Starting a new 3.5 campaign soon, and I had trouble that is now [RESOLVED]

[Arkhios]

Note: The books we're allowed to use are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide (for the few prestige classes in there), Expanded Psionics Handbook (classes, prestige classes, and feats only), Deities and Demigods (feats and domains only), Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting (the book's written specifically for 3.5 D&D). Then there are those Player's Guides for each adventure path, of course.

Namely, the problem is how I should distribute my (rolled) stats, and why one option would be better than the other.

The character will start as a Psion, and the race is likely human, although it could be a half-elf too; in either case, relevant feats at 1st level would be Psionic Body and Psionic Talent. If I keep human, the extra feat would be mostly for flavor and doesn't do much else.

As primarily a "caster", the character's strength, intelligence, and charisma scores are all set in stone, and I won't change them.

What I'm trying to decide is whether I should go with a), b), or c):


a) Str 11, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 7
b) Str 11, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 7
c) Str 11, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 7


Whichever I choose, my plan is to make a Kineticist 3/EvokerWizard* 3/Cerebremancer X (*Non-specialist, for the sheer utility value that a standard wizard can provide prohibited schools Abjuration and Conjuration, because I can patch up the most relevant "lost" spells with powers that are much better (imho)).

With a) I would eventually qualify for Narrow Mind and Psionic Meditation feats (both require Wis at least 13), but I wonder if either of them is absolutely necessary.
With b) I would eventually have slightly better hit points, and qualify for feats like Rapid Metabolism and Mind Over Body, though neither is a Psionic Feat and wouldn't add to my hit point reserves through Psionic Body feat. Alternatively I could just pick Expanded Knowledge a couple of times and choose something funny from other classes. Like Hostile Empathic Transfer :smallbiggrin:
With c) I would have considerably better AC, Initiative, and Reflex saves, as well as better ranged attack modifier (I'd use rays and the like quite often).

[Trandir]

What level will this PC be?

Also why do you want 11 strength instead of 10?

[Arkhios]

What level will this PC be?

Also why do you want 11 strength instead of 10?

We're starting at level 1, and the campaign spans through 16 levels.

Str 11 gives better carrying capacity than Str 10.

I didn't plan to increase it, wherever I put the score. Besides, 10-11 provides the same modifier to relevant rolls anyway, and as such it's irrelevant anywhere else, except in Strength (or as a spellcasting requirement).

In general, an odd score is best used as Strength (or as Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma if it grants you access to higher level spells and/or powers: 11 through 14 if you're a paladin or ranger, 11 through 16 if you're a bard or psychic warrior, and 11 through 19 if you're any other spellcaster/manifester. Beyond that, I'd say Strength any day).

[Vizzerdrix]

Doesn`t that qualify for a reroll? :smallconfused:

If you stick with that string, have you considered being undead? Seeing as going elf is gonna tank your con score either way, you could dump it and start working towards necropolitan.

[AnimeTheCat]

so... you're talking a +1 modifier and feat qualification... uhm... go with what your heart desires? Really when you're getting to this point it's irrelevant. Do you value the feats from high Wisdom most? put the 13 there. Do you value the feats from high Con? put it there, 12 Dex or better is of course better since you want to have better ranged attack, but +1 isn't really going to be particularly impactful outside of early game before you can more reliably get buffs on yourself.

I think what's more important that the 1 point variation to 3 less than heavily used ability scores is your class choice. Kineticist/Evoker seems... strange to me. You specialize in damage powers, then specialize in damage spells. I mean, thematically cool I guess, but then you dump two overwhelmingly useful schools and shut out your ability to get useful abilities like Teleport until you get 8th level powers when you can natively pick up Greater Psionic Teleport. That is, unless you want to burn a feat to learn a power like that earlier. Instead of doubling down on direct damage, why not focus your arcane side on something more versatile, perhaps elven generalist if you are a half elf, and then focus on your damage from psionics.

