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View Full Version : Darkness & Shadow of Moil Mechanics, Guessing Target Location, & Types of Sight



Zazamori
2019-09-12, 11:44 PM
I should learn to be more succinct. I have included all the evidence & thought trains which brought me to my conclusions, but also there's a TL;DR at the end.

Throughout this post I will be using the convention that "Darkness" with the first letter capitalized refers to the level 2 spell titled Darkness. If I use an all lower-case "darkness", I am referring to mundane darkness.



In planning for a character that uses the Devil's Sight+Darkness combo, & then later Shadow of Moil, I've realized there is a lot of disagreement regarding how the mechanics of these work in combat. In the case of Shadow of Moil, that is largely due to the rather confusing wording of the spell itself. In the case of Darkness, that's due to the more general rules regarding lighting, obscurement, & unseen attackers not being fleshed out well enough. This also got me thinking about the proper use of all the special senses.

I understand Darkness creates a heavily obscured area, leaving creatures unable to see each other (barring special senses). If two characters were trying to fight with at least one of them being completely inside the area of darkness, or with an area of darkness between them, they should each get advantage to hit, given that the target can't see to defend itself, & disadvantage to hit, given that they can't see the target. This SHOULD have the net affect of negating all sources of advantage and disadvantage, resulting in normal attacks from both parties.

That all seems straight forward & makes sense if you don't dive too deeply. Strictly following RAW, it results in some odd situations, such as being able to attack normally at 4x the distance using a bow. That obviously can't be the proper way to play that.

A lot of people like to run it as both parties have disadvantage, which I had previously agreed made more sense, but since rereading the Unseen Attackers and Targets section (PHB 194-195), it seems clear to me that a character first has to GUESS where the enemy is located, which is unrelated to attacking & has nothing to do with advantage/disadvantage.


Making an Attack
Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location.

If you can't see a creature, you can't target that creature. You may instead target a location, but the creature you want to hurt may not be in that location.


Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

Think of it as though you can only target a creature with an attack if you can see it. If you can't see it, then you can still attempt to attack it by choosing a direction. This goes beyond the advantage/disadvantage system. This really should've been spelled out more clearly.

This should mean that a character is more likely to hit it's target if there're fewer possible locations for the target to be located.

For example, imagine a character is in the center of a darkness spell is being attacked by an enemy located outside the spell's affect. If the outside enemy knows the creature is inside the darkness, he must choose a location to shoot. There are only so many squares inside the darkness. By contrast, while shooting outward there are a lot more spots from which to choose. This would provide a sort of pseudo-disadvantage, but not technically actual disadvantage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I'm aware, no specific rules exist regarding mechanics on how to deal with attacking an unseen target. If using a grid with miniatures, you can't just let the player choose to have her character 'guess' that her target is in the square where the actual person can see the miniature is located; that's obviously unfair. You also can't violate movement rules by deciding the player guessed wrong & the target slipped to another spot outside of its turn. I think rolling an extra die is the fairest way to handle this, providing a second opportunity to miss. It's not difficult to choose die to approximate different chances of guessing correctly on the fly.

If, say, each square inside the Darkness could be struck by at least one of 6 lines drawn from the outside shooter (corresponding to the 6 square diameter of the Darkness sphere), then roll a d6 along with the actual attack. The attack is only aimed to collide with the target on a result of 6. Alternatively, you could count from left to right across the diameter (from the attacking character's perspective) & say that the shot travels in the direction aimed at the corresponding square, but can also potentially hit if the target is in any square in front or behind the targeted square. In either case, you still have to consider the target's AC, so roll a normal attack anyway.

If instead, the attacker knows the Darkness is centered on & moves with the enemy, then she could approximate the center, narrowing down the number of potential spots. In this case, maybe just call evens or odds & roll any die to give a 50% chance of shooting the correct direction.
Meanwhile, the character inside benefits from a huge defense boost, but takes an even larger penalty to hit chance. The character inside Darkness may be completely disoriented, perhaps only shooting the correct direction if a preliminary d20 direction roll results in a 20, followed by a normal attack roll to hit. I think even that might be too high a hit chance if the target is far away. Maybe rolling a d100, with only a result of 100 succeeding, would be more appropriate. She may be able to use sounds to narrow down the number of directions from which to choose; you could simulate that by making a separate Wisdom (Perception) check or simply adding a perception score to the direction die roll.

