Turning on survival mode

[stoutstien]

I'm starting a low magic Homebrew campaign in a few days and I am Fishing for more ideas to bring the exploration part of the game up to snuff. I want it to be as big as part of the games as combat and social.
The problem I'm running into is that so many features just reduce it down to a dice roll at best and more often than not, an auto pass.
So far I've figured out a way to handle gear/ carrying capacity with a bulk system which has been a big step forward but I'm on food and water.
I dont want to just remove all the features that effect it so I'm looking for a new views to change them.

The outlander background: turn wanderer to advantage on survival checks to find food and water.

Goodberry: the nourishment is now only good for a 4 hour period.1/6 of a day.
*So it would take 6 berries to prevent making a con check to prevent exhaustion caused by exhaustion.*

Create/ destroy water: reduce the amount created or destroyed by 1/2.

Purify food/ water: loses ritual casting and casting time increased to 10 minutes.

Food: you need to consume 2x more food if you move at fast pace or forced March.

Water: need 2 units a day to prevent dehydration and an Additional one if the weather is hot.

Any ideas floating about?

[blackjack50]

I'm starting a low magic Homebrew campaign in a few days and I am Fishing for more ideas to bring the exploration part of the game up to snuff. I want it to be as big as part of the games as combat and social.
The problem I'm running into is that so many features just reduce it down to a dice roll at best and more often than not, an auto pass.
So far I've figured out a way to handle gear/ carrying capacity with a bulk system which has been a big step forward but I'm on food and water.
I dont want to just remove all the features that effect it so I'm looking for a new views to change them.

The outlander background: turn wanderer to advantage on survival checks to find food and water.

Goodberry: the nourishment is now only good for a 4 hour period.1/6 of a day.
*So it would take 6 berries to prevent making a con check to prevent exhaustion caused by exhaustion.*

Create/ destroy water: reduce the amount created or destroyed by 1/2.

Purify food/ water: loses ritual casting and casting time increased to 10 minutes.

Food: you need to consume 2x more food if you move at fast pace or forced March.

Water: need 2 gallons a day to prevent dehydration and an Additional one if the weather is hot.

Any ideas floating about?


Interesting. I’m guessing you camp and do stuff outdoors. I do as well. Something I’ve learned over the years is that survival is easy.* Thriving is not. Those are 2 very different things. The * is environmentally dependent. But anywhere that has regular access to water and game/fish/food? Even if it isn’t “clean” water or the food takes effort? As long as your environment is trying to kill you? You can likely puzzle your way through with a relatively low level of experience.

So can you make a still? Or some other way to create clean water easily? Can you make fire? Can you find food? With some basic supplies? That stuff isn’t all that hard. A bow? Some fishing line? Pot or pan? These are things that most “outlander” or adventurers would have I assume. So limiting their supplies is a big deal I think. You are on the right track. I’d consider an environmental factor (like desert or limited supplies or forcing them to fish or hunt).

Let the players come up with their own ideas on survival too. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Try and be as realistic with a roll as you can. If they want to build a basic structure? Great. Have them make more rolls. Survival is a risk/reward game. A higher A/c roll will yield much better results, but they could get themselves hurt or killed too.

[stoutstien]

Interesting. I’m guessing you camp and do stuff outdoors. I do as well. Something I’ve learned over the years is that survival is easy.* Thriving is not. Those are 2 very different things. The * is environmentally dependent. But anywhere that has regular access to water and game/fish/food? Even if it isn’t “clean” water or the food takes effort? As long as your environment is trying to kill you? You can likely puzzle your way through with a relatively low level of experience.

So can you make a still? Or some other way to create clean water easily? Can you make fire? Can you find food? With some basic supplies? That stuff isn’t all that hard. A bow? Some fishing line? Pot or pan? These are things that most “outlander” or adventurers would have I assume. So limiting their supplies is a big deal I think. You are on the right track. I’d consider an environmental factor (like desert or limited supplies or forcing them to fish or hunt).

Let the players come up with their own ideas on survival too. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Try and be as realistic with a roll as you can. If they want to build a basic structure? Great. Have them make more rolls. Survival is a risk/reward game. A higher A/c roll will yield much better results, but they could get themselves hurt or killed too.
i do spend alot of time outdoors.

I know DND is a poor simulation but I think it can be made a factor. The big factor here is time. I want traveling to be a big deal. Far away lands of wonder stay that way because they are hard to get too and are resource intensive.

