How to give the fighter a way to.... actually fight

[Trandir]

Ok everybody and his dog knows that fighters suck past level 6 and with ACF so just to have some fun how would you repair a class created broken?
And if possible give him an actual identity that is not the 1/2 level dip for proficiency and bonus feats.

What would you do?

Some upgrades that probably everyone would aggre on:

Increase HD to 12
Give it 4+int skill ranks per level
Improve the skill list


Some of my random ideas:

1) Bonus feat

Give them a feat at every level instead of every even level. 27 feats over 20 levels probably could allow for some more fighting prowess.

2) Magic conductor: you lack any form magic so it just flows trough you without harm.

From 5th level and for 1+ class levels/2 times per day (max 11 times at level 20) you can make a spell pass trough you without harm: if you are targeted by a spell that allow spell resistance the spell bounce to another legal target within 30 feet of you (chosen by the caster). At 9th level you can use maic conductor against spell-like abilities. At 13th level you can instead disperd it without any harm to anyone. At 17th you can choose the new targets of the spells/spell-like ability.


3) Martial master maneuvers: your training with a weapon gives you the ability to perform special maneuvers.

You essentially build a tactical feat composed of 2 maneuvers and 1 stance for your weapon type of choice. Maybe a little tricky to balance but anything you give to a fighter is less powerfull than a fullcaster so who cares.
ex:
Polearm mastery:
While using a polearm you get +1 to attack rolls and dmage rolls and you get access to the following maneuvers.
Executioner's blow: if you attack a prone enemy your critical range and multiplier is increased by 2. An halbert would get critical 18-20 with crit ×5. Special: this modifiers are the last to be applyed.

Pole lever: instead of making a normal attack you can do a trip attempt that provoke and attack of opportunity, unless you have the improved trip feat. This is a normal tip check exept that the opponent doesn't receive any size bonus. If you win the check you can move your opponent to any square you threaten and has to make a reflex save throw (DC 10+BAB+1.5 Str. mod.) or fall prone and receive 2d6 dmage per every size larger than small. Special: You can use this feat only it the opponent isn't prone. You can use this maneuver as part of a full attack and can be used on the same enemy if it fails or multiple different enemies. You can use this maneuver on creatures up to 2 sizes larger than you if they stand on two feets and 1 size larger if stands on three or more legs. You can use this maneuver only if the enemy weights less than twice your heavy load.

Defensive stance: entering this stance is a swift action or a free action after a succesful attack. While in this stance the polearm damage is reduced to match a quarterstaff of appropriate size, you get +2 to reflex and +1 to AC. If an enemy enters a square that you threaten or fails to hit you with an attack it provokes an AoO. If you use your AoO for a tript attempt you get a +4 bonus to the check. If you use your AoO to attack you get +2 to the attack roll and if the enemy is hit and is vulnerable to precision damage it has to make a fortitude ST with DC equal to the damage inflicted, if it fails it gets -2 to AC, ST, attack rolls for 1d4 rounds (multiple hits stack). After you attack you can exit this stance to do a bonus attack at full BAB and with the polearm original damage dice. Special: you can enter and exit this stance only once per round each round (you can exit it to make an extra attack and then re enter it but then you have to stay in it).


4) Superior armor/shiel proficiency: fighting is your life and your armor and shield kept you from losing it.

At 3rd level you reduce the armor and shield penality to strength and dexterity checks and abilities by 4+class level/3. At 7th level you increase the maximum dexterity bonus by class level/4. At 11th level you get damage reduction/- equal to the armor bonus (including the enchantment from the +s): +4/2/1 for heavy, medium and light armor respectively. At 15th level you can ignore the speed reduction of any armor and you can run with any armor. At 19th level as a move action you can reduce your movement speed to 5 (but no effect can reduce your speed any further), lose the ability to attack, automatically fail any reflex save, and you can't perform any ability check that requires Str or Dex.
You get a bonus to AC, fortitude, will, checks to resist bull rush, grapple and overrun equal to the feet lost (a human with 30 movement speed would get +25), and spell resistance equal to 10+feet of speed lost, you can't fall prone and you are considered as a creature of 2 size larger and your weight is 64 more than your regular one. You get damage reduction 30 to all energy types.

[False God]

"Stamina", like spell points but based off Str/Con/Dex (chosen at creation), similar to 5E's Battlemaster, granting extra attacks, extra damage dice, and "maneuvers" that you'd normally need a feat for, in exchange for burning "stamina points". Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, they'd all be built in, with some kind of appropriate point cost to use them, freeing up your feats to take more interesting things.