Last example: if two characters are both inside Darkness engaged in melee combat, they could be running around each other (or running into each other, lol) constantly during the fight. For this situation, it's not enough to swing in the direction the last attack came from because the enemy may have moved. Roll a d8 for direction, representing the 8 squares surrounding the attacking character's space. Only an 8 results in attacking the correct direction. Then roll a normal attack for hit. You could also bring in perception here. If you go with the method of adding Perception to the direction roll for this one, a perception of +7 guarantees you aim the correct direction, which I think seems reasonable for a character with acute hearing.

If it worked this way, making the attack normally (without disadvantage) makes more sense, because something else is already causing hit chance to suffer. I would say this also makes the interaction of cancelling other sources of advantage/disadvantage reasonable.
I must emphasize I pulled those numbers out of my bum. I maintain that the RAW do clearly imply that the location must be guessed or sensed in a different way, however I can't find any rules governing the mechanics of that, hence, I spit-balled some.

If used in that way, the Darkness spell is useful for protection even to a character that can't see through it (although not so much for helping them hurt baddies). However, this makes it a ridiculous amount more useful to characters that can see through it, perhaps to such a degree that it's completely unfair for a level 2 spell. I feel this is more in-line with a strict interpretation of the rules, but that doesn't exactly mean it's the best idea. Thoughts??




Then there's Shadow of Moil. I'm aware questions have been asked many times before & that JC has declared pseudo-official rulings, but I've yet to find a satisfyingly comprehensive answer. Although JC's statements provide some insight into the thought process behind the conception of SoM, they don't completely un-muddy the water. There's a peculiar irony to the way that a spell about obscurement is so difficult to understand.

The relevant comments by JC on the matter:


Shadow of Moil heavily obscures you, full stop. The spell also dims the light around you. The fact that you're heavily obscured is a result of the flame-like shadows surrounding you, not the result of being in darkness. This means you're heavily obscured even to darkvision (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1084904730789212160).

This makes it clear SoM has two discrete visual effects, only related in so far as they result from the same spell. When affected by SoM:
1) You are heavily obscured to other creatures.
2) The environment around you darkens by one category.
If this happens to make the environment around you into darkness, then this also results in you becoming heavily obscured, so long as those trying to see you lack special vision.


Truesight sees through darkness, including the darkness created by shadow of Moil. In contrast, truesight doesn't penetrate physical concealment, such as what would be created by a dense sandstorm or a blanket. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/943256098869469184)

Here JC gave the correct answer to the wrong question. In light of the first quote, it is clear that seeing through the darkness created by the spell (effect 2 above) is not the same as seeing through the "flame-like shadows" (effect 1). It is unclear if truesight should allow a creature to attack an SoM character without disadvantage. It seems to me JC danced around the actual issue, most likely because he wants to purposefully leave it open to interpretation for now. It's possible that one can infer from this that what he meant to state SoM > Truesight, but I feel that's not an absolute certainty based on his word choice.

A strict interpretation of RAW may also conclude that Truesight's ability to "automatically detect visual illusions" does not do anything against SoM because it is of the necromancy school of magic (which I find slightly odd).
I find it difficult to imagine how a character affected by SoM should appear from the outside. Apparently everyone does. That's the reason there's no intuitive way to decide if SoM should be treated as darkness &/or illusion for the purpose of TS. Shadows are synonymous with darkness, so it's difficult to picture being 'wreathed by flame-like shadows causing you to become heavily obscured' if that's not the same thing as weird wavy bits of darkness resembling the shape of flames blocking vision toward you.
Since the flame-like shadows can "lash out" at an enemy that hits you to deal necrotic damage (rather than psychic), I would say that's a small bit of evidence that they are not an illusion but a physical obscurement (such as heavy fog or dense sandstorm), also in-line with the implication that SoM defeats TS.

I've read it argued that TS should circumvent SoM because level 6 > level 4. I find that to be a reasonable way to handle it, but the logic there is severely flawed for several reasons:
1) TS isn't always from a spell.
2) The level 8 spell Maddening Darkness is essentially just an upgraded Darkness, but it is still seen-through by TS.
3) It makes just as much sense to argue that Control Weather (leavel 8) should counter SoM or that True Seeing should counter Flame Blade (level 2). Just being a higher level spell does not mean it counters the effects of a lower level spell, especially when the effects of one spell have nothing to do with the effects of the other spell, as seems to be the case with SoM vs TS.


