If you're going Gestalt Cleric and some non-psionic magic user,which is best and why?

[MatrixStone93]

Cloistered Cleric of knowledge and two other things but I ran out of title space. Not going melee here, just pure caster. As for the "too strong" thing, my table allows OP bull**** if you have an interesting character concept to justify it, promise not to break the story, not to do smart people stuff outside of designated puzzle scenes, and not to flex too hard on the tier 12 crappy swordsman in your party.

Cloistered Clerics are the guys who have less good melee in return for better casting and a free Knowledge domain regardless of deity, or something, right? Haven't played one in years, sorry.

I was thinking either Sorceror CloiCleric because they both want high Cha, or Wizard ClCleric because Wizard, or Warlock ClCleric because Cha is good for them too and the whole "holy power plus demon power" thing could have an easy time leading to an interesting character backstory(what if you Demonic Pact'd a deity? Made some promise to a god to serve him and give him your soul and live up to his ideals in return for power? Can that even be done?)

While the wizard or sorceror plus cleric guy... what kind of backstory could justify that? Guy who wants to learn all the magic because he does? Amazing super cool comically handsome sorceror favoured by a certain diety so hard he gets to do cleric stuff for that god too? Orphan guy raised in a temple went to wizard college and secretly praises his god in a college where that's either forbidden or looked down on, struggling to hold onto his faith and ideals in that hostile environment and the battlefield/dungeons/wherever else his adventures take him? Okay that last one could be cool.

[smasher0404]

First, I'd recommend you consider what a second casting class is actually bringing to the table. You have a finite amount of actions you can take on a turn, so you'd end up leaving most of your resources on the table. A more passive class may be a stronger choice from a pure power perspective, allowing you to dedicate your spell slots to more active abilities.

Cloistered Clerics aren't necessarily better casters than clerics, but trade raw melee prowess (like Heavy Armor Proficiency, HD, and BaB) for the Knowledge Domain, a Bardic Knowledge-like feature, and extra skill points.

If you are set on using another casting class for your other side here's what I'd consider off the top of my head:

1) Sha'ir (Dragon Compendium): The Sha'ir is an interesting arcane class that benefits from the Cloistered Cleric chassis. The class casts off the Sorcerer/Wizard list and needs to make Diplomacy checks to retrieve their spells. In exchange, they can retrieve spells that they don't know but have seen cast and identified. The Cloistered Cleric chassis alleviates the skill cost of the class, and the Sha'ir's charisma focus is probably the best arcane casting stat you're going to get, fueling Turn Undead which can be used for all sorts of juicy things. Sha'ir, in particular, benefits more from a secondary casting class, giving more immediate options when you don't have your spells retrieved (and it's semi-spontaneous nature means that it can provide most of the utility spells for the other side). An envoy of a god who negotiates with the powers that be for spells sounds like an interesting concept as well.

2) Sorcerer (PHB) : If Dragon Compendium is off the table, Sorcerer brings the same things to the table but worse. While you get your spells in a less round-about fashion, you have a narrower range of spells known (lacking to ability to retrieve spells unknown). You get the juicy Sorcerer exclusive spells however, and not dealing with the Sha'ir's mechanics does mean less book-keeping. Probably the simplest option if you are picking a second casting class.

3) Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror): Clerics and Dread Necromancers make the best necromancers. Clerics get access to Animate Dead sooner than the Dread Necromancer which means you are accessing that schtick sooner, and Dread Necromancers get actual class features, like Negative Energy Burst, and a Fear Aura. Clerics can fill-in the weird blanks in the Dread Necromancer spell-list, and the Dread Necromancer features make the Cleric side better at making Undead. For extra cheese, a Neutral Cleric//Dread Necromancer of a weird enough cause can take Turn Undead on their Cleric side and Rebuke Undead on their Dread Necromancer side for two pools of uses to fuel Divine feats.

4) Druid (PHB): Druids and Clerics are quite similar, and that means you lose a lot less than taking other classes. Druids can cast in armor as well, meaning you aren't giving up that benefit of Divine casting. Cleric spells help you gish it up if needed, and can buff your animal companion in ways that Druid spells can't. Druid Spells can help provide a bit more direct fire power through more nature-based spells, plus grants access to Owl's Insight (Spell Compendium) which boosts your casting stat by a lot. In addition, since they are both Wis based, you remain SAD.

5) Binder (Tome of Magic): Technically not a casting class, but still very magic-themed. Binders provide a lot of passive abilities, or abilities with cooldowns. Binders benefit but are not reliant on good charisma scores which is a decent secondary stat for clerics as stated previously. Pact-Making has a very occult theme, and can synergize thematically with worshipping one of the darker gods.