[Faily]

Bring in things like Armor Training and Weapon Training from Pathfinder (as well as the Advanced options).

[Malroth]

The ability to swap bonus feats as a move action so they can adapt to a change in battlefield conditions.

The ability to grant their BAB to those acting under their command.

Dodge bonus to AC equal to half their level.

The ability to expend HP to negate spell effects on them.

Edit: An increase in reach every 4 levels.

[Rebel7284]

Play a Warblade? Certainly you can do a ton of work and end up with something on a similar power level after a ton of tuning, but Warblade is already printed and is perfectly playable well into the mid-high levels. If you want to keep all the feats, give the Warblade more feats..

[Trandir]

Play a Warblade? Certainly you can do a ton of work and end up with something on a similar power level after a ton of tuning, but Warblade is already printed and is perfectly playable well into the mid-high levels. If you want to keep all the feats, give the Warblade more feats..

I mean yes but then the fighter remains terrible.

There are lot of ways to be efficient with melee or archery but I was looking more to find a way so the fighter can do it rather than look for class that do the fighter but better

[Oberron]

I mean yes but then the fighter remains terrible.

There are lot of ways to be efficient with melee or archery but I was looking more to find a way so the fighter can do it rather than look for class that do the fighter but better

So are you wanting home brew solutions then? Because without that warble is pretty much the replaced fighter.

I always felt some skills should have more combat related uses or expand on their uses kinda like tactical feats do. Or give another use for grapple called "locked weapons" or whatever where the fighter and target have their weapons clashed and the target can't use his weapon until he beats the fighter's roll or w/e but neither can the fighter unless they have another weapon in hand or want to drop their weapon.

[Trandir]

So are you wanting home brew solutions then? Because without that warble is pretty much the replaced fighter.


Exactly, my random ideas in the OP should have gave that away.

[pabelfly]

I'd just add Pounce as a feat that requires Level 6 Fighter. The right Fighter build can do enough damage, the problem in higher levels is one where the effects of magic far outstrips martials hitting things and that can't be solved without reworking DnD entirely.

[Dimers]

What about the Fighter class makes them a Fighter, in your eyes? If we were homebrewing an entirely new class, what would make you say "Hmm, that seems like a Fighter"?

[RNightstalker]

I like the idea about feats every level.

[ekarney]

A couple things, I'd say give it a "feat casting" system
So every time you gain a bonus feat, you'd actually learn two feats, but you'd only have a certain number of feat slots. At the start of the day you prepare your feats for that day.

Example, a 6th level fighter would "know" 12 bonus feats, but would only be allowed to have any 6 of them equipped. So at the start of the day, they might decide to go and take the TWF chain of feats, then the next day, they go down the cleave line, etc.


I'd probably also rip off the serene guardian system, and tweak it a little bit. Instead of having resonance be produced from multiple attacks hit it, have it produced from multiple damage dice, or just get 1 point for every successful attack. Allow resonance to be stored in a pool, so you can save it up, and use it on whatever target you like, few other QOL tweaks as well.

I think if both of those systems were mashed together, you'd have a pretty solid fighter, that still retains it's meta-flavor as the feat fisher.

[Vizzerdrix]

Some way to shrug off spells based on fighter levels, an ewp every other level, a decent DR + damage bonus, and Id toss in some sort of list of boosts to pick from every 5th level. Maybe a low level spell a few times a day, or a movement boost or something.

Oh. Id also buff fighter bonus feats when taken by fighters.

[D+1]

Ok everybody and his dog knows that fighters suck past level 6 and with ACF so just to have some fun how would you repair a class created broken?
And if possible give him an actual identity that is not the 1/2 level dip for proficiency and bonus feats.

What would you do?

E6

This line inserted to meet 10 character minimum response

[radthemad4]

Spells
[Fighter]

Benefit: You learn three spells of a spell level half your Fighter level (round up) or lower from the Sorcerer list. You get three spell slots per day of this spell level, and may cast the spells you've known from this feat. Save DCs depend on your highest mental ability score, but there is no minimum score required for you to cast these spells. You also get bonus spells per day based on either your highest mental or physical stat.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times

More seriously, you need to ask yourself, 'What should fighter even mean anyway?' (easy enough), and then get everyone else to agree to that (really hard, but everyone at your table might be a saner target) because the RAW answer to 'What is a fighter anyway?' is 'Bonus Fighter Feats, the class'. This gives you two avenues you can approach, write feats gated with a fighter level prereq that give you effects that are level appropriate at the levels they're obtainable by fighters, or adding class features (okay, at least 4 skills per level and a better skill list, because that skill list sucks). Either way, you'll need to define what a fighter even is at first. Personally I'd prefer to just drop the class altogether as it doesn't have a clear theme anyway and there are other more thematic martials I like better.