If the destination is in the middle of a frozen tundra the prep work before the first step out should be as rewarding and important as any combat. Reaching the lost city buried in the ice is rewarding because now they earned it.

[blackjack50]

i do spend alot of time outdoors.

I know DND is a poor simulation but I think it can be made a factor. The big factor here is time. I want traveling to be a big deal. Far away lands of wonder stay that way because they are hard to get too and are resource intensive.

If the destination is in the middle of a frozen tundra the prep work before the first step out should be as rewarding and important as any combat. Reaching the lost city buried in the ice is rewarding because now they earned it.

I totally agree. I started a thread here a while back asking about transportation in the high fantasy setting of a place like the Sword Coast. Because modern transportation has made goods and services as easy as walking a block for a $1 Taco or burger. It was along similar lines to your survival aspect...the mundane task of getting from point A to B in a world of magic isn’t that hard unless the magic is extremely expensive and/or limited. Limits in the scope/size of goods.

I like your idea. It also makes being a ranger a bit more...useful lol.

[Shabbazar]

I'm a huge fan of the ranger class conceptually, but it seems it only really comes into its own in a low-mana world. As I just posted in another thread, 1st level wizards crush some of the ranger abilities with spells. Mold earth and prestidigitation will get you a secure camp surrounded by a ditch or a cave dug into any hillside. Not only does prestidigitation give you fire, but it also allows you to warm or chill your clothes. Actually it allows you to warm/chill the clothes of the entire party. Once you get to 3rd level spells, Leomunds Tiny Hut is a wilderness crusher.

Creative spellcasters can take a lot of the sting out of the wilderness even without spells directly aimed at it like Goodberry and Leo's Tiny Hut.

[Vogie]

Weather effects could be included. Not only extreme heat or cold, but also more temperate ones, like fog reducing visibility or rain making tracks harder to follow, causing disadvantage on survival checks.

Skill challenges can be used to create environmental encounters - cracking ice, avalanches or smaller rock/mudslides, running from Predators of Unusual Size, tracking and hunting prey.

Extreme heat or cold could be amplified by metal armor, making the PCs actively use the Don/Doff rules or the "sleep in armor" rules from XGtE - you could also look into the DarkSun setting information for this sort of thing, at least in a desertscape.

Encumbrance rules are used, with porters & pack mules... but all of which require more food/water.

You could also have more magic-based impact in the area that causes the PCs to have to burn through resources, or having certain effects that hamper them. This could include:

Elemental storms and living spells, similar to the Mournland of Eberron
Antimagic "Weather", similar to the Kate Daniel's Series of books by Ilona Andrews (Magic Bites, Magic Burns, etc), that would simply render things like your collection of goodberries inert and crumble a Tiny Hut to dust.
Oversize monstrous Predators, similar to the Dinosaurs of Chult or Ixalan, that could be attracted to those who use magic

[stoutstien]

Weather effects could be included. Not only extreme heat or cold, but also more temperate ones, like fog reducing visibility or rain making tracks harder to follow, causing disadvantage on survival checks.

Skill challenges can be used to create environmental encounters - cracking ice, avalanches or smaller rock/mudslides, running from Predators of Unusual Size, tracking and hunting prey.

Extreme heat or cold could be amplified by metal armor, making the PCs actively use the Don/Doff rules or the "sleep in armor" rules from XGtE - you could also look into the DarkSun setting information for this sort of thing, at least in a desertscape.

Encumbrance rules are used, with porters & pack mules... but all of which require more food/water.

You could also have more magic-based impact in the area that causes the PCs to have to burn through resources, or having certain effects that hamper them. This could include:

Elemental storms and living spells, similar to the Mournland of Eberron
Antimagic "Weather", similar to the Kate Daniel's Series of books by Ilona Andrews (Magic Bites, Magic Burns, etc), that would simply render things like your collection of goodberries inert and crumble a Tiny Hut to dust.
Oversize monstrous Predators, similar to the Dinosaurs of Chult or Ixalan, that could be attracted to those who use magic


Funny you mention dinosaurs because they are starting in a tropical rain forest full of them. I'm still trying to figure out a way to show them that trying to kill everything isn't going to be a valid strategy.

[Vogie]

Funny you mention dinosaurs because they are starting in a tropical rain forest full of them. I'm still trying to figure out a way to show them that trying to kill everything isn't going to be a valid strategy.