6) Wizard (PHB): Just play an Archivist (Heroes of Horror), it's basically a divine wizard anyways.

7) Archivist (Heroes of Horror): Archivists and Clerics have too much overlap, I don't see them being particularly good as part of gestalt.

8) Death Master (Dragon Compendium) Not a serious suggestion, but just a neat bit of Trivia. The lore of the Death Master class is that they are all worshippers of Orcus, but they are Int-based Arcane spellcasters. Don't make for particularly good gestalt in this case, but I could definitely see a character concept based around it. (Also they get Animate Dead even earlier than Clerics).

9) Bard (PHB) : Does a surprisingly good job. Definitely has a lot of overlap (Lore and Bardic Knowledge are basically the same feature). However, Bards get a bunch of neat spells and Bardic Music both buffs pretty well with some investment, and can be used to fuel a lot of cool things as well. You can continue to cast in Light Armor without any spell failure, gain a couple of weapon proficiencies, and gain access to Glibness. I'd consider picking up the Healing Hymn alternate class feature (Complete Champion) which fits thematically, and boosts the power of your cure spells allowing you to save more spell slots for other things.

[AvatarVecna]

Okay so Cloistered Cleric has a semi-problem where it wants good Int, Wis, and Cha (for knowledge, casting, and turning respectively). If you think 6 skill points is enough to play around with and you want to use channeling feats, you should go Wis/Cha with middling Int, and thus Sorcerer, Warlock, or Favored Soul (which is less terrible than usual because your Wis will be good anyway, and the FS' spontaneous casting gives you a whole lot of often-useful spells you don't necessarily need to prepare everyday). If you're wanting to play into the "wizened sage" trope or maybe you don't wanna be tempted to abuse DMM, you could go Int/Wis with middling Cha, and go for Wizard or Archivist instead; Wizard gets free metamagic now and then (extra-useful on a double-caster, particularly late-game), and has one of the best lists in the game (as well as feat support in most books), while Archivist has some neat features and can put in work to take spells from any list.

If I were doing it, I'd probably do something like this:

Middle-Aged Grey Elf

Cleric 10 (Cloistered)/Contemplative 1/Cleric +9 | Wizard 20 (Eidetic Spellcaster/Elven Generalist 1)

Skills:
Concentration 23
Diplomacy 23
K (Arcana) 23
K (A&E) 5
K (Dungeoneering) 23
K (Geography) 5
K (History) 23
K (Local) 23
K (Nature) 22
K (N&R) 5
K (Religion) 23
K (The Planes) 23
Sense Motive 5
Spellcraft 23


Stats (lvl 1, 32 pb, pre-adjust): Str 10/Dex 13/Con 11/Int 17/Wis 14/Cha 11
Stats (lvl 1): Str 7/Dex 14/Con 8/Int 20/Wis 15/Cha 12
Stats (lvl 4): Str 7/Dex 14/Con 8/Int 20/Wis 16/Cha 12
Stats (lvl 8): Str 7/Dex 14/Con 8/Int 20/Wis 17/Cha 12
Stats (lvl 12): Str 7/Dex 14/Con 8/Int 20/Wis 18/Cha 12
Stats (lvl 16): Str 7/Dex 14/Con 8/Int 20/Wis 19/Cha 12
Stats (lvl 20): Str 7/Dex 14/Con 8/Int 20/Wis 20/Cha 12

Domains (ECL gained, abilities, notable spells):
Knowledge (Cleric 1)
Puts all knowledge skills on your class list
CL +1 for divinations
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Divination, True Seeing, Find The Path, Discern Location

Time (Cleric 1)
"Improved Initiative" bonus feat
Haste, Freedom Of Movement, Permanency, Contingency, Foresight (lvl 8!), Time Stop

Truth (Cleric 1)
CL +1 for divinations (builds on Knowledge domain)
Sense Motive +[cleric level]
Detect Thoughts (lvl 1!), True Seeing, Discern Location

Planning (Contemplative)
"Extend Spell" bonus feat (taking this late discourages early-game Persistent shenanigans)
Detect Scrying, Greater Scrying, Discern Location, Time Stop



Feats:
HD 1: Collegiate Wizard
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
Flaw 1: Maximize Spell
Flaw 1: Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Passions)
HD 3: Mastery Of Day And Night
Wizard 5: Spontaneous Divination ACF (replaces bonus feat)
HD 6: "Master Of Knowledge" or "Knowledge Devotion"
HD 9: Miser With Magic (extra-useful on double-caster)
Wizard 10: Quicken Spell
HD 12: Craft Contingent Spell
HD 15: Craft Wand
Wizard 15: Persistent Spell
HD 18: Magical Artisan (Craft Wand)
Wizard 20: Twin Spell


You can spontaneously cast powerful divinations and healing spells, letting you use your main slots to become a super-support caster. You've got decent Init, you've got knowledge skills for days (as well as decent Diplomacy), you've got a surprisingly good SM check given that it's not a class skill, and you have absolutely vast knowledge of two of the best lists in the game. A handful of metamagic, and the ability to make healing wands to support your casting, and you end up a powerhouse support caster.

