Paladin in 3.5 - how can I make it competitive?

[Liseah]

Hi guys! Gotta a problem here: I'm starting a new campaign and I was thinking to play a paladin this time. Some problems:
- 1 only prestige class
- manuals allowed --> player's handbook I, monsters manual I, DMG, exalted deeds, vile darkness, complete warrior/adventurer/divine/arcane, heroes of horror.

I would like to be tanky oriented or if I can't be a decent tank, to do as much damage as possible. I could not abuse of turn/rebuke undead metamagic cause we are not using liber mortis, so nightstick (already asked) and that's why I didn't pick up a cleric. I will have 78 stats points, starting from level 2 and high level oriented.


Hope to read some ideas soon, thanks in advice!

[AnimeTheCat]

Hi guys! Gotta a problem here: I'm starting a new campaign and I was thinking to play a paladin this time. Some problems:
- 1 only prestige class
- manuals allowed --> player's handbook I, monsters manual I, DMG, exalted deeds, vile darkness, complete warrior/adventurer/divine/arcane, heroes of horror.

I would like to be tanky oriented or if I can't be a decent tank, to do as much damage as possible. I could not abuse of turn/rebuke undead metamagic cause we are not using liber mortis, so nightstick (already asked) and that's why I didn't pick up a cleric. I will have 78 stats points, starting from level 2 and high level oriented.


Hope to read some ideas soon, thanks in advice!

78 stat points, meaning your stats start at 0 and each point costs 1 point? average score of 13? Max stat at character creation 18 (before racial modifiers)?

The Paladin is a fun mounted combatant; natively gets a mount that improves as you do, has a variety of spells that make charging better (lion's charge being one), and that's about it. If possible play a Paladin of Freedom so that you can ease any ruffled feathers your party members may have with you playing a Lawful Good character (even though it's REALLY not that bad...). Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper. Those feats, not necessarily in that order, should make your charges with a lance quite potent. Discuss with your DM getting a winged mount so that you can get around better (and give you your own form of flight) to get your potent charge attacks off more. Spirited charge with a lance for x3, lions charge increases to x4, then leap attack doubles the power attack bonus which makes that a 3:1 ratio to your AC penalty (not BAB because of the heedless charge maneuver of Shock Trooper) up to your BAB (so your character's level if you're straight Paladin). So... it can be pretty insane. Even with just 14 strength while two handing your lance, on your charge you would deal (1d8+3+(3*PA Penalty))x4, at level 15 that would be between 196 and 224 damage on that charge hit.

That's only one thing you can do, and it focuses more on the damage aspect. Also, any ole joe with a lance can do that too (though they don't get native mount access). What power level are you looking to achieve?

[Sutr]

Doesn't the DMG have leadership give Paladin a dragon mount. While suggesting leadership is bad, and there are more fair rules in the draconomicon I still suggest a dragon mount.

As above your charge will be deadly.

I believe you have some of the things to mix with bard to do inspire courage well.

Without spell compendium and complete champion for battle blessing, the paladin spell list is a little poor so you only really need a 11 or 12 in wisdom to start. Without FR sword of the arcane order doesn't exist so intelligence can be dumped.

[Gnaeus]

If possible play a Paladin of Freedom so that you can ease any ruffled feathers your party members may have with you playing a Lawful Good character (even though it's REALLY not that bad...).

If not possible, I don’t see that you lose much of anything with 6 levels of Barbarian or Ranger followed by Champion of Gwynharwyf. It isn’t exactly paladin but it is basically all things paladin on a Barbarian chassis.

[liquidformat]

If not possible, I don’t see that you lose much of anything with 6 levels of Barbarian or Ranger followed by Champion of Gwynharwyf. It isn’t exactly paladin but it is basically all things paladin on a Barbarian chassis.

Ya I was going to suggest this, probably your best option.


Doesn't the DMG have leadership give Paladin a dragon mount. While suggesting leadership is bad, and there are more fair rules in the draconomicon I still suggest a dragon mount.

As above your charge will be deadly.

I believe you have some of the things to mix with bard to do inspire courage well.

Without spell compendium and complete champion for battle blessing, the paladin spell list is a little poor so you only really need a 11 or 12 in wisdom to start. Without FR sword of the arcane order doesn't exist so intelligence can be dumped.

From Smite to Song is in Champions of Valor so it is out along with Arcane Order...

As far as PRCs Kensai and anointed knight are both worth while and so is Fist of Raziel, I would avoid Cavalier it isn't worth the feat investment, Knight of the Chalice is alright if you have a lot of fiends in the game, Purple Dragon Knight isn't horrible but not great either.

[pabelfly]

Here's a question: do you specifically need to be of the Paladin class, or would you be happy playing someone who's like a Paladin and would let you roleplay mechanics like a Paladin, even if you weren't able to write "Paladin 2" on your character sheet?