At least it's clear from JC's comment that darkvision does not circumvent the heavy obscurement. I see no reason to believe that darkvision shouldn't trump the darkness/dim light portion. Darkvision trumping natural darkness is a case of specific beating general. Darkness spell trumping darkvision is a case of even more specific beating slightly less specific. Since SoM does not explicitly & specifically state that it defeats darkvision, it doesn't, correct?? So darkvision should allow a character to see in the area surrounding the SoM, but not see the character at the center.

According to my own interpretation of an area heavily obscured in darkness, as described above regarding the Darkness spell, a character who can't see in darkness created by SoM shouldn't even be able to see precisely which direction to attack. To hit the enemy hidden in the SoM, she should first have to semi-randomly choose a spot to attack. Such a character might have to roll for direction & then make the attack roll with disadvantage anyway. A character with darkvision won't become disoriented & will be able to see the proper direction to attack, negating the need to attack in a random direction, but the character attacks with disadvantage anyway because "flame-like shadows".


The description of tremorsense states that it allows determination of location, which is not the same as being able to perceive a target well enough to attack properly. A creature with tremorsense should be able to locate a target well enough to attack in the correct direction, but not necessarily to attack without disadvantage due to being unable to see. This should only partly counteracts Darkness & SoM. I assume this should work around walls and such, correct??
This seems correct to me based on the RAW. However, are there any creatures that would be crippled by interpreting tremorsense in this way, rather than saying it's as good as sight?? Is there any other reason why RAI should put tremorsense on-par with sight??


Similarly, blindsight doesn't rely on actual sight using eyes. It's more ambiguous as to how it functions. It also doesn't specify whether it is enough to detect a target's motion as well as actual sight, or if it just determines directionality. Based on using -sight as part of the name for this sense, rather than the more vague -sense, I'm inclined to believe blindsight is meant to be on-par with regular sight for determining location and movements of the target. That should mean it can attack the right spot without disadvantage against a SoM caster.
If blindsight is highly acute echolocation (an example offered by the book), it's reasonable to assume Darkness & SoM should provide no benefits at all to protecting from attacks against an echolocating creature.
What if blindsight is thermoception?? Many real life reptiles have thermoception acute enough to strike prey. As far as I know, there is no official lore backing this up, but I like to imagine that's how it works for dragons. Putting way too much thought into this, heat radiation is just another form of light from a non-visible part of the light spectrum, which one might imagine means Darkness blocks it. However, it's fallacious to try to apply more real life physics to an idea which is innately nonsensical in the context of real physics.
Though blindsight can be many things, it's easier to simply leave it at blindsight doesn't care about Darkness.


Are there any comments from D&D authority figures that clarify tremorsense & blindsight??


Have I overlooked anything?? Are there any holes in my reasoning?? Are there any other unanswered questions about this??



TL;DR:
When trying to attack a target in a heavily obscured area, you must guess the target's location, which should involve an element of chance & probably be more difficult than attacking with disadvantage.

Attacking a creature surrounded by the Darkness spell with:
normal senses = attack a random location without disadvantage or advantage (unless the target can see in Darkness, then you have disadvantage which can be negated by gaining advantage from another source)
darkvision = attack a random location without disadvantage or advantage (unless the target can see in Darkness, then you have disadvantage which can be negated by gaining advantage from another source)
tremorsense = attack correct location without disadvantage or advantage (unless the target can see in Darkness, then you have disadvantage which can be negated by gaining advantage from another source)
truesight = attack correct location with advantage (unless the target can see in Darkness, then you attack normally unless other sources of advantage/disadvantage come into play)
blindsight = attack correct location with advantage (unless the target can see in Darkness, then you attack normally unless other sources of advantage/disadvantage come into play)

Attacking a creature in Shadow of Moil with:
normal senses = attack a random location with disadvantage (can be negated by gaining advantage)
darkvision = attack correct location with disadvantage (can be negated by gaining advantage)
tremorsense = attack correct location with disadvantage (can be negated by gaining advantage)
truesight = attack correct location with disadvantage (can be negated by gaining advantage)
blindsight = attack correct location without disadvantage (other sources of advantage/disadvantage may come into play)

Lindonius
2019-09-13, 01:50 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I'm aware, no specific rules exist regarding mechanics on how to deal with attacking an unseen target.

I think the rules are there but you have to glean them from different sources and mesh them together. As I understand it with regards to unseen targets, you only have to worry about guessing their location if they're unseen AND hidden. Some people vehemently disagree with this as it gimps a lot of vision based spells but basically, even if you are unseen, without being hidden the enemy stills knows exactly where you are (through hearing, smell, footprints whatever) and can target you with disadvantage. So when the phb says:

"When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have
disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether
you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting
a creature you can hear but not see."