That's when you have a really hard fight that is then interrupted by an even larger, more powerful dino, who takes down something they dumped several turns into in a single hit, a la "There's always a bigger fish" scene from the SW Prequels. The more powerful one ignores the party, at first, by feasting on the remains of the thing they were fighting... unless they disturb it, at which point it reacts in an intense, deadly manner.

If they genuinely don't realize how massive it is, and try to sneak up on it, perhaps it just happily wags its tail while eating, requiring them to do a Dexterity Saving throw and take a TON of bludgeoning damage (or half without evasion)

[blackjack50]

These sound like some awesome ideas. I watched a game once where a friend had his players questing for animals (trying to stop a wizard from capturing them). The kicker was that the animals were all normal animals, but had certain magical abilities or resistance. Some could also hit people and cause them to lose a spell slot. He also had mixed in creatures that were resistant to any damage but magical too. So nobody felt underutilized. At least it didn’t seem so. :)

[Bjarkmundur]

Remove the survival skill.
Narrate and describe everything.
Roleplay.
I'm not helping.
Too early.
Need coffee before posting.
Takk fyrir í dag.

[Quoz]

If you want to make survival deadly and challenging, I would take a look at the Torchbearer RPG for inspiration. It's a simplified low fantasy system derived from an older game called Burning Wheel. It handles Tolkein-styled seasons long adventures and quests very well. Many of its ideas could be ported to D&D for a survival mode game.

- There are four phases of play. Town, travel, camp, and adventure

- inventory isn't calculated by weight, but by slots. Your belt can carry a water skin and a weapon. Your torso can carry armor, cloak, backpack, or coil of rope. A backpack gives more space, but you take a penalty in combat if wearing one. And dont forget you need to carry sacks to haul home any loot you find along the way.

- every roll you make contributes to the grind. Every 4 rolls you must consume rations and water or start taking conditions. This includes rolls to scavenge food or to cook, which stretches your rations further.

- failed rolls and critical hits can impose conditions, which are lasting penalties that will require specific checks to remove. Hungry is easy enough if you have food, but things like exhausted, sick, frightened or injured take more effort. And barring divine action, no one gets better from the 'dead' condition. You could also lose or damage your gear. A torn backpack, broken weapon or pierced waterskin can cause a lot of problems when you're lost in the wilderness.

[stoutstien]

If you want to make survival deadly and challenging, I would take a look at the Torchbearer RPG for inspiration. It's a simplified low fantasy system derived from an older game called Burning Wheel. It handles Tolkein-styled seasons long adventures and quests very well. Many of its ideas could be ported to D&D for a survival mode game.

- There are four phases of play. Town, travel, camp, and adventure

- inventory isn't calculated by weight, but by slots. Your belt can carry a water skin and a weapon. Your torso can carry armor, cloak, backpack, or coil of rope. A backpack gives more space, but you take a penalty in combat if wearing one. And dont forget you need to carry sacks to haul home any loot you find along the way.

- every roll you make contributes to the grind. Every 4 rolls you must consume rations and water or start taking conditions. This includes rolls to scavenge food or to cook, which stretches your rations further.

- failed rolls and critical hits can impose conditions, which are lasting penalties that will require specific checks to remove. Hungry is easy enough if you have food, but things like exhausted, sick, frightened or injured take more effort. And barring divine action, no one gets better from the 'dead' condition. You could also lose or damage your gear. A torn backpack, broken weapon or pierced waterskin can cause a lot of problems when you're lost in the wilderness.

I looked at using a slot based inventory but settled on a bulk rule instead. I wanted adventuring feat to be useful without getting into the detail on how each individual carried it. Bulk is quite simple. Every item has a bulk rating from 1/4 to 5. A player can comfortably carry up to a bulk rating a 10+2 for every in strength above 10.

If you are carrying over your bulk and try to move faster than a slow pace you must make a con save 10 for every 4 hours of travel or suffer from exhaustion. The DC increases by 5 for every 4 hours unless you take a S/L rest.
*I'm playing around with it causing increased food/water also.*

Some weaker class features and feats are going to tie directly into this system. Players can reduce the bulk of worn armor (fighters) or supplement food rations so they last longer (rangers).

[moonfly7]

Make sure they learn early on what kind of shelter they build matters. Leos hut only lasts for an hour, so sleeping in trees, securing food, building a barrier of thorn brush and sharpened stakes? They need to keep this in mind when camping. A badly designed camp for their terrain will attract predators in the night.
And don't forget about bugs, if they sleep on the ground in the jungle or rain forest or the like, have them make con saves to see if all the bugs keep them awake at night. Sleeping on the ground can be itchy and annoying, and it's easy to only get an hour or two of sleep, if so, I'd have them make a con save against exhaustion, especially if it happens several times in a row.
Remember, Leo's won't help against the bugs already INSIDE the hut.