[Elves]

Those are pretty harsh book restrictions so probably just play a cleric and use DMM buffs since you can use CDiv. Think of it this way -- cloistered clerics (UA variant class) are the actual priest types, the default cleric is already a divine warrior. Otherwise, mounted combat and Leadership most likely. If using paladin, you should probably ask the DM for buffs: even simple things would go a long way -- +1d6/level damage for smite instead of +1, and no hour/day limit on special mount. Smites should probably also automatically ignore all non-epic DR of evil creatures.

[Biggus]

If you're wanting to be tanky, there's Improved Toughness, Divine Shield and Divine Vigor in CW. The latter two require a standard action to activate though, so whether they're worth taking depends on how often you have advance warning that combat is about to start. To get them to focus on you there's Extra Smiting (also CW).

But with just those books a lot of the best Paladin options are unavailable, I have to agree that a Cleric or Champion of Gynharwyf could do most of the same things better.

[Elves]

Starting with a cleric base, you can always go prestige paladin if you need to be a paladin proper.

[DEMON]

What particular aspect of Paladin caught your fancy and what do you want your character to do?

Also, when you say 1 prestige class only, is multiclassing between several base classes allowed? If so, how many can you mix and do multiclass penalties apply?


Starting with a cleric base, you can always go prestige paladin if you need to be a paladin proper.

Not really. Neither SRD, nor Unearthed Arcana is on his list of allowed stuff, so you should assume that variant PrC is off limits.

[Silvercrys]

Hi guys! Gotta a problem here: I'm starting a new campaign and I was thinking to play a paladin this time. Some problems:
- 1 only prestige class
- manuals allowed --> player's handbook I, monsters manual I, DMG, exalted deeds, vile darkness, complete warrior/adventurer/divine/arcane, heroes of horror.Well, you have Shock Trooper from Complete Warrior. That one book basically builds uberchargers by itself; play a Human, take Power Attack/Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer)/Improved Bullrush/Shock Trooper, when you have a mount use a Lance and otherwise smash things with your Greatsword for tons of damage. You aren't as good at it as the Fighter, mainly because the Fighter doesn't have to be Human and has extra feats for other stuff, but you're serviceable.


I would like to be tanky oriented or if I can't be a decent tank, to do as much damage as possible. I could not abuse of turn/rebuke undead metamagic cause we are not using liber mortis, so nightstick (already asked) and that's why I didn't pick up a cleric. I will have 78 stats points, starting from level 2 and high level oriented.Yeah, if you're planning on going to high levels I'd 100% build an ubercharger. The Barbarian/Champion of Gwynharwyf build is slightly better at this because of Rage but you'll be fine in straight Paladin if you really want it for some reason. You just stop getting class features after level 5ish, heh.

3.x doesn't do the whole tanking/aggro thing very well when you don't have access to Tome of Battle, unfortunately.

[Liseah]

Here's a question: do you specifically need to be of the Paladin class, or would you be happy playing someone who's like a Paladin and would let you roleplay mechanics like a Paladin, even if you weren't able to write "Paladin 2" on your character sheet?

I'd like to play something who's like paladin too. I said paladin because I'm not used to those "holy fighters", except for cleric.



78 stat points, meaning your stats start at 0 and each point costs 1 point? average score of 13? Max stat at character creation 18 (before racial modifiers)?

The Paladin is a fun mounted combatant; natively gets a mount that improves as you do, has a variety of spells that make charging better (lion's charge being one), and that's about it. If possible play a Paladin of Freedom so that you can ease any ruffled feathers your party members may have with you playing a Lawful Good character (even though it's REALLY not that bad...). Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper. Those feats, not necessarily in that order, should make your charges with a lance quite potent. Discuss with your DM getting a winged mount so that you can get around better (and give you your own form of flight) to get your potent charge attacks off more. Spirited charge with a lance for x3, lions charge increases to x4, then leap attack doubles the power attack bonus which makes that a 3:1 ratio to your AC penalty (not BAB because of the heedless charge maneuver of Shock Trooper) up to your BAB (so your character's level if you're straight Paladin). So... it can be pretty insane. Even with just 14 strength while two handing your lance, on your charge you would deal (1d8+3+(3*PA Penalty))x4, at level 15 that would be between 196 and 224 damage on that charge hit.

That's only one thing you can do, and it focuses more on the damage aspect. Also, any ole joe with a lance can do that too (though they don't get native mount access). What power level are you looking to achieve?


78 pts starting from 0, max with racial is 20 but the cost of stat point increases by 2 between 16-17 and by 3 between 17-18. My DM said we are going over 15+ for sure, starting from level 3.



What particular aspect of Paladin caught your fancy and what do you want your character to do?

Also, when you say 1 prestige class only, is multiclassing between several base classes allowed? If so, how many can you mix and do multiclass penalties apply?



Not really. Neither SRD, nor Unearthed Arcana is on his list of allowed stuff, so you should assume that variant PrC is off limits.

I can multiclass as much as I want, but I must explain WHY I'm multiclassing like that (with the BG and good roleplay related). Just one prestige class. No penalties if I play that good.
I love the idea of paladin, but I must admit it's more about the holy fighter. I played a lot of clerics and I want to leave the spot to someone else this time. My DM is very good in horror/psychological campaign with a good party and the holy/religious aspect is really important and makes the game and the interactions better with him and his enviroment.