[Sereg]

Firstly, I make full attacks a standard action.

Secondly, itteritives cap at a penalty of -5.

Thirdly, impose a penalty of 1, 2 and 4 to dice rolls when below 3/4, 1/2 and 1/4 hp.

Natural 20s auto-confirm crits and creatures formerly immune to precision damage now instead take half precision damage.

Now you can easily do a lot of damage and dealing damage actually matters.

Choose to have your choice of good Reflex or fort save.

Swachbuckler features are now fighter bonus feats.

Dungeon crasher is now a feat.

Get your choice of four exotic weapon/armour/tower shield proficiencies.

Fighters get full instead of half Initiator progression and fighter feats used to gain manuevers don't count towards your maximum number of times you can take the feat.

For the purpose of meeting prerequisites for fighter feats, fighters treat their skill ranks and BAB as if they are their fighter level higher and their ability scores as if they are half their fighter level higher.

Fighters gain 2 bonus fighter feats at first level, 3 at level 20 and 1 at all 18 other levels. In addition, each level, they may swap one of their fighter feats for another they qualify for. If they give up a feat that is a prerequisite for a prestige class or other feat they possess, they keep ALL benefits from that feat despite no longer having it.

Add feats which allow smashing through force effects, grabbing teleports out the air, hurting a caster by stabbing it's minions and/or projection/clone etc., charging to any point on the battlefield as an immediate action, jumping between continents, stealing/reversing/dispelling/zapping with buffs with an attack, treating buffs that reduce your chance to hit someone as if they do the opposite, etc.

There is one more addition, but it's a bit hard to to explain right now.

[Lans]

If you want to keep it simple, just up its skill points and saves a little, and crank up the amount of feats it gets maybe even expand what it can take

[Trandir]

If you want to keep it simple, just up its skill points and saves a little, and crank up the amount of feats it gets maybe even expand what it can take

The warrior from UA is that, almost. And yes a generic class is better than the fighter:

Bonus feat: one at fist level and one more every even level without any limitation

Saves: one good two poor but you can pick the good one

Skills: 6 that you can choose plus craft and still 2+int skill ranks

You only lose heavy armor proficiency and the tower shield.

[Anthrowhale]

The Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) provides a reasonable canned answer.

Choose your own skills for (say) Iajutsu Focus, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble, ??
Class features are feats for (say) Sneak Attack+2d6+3d6+4d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge.

It's not enough to be on par with spellcasters, but you can certainly easily do relevant damage with a good BAB and have some out of combat utility.

[farothel]

As GM, have some treats that only the fighter can get to, because they are resistant/immune to magic. Drow are quite good for that. Or have a larger group of lower level mooks plus some bosses. The mage (and cleric) can't be everywhere, so either they AoE the mooks, but then the fighters have to keep the bosses at bay, or they concentrate on the bosses and the fighter, with his cleave and great cleave feats, has to clean up the mooks.

Or set up something like Nakor described in Feist's books:
-mage one does trick, mage two counters trick, mage three supports mage one and mage four supports two and so on, until the army moves in and chops them all up.

[Lans]

The warrior from UA is that, almost. And yes a generic class is better than the fighter:

Bonus feat: one at fist level and one more every even level without any limitation

Saves: one good two poor but you can pick the good one

Skills: 6 that you can choose plus craft and still 2+int skill ranks

You only lose heavy armor proficiency and the tower shield.
The warrior is usually a tad better, but ACFs might weigh it in the fighters favor for some builds


I was thinking more in the line of half its level rounded up in feats, or more. I figure if some one wants to play a fighter either they want to delve into the feat mechanic or it would be better to use a warblade

[Trandir]

So you all would rather play other better classes rather than repair the fighter?

[AvatarVecna]

So, Spheres Of Power/Might are generally pretty nice, balanced-ish against each other and hovering near the border between T2 and T3 in general. The class most similar to Fighter is the Conscript (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conscript). Conscript is, if you look at it in a very straightforward sense, just an objectively better fighter: it gets two more skill points per level, it gets a few floating class skills, it has a good Ref save, and it gets the equivalent of 45 bonus feats over the course of its career instead of just 11. This amounts to "7 bonus feats at level 1, 2 bonus feats at every subsequent level".

