Shadowcrafting magic items

[Raishoiken]

Is there any way a shadowcraft mage can use shadow illusion to place altered versions of the applicable illusion spells into magic items? The ability changess the illusions spell's effect and even subschool, although I'd wager it be fair to have to stick to a single choice similar to polymorph n the like
Any thoughts?

[Raishoiken]

No one have any insight?

[Jay R]

I've never seen it come up. The books don’t make this clear, so it’s a judgment call for the DM.

I see two ways to rule. Either

A. The item only has Heightened Silent Image (or whatever) in it, and any arcane caster could use it to cast a Silent Image, but only a Shadowcraft Mage could use it as a Conjuration or Evocation spell, or
B. The spell is infused with shadow already, and any caster can use it as a Conjuration or Evocation spell.

B seems like it makes a magic item far too powerful for the cost. I could make a wand of "any Conjuration or Evocation".

It seems to me that this question is based on when the Shadowcraft Mage infuses the figment with shadow material -- in the preparation, or in the casting.

A SM can prepare a Heightened Silent Image in the morning, and then later in the day decide to use it as a Conjuration or Evocation spell, or to just use it as a Silent Image. That decision is made when it's cast.

If I were DM, I would probably rule that the Shadowcraft Mage can put the actual spell he's casting (Heightened Silent Image, for instance) in a device. Then somebody using the device can cast a Heightened Silent Image.

But only a Shadowcraft Mage could use that spell to simulate a Conjuration or Evocation spell.

The logic is that when a Shadowcraft Mage memorizes the spell, he doesn't need to decide which Conjuration or Evocation spell he's going to duplicate, so that isn't part of the preparation. It's part of the casting. Therefore only somebody who knows how to do that with the casting can do it.

That leads to the next question: If a Shadowcraft Mage found, for instance, a wand of Major Image, he could infuse those spells with Shadow and cast Conjuration or Evocation spells with it? This gets back to the powerful magic item quandary. A wand of fourth level figment spell is a fairly cheap way to be able to cast any third (or fourth, with Earth Spell) level C&E spell.

It occurs to me that there is a third way to rule.

C. A Shadowcraft Mage can put a Heightened Silent Image with infused Shadow material into a device -- but then only somebody with Heightened Silent Image with infused Shadow material on their spell list can use it.

This allows them to make items with their own spell abilities, without giving those abilities to non-SMs

I'd like to hear some other people's ideas on it.

But remember that whatever conclusion we come to, it remains a judgment call, and the DM at the table will make the final call.

[Raishoiken]

I've been afraid of it defaulting to "too unclear to be clear" as it's crucial to a part of a thought exercise I'm working on

[Jay R]

Well, what's the thought exercise? We're more likely to be able to help you if you tell us the actual issue you want help with.

[Raishoiken]

Well, what's the thought exercise? We're more likely to be able to help you if you tell us the actual issue you want help with.

Well, my thought was that a shadowcraft mage with an 11th level slot available should be able to mimic an epic spell seeing as how they count as 10th level spells for statistical reasons. Given this assumption in addition to the one that permits using the shadow illusion class feature should allow you to cheat epic spell magic items since while you aren't allowed to place actual epic spells into magic items, shadow illusion spells aren't becoming the spells they imitate so they aren't actually epic spells; merely reminiscent there of

[Jay R]

I hope somebody can help you, but it isn't me. I have no interest in playing at the epic level, and have never read the rules for it.

[Raishoiken]

I hope somebody can help you, but it isn't me. I have no interest in playing at the epic level, and have never read the rules for it.

Seems not to be an uncommon disinterest.


Is there anyone else who might have an inkling or input?

[Telonius]

Shadow Conjuration can already come in Wand form (since it's a 4th-level spell). I would say that if you have a regular wand of that, it would take effect as a regular casting of Shadow Conjuration; meaning, the spell takes effect as usual, and you decide what it mimics when you cast it.

A regular caster could reasonably make an Eternal Wand of Greater Shadow Conjuration (or any of the other "cast any spell as a shadow/illusion etc variety) and have it work much the same way. So you already do have some form of what you're trying to do.

As for Shadowcraft Mage, their bonuses to the reality of their illusions and figments are class features, not spells. A Silent Image heightened up to 9 (or whatever), in Eternal Wand format, would just be a very hard-to-dispel-and-save-against Silent Image, not changeable into anything else (except by another Shadowcraft Mage).

[Raishoiken]

Shadow Conjuration can already come in Wand form (since it's a 4th-level spell). I would say that if you have a regular wand of that, it would take effect as a regular casting of Shadow Conjuration; meaning, the spell takes effect as usual, and you decide what it mimics when you cast it.