Just my suggestion, but otherwise the variance between 10, 12, and 13 for your other three ability scores is really irrelevant in the long run.

[Arkhios]

Doesn`t that qualify for a reroll? :smallconfused:

If you stick with that string, have you considered being undead? Seeing as going elf is gonna tank your con score either way, you could dump it and start working towards necropolitan.

Nope. Qualifying for reroll would require that (before racials) either your highest score is 13 or the total of your modifiers is +0 or less. Since my row has a 15 and the total of the modifiers is +2, I'm out of luck. I did ask it as soon as I rolled them, but no dice.

Being an undead is not an option. Our race options are limited to PHB only.

I said the character would be a human or half-elf, not an elf, so there's no additional "tanking my con score"?


Kineticist/Evoker seems... strange to me. You specialize in damage powers, then specialize in damage spells. I mean, thematically cool I guess, but then you dump two overwhelmingly useful schools and shut out your ability to get useful abilities like Teleport until you get 8th level powers when you can natively pick up Greater Psionic Teleport. That is, unless you want to burn a feat to learn a power like that earlier. Instead of doubling down on direct damage, why not focus your arcane side on something more versatile, perhaps elven generalist if you are a half elf, and then focus on your damage from psionics.

Just my suggestion, but otherwise the variance between 10, 12, and 13 for your other three ability scores is really irrelevant in the long run.

I suppose you're right about that. Honestly, regarding specialist wizard I was basically staring at the extra spell slots granted from being a specialist perhaps a little too blindly to see the forest from the trees. Being basically a half-kineticist, half-wizard I could perhaps afford to have one less spell slot per level, and just be versatile as a non-specialized wizard.

We don't have access to each and every 3.5 book that has been released during the 10-ish years when 3.5 was the latest edition, so no can do with Generalist Wizardry substitution levels. We're kind of just reminiscing the past and playing through several adventure paths set in Golarion before the transition to Pathfinder Core rules came, with relatively minimal resources (roughly equivalent to what's in SRD, excluding Unearthed Arcana entirely, races from the XPH, and everything else except feats from Deities and Demigods).

[Trandir]

Being an undead is not an option. Our race options are limited to PHB only.

I said the character would be a human or half-elf, not an elf, so there's no additional "tanking my con score"?

Any race can be a necropolitan since it is an aquired template, but probably it would get rejected anyway.

And what do mean with "tanking my con score"?

[Zera]

Why not going Elf?

You can make yourself a Sun Elf (for a +2int -2con) with no LA, and pick up Faerie Mysteries Initiate (passion), using the now 17 int score to determine bonus hit points/level, and you still get all the nifty basic elven traits like that +2 spot/search and the longbow proficiency for free.

I would go with this distribution:

Str 11 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 15 Wis 13 Cha 7 (con 8/int 17 after racial adjustments).

You get all the bonuses of both your options A and C, with the sacrifice of a couple of points on your Concentration skill and Fortitude save (and both can recovered with a few GPs worth of items)

[Arkhios]

Any race can be a necropolitan since it is an aquired template, but probably it would get rejected anyway.

And what do mean with "tanking my con score"?

It may be an acquired template, but it's likely from some book we can't use (can't pin-point which one, unfortunately).

I don't know what the other poster meant with "tanking your con score", I simply responded to that, after deducing he probably meant that as if I was going to reduce it even lower than it already is (which I'm not).


Why not going Elf?

You can make yourself a Sun Elf (for a +2int -2con) with no LA, and pick up Faerie Mysteries Initiate (passion), using the now 17 int score to determine bonus hit points/level, and you still get all the nifty basic elven traits like that +2 spot/search and the longbow proficiency for free.

I would go with this distribution:

Str 11 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 15 Wis 13 Cha 7 (con 8/int 17 after racial adjustments).