Additionally, those 34 extra "bonus feat" equivalents it gets? Those are part of a brand new feat system that currently has around 700 feats added to the game, and they're all tied to a particular attribute for saves and bonuses granted (an attribute chosen from Int/Wis/Cha when you take Conscript in the first place). All of these new feats are designed to improve as you level up (something basically no fighter feat currently does), and are divided into 25 Spheres; all feats within a Sphere have significant synergy with each other (something most current fighter feats don't have), and many of them grant free skill ranks related to their theme. Oh yeah and some of these feats are explicitly "this existing feat, but better".

Additionally, a Conscript can forgo 2, 3, 5, or 7 bonus feats (to a maximum of 16 feats/"feats" forgone) in exchange for a bonus ability (or multiple bonus abilities, depending). These can include Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, PF-style Armor/Weapon Training, a good Will save, Evasion/Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, temporary flexible bonus feats, and specialization in a particular Sphere of "feats".

But honestly all of that is just...extra flexibility. At its core, Conscript is "fighter, but with more skills, more class skills (which you get to choose), a good Ref save, and 34 extra bonus feats, which are all themselves synergizing and constantly improving relative to your BAB/skills". And that...makes it a super-solid T3, possibly low T2 if you're built well and/or your DM is allowing Legendary Talents.

[AvatarVecna]

So you all would rather play other better classes rather than repair the fighter?

It's a couple things that kinda lead to that conclusion. The first is a desire not to create something new to give the final product some air of legitimacy. Like, okay, over in Pathfinder there's an optional ruleset for creating your own custom race, and basically everybody under the sun agrees that it's broken BS; even if the various racial abilities you could buy were properly balanced against each other (which they're not), making races so utterly flexible in design makes them infinitely easier to minmax. Sure, you could make a backstory for your particular race that just so happens to justify them having Cha +8, favored class sorcerer, and a small handful of "technically flaws, but they'll never come up", but at the end of the day, you could've simulated the race you described without minmaxing quite that hard, and that's always gonna be the question: if you're designing the race with a particular character in mind, how much can we trust that the positives won't synergize too well with the class you're aiming for, that the negatives won't be mitigated entirely by the build you have in mind?

It's much more legitimate to find an existing race that fits your concept well enough; a pathfinder Goblin gets low Str, low Cha, and super-high Dex (as well as fantastic stealth), which makes them bad paladins, but absolutely fantastic rogues. Sure, they were designed to be the ideal rogue race...but the weren't designed by the player who wanted to play rogue, and that makes it a bit less minmaxey: the person designing the race isn't the person playing it. Double-blind design, using existing classes to make a better version of what you wanna play, is much less questionable than homebrewing. EDIT: This is actually the basic idea behind one of the Optimization Contests here ITP (Zinc Saucier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?225187)): how would you build something that functions like [existing class], performs better than [that class], but has no levels in [that class]? As it happens, I put forth a build during the Fighter competition.

The other reason people go to that conclusion is that...well, even if you don't think homebrewing is that bad...you're not exactly re-inventing the wheel. You're not even re-re-inventing the wheel. It's probably not that much of an exaggeration to say that a thousand designers and homebrewers before you have taken a crack at fixing the fighter. They've tried everything, and it's out there, you just need to find it. I've seen fighters with 11 bonus feats, 20, 45, and 180 (the latter two of which also just get better feat/class feature options across the board). I've seen dozens of fighter fixes that lean hard into maneuvers, be they Tome Of Battle, Path Of War, online homebrew maneuver schools, or some mix of the three. Even if we just look at non-Conscript Spheres, there's seven archetypes designed to drag the Fighter up to T3 by making it work using Magic Talents or Combat Talents. Wanna give the fighter better skills, better saves, evasion, mettle, pounce, downgrading conditions, ignoring conditions by spending HP, delayed damage pools, floating bonus feats, shareable bonus feats? All of that's been done a hundred times in a thousand remakes. At least one of those has a level of power and flexibility that's explicitly supposed to make them compete with T1 casters. Grod has at least two fighter fixes that I could find, one of which is labelled "Fighter Fix #18343" - not accurate, just an exaggerated joke on the same exact point I'm making right now. Awhile back the playground ruminated on what a Pathfinder Fighter would look like if it took every archetype on the PFSRD, and the result is...probably solidly T2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23001101&postcount=29).