[Shabbazar]

To survive, PCs need air, water, food, and maintain their core body temperature.

Air is a given unless you want to throw in a whitewater rapid for them to traverse. Or unless you are having them explore an underwater world. The second is more of a spell issue than class ability issue. Maybe have them get caught up in seaweed while spearfishing?

Water could be contaminated. They either need to purify it with a spell or build something like a solar still to evaporate and condense it. Or build a field expedient filter. I suspect the purify spells are not high on a lot of spellcaster's lists so that might be an area where a skill could come into play.

Finding water is probably not an issue. If they know they are traveling across a desert then they will probably plan to have someone or something to create water.

Food can come in a variety of ways. If they are searching for wild edible plants there are numerous poisonous look-alikes. If they aren't real familiar with the terrain they might pick these by accident. If you don't want to mess with the players, mess with their pack animals. Animals transplanted into unfamiliar terrain can sometimes eat poisonous plants they aren't familiar with or adapted to avoid. Many poisonous plants have very rapid onset of symptoms. Having half your pack animals die from eating something would be a real set-back, and potentially deadly under the right circumstances. Pack animals kind of continually graze/browse as they walk along. This is especially true of browsers like llamas.

If food comes from hunted animals, other predators may be interested in a meal. If you follow the Alone TV show, you know that most people on the show struggle to find enough food. One competitor in one season managed to kill a moose. He thought his food problems were over until the carcass attracted wolves and wolverines. If the PCs hunting success isn't an endless catch of rabbits, they are going to have to figure out how to cure and carry hundreds of pounds of meat. All while wolves and other predators circle their camp.

Moving on to maintaining core body temp. This is a function of good clothing, shelter and a fire. Given that a 1st level wizard can mold earth into a cave, light a fire with prestidigitation and clean, dry and warm clothing with prestidigitation, I'm not sure what the ranger or druid or wandering barbarian is going to bring to the table. And that's just with a couple cantrips.

[Shabbazar]

Make sure they learn early on what kind of shelter they build matters. Leos hut only lasts for an hour, so sleeping in trees, securing food, building a barrier of thorn brush and sharpened stakes?

Leo's hut lasts for 8 hours.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If food comes from hunted animals, other predators may be interested in a meal. If you follow the Alone TV show, you know that most people on the show struggle to find enough food. One competitor in one season managed to kill a moose. He thought his food problems were over until the carcass attracted wolves and wolverines. If the PCs hunting success isn't an endless catch of rabbits, they are going to have to figure out how to cure and carry hundreds of pounds of meat. All while wolves and other predators circle their camp.

Who then become more food. A pack of wolves is only going to be a threat to the lowest level of adventurers. They won't make survival harder they'll make it easier food that comes to you. If the PC's are in a consistent danger of being attacked by living creatures then they're must be water around. And they can eat the creatures. I had a Lizardman character in 3rd edition who during his adventuring career wrote a book called "The Bestiary Bistro" about how to fight and eat all kinds of monsters. Chimeria's Purple Worms, Dragons.



Moving on to maintaining core body temp. This is a function of good clothing, shelter and a fire. Given that a 1st level wizard can mold earth into a cave,
I don't actually agree with this, you can only excavate loose earth. Which is fine for digging a pit but a cave in loose earth seems like it'd easily collapse.



Make sure they learn early on what kind of shelter they build matters. Leos hut only lasts for an hour, so sleeping in trees, securing food, building a barrier of thorn brush and sharpened stakes? They need to keep this in mind when camping. A badly designed camp for their terrain will attract predators in the night.
And don't forget about bugs, if they sleep on the ground in the jungle or rain forest or the like, have them make con saves to see if all the bugs keep them awake at night. Sleeping on the ground can be itchy and annoying, and it's easy to only get an hour or two of sleep, if so, I'd have them make a con save against exhaustion, especially if it happens several times in a row.
Remember, Leo's won't help against the bugs already INSIDE the hut.
As already pointed out the spell lasts eight hours. Taking a torch you could easily smoke the bugs out of the tiny hut. And if you use this hut for shelter instead of tent poles dug into the ground you have poles dug into the ground to string hammocks.

[Vhaidara]

Water: need 2 gallons a day to prevent dehydration and an Additional one if the weather is hot.

