Merging Arcane and Divine

[Palanan]

I’m interested in what mechanics exist that allow for a fusion of arcane and divine magic, ideally to the point that they become interchangeable.

I’m aware of Southern Magician, and I also seem to recall a Dragon magazine feat (Something Something Theurge?) that allows for this on a small scale. But I’m thinking more along the lines of the Geomancer from Masters of the Wild/Complete Divine, whose Spell Versatility allows you to switch around your casting stats, as well as use arcane spell slots to cast spontaneous cures.

Are there any other feats, PrCs, archetypes, etc. that provide similar benefits? I’m open to all official Wizards and Paizo material, as well as Dragon magazine. Is there anything else that facilitates the blending of arcane and divine magic?

[Saintheart]

Alternative Source Spell (Dragon, can't remember the issue number). Cast arcane spells outright as divine.

[Bohandas]

the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor pg 34) lets you prepare wizard spells in paladin and ranger spell slots

[Silvercrys]

The Pathfinder Wizard gets talents every even level called Discoveries. One of them allows you to prepare and cast a Domain spell that is 2 spell levels lower than your highest available spell level: Faith Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/faith-magic). It is explicitly cast as a divine spell.

The Sword of the Arcane Order feat from Complete Champion allows you to prepare Wizard spells in Paladin or Ranger spell slots and doesn't specify whether you cast them as divine or arcane spells, so could be ruled either way. If Arcane, you could use Mystic Ranger from Dragon #336 to get both divine and arcane 6th level spells from one class.

Another Pathfinder thing, Dreamed Secrets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dreamed-secrets) does sort of the opposite of the Faith Magic discovery. It's a feat that allows divine spellcasters to cast a small number of Wizard spells, but they appear to count as Arcane spells since it appears to distinguish them from "the highest level divine spell you can cast"... But it might just be trying to stop you from play a Mystic Theruge focused on Wizard casting while using it to get extra 8th level spells or something. Not that giving a Cleric 20 access to 8th level Wizard spells is much better, hmm?

But yeah Geomancer and Alternative Source Spell from Dragon are pretty much the only ways I know of to cast something like a Divine Fireball while having Wizard levels and not adding it to your spells known with Archivist or something.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mind mage (DragMag#313) blends psionics and arcane magic. It's not arcane/divine, but it's the same idea.

[Telonius]

I’m interested in what mechanics exist that allow for a fusion of arcane and divine magic, ideally to the point that they become interchangeable.

I’m aware of Southern Magician, and I also seem to recall a Dragon magazine feat (Something Something Theurge?) that allows for this on a small scale. But I’m thinking more along the lines of the Geomancer from Masters of the Wild/Complete Divine, whose Spell Versatility allows you to switch around your casting stats, as well as use arcane spell slots to cast spontaneous cures.

Are there any other feats, PrCs, archetypes, etc. that provide similar benefits? I’m open to all official Wizards and Paizo material, as well as Dragon magazine. Is there anything else that facilitates the blending of arcane and divine magic?

This one is a bit rules-nebulous, controversial, and very much requires DM buy-in; but the Sorcerer class can allow this. The key thing is this phrasing:


A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Key word there is primarily, not exclusively. I believe that this was placed there to allow a sorcerer to (with DM approval) put appropriately-themed divine spells on their arcane list, much the same way that some Dragons cast normally-Divine spells as arcane ("Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells;" Black dragons can cast Insect Plague and Plant Growth, to take the first example from the Monster Manual) In the class description for Sorcerer, it mentions that sorcerers could be dragon-descended. Again, this is very much in "ask your DM" territory, but there's a case to be made for it.

[Bohandas]

This one is a bit rules-nebulous, controversial, and very much requires DM buy-in; but the Sorcerer class can allow this. The key thing is this phrasing:

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Key word there is primarily, not exclusively. I believe that this was placed there to allow a sorcerer to (with DM approval) put appropriately-themed divine spells on their arcane list, much the same way that some Dragons cast normally-Divine spells as arcane ("Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells;" Black dragons can cast Insect Plague and Plant Growth, to take the first example from the Monster Manual) In the class description for Sorcerer, it mentions that sorcerers could be dragon-descended. Again, this is very much in "ask your DM" territory, but there's a case to be made for it.