What could you do to make the fighter better at actually fighting? A better question is, what couldn't you do? Everything I can think of, I've seen done at least once. How will your specific fighter fix look? Who's to say. At the end of the day, the fighter has two major problems: it's not powerful enough, and it's not versatile enough. The fighter as it exists is kinda mediocre at one thing. You can make it more powerful in a hundred different ways. You can make it more versatile in a hundred different ways. How you mix and match those...kinda depends on how far you wanna take things.

[ben-zayb]

^ That's a way better explanation than I could write up, but just to add:
One of the main challenges that come up with homebrewers fixing the fighter is the hard limitation of the class based on its name. What does it mean to be a "Fighter"? What abilities and competencies should it have outside...fighting?

As repeated ad nauseum, raw numbers in combat are the least of the fighter's problems. Being nigh useless anywhere outside combat is.

[AvatarVecna]

^ That's a way better explanation than I could write up, but just to add:
One of the main challenges that come up with homebrewers fixing the fighter is the hard limitation of the class based on its name. What does it mean to be a "Fighter"? What abilities and competencies should it have outside...fighting?

As repeated ad nauseum, raw numbers in combat are the least of the fighter's problems. Being nigh useless anywhere outside combat is.

Seconding this. I've seen in far too many threads people arguing that Fighter shouldn't get Listen/Search/Spot/Perception as class skills because "it's not the Standing Guard class it's the Fighter class, and you don't need good perception to fight good". That All-Archetype Fighter thing I linked ends up with like 18 full-rank skills, basically every skill as a class skill, and 4th lvl prepared spellcasting does a ton for out-of-combat utility, and that's honestly probably why it's T2 instead of an incredibly overpowered T3 focused so hard on combat that they're relevant in a group full of sorcerers.

[Gnaeus]

I’m not really too upset with big stupid fighters who can only fight. But “only fighting” by itself has non combat applications.

By that I mean, to be able to fight well you have to be able to deal with invisible/incorporeal enemies. Flying enemies. Fast enemies with ranged attacks. Gaze attacks throwing SoD/Ls at you every round. You can’t become useless if you are disarmed, or your weapon is broken. Can’t be shut down by DR or high AC. Casters can do all that and fighters who want to be good at combat have to have solutions to all those issues.

So that’s why so many responses are “spells” or “maneuvers” because it’s the easiest way to do all that. And you probably can’t do all that without it having some non-combat applications.

[AvatarVecna]

I’m not really too upset with big stupid fighters who can only fight. But “only fighting” by itself has non combat applications.

By that I mean, to be able to fight well you have to be able to deal with invisible/incorporeal enemies. Flying enemies. Fast enemies with ranged attacks. Gaze attacks throwing SoD/Ls at you every round. You can’t become useless if you are disarmed, or your weapon is broken. Can’t be shut down by DR or high AC. Casters can do all that and fighters who want to be good at combat have to have solutions to all those issues.

So that’s why so many responses are “spells” or “maneuvers” because it’s the easiest way to do all that. And you probably can’t do all that without it having some non-combat applications.

Getting a fighter that's good enough at Fighting to always be pretty relevant makes them T4 (super-solid at one thing, in much the same way barbarian is). If we're wanting to get Fighter into T3, we need to give them some kinda utility, something that's useful outside of combat. Being able to fly is a method of dealing with flying enemies that's also useful outside of combat (since it's a mobility increase), but ranged weapons solve the "flying enemy" problem without increasing out-of-combat utility. Having feats and the like that mitigate the combat benefits of fighting specifically invisible/incorporeal enemies doesn't grant OOC utility, but better perception skills in general is useful beyond their application in combat. As examples, anyway.

[heavyfuel]

In recent times I've grown to really hate the Fighter class. Not because it's a weak class, but because it does nothing that isn't already offered by other classes.

Think about it. What archetype even is a fighter? What possible character concept can there be that isn't (at least somewhat) covered by another class?

For soldiers you have Knights and Marshals. Bandits you have Rogues. Holy warriors there are Paladins and Knights (again). Tribal warriors there's the Barbarian. Pirates you have Swashbucklers and Mariner from Dragonlance. Samurai have two Samurai classes. Even a common soldier with nothing special is better representeed by the Warrior NPC class.

