since you could cast quickened true strike as a level 1 spell, because of the rod, you can learn it as an SLA. You can then throw away the rod and never prepare true strike again.

You're not using the metamagic rod on the SLA, you're using it on the spell that you turn into the SLA.

Chronos
2007-10-15, 01:00 AM
Yes, but what he's saying is that, holding a Rod of Quicken, you can cast a quickened true strike. It's a spell you can cast.The problem with that is that "Quickened True Strike" is not a spell. "True Strike" is a spell, and Quicken is just a thing which modifies it a bit. If another caster wanted to counterspell your Quickened True Strike, he could just use a plain, ordinary True Strike (or a Silenced True Strike, or whatever). And if you used a Quickened True Strike for your SLA, you'd just get a regular True Strike.

kamikasei
2007-10-15, 01:09 AM
The problem with that is that "Quickened True Strike" is not a spell. "True Strike" is a spell, and Quicken is just a thing which modifies it a bit. If another caster wanted to counterspell your Quickened True Strike, he could just use a plain, ordinary True Strike (or a Silenced True Strike, or whatever). And if you used a Quickened True Strike for your SLA, you'd just get a regular True Strike.

I agree that it's an illegitimate and hell-spawned monstrosity of an idea; I just wanted it criticized accurately, not on the misunderstanding that the only wrong thing in the idea was trying to metamagic a spell-like ability. It's so much more wrong than that...

Aquillion
2007-10-15, 05:15 AM
All right, all right. For a better option...

Might I suggest Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm)?

No, seriously. To be able to get it as an innate spell, you must be able to cast a level 9th spell, so you're at least level 17. Therefore, your mounts will last 34 hours. You can summon one mount every 6 seconds, or 10 a minute, or 600 an hour. Since we do have to sleep, let's just spend 10 hours summoning horses. This gives us 6000 horses to work with, or 18,000 if we want to spend 30 hours... untrained in anything but riding, granted, but they're still going to serve us willingly and well, and will go in the right direction if we make loud noises and spook them well enough.

Now look up the stampede rules.

Yes, there are better ways to get a horde of animals for a stampede... but this has style, and given a bit of time you can produce a small stampede whenever you want, even in the middle of a dungeon. I like to imagine the number of creative solutions to problems that you can come up with using the ability to pull infinite horses out of thin air. ("Ok, you two hold the door, and I'll cram horses into the room from above until everyone inside has suffocated.")

Also, the horses all leave their bit and bridle and riding saddle behind when they disappear. Just in case you wanted 6,000 riding saddles for something. The saddles are worth 10 gp, while the bit and bridles are worth 2 gp. The saddles also weigh 25 pounds, so your 6,000 horses will leave behind 75 tons worth of saddles. Selling them might be a tad difficult, at that.

EDIT: Actually, can horses even stampede in D&D? Oh well. Screw the rules, I have 18,000 horses.

Laesin
2007-10-15, 12:12 PM
Also, the horses all leave their bit and bridle and riding saddle behind when they disappear.

Where are you getting this bit from? If the equipment comes with the spell it goes with the spell.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-15, 12:24 PM
Well, if you are not of good alignment and have high ranks in bluff you can sell the horses at a severely reduced cost and control the world economically.

Ramza00
2007-10-15, 12:30 PM
the crystal keep version of the metamagic is insanely broken... no component or focus, woot, give me shapechange and animate dead and true seeing. if there's no xp then it gets even more rediculous. The eight level for an at will ability is sucktastic.

the FR version also has more text in its description such as requiring a focus for any material components (the focus costs 50 times the components cost) and can't be done with XP spells.

Hario
2007-10-15, 12:33 PM
Well, if you are not of good alignment and have high ranks in bluff you can sell the horses at a severely reduced cost and control the world economically.

you mean 'rent' the horses, since you'd claim to be god of horses and you force them back after their allotted time.

Also I could see something working for an empowered create water, doing 60 gallons of water each round, you could be a druid who wants to refill our oceans... xD

Ramza00
2007-10-15, 12:34 PM
In epic play Heroics as an innate spell is a good feat for a gish. Depending on your interpretations of multiple heroics (use a normal feat to grab innate spell by the embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos trick)

The multiple interpertations are as follows

You never can gain the same effect twice according to the rules. Instead a spell duration just increases. Thus is the effect
*the fact you are getting a fighter bonus feat
*that individual fighter bonus feat

Person_Man
2007-10-15, 12:55 PM
Not in my opinion, especially since Still Spell and Silent Spell are usually a waste of feats as well.

FYI, using the Kobold Sorcerer substitution levels from Races of the Dragon allows you to convert one of your spell slots into a Spell Like ability, and the spell level you can convert scales up as you gain caster levels. As others have implied, it works great with Quicken Spell Like Ability. Even if it can only be used 3 times per day, its still a huge action advantage.