[DMVerdandi]

Spirit shaman fam.
Fluff it as your character also gaining knowledge and power from dead ancestors. Could worship Akasha, the world spirit, and pulls spells by drawing in it's divine wisdom.
This is so Shaman King:smallcool:

[Falontani]

Cleric/warlock: worship either a devil, a demon, or perhaps a fey and get your arcane power from it as well.
Cleric/wizard: go archivist/wizard and be the sage
Cleric/druid or cleric/spirit shaman: you are the native American shaman trope
Cleric/sorcerer or cleric/Dragon fire adept: be a Dragon blood race (or Kobold) and be one with Dragon kind
Cleric/bard or cleric/beguiler: trickery cleric of knowledge. Your actually a rogue without knives.
Cleric/favored soul: God chosen priest of Divine power
Cleric/dread necromancer: you are the immortal king of undeath
Cleric/death master: worship orcus!
Cleric/wu jen or shugenja: middle eastern shrine priest.
Cleric/War mage: kudos, your still crap

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You'll probably want to prestige out of Cloistered Cleric, and take something that gets class features as your gestalt class. I'd probably go with Incarnate or Spirit Shaman or Binder, or maybe (Unarmed) Swordsage focusing on diamond mind and desert sun boosts and counters. What exactly do you want this character to do?

[Ramza00]

Going Wildshape Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is an option. Especfially with a 3 level dip into Master of Many Forms.

MoMF 2 gives you Large Size and you can choose Giants with your wildshape. Thus forms like Cave Troll and Firbolg are now available. And MoMF 3 gives you Monstrous Humanoid and thus War Troll. Cave Troll and War Troll have Dazing Blow which has a save DC of 10 + 1/2 Racial HD + Con Modifier.

Furthermore all your magic items besides weapons and armor will automatically resize if you set them down, wildshape, and then pick them up again. You can always create weapons that work with medium and large size. Armor is more expensive but remember you also get the natural armor bonus of your troll / giant forms. The Cave Troll +11 NA plus the Bracers of Armor or an ally casting Mage Armor +4 is better armor than you normally can get. Furthermore you can wear a robe and then use Greater Magic Vestment on the Robe and Shield. War Troll boosts this up to +14 NA

Combine that with Full BAB, Good Reflex Save, and 5th level wizard + ranger spells.


------

Now there are plenty of other good options besides this but my point here is you have options.

[FearlessGnome]

Ultimately the most important thing is having fun. I'm sure your cloistered cleric would benefit from full BAB, but personally I'd go with sorcerer and then take levels in Geomancer. It only advances one side, so is not forbidden with standard gestalt rules, but it allows you to switch back and forth between Arcane and Divine as you wish at the moment of casting - as well as letting you be SAD. The flavour is a better fit for Druid//Sorc (Which is my favourite character I ever played), but Cleric//Sorc can pull it off just as well with the right god/domains. Take the Dynamic Priest feat and you can base everything off of Charisma - bonus spells, DCs and Turning attempts.

[Anthrowhale]

The overpowered choice is Chaotic<any> Human Archivist//Abyssal Specialist (DotU) Wizard (Aligned Spellcaster[Chaotic] Dragon#357) taking Uncanny Forethought (EofE) at level 1 and Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) at level 3.

Archivist and Wizard are each Int focused.
Uncanny Forethought means you can spontaneously cast several spells you know/day.
Aligned Spellcaster implies every spell except lawful spells are [chaotic].
Abyssal Specialist means every [chaotic] spell is in your school.
Theurgic Specialist means caster level = 2x character level.

Altogether, you can spontaneously cast virtually any spell with double normal caster level and a high save DC.

Of course, you can do even more with prestige classes and using Cloistered Cleric instead of Archivist is fine.

[Jack_Simth]

First, I'd recommend you consider what a second casting class is actually bringing to the table. You have a finite amount of actions you can take on a turn, so you'd end up leaving most of your resources on the table. A more passive class may be a stronger choice from a pure power perspective, allowing you to dedicate your spell slots to more active abilities.Seconded. Something like Swordsage (Tome of Battle), Ninja (Complete Adventurer), or even Monk (Core) that gives a bunch of Wisdom-based passive or small action abilities would mostly work better.