You get all the bonuses of both your options A and C, with the sacrifice of a couple of points on your Concentration skill and Fortitude save (and both can recovered with a few GPs worth of items)

For two reasons: Firstly, I don't want to play an elf. Secondly, we don't have access to each and every supplement churned out for 3.5 over the years. It also didn't come to me as a surprise two years ago when we started our little project to play through several adventures in chronological order, and if I wasn't okay about it, I wouldn't be playing in this group, and consequently I wouldn't be asking these questions either, now would I? :smallwink:

I have no use for longbow proficiency, and as a would-be cerebremancer I actually do care about having at least standard bonus (maximum ranks and a positive Constitution modifier) for Concentration, because I can use the Psionic Focus to help concentrate with spells I cast from wizard in a pinch (by expending psionic focus I can take 10 but treat it as 15 instead).

Actually, let's make three reasons: You're not helping me to decide at all between the options I clearly laid out to be the options I want to choose from, by suggesting even more options (whether or not they're open for me).

[Zera]

Actually, let's make three reasons: You're not helping me to decide at all between the options I clearly laid out to be the options I want to choose from, by suggesting even more options (whether or not they're open for me).

Sorry, Faerie mysteries Initiate is an obscure feat that not everyone knows about, i just proposed a better option than any of the ones you proposed if not for your point 1.

Ten i could tell you what your best option would be, but i feel you do not deserve it after your last quoted reply.
Have fun

[Trandir]

It may be an acquired template, but it's likely from some book we can't use (can't pin-point which one, unfortunately).

Libris mortis. And yes I know that it would probably get rejected anyway as I sayed on the previous post.

Just out of curiosity what books are legal at your table?




Actually, let's make three reasons: You're not helping me to decide at all between the options I clearly laid out to be the options I want to choose from, by suggesting even more options (whether or not they're open for me).

Fair enough.

Then dump wisdom with the 10 since you' ll have a decent save anyway.
I'd go with Con for the 13 the with a stat increase you get a decent HP boost, fortitude and concentration.
12 on Dex isn't that bad, the (magic item) of dexterity get you to 14/16/18 without any more investment. Also a caster should go for avoiding attacks and miss % rather than flat AC.

[Brackenlord]

What I'm trying to decide is whether I should go with a), b), or c):


a) Str 11, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 7
b) Str 11, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 7
c) Str 11, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 7


How do you feel about a middle-aged human? (+35)

d) Str 11-1, Dex 12-1, Con 13-1, Int 15+1, Wis 10+1, Cha 7+1

Either way b) is the best array.

Int > Con >= Dex

The rest is up to taste.

[Arkhios]

Sorry, Faerie mysteries Initiate is an obscure feat that not everyone knows about, i just proposed a better option than any of the ones you proposed if not for your point 1.

Ten i could tell you what your best option would be, but i feel you do not deserve it after your last quoted reply.
Have fun

Okay, so, you're accusing me for your own ignorance? I wanted an opinion for a simple "a, b, or c" question, and yet you still felt that for some reason I might want to hear of an "option d"?

I don't know how much more clear I could've made the initial question than it already was.


Libris mortis. And yes I know that it would probably get rejected anyway as I sayed on the previous post.

Just out of curiosity what books are legal at your table?

Sorry for being a little blunt earlier, it just gets on my nerves that everytime, when I ask something, I get an answer that's almost if not completely unrelated to what I asked.


Fair enough.

Then dump wisdom with the 10 since you' ll have a decent save anyway.
I'd go with Con for the 13 the with a stat increase you get a decent HP boost, fortitude and concentration.
12 on Dex isn't that bad, the (magic item) of dexterity get you to 14/16/18 without any more investment. Also a caster should go for avoiding attacks and miss % rather than flat AC.

Yeah, I suppose that's a good point.


How do you feel about a middle-aged human? (+35)

d) Str 11-1, Dex 12-1, Con 13-1, Int 15+1, Wis 10+1, Cha 7+1

Either way b) is the best array.