and/or it may be a reference to the sorcerer only spells that appear in a few splatbooks and/or the spell Mordenkainen's Lucubration [sic] which is wizard only

[Telonius]

and/or it may be a reference to the sorcerer only spells that appear in a few splatbooks and/or the spell Mordenkainen's Lucubration [sic] which is wizard only

The PHB text was there well before the splatbooks and Sorcerer-only spells existed. The text is a bit of an update from the 3.0 description, which had this:


Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells. The number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma bonus. The spells a sorcerer knows can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

[daremetoidareyo]

Shair? From dragon compendium

[ZamielVanWeber]

The PHB text was there well before the splatbooks and Sorcerer-only spells existed. The text is a bit of an update from the 3.0 description, which had this:

They knew they had created wizard only spells and decided to update the 3.5 wording to accommodate the possibility of sorcerer only spells while using making it clearer what spells sorcerers are getting by matching to the "sorcerer/wizard" text on spells themselves. The 3.0 wording leads to a reasonable reading that Mordenkainen's Lucubration is on the sorcerer list (at a glance anyways). For large scale projects it is not uncommon for designers to call put design space early to have have to double back and create it later. Since it is not explained how these non "sorcerer/wizard" get on the sorcerer spell list, not even with a "worth DM approval" Occam's Razor is that they intended that sorcerer only spells would be made later and left a line for that.

[Biggus]

and/or it may be a reference to the sorcerer only spells that appear in a few splatbooks and/or the spell Mordenkainen's Lucubration [sic] which is wizard only

If so, why does the Wizard entry read "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" as compared to "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list"?

[ZamielVanWeber]

If so, why does the Wizard entry read "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" as compared to "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list"?

That is actually an interesting point, although if we wanted to discuss this further is might be best to make this debate its own thread so we stop hijacking this thread

[Particle_Man]

Arcane Hierophant at least has flavour text saying that arcane magic is just a force of nature.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Would the Magic mantle be considered another offshoot of this for magic and psionics?

[smasher0404]

Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) allows you to add all of your caster levels together for spells of your specialist school (effectively setting your caster level for Arcane and Divine equal to each other for your Specialized School).

[Korwin]

Rainbow Servant (Dont forgett text trumps table)

[Anthrowhale]

Thurbane recently noted that Hathrans can spontaneously cast spells from another list. As an example, a wizard spell from a cleric slot.

[weckar]

Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) allows you to add all of your caster levels together for spells of your specialist school (effectively setting your caster level for Arcane and Divine equal to each other for your Specialized School).Extremely abusable for an Aligned Spellcaster+Abyssal specialist, by the way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Extremely abusable for an Aligned Spellcaster+Abyssal specialist, by the way.It's not too bad on a changeling dual specialist wizard / red wizard / master specialist, either.

[Bphill561]

Eldritch master adds spell lists from other classes to yours that you can learn new spells from every 4 levels of PrC. Dragon Magazine 280. Downside is that it does not progress spell casting. All of these spells are cast as arcane spells regardless of the original class. Works best in gestalt or something like a Sublime chord.

Archivist can already cast every spell and power. The Arcane disciple cleric variant from dragon 310 or 311 can add any Bard/Wizard/Sorc spells to its divine spell list. Customize domain can add any spell to a magic domain at one level higher than normal, plus other domain options can pick up 9th level spells if they follow the theme. Then there is that pesky dragon magazine crafting feat that lets you psi/theruge craft psi powers on magic scrolls. That pretty much covers every spell in the game, add in the previously mentioned alternative sourced spell to cast it in the desired arcane/divine form.

A new thread I need to start also is Miracle emulation. The last option for the lesser no xp miracles lets you copy effects similar in line to the other spell copying rules on miracle. True name magic counts as spells with the listed level when interacting with magic, they don't go over 5th level I believe. Shadow Mysteries can be cast as arcane spells, so they can be emulated up to 7th level. Warlock powers have a spell level equivalent, although there is less to copy there that is not already possible with standard magic. Artificer infusions stop at 6th level. Leaves out binders, incarnium, and book of nine swords. Overall though that adds quite a bit to the list of arcane/divine infusion. Did I forget any?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Like the Geomancer, the Dweomerkeeperprestige class is themed around combining mixing arcane and divine magic (being servants of the goddess of magic). It requires that one be able to cast both kinds of spells and eventually grants the ability to cast either kind as supernatural abilities.