So for my next game I decided Fighters wouldn't be a thing. Instead I gestalted Fighter with all of these classes, only keeping some things away for flavor (aka Barbarians still have only Med Armor, Rogues got only the feats and nothing else, etc)

I saw this on this forum a few years ago and - at the time - hated the idea. However, as time went on, I've grown to accept that, whoever it was that wrote it, was right. Fighters are a decent concept for a class when you have only 8 classes, but with the abundance of splat classes stepping on its toes, it kind of lost any meaning it might have had.

[Gallowglass]

Ok everybody and his dog knows that fighters suck past level 6 and with ACF so just to have some fun how would you repair a class created broken?


They do? I didn't know that. I have two dogs (three if you count the cat) and neither of them knew it either.
I quite have fun playing fighters.

Oh wait.

I play pathfinder.


Here's the deal and the fault with your premise (at least based on the title you gave it)

The fighter already fights just fine. He fights great.
Take a level appropriate fighter and it stacks up just fine against level appropriate beasties in the monstrous manual.

But it pales in comparison to a like levelled wizard?!

So what? Are you playing in PvP arena games or something?

A fighter fights great. The problem with the fighter is that, that's all they do.

So if you think the fighter is broken and want to fix it, then what you need to fix is the things the fighter can't do.

Move around really fast long distances
Succeed at skill contests in the social sphere
Manipulate the environment
Get information easily


All the things that the wizard gets with a small number of spells

For me, I don't find that terribly broken, but then again i play the game as a team sport. So if I'm the fighter I recognize those things as my teammates purview. My purview is taking 100 hp off a round and being able to keep going after the wizard is out of spells.

No, if I wanted to fix anything on the fighter, I'd fix the fact that each individual fighter is forced to specialize in only one type of combat in order to be good at it. I can either

be really good at hitting things with a large weapon
be really good at hitting things more often with two smaller weapons
be really good at hitting things from a distance
be really good at hitting things at reach with a large weapon and hoping they come close to me so i can hit them more
be really good at hitting things from the back of my mount
Be really good at hitting things with my fists (better than the monk for sure)

But I can't do more than one and be any good at it. Which, I think a fighter should be able to be good at both bows AND swords at the same time. So that's what I would want to fix.

[Calthropstu]

Give fighter sword. Fighter swing sword. Fighter now fighting.

[pabelfly]

In recent times I've grown to really hate the Fighter class. Not because it's a weak class, but because it does nothing that isn't already offered by other classes.

Think about it. What archetype even is a fighter? What possible character concept can there be that isn't (at least somewhat) covered by another class?

For soldiers you have Knights and Marshals. Bandits you have Rogues. Holy warriors there are Paladins and Knights (again). Tribal warriors there's the Barbarian. Pirates you have Swashbucklers and Mariner from Dragonlance. Samurai have two Samurai classes. Even a common soldier with nothing special is better representeed by the Warrior NPC class.

So for my next game I decided Fighters wouldn't be a thing. Instead I gestalted Fighter with all of these classes, only keeping some things away for flavor (aka Barbarians still have only Med Armor, Rogues got only the feats and nothing else, etc)

I saw this on this forum a few years ago and - at the time - hated the idea. However, as time went on, I've grown to accept that, whoever it was that wrote it, was right. Fighters are a decent concept for a class when you have only 8 classes, but with the abundance of splat classes stepping on its toes, it kind of lost any meaning it might have had.

I like this idea. It boosts weaker classes (would put monk in the mix too, but whatever) but doesn't buff already good martials like Warblade or Psychic Warrior or Swordsage, etc. Definitely stealing this idea for later.

[heavyfuel]

I like this idea. It boosts weaker classes (would put monk in the mix too, but whatever) but doesn't buff already good martials like Warblade or Psychic Warrior or Swordsage, etc. Definitely stealing this idea for later.

Feel free to steal it.

I should add that I also gestalt Fighters with Monks, Rangers (but not Mystic Rangers), and Hexblades. Swashbucklers are actually 3 classes in one (Swashbuckler+Fighter+Mariner)

[ngilop]

My usual when this comes up.


AT the very least. mundanes need the following types of actions

ways to affect all 3 saves
ways to cause different status effects (dazed, stunned, paralyzed, bleed etc)
ways to be able to use all 5 types of actions: full, move, standard, swift, immediate
ways to interact and affect the world outside of combat
ways to make combat more efficient for them than others in the case of fighters
way to do more than just damage HP, give them some kind of ability damage attacks


I did a couple fighter fixes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318268-My-Latest-big-project!-(-a-big-deal-fighter-fix)) both in 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424466-My-Third-Fighter-fix-trying-something-new) and pathfinder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568764-Pathfinder-Fighter-Re-Tool). Take a look at my designs and the philosophy behind them then try better to make mundanes better, hopefully, by not making them less useful and allowing fantastical heroes to actually BE fantastical.