I just wanted to jump in and point out that the recommended daily amount of water for a person to drink is HALF a gallon a day. 2 gallons is actually at the point of being unhealthy. 2 gallons is more in line with how much a person uses in a day between drinking, cooking, and hygiene. And is also a ridiculous amount of water to try and transport. One gallon of water is about 8.5lbs. So you're calling for 17lbs of water per person per day, if it's not hot.

[Jamesps]

For survival adventures I'd focus less on finding food and water and more on weather events. Weather in fantasy worlds can be crazy. Dust storms that bury cities, tornadoes, freezing rain, literal cats and dogs raining from the sky. And don't forget magical storms! Nothing ruins a good leomund's tiny hut like a storm that cancels magical effects, or turns any magical effect into a wild surge.

If you want to make survival a big thing in DnD with the current rules just make it more aggressive.

[stoutstien]

I just wanted to jump in and point out that the recommended daily amount of water for a person to drink is HALF a gallon a day. 2 gallons is actually at the point of being unhealthy. 2 gallons is more in line with how much a person uses in a day between drinking, cooking, and hygiene. And is also a ridiculous amount of water to try and transport. One gallon of water is about 8.5lbs. So you're calling for 17lbs of water per person per day, if it's not hot.

It was liters so it is a miss type on my part. It is actually less than a realistic amount but I want immersion not reality.

I'll fix the original post.

I am going to end up with just calling them something simple. One water skin hold 2 units idea

[stoutstien]

For all that are mentioned it, weather is going to big a huge part of all three pillars of play. I haven't solidified a system yet. So far Everytime they move from one block of time to another the weather can shift.
If they are going to travel to an area that severe weather is more common(more than a 10% chance) they will most likely be warned.

[Fable Wright]

I'd change the Goodberry nerf to expending the material component. Turn it from a constant tool into an expendable treasure reward, really.

Purify Food and Water is probably fine as it is. You can already do that with boiling and cooking for the most part. I'm OK with players burning a spell known for a slightly faster cook time.

[stoutstien]

I'd change the Goodberry nerf to expending the material component. Turn it from a constant tool into an expendable treasure reward, really.

Purify Food and Water is probably fine as it is. You can already do that with boiling and cooking for the most part. I'm OK with players burning a spell known for a slightly faster cook time.

It's a ritual and it fixes poison and disease in a 5ft area

[Fable Wright]

It's a ritual and it fixes poison and disease in a 5ft area

And that breaks things... how?

"I spend 10 minutes setting up an Indian Fire Pit to quickly boil the water to make it safe to drink."

Vs

"I spend 10 minutes ritual casting Purify Food and Drink to make it safe to drink."

Or

"I roast the squirrel on a spit to make it safe to consume"

Vs

"I spend ten minutes casting Purify Food and Drink... and then roast the squirrel on a spit because ew, raw squirrel."

The only time it might come up and have a difference in game is poisonous berries, which a Nature check or Detect Poison and Disease can easily resolve. It's the same effect, just different aesthetics. What's the issue leaving it as is? :smallconfused:

[Lord Vukodlak]

And that breaks things... how?

"I spend 10 minutes setting up an Indian Fire Pit to quickly boil the water to make it safe to drink."

Vs

"I spend 10 minutes ritual casting Purify Food and Drink to make it safe to drink."

Or

"I roast the squirrel on a spit to make it safe to consume"

Vs

"I spend ten minutes casting Purify Food and Drink... and then roast the squirrel on a spit because ew, raw squirrel."

The only time it might come up and have a difference in game is poisonous berries, which a Nature check or Detect Poison and Disease can easily resolve. It's the same effect, just different aesthetics. What's the issue leaving it as is? :smallconfused:

I spend ten minutes to make the one hundred pounds of meat I hunted three days ago safe to eat, or make a thousand galleons of swamp water I put in a barrel water safe to drink. Its going to greatly extend the viability of any perishable food and make clean water trivial.

[stoutstien]

I spend ten minutes to make the one hundred pounds of meat I hunted three days ago safe to eat, or make a thousand galleons of swamp water I put in a barrel water safe to drink. Its going to greatly extend the viability of any perishable food and make clean water trivial.

Pretty much this. It need a smaller volume cap. This spell alone makes exploration hard to run in a meaningful way.