A regular caster could reasonably make an Eternal Wand of Greater Shadow Conjuration (or any of the other "cast any spell as a shadow/illusion etc variety) and have it work much the same way. So you already do have some form of what you're trying to do.

As for Shadowcraft Mage, their bonuses to the reality of their illusions and figments are class features, not spells. A Silent Image heightened up to 9 (or whatever), in Eternal Wand format, would just be a very hard-to-dispel-and-save-against Silent Image, not changeable into anything else (except by another Shadowcraft Mage).

Shadow conjuration/evocation dont work the way i need them to because they're capped at 6th level spells, and i need the replication of 10th level (epic spells). This is why im curious as to whether or not a SCM can make shadow illusion silent image magic items. Or whether any other class that alters spells in some way outside metamagic can for that matter. I may make a thread dedicated to that more specific question as well

[Jay R]

Shadow conjuration/evocation dont work the way i need them to because they're capped at 6th level spells, and i need the replication of 10th level (epic spells). This is why im curious as to whether or not a SCM can make shadow illusion silent image magic items. Or whether any other class that alters spells in some way outside metamagic can for that matter. I may make a thread dedicated to that more specific question as well

Telonius seems to have answered in with his precise analysis. You can put spells into a magic item; you cannot put your class features into one.

To do what you're talking about would require special permission from your DM, and probably special pricing as well.

[Bphill561]

As stated above, having your supernatural ability from shadowcraft mage apply to items you make would require DM permission as there is nothing that specifically allows that.

There is one kind of close exception, and that is the Residual Metamagic feat from complete mage. This allows the shadowcraft mage him/herself to count as the caster when activating a wand or scroll.


Well, my thought was that a shadowcraft mage with an 11th level slot available should be able to mimic an epic spell seeing as how they count as 10th level spells for statistical reasons. Given this assumption in addition to the one that permits using the shadow illusion class feature should allow you to cheat epic spell magic items since while you aren't allowed to place actual epic spells into magic items, shadow illusion spells aren't becoming the spells they imitate so they aren't actually epic spells; merely reminiscent there of

This one is a little more tricky. You can get to 11th level spells with Heighten, Earthspell, and Sanctum metamagic added together. This is all doable pre-epic. The problem is the epic spell itself. While epic spells have schools allowing you to copy the standard Evocation, Conjuration (Creation), and Conjuration (Summoning); they are not considered wizard/sorcerer spells. This means by default you cannot copy them. Now there is the standard trick of using feats and such to add spells to your caster list (arcane disciple, diversified casting, etc.) which allows for duplication since shadow conjuration does not specify the spell has to be on the Wiz/Sor list, just a wiz/sor spell. Unfortunately the only way to know an Epic spell is through the epic spell research itself. So...

1) You need to have 9th level wiz or sor casting.
2) You need epic spell casting feat and epic level to acquire.
3) You need to research a spell (ouch on time, money, xp, spellcraft skill bonus)

At this point you know the spell, so as long as the DM is okay with it counting as a Wiz/Sor spell for your character, you could copy it. This would still be an amazing trick as you could bypass any mitigating factors such as xp, extra spell slots to burn, casting time requirements, etc. Also you could potentially apply metamagic feats since you would not be applying it to an epic spell directly. Downside besides 1, 2, and 3 is you would still be stuck with evocation and conjuration. I think I would go with the mythal seed from Lost Empires of Faerun to make a do everything ward and then acorn of far travel to count as being inside it. Maybe the best way to buff without transmutation. But overall, you will run into the standard problems of acquiring an epic spell.

Pet project number 2, is the Eldritch master from Dragon Magazine #280 :smallbiggrin:. That prestige class does not progress spell casting, but does give a number of interesting benefits including adding spell lists you can learn spells from. The part that maybe of interest to you is at levels 3, 6, and 9 it grants a spell slot one level higher than can currently cast plus a spell known at that level. So lets say ....

Sorcerer 13/Shadowcraft mage 5/ Eldritch Master 3

You have 9th level spells by level 18, and you pick up a 10th level spell slot at level 21. You can also take epic spell casting at level 21. Not sure if by RAW gaining a 10th level spell through this class would count as gaining an epic level spells, but that is as close as I can get and those are the only 10th levels spells. You can certainly go wizard or more PrC's in the build, just going simple and EM is more geared towards spontaneous casters. There is also the sort of similar Eunuch Warlock from Oriental adventures. Besides the obvious ouch; it takes 5 levels to kick in, does not talk about spells known, and was errata'ed in a dragon magazine oriental adventures 3.5 updated to work completely different. The poor Vanara race got castrated as well in that update.