ALSO: required reading (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276366-The-Fighter-Problem-amp-How-to-Fix-It)

[liquidformat]

so here is what I have done so far in my attempt to 'fix' things and make classes more interesting.

First and foremost I messed with how BAB functions for all characters:

You get iteratives for every 5 points of base attack bonus you have above 1.
+8 and +15 - additional attacks as standard action.
+12 - 1 attack as swift action.
+19 - 1 attack as a free action.

Properties of this progression:
1. For the price of a standard and a swift, at BAB+15 you do get 4 extra attacks, but not technically a full attack action, which some bits of the game specifically interact with(hence why it's okay to get these a BAB earlier than a regular 4-attack full attack).
2. You get a nice progression in the mid levels, where you keep getting interesting new options regularly.
3. A default use of your swift action, which for certain builds is a very good idea.
4. Swift actions count as free. So anytime you can act - including around AoOs, immediate actions, etc.
5. 1 attack as a free action is strong, but still pales in comparison to what casters do at these levels. Abuse potential indeterminate. Food for thought. Only counterpoint might be that it adds more of the same rather than interesting things to do. Quantitative rather than qualitative. Martials are significantly better served by the latter.

it is also worth looking through different feats and porting quite a few to mechanics that are available if you meet the requirements such as power attack, weapon finesse, point blank shot, brutal throw, power throw, power shot, combat expertise aimed shot, run, darkstalker, and reckless charge.

then also combining feat chains like two weapon fighting, spring attack and so on.

for the fighter itself:

first off I let them choose any 7 of the following skills to be class skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Iaijutsu Focus, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (History), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Perform (weapon Drills), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble.

beyond bonus feats they get the following:

Initiator transparency: Fighter levels count 1 to 1 as initiator levels, for purposes of qualifying for stances and maneuvers.

Armored Ease (Ex): The fighter learns to adapt their movements to the restrictive nature of armor. Beginning at 3nd level, they can lessen the armor check penalty of any armor with which they are proficient by 1 (minimum 0). For every 3 levels past level 3, armor check penalty is reduced by an additional 1 (minimum 0). At Level 9 the fighter is no longer encumbered by medium armor able to run at normal speed. At Level 15 the fighter is no longer encumbered by heavy armor able to run at normal speed.

Physical Prowess(Ex): At 5th level then again at 7th, 11th, and 17th the fighter gains a +1 bonus to one of the following checks. This choice can be adjusted each time he levels up to benefit a different ability. Grapple, Bull Rush, Feint, Trip, Sunder, Disarm.

Mobile Warrior (Ex): Starting at level 6 a fighter adds half their class level as a untyped bonus to AC and Initiative. This AC bonus applies even against touch attacks, however, it is lost when the fighter is flat-footed, immobilized, or helpless.

Warrior’s Charge (Ex): When a level 9 or above Fighter makes a charge, they can make a full attack at the end of their move action.

Elite Warrior (Ex): At level 13 a fighter gains mastery of any one initiator stance or maneuver of 7th level or lower regardless of prerequisites.

Master Warrior (Ex): A level 15 or above fighter may make a full attack as a standard action.

Capstone(Ex): A fighter at level 19 develops their own special move, this move can be chosen from the following list of capstone abilities of which the fighter meet prerequisites for.

still working on capstones.

[smetzger]

Changes I have made to Fighter for my table...
1) Gets 4 skill points per level. Choose any 2 additional skills as class skills.

2) Any Feat you qualify for can be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.

3) When advancing in fighter level you can swap out any number of feats for new feats that you qualify for.
There are no penalties if you swap out a feat that you used to qualify for another one of your feats.
For example: if you have power attack, cleave, great cleave you can swap out cleave for weapon focus and you can still use great cleave.

I am also considering for my next game giving the Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, Ranger, and Monk additional points in the point buy.

[Jopustopin]

Just want to throw my hat in the ring here. My approach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21867476&postcount=1) was to focus on what the Fighter was supposed to be, straight out of the PHB:

"Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities...In addition to general fighting prowess, each fighter develops particular specialties of his own. Lastly: The fighter excels in a straight fight, but he relies on others for magical support, healing, and scouting. On a team, it is HIS JOB TO MAN THE FRONT LINES, PROTECT OTHER PARTY MEMBERS, AND BRING THE TOUGH OPPONENTS DOWN."