[opaopajr]

Banning outright is A-OK until you have your desired playstyle. Then you can re-add adjusted versions to experiment. Remember, less variables makes the equation easier! Banning is the cleanest, most focused solution; it is used in CCGs for a reason. :smallcool:

Pare down to the essentials you want first! :smallsmile:

If it was me:

My first issue is remove Long Rest heals HP back to full.
Then adjust Long Rest Hit Dice Regeneration to campaign playstyle.
Next ban outright problem spells.
Finally restrict access to Backgrounds & Classes that need fine-tuning.



See how that runs and adjust playstyle recipe accordingly. :smallcool:

[stoutstien]

Banning outright is A-OK until you have your desired playstyle. Then you can re-add adjusted versions to experiment. Remember, less variables makes the equation easier! Banning is the cleanest, most focused solution; it is used in CCGs for a reason. :smallcool:

Pare down to the essentials you want first! :smallsmile:

If it was me:

My first issue is remove Long Rest heals HP back to full.
Then adjust Long Rest Hit Dice Regeneration to campaign playstyle.
Next ban outright problem spells.
Finally restrict access to Backgrounds & Classes that need fine-tuning.



See how that runs and adjust playstyle recipe accordingly. :smallcool:

I'm not too worried about trying the reigns in HP regeneration. I want the game to be more filling and challenging not just more deadly.

I could just go down the list and remove spells and effects that bypass environmental, exploration, and logistical supply portions of the game. it would be easier and quick but I am enjoying the personal challenge of keeping as much in the Game as possible.

A divine caster cleaning food and water is fine it just need a limit to prevent from hand waving the issue.

Another option is to add consumable spell components too all the spells that are on the list. Others above have brought it up and it's tempting for a faster fix. Do you spend an hour looking for food or the spell component to cast goodberry?

[opaopajr]

Removing [Magic] Focus so as to rely on Material components is a useful solution. :smallsmile: That way you the GM control a part of the spell economy. Good idea. Best of luck!

[stoutstien]

Question for those who care: is the exploration pillar rewarding in 5e? If not what would be something you would like to see changed to make it rewarding.

[opaopajr]

Question: Exploration rewarding?

Answer: As is now, RAW, w/ optional material? No.

Even w/o optional material (I include stuff beyond Basic D&D 5e, such as the extra races, classes, and spells in the PHB)? No.

I love the Exploration pillar and Strategic resource management, so this is a big 5e disappointment for me. I have to adjust 5e heavily for my desired playstyle.

[Nagog]

Here's a fun idea for food: Survival check to know where to find prey, stealth to track it, then an attack roll to kill it. If the animal isn't killed with the first attack, the animal uses it's reaction to run, and the survival/stealth/attack check is repeated. This really brings a lot of weight to Hunter's Mark, and Rangers in general. Conversely, a survival or medicine check to determine if plants found with Investigation or Perception are edible or not. Plants won't provide as much food as meat, but they're easier to obtain.
For exploration, I believe the reason most campaigns gloss over it is due to the lack of immediately exciting things for the players to do, as most of the joy of exploration is finding new things and enjoying the beauty of the area. While wonderful and enjoyable irl, at a tabletop such sights are seen over the span of a moment while it's described or over a few moments as the playmat is set up with models and props. To add some of the atmosphere, I'd recommend keeping a close eye on everybody's passive perceptions and describing how much ambiance they notice (midway through a roll, tell the ranger they hear something passing through the trees not far to their left. This creature may never actually come into contact with the party, but the knowledge of the unknown skirting so close will add to the atmosphere of traveling through the wilderness.

[Fable Wright]

Here's a fun idea for food: Survival check to know where to find prey, stealth to track it, then an attack roll to kill it. If the animal isn't killed with the first attack, the animal uses it's reaction to run, and the survival/stealth/attack check is repeated.

Okay but is this fun? Doing that every time you hunt meat for a 20-day journey seems monotonous, repetitive, and doesn't exactly help with making something new and exciting.

To make exploration rewarding, you need some mechanic to, well, reward players for engaging in it, and scale up the levels of reward with more investment in that pillar of the game. Something like minor one-time benefits or temporary morale boosts from seeing new sights that they never had before. (Several instances of Inspiration stockpiled for you?) Something to make exploration more than a drag on resources.


I spend ten minutes to make the one hundred pounds of meat I hunted three days ago safe to eat, or make a thousand galleons of swamp water I put in a barrel water safe to drink. Its going to greatly extend the viability of any perishable food and make clean water trivial.