Thanks for the other answers, but no cleric guys >_>. And I can't ask to allow something outside those books because he's reeeeeeaally a strict DM.

[Psychoalpha]

Third or fourth the Champion of Gwynfwhatsits.

Favored Soul into Prestige Paladin? Or is that too close to Cleric? :p

I'm confused about the Cleric thing, though, because you said:


I could not abuse of turn/rebuke undead metamagic cause we are not using liber mortis, so nightstick (already asked) and that's why I didn't pick up a cleric.

But like... that just says you're not playing a Cleric because you can't be the most absolutely optimized cheesed out Cleric possible. But even without being All You Could Possibly Be, a Cleric is just a better chassis for a holy warrior type than any 3.5 Paladin is ever going to be, with those books you listed. Hell, Cleric into Prestige Paladin is still worse than a straight Cleric, but gets everything good about the Paladin but with a vastly better spell list.

To be clear if you just don't want to play a Cleric, cool, but the whole "On a scale of 1-10 I can't play a 9 with cheese to be a 15, so I'll play a 3 instead." doesn't make a lot of sense.

[noce]

Pious Templar is pretty good, too.
Better smites (and advances your smites too), better spell progression, mettle, free feats including weapon specialization (qualifying you for melee weapon mastery).

[Tindragon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

And modify that (if you don't want Lawful) with Pally of Freedom.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures

[Liseah]

And modify that (if you don't want Lawful) with Pally of Freedom.



Unfortunately unearthed arcana is heavily banned, no exception.



Third or fourth the Champion of Gwynfwhatsits.

Favored Soul into Prestige Paladin? Or is that too close to Cleric? :p

I'm confused about the Cleric thing, though, because you said:



But like... that just says you're not playing a Cleric because you can't be the most absolutely optimized cheesed out Cleric possible. But even without being All You Could Possibly Be, a Cleric is just a better chassis for a holy warrior type than any 3.5 Paladin is ever going to be, with those books you listed. Hell, Cleric into Prestige Paladin is still worse than a straight Cleric, but gets everything good about the Paladin but with a vastly better spell list.

To be clear if you just don't want to play a Cleric, cool, but the whole "On a scale of 1-10 I can't play a 9 with cheese to be a 15, so I'll play a 3 instead." doesn't make a lot of sense.


I said that because I expected to read some suggestion with DMM :) so I decided to write it before and sticked in my first post! No cleric anyway, I confirm that. I could think about a favoured soul. I'm reading about this "champion of gwynharwyf" and looks interesting.



What about a fighter--> holy liberator? I was reading about that too. The anointed knight looked good too.

[liquidformat]

Unfortunately unearthed arcana is heavily banned, no exception.





I said that because I expected to read some suggestion with DMM :) so I decided to write it before and sticked in my first post! No cleric anyway, I confirm that. I could think about a favoured soul. I'm reading about this "champion of gwynharwyf" and looks interesting.



What about a fighter--> holy liberator? I was reading about that too.

Fighter in and of itself isn't particularly good and even worse with your available books, either way I would suggest at least starting with barbarian. Trying to get into holy liberator from fighter or barbarian is pretty rough due to skill requirements.

If you don't want to go straight paladin, I think Barbarian into champion of gwynharwyf is your best choice, taking Intimidating rage (it should stack with Fearsome Fury though ask your dm) maxing out intimidate, and add in Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. Taking a 2 level fighter dip to get extra feats isn't a bad idea but I wouldn't do any more than that.

[DEMON]

What about a fighter--> holy liberator? I was reading about that too. The anointed knight looked good too.

Yeah, Holy Liberator is close enough to CG Paladin shortened to 10 levels and only costs you 1 feat. The skill pre-reqs aren't very Fighter-friendly, but you can meet them easily even at cross-class costs.
Pious Templar, Consecrated Harrier or their distant cousin Hunter of the Dead can be of use as well.

Although, once you mentioned horror/psychological campaign, I for some reason, foresaw Shadowbane Stalker. With Rogue/Favored Soul, or better yet, Rogue/Archivist entry, if you don't want to use Cleric at all.

[Biggus]

What about a fighter--> holy liberator?

Holy Liberator is decent, the main downside compared to Paladin is no turn undead so no divine feats. On the upside, chaotic good so no stick up your ***.

A Fighter might struggle to get enough skill points though, even if you're human you'd need either Int 12 or the Nymph's Kiss feat to get 5 ranks in two cross-class skills by a reasonable level. A single level of Rogue could get you much earlier entry, or Ranger levels could work too (they don't get Diplomacy or Sense Motive as class skills, but they do get lots of skill points, and you could use wands for their spells too).

[Liseah]

Thank you guys, I think I'll try to build up a holy liberator (warr/rogue I guess) and a barbarian to be champion of gwynharwyf and see what could work better in the party when the other mates will show up their concepts.

Kudos to everyone for your help! <3