[MatrixStone93]

The overpowered choice is Chaotic<any> Human Archivist//Abyssal Specialist (DotU) Wizard (Aligned Spellcaster[Chaotic] Dragon#357) taking Uncanny Forethought (EofE) at level 1 and Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) at level 3.

Archivist and Wizard are each Int focused.
Uncanny Forethought means you can spontaneously cast several spells you know/day.
Aligned Spellcaster implies every spell except lawful spells are [chaotic].
Abyssal Specialist means every [chaotic] spell is in your school.
Theurgic Specialist means caster level = 2x character level.

Altogether, you can spontaneously cast virtually any spell with double normal caster level and a high save DC.

Of course, you can do even more with prestige classes and using Cloistered Cleric instead of Archivist is fine.

That... sounds too good to be true.

What, do I open a new tab to a searchable database of all DND 3.5e spells ever and just... have access to all of them as soon as I either hit level one or level up enough to get the feats you mentioned?

and how does replacing Archivist with CloiCleric change this build?

[Ramza00]

and how does replacing Archivist with CloiCleric change this build?
Only thing you change is
1) a marginal decrease in spells known (which is not really a problem since you have such abundance the value added for even more abundance is not much value add) , and
2) Cloistered Cleric runs off Wisdom, Wizard runs off Int. You need 17+ Int to do Uncanny Forethought in the first place and the more Int you get the better it gets. That said there are diminishing returns of Int 20+ for with a 20 Int you can spontaneously do 5 spells per day. Sure more spontaneous spells per day is gravy but you could also just not prepare 1 spell slot of each level [which you have to do anyway with Uncanny Forethought] and use the traditional wizard method of it takes 10 mins to fill that empty spell slot. Thus the value of getting 6 or 7 spontaneous spells vs 5 spontaneous spells but 1 or 2 spells takes 10 minutes of preparation is a real world marginal difference.




That... sounds too good to be true.

What, do I open a new tab to a searchable database of all DND 3.5e spells ever and just... have access to all of them as soon as I either hit level one or level up enough to get the feats you mentioned?
Uncanny Forethought is insane in general but there is other similar abilities in 3.5 and pathfinder, just not as good as the beautiful Uncanny Forethought.

[Anthrowhale]

What, do I open a new tab to a searchable database of all DND 3.5e spells ever and just... have access to all of them as soon as I either hit level one or level up enough to get the feats you mentioned?

Well, you must scribe the spell into your spellbook/prayerbook first.


and how does replacing Archivist with CloiCleric change this build?

There's a strong case for clerics not knowing their spells, at least for the purpose of something like Uncanny Forethought. On the other hand, it sets you up to take Dweomerkeeper which combines with Uncanny Forethought to allow you to cast as a standard action any wizard spell without components ... like XP or material costs.

W.r.t. Ramza's point about the number of spontaneous spells, you can always increase the number by taking Versatile Spellcaster which also effectively doubles the number of top level spells you have access to daily.

Optimized gestalts are easily excessive.

[skunk3]

Personally I'd think less about having an unkillable, godly character and think more about a really interesting concept, flavor-wise. In a gestalt game your party is already going to be crazy powerful anyway so there's no point in going for broke(n).

If you love spamming Eldritch Blasts (boring but pretty effective) you could take the Enlightened Spirit prestige class. In a non-gestalt game it is awful and should absolutely be avoided unless it's for specific flavor/RP purposes, but in a gestalt game it's tasty. Some of the blast essences you get are sweet, and anything that you don't like from that PrC you can retrain just like any other invocation. I am playing a gestalt character right now who is throwing around 20d6 blasts, which doesn't seem like a lot at epic level, but when you consider the fact that they are unlimited and you can use some really useful blast shapes, it's nice. If you plan on crafting, taking Warlock to level 12 is a good idea.

Cloistered Cleric has a lot of options... personally I think that the Binder from ToM would be a cool fit with a Cloistered Cleric, flavor-wise and also for CHA synergy. Like someone said before, it doesn't really matter how many things you can POTENTIALLY do in the game, if you are in combat you are limited by actions so instead of taking levels in two spellcasting classes I'd take one full casting class on one side and something else on the other. What I'd do is Binder 20 on one side of the gestalt and CC + some Cleric-y PrC on the other. (Church Inquisitor perhaps? That character would be like a really eccentric detective who talks to 'voices in his head' that are actually more or less the souls of powerful beings he has compelled to serve him lol)