I mean, you can make the meat safe to eat indefinitely with Gentle Repose, which isn't on the nerf/ban list. And while you're right on the swamp water thing, it's entirely dependent on having something like a swamp to begin with.

I see where you're coming from, though.

[stoutstien]

Okay but is this fun? Doing that every time you hunt meat for a 20-day journey seems monotonous, repetitive, and doesn't exactly help with making something new and exciting.

To make exploration rewarding, you need some mechanic to, well, reward players for engaging in it, and scale up the levels of reward with more investment in that pillar of the game. Something like minor one-time benefits or temporary morale boosts from seeing new sights that they never had before. (Several instances of Inspiration stockpiled for you?) Something to make exploration more than a drag on resources.



I mean, you can make the meat safe to eat indefinitely with Gentle Repose, which isn't on the nerf/ban list. And while you're right on the swamp water thing, it's entirely dependent on having something like a swamp to begin with.

I see where you're coming from, though.

I looked at gentle repose and almost added it to list of spells that I want to alter but the copper coins on the eyes keeps it from really being used as a way to store game meant to be consumed long term.

I agree that if something is being added to the game to be more challenging than it needs to be equally rewarding.
The risk/reward of trying to sustain yourself on foraging and Hunter vs buying food is a great example of allowing the players' choices drive a better story.

[Keravath]

i do spend alot of time outdoors.

I know DND is a poor simulation but I think it can be made a factor. The big factor here is time. I want traveling to be a big deal. Far away lands of wonder stay that way because they are hard to get too and are resource intensive.

If the destination is in the middle of a frozen tundra the prep work before the first step out should be as rewarding and important as any combat. Reaching the lost city buried in the ice is rewarding because now they earned it.

You mention the "big factor here is time".

However, I think the "big factor here is fun".

D&D is a fun game, you play heroic characters, fighting battles, winning through ability, perseverance, spells, good strategy and tactics.

There is a reason that the D&D rules for obtaining potable food and water, camping in the wilds, preparing shelter, dealing with extremes of temperature are simplified. How many people do you know want to play a camping simulation?

Yes, additional outdoor challenges can provide some additional obstacles to be overcome. However, they aren't dynamic, it isn't fun to determine if you can find enough water to survive. Three days without and you die off. Ooops. The reason most of the outdoor challenges devolve into a skill check against a character ability (if one is required at all) is because most characters are assumed to have the skills needed to survive in the wild in the first place. On top of that, there is magic available to supplement. Almost every casting class has a cantrip that will start and put out camp fires. That is immensely useful.

Anyway, perhaps your players enjoy all the itemized accounting required for gear weight, bulk and arranging how to carry it along with their armor and weapons. Perhaps your players enjoy hundreds of random encounters as they try to hunt the next squirrel or deer or fish to supply their next meal. Find water that they can boil or purify to remove parasites and diseases. However, in my personal experience most players aren't interested in anything with that level of detail because it generally doesn't provide any level of fun and doesn't provide any additional challenge since very simply you either survive in the wilderness or you die.

I've been camping for years, the longest trip was a nine day canoe/portaging trip where we carried in all our food in a barrel that needed to be hung in the trees to minimize the risk of bears getting to it. Boiled water or water purification tablets. Lots of dehydrated fruit and vegetables. It was an amazing trip but honestly, none of it would map well to a role playing game. It just wouldn't be fun to play.

Finally, a related anecdote, I played an extreme low magic D&D based RPG a long time ago. There was a group of six and we were all men at arms for the local lord. We ate, we drank beer (some water), trained, went on a daily patrol, stood watch at night ... it was probably as close to being a simulation of the life of a medieval man at arms that I have ever run across and it was also the most boring RPG I have ever played. A lot of challenging real life situations, like surviving, finding food, potable water and shelter, are very boring when mapped to an RPG unless for one specific case or instance with unique or unusual challenges. The everyday challenges of surviving just don't really make a good RPG unless you have a very specific group of players.

Anyway, making up house rules for some of this is kind of cool but I'd suggest carefully considering if it is worthwhile to make exploration more interesting by making it more realistic since the odds are good that it won't be much fun to actually play.

[stoutstien]

You mention the "big factor here is time".

However, I think the "big factor here is fun".

D&D is a fun game, you play heroic characters, fighting battles, winning through ability, perseverance, spells, good strategy and tactics.

There is a reason that the D&D rules for obtaining potable food and water, camping in the wilds, preparing shelter, dealing with extremes of temperature are simplified. How many people do you know want to play a camping simulation?