Granted any skill that could conceivable help fighting, Great saving throws, doesn't encroach on anyone else's area of expertise, and have seen several games with my fighter and I can attest that he's every bit as capable as a Crusader/Warblade from levels 1 - 10. I haven't seen my fighter in a high level game but this feels like how the fighter was supposed to be in my opinion.

Anyway my fighter: Gets every basic fighting style at 1st level (because he's supposed to have the best-all around fighting capabilities), goes first in combat, gains blindsight against opponents, can retrain fighter feats, has multiple ways to stay in combat after failing a saving throw, can get an initiator level of 14 without multiclassing, can optimize his feat selection based on his level, has the warblade weapon aptitude ability in spades (applies to everything and eventually is a free action to swap designations), and really has a way to fight in most situations.

There is over a decade of available reading of other people's attempts to fix the fighter. There should be a contest! Best fighter fix!

[RNightstalker]

But I can't do more than one and be any good at it. Which, I think a fighter should be able to be good at both bows AND swords at the same time. So that's what I would want to fix.

When you say "good" at both, you mean...? Most characters are good at one, and serviceable at another. If you want to see one good at both, then houserule that a fighter taking the combat feats chooses a melee and ranged weapon when it comes to focus, specialization, etc. Once a fighter hits epic levels, he should still be getting an epic BAB every level, instead of a bad one. "Now that you're an epic fighter, the best of the best in martial combat (no laughing please), you get the same BAB as a wizard. Congratulations!"


Give fighter sword. Fighter swing sword. Fighter now fighting.

What a novel concept!

[DMVerdandi]

Hmm. So. I think it would be best to take as much as possible from the end state of 3.5/Pathfinder to remake the fighter. I would dissolve the tome of battle classes completely, and instead having the styles divided between the core physical classes.

As such, Rogue would have Shadow hand and diamond mind,

Barbarian would be renamed to berserker, and would get iron heart, stone dragon and tiger claw

Ranger would get tiger claw and shadow hand

Crusader would remain and replace paladin through a straight gestalt, and would get variant paladin spells and abilities based on alignment.

Monk would get Ki, Have setting sun and diamond mind.

All those things being said, the perfect fighter to me would be a pure fighting genius. The wizard of fighting.


Fighter would essentially have these features:

>D12, 6 skill points per level, Warblade skill list + Artificer Skill list

>Gestalted with Artificer

>1 floating Bonus Feat per 2 Levels, ending at level 10 with 5. Can be either fighter or artificer bonus feats.

>Proficient with all weapons and armor.

>Maneuvers, and can learn maneuvers from all schools. Can learn from martial scripts with a martial lore check. Cannot use the adaptive style feat

>For Item crafting, No bonus to caster level for early crafting.

>Fighter cannot take levels in any other class due to how the delicate interplay between infusions and maneuvers work in the body. If they do, they cannot gain another level in fighter unless they retrain the levels back.


Fighter would be subsumed into the artificer role. As a sort of Quartermaster/blacksmith. They would be the ultimate in physical combat, and potentially extremely devastating in supporting "magical" combat.
Now, fighter maintains the whole "Item guy" appeal, but instead of just buying tons of magical crap, they actually make tons of magical crap.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Here's my take (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!). They get to switch between pools of bonus feats, get quickly-regenerating Superiority Dice style things (only I wrote mine before 5e, grumble grumble) that they can use to boost all sorts of rolls, including skill/ability checks, greater ability to use basic combat maneuvers, and a variety of special abilities fueld by their superiority dice.

[weckar]

Maybe we're just weird, but at our table I find the fighter does not need that much help as most mage players like playing mostly buffers.

If anything, I'd give them DR and later SR equal to to their armor+shield AC bonus and call it a day.

[Mordante]

IMHO fighters just need more skills and more skill points and maybe being able to swap feats. Profession should be available for all classes.

Might also be helpful if feats had fewer prerequisite for fighters.

If the power in a party is out of balance the GM should try to balance it. Give the under powered characters some overpowered items.

[Rhedyn]

link (https://drive.google.com/open?id=11Tczm8Tb3aLHuJ_uD54xZIpSfGTiofbRx3T3gNRNr TE)

I took inspiration from the Aegis in Ultimate Psionics (PF) as martial that was great and tried to mundane-ify the concepts behind it.