Int > Con >= Dex

The rest is up to taste.

Hehe, I actually asked my DM if I could make a middle-aged character, but he didn't allow it. Can't say I blame him though.

[DeTess]

Okay, so, you're accusing me for your own ignorance? I wanted an opinion for a simple "a, b, or c" question, and yet you still felt that for some reason I might want to hear of an "option d"?

I don't know how much more clear I could've made the initial question than it already was.

I believe the appropriate response is 'we are not your private army'?

You are of course free to ask the internet to help, but everyone here is free to add additional suggestions. Most of those suggestions are made with the goal of helping you make a better character (by some arbitrary definition of 'better'), and angry responses to such suggestion are very much unwarranted in my opinion.

Regarding your question, I'd pick one of b or c. If you consider a constitution of 12 enough, then go with c, as you'll want more dex than either 12 or 13, so you might as well get a head-start.

[Arkhios]

I believe the appropriate response is 'we are not your private army'?

You are of course free to ask the internet to help, but everyone here is free to add additional suggestions. Most of those suggestions are made with the goal of helping you make a better character (by some arbitrary definition of 'better'), and angry responses to such suggestion are very much unwarranted in my opinion.

Regarding your question, I'd pick one of b or c. If you consider a constitution of 12 enough, then go with c, as you'll want more dex than either 12 or 13, so you might as well get a head-start.

Fair enough. I do understand that people are free to answer however they please, but still, if one doesn't have any opinion whatsoever regarding the actual question, there is no obligation to reply at all. They could've just moved on to the next topic.

[Trandir]

Fair enough. I do understand that people are free to answer however they please, but still, if one doesn't have any opinion whatsoever regarding the actual question, there is no obligation to reply at all. They could've just moved on to the next topic.

That's the trap. They have opinions about the question but not answers to it. And since this is the internet and once you post a thread anyone can post almost anything here

Also most of the time the playground advices are better than the initial idea behind the question.
But yes as a general note the order is
Int> Con/Dex > anything else.

Also what books are legal on your table? You should not complain about suggestion contained in banned books if you do not provide what manuals your table use.

[Arkhios]

That's the trap. They have opinions about the question but not answers to it. And since this is the internet and once you post a thread anyone can post almost anything here

Also most of the time the playground advices are better than the initial idea behind the question.
But yes as a general note the order is
Int> Con/Dex > anything else.

Also what books are legal on your table? You should noy complain about suggestion contained in banned books if you do not provide what manuals your table use.

The books we're allowed to use are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide (for the few prestige classes in there), Expanded Psionics Handbook (classes, prestige classes, and feats only), Deities and Demigods (feats and domains only), Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting (the book's written specifically for 3.5 D&D). Then there are those Player's Guides for each adventure path, of course.

I didn't feel like it was necessary to list it in the first post as I believed my question was simple and clear on its own right and wouldn't need any more details about the table rules and legalities.

I guess I'll add the list in there now, just in case someone else stops by to give their opinion.

[Silvercrys]

Seems like the main question is, "do you want to take Point Blank Shot for your ray spells/powers or not?"

If you don't, 13 Con/12 Dex is better than 12 Con/13 Dex since you can get a +1 manual or Wish spell to bump your Con score (or if you're planning on buying manuals use one stat boost on Con and get an odd numbered inherent bonus to Int).

If the APs you're playing don't go that high the difference is mainly academic.

[Mr Adventurer]

If I have a spare odd-numbered ability score, I like to put it into Constitution, to slightly buffer against Con drain, which can be lethal.

[Arkhios]

If I have a spare odd-numbered ability score, I like to put it into Constitution, to slightly buffer against Con drain, which can be lethal.

Ah, that's a very good point, as the campaign we're about to play is said to have a lot of undead. IIRC, there are many vicious undead creatures that either drain or at least damage constitution!

That settles it then.

Str 11, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 7


Thanks to everyone for their thoughts up to this point!