Yes, additional outdoor challenges can provide some additional obstacles to be overcome. However, they aren't dynamic, it isn't fun to determine if you can find enough water to survive. Three days without and you die off. Ooops. The reason most of the outdoor challenges devolve into a skill check against a character ability (if one is required at all) is because most characters are assumed to have the skills needed to survive in the wild in the first place. On top of that, there is magic available to supplement. Almost every casting class has a cantrip that will start and put out camp fires. That is immensely useful.

Anyway, perhaps your players enjoy all the itemized accounting required for gear weight, bulk and arranging how to carry it along with their armor and weapons. Perhaps your players enjoy hundreds of random encounters as they try to hunt the next squirrel or deer or fish to supply their next meal. Find water that they can boil or purify to remove parasites and diseases. However, in my personal experience most players aren't interested in anything with that level of detail because it generally doesn't provide any level of fun and doesn't provide any additional challenge since very simply you either survive in the wilderness or you die.

I've been camping for years, the longest trip was a nine day canoe/portaging trip where we carried in all our food in a barrel that needed to be hung in the trees to minimize the risk of bears getting to it. Boiled water or water purification tablets. Lots of dehydrated fruit and vegetables. It was an amazing trip but honestly, none of it would map well to a role playing game. It just wouldn't be fun to play.

Finally, a related anecdote, I played an extreme low magic D&D based RPG a long time ago. There was a group of six and we were all men at arms for the local lord. We ate, we drank beer (some water), trained, went on a daily patrol, stood watch at night ... it was probably as close to being a simulation of the life of a medieval man at arms that I have ever run across and it was also the most boring RPG I have ever played. A lot of challenging real life situations, like surviving, finding food, potable water and shelter, are very boring when mapped to an RPG unless for one specific case or instance with unique or unusual challenges. The everyday challenges of surviving just don't really make a good RPG unless you have a very specific group of players.

Anyway, making up house rules for some of this is kind of cool but I'd suggest carefully considering if it is worthwhile to make exploration more interesting by making it more realistic since the odds are good that it won't be much fun to actually play.

As I said realism is not the goal but making exploration rewarding is. The practical hand waving of an entire pillar of play is the state of 5e as presented is a sad affair.

The survival aspect shouldn't be a stand in play unless they plan poorly in a situation that calls for it. In most cases they wont need to consider it past buying arrows and rations for the trip and making sure they don't camp too close the white dragon's hunting range unless they want to deal with it. But finding a map giving a fairly detailed account of a lost city filled with ancient wonders a good 4 weeks from the nearest settlement in the heart of a frozen wasteland?
The reason that the lost temple in the middle of the tundra hasn't been explored isn't that every NPC other than the PCs are lazy but rather it is cost prohibited and dangerous.

Sure you can just say buy a coat and do a 6 weeks later traveling Montage but it overlooks the one good way to have gates in a sandbox style game without just arbitrarily having the world level with the party. The higher dangers dwell in the lands that are far away and only a party full of brave adventures will dare go. Not a lv one druid with goodberry and fist full of Holly.

[Nagog]

Okay but is this fun? Doing that every time you hunt meat for a 20-day journey seems monotonous, repetitive, and doesn't exactly help with making something new and exciting.

To make exploration rewarding, you need some mechanic to, well, reward players for engaging in it, and scale up the levels of reward with more investment in that pillar of the game. Something like minor one-time benefits or temporary morale boosts from seeing new sights that they never had before. (Several instances of Inspiration stockpiled for you?) Something to make exploration more than a drag on resources.

I mean, you can make the meat safe to eat indefinitely with Gentle Repose, which isn't on the nerf/ban list. And while you're right on the swamp water thing, it's entirely dependent on having something like a swamp to begin with.

I see where you're coming from, though.


I looked at gentle repose and almost added it to list of spells that I want to alter but the copper coins on the eyes keeps it from really being used as a way to store game meant to be consumed long term.

I agree that if something is being added to the game to be more challenging than it needs to be equally rewarding.
The risk/reward of trying to sustain yourself on foraging and Hunter vs buying food is a great example of allowing the players' choices drive a better story.

I wouldn't have it done every day, but frequently. I mean it's much less monotonous than rolling one dice every day for food, and it's essentially running a realistic hunt as combat. I think it would be great fun, and would provide good ways to hook in encounters and other dangers. For example, the ranger shoots a deer. It survives and runs away. You're tracking it, but it's bleeding. The scent of blood attracts other predators, which may lead to a combat encounter.