(Unlike Geomancer, it's extremely powerful and frequently banned.)

[Bohandas]

Archivist can already cast every spell and power.

I thought the archivist could only learn divine spells; those from the cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, blighter, blackguard, healer, and shugenja lists

EDIT:

Ok, apparently they're not limited to those lists specifically but are limited to scrolls of divine spells and other archivists' prayerbooks. Therefore they could theoreticalky learn any spell, but only if they already knew a someone capable of preparing/casting arcane spells as divine spells and scribing said spells to a scroll. (would a minor schema work? Can spells be transcribed from those?)

[Silvercrys]

I thought the archivist could only learn divine spells; those from the cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, blighter, blackguard, healer, and shugenja listsArchivist says "At any time, an archivist can also add spells found on scrolls containing divine spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any rolls and spend the time required (see Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook on page 178 of the Player's Handbook). The archivist can learn and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in this fashion but the two free spells he gains for advancing in class level must be selected from the cleric spell list."

So it mostly depends on how you read the rules for scribing scrolls and what classes/feats exist in your game. Arguably, a Druid 3/Wizard 7/Geomancer 10 can scribe divine scrolls of the entire Sorc/Wiz spell list. Divine Bard can scribe most arcane spells as divine ones up to 6th level spells. Etc.

Even just from your list Shugenja and certain Cleric domains get access to a lot of Arcane spells.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not a PrC, but a convert spell-to-power erudite can grab any psionic power, and any arcane spell (up to 1 level below his maximum). Note that there are many ways to convert divine spells to arcane spells, such as many of the ways listed in this thread. Many older true dragons (except gem dragons) can cast cleric spells as arcane spells, and such a dragon with the Child of Eberron archetype can cast druid spells in the same manner.

Any psion with such an erudite on retainer (preferably with a way to mitigate XP costs, such as a few thought bottles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes)) with access to psychic chirurgery can learn every power, arcane spell, and divine-spell-turned-arcane-spell the erudite knows, rather cheaply. And they aren't limited by the erudite's unique powers per day.

Alternately, three levels in illithid savant can grant a character access to the CStP ACF by finding a low level erudite and consuming it.

All such spells are considered to be psionic powers, meaning the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat converts them further into Supernatural abilities, which has some seriously nice perks, even for epic characters.

[Rebel7284]

A certain reading of Versatile Spellcaster would allow you to use two arcane slots to power a divine spell that you know or two divine slots to power an arcane spell that you know (or one of each!)

[Bphill561]

I thought the archivist could only learn divine spells; those from the cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, blighter, blackguard, healer, and shugenja lists

EDIT:

Ok, apparently they're not limited to those lists specifically but are limited to scrolls of divine spells and other archivists' prayerbooks. Therefore they could theoreticalky learn any spell, but only if they already knew a someone capable of preparing/casting arcane spells as divine spells and scribing said spells to a scroll. (would a minor schema work? Can spells be transcribed from those?)

If your alignment is good, you can take a book as your Ancestral Relic (Book of Exalted Deeds feat). Then you can pray in whatever scroll you want into the book for copying. That way you are only limited to the class and PrC classes that are available in your campaign. There are many other classes that get arcane spells on their divine list, I just gave the shortest three options that grant everything.

The item creation feat I mentioned previously was chameleon crafting from Dragon Magazine #349.

[Bohandas]

What do scrolls created by an artificer count as?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What do scrolls created by an artificer count as?N/A.

Though the spells themselves have arcane and divine origins, the scrolls are N/A.

Of course, my suggestion turned them psionic and then supernatural, so it's a good suggestion either way.

[Bohandas]

N/A.

Though the spells themselves have arcane and divine origins, the scrolls are N/A.

Of course, my suggestion turned them psionic and then supernatural, so it's a good suggestion either way.

So can archivists copy spells from them then? Or can wizards, even?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So can archivists copy spells from them then? Or can wizards, even?I'm afraid not. The scrolls have their ultimate origins in arcane and divine spells, but they are no longer arcane, nor divine. Just like a wizard can't scribe from a divine scroll of fireball, archivists and wizards can't scribe from artificer scrolls.