I interpret that as meaning the first scenario is when the target is unseen AND hidden, whereas the second scenario is when the target is just unseen.

Jerrykhor
2019-09-13, 03:33 AM
Shadow of Moil is an interesting spell, because it always provide the caster with the 'heavily obscured' effect when other creatures try to perceive it. No ifs, no buts. TS cannot see through it either.

What TS pierces is only the dark aura that turns lighting one step down, (dim light to darkness, bright light to dim light.) This doesn't seem to be magical darkness, however.

A bunch of flame-like shadows means that everyone knows you're there, but they just can't see you. That is why i call SoM as 'John Cena mode'.

Spell level difference should not be the case for any argument, people should know by now. Some level 1 spells can completely counter level 5 spells (i just had that happen at my table, and it was RAW).

Zazamori
2019-09-13, 07:35 PM
I think the rules are there but you have to glean them from different sources and mesh them together. As I understand it with regards to unseen targets, you only have to worry about guessing their location if they're unseen AND hidden. Some people vehemently disagree with this as it gimps a lot of vision based spells but basically, even if you are unseen, without being hidden the enemy stills knows exactly where you are (through hearing, smell, footprints whatever) and can target you with disadvantage. So when the phb says:

"When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have
disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether
you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting
a creature you can hear but not see."

I interpret that as meaning the first scenario is when the target is unseen AND hidden, whereas the second scenario is when the target is just unseen.

I am going to be one of those people that vehemently disagrees.

The immediately preceding paragraph & the first paragraph under the heading Unseen Attackers and Targets on PHB 194 is as follows.


Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.

I didn't include that bit in the OP, but I will edit it in because it's relevant.

Firstly, if the intent was that unseen attacks only apply to creatures after taking the Hide Action, they would have called that section Hidden Attackers.

Notice that "hiding" and "lurking in darkness" are explicitly listed as separate causes of being unseen. I would say that on its own is enough to be sure that RAI mean that any creature heavily obscured in darkness counts as unseen. Seems sufficiently declarative to me. The third list item being invisibility is important too, more on that in a second.

The rules for hiding in combat are as follows.

Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules in chapter 7 for hiding. lf you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.

The aforementioned rules for hiding in Chapter 7 are:

Hiding
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

This also draws a line between being unseen and hiding, the prior being a prerequisite for the latter. This further supports that if they meant for the unseen attackers section to mean hidden attackers, they would have drawn that distinction, because they drew that distinction here.

Moreover, invoking the principle of intuitive understanding gives yet another avenue (perhaps the most obvious way) to understand why sound/smell should never be enough to effectively locate anything for even a creature with approximately human-like sense. Navigating by sound is slow and difficult. Navigating by scent is border-lined impossible if you're tracking a moving object. To illustrate this point, enjoy this anecdote I thunk up while typing this post, & thought was hilarious.

Imagine the real life you, with real life senses of hearing and scent, were told by a stranger that his dog in his house pooped on top of the Roomba. He then set the Roomba on patrol. He wants you to clean it up. For no reason, you have to accomplish this task while blindfolded. You think to yourself, "Only a crazy person would do that!" as you gleefully accept his quest. He provides you a plastic baggie. He shows you a map & photos of his house featuring all the furniture in its current spots to help guide you before placing the blindfold. As a D&D player, you think, "Cool. This'll be just like the Darkness spell." You feel along the walls to slowly navigate while listening through common household noises to find the running Roomba. You hear the television, the A/C, some ticking clocks, people talking, cell phone alerts, PC fans throttling because there's an AMD CPU in there, the dog jingling his collar tags & probably laughing at you, and finally, you think you can barely make out the sound of the Roomba roving in the room down the hall. You clumsily proceed down the hall hoping not to trip over your own feet or anything else. As you go you think to yourself, "Good thing I'm not looking for a smelly, marauding monster in a creepy, dark dungeon. I would have no chance." When you reach the room you smell that you chose correctly, the poo is here...somewhere. You feel around to locate the coffee table to hopefully not bump your shins. Then you listen (& whiff) carefully for the poopy Roomba. After only a short minute you locate the Roomba & get on it's tale. You think "That short minute sure would have been a long minute if this were a perilous situation." You now wonder how to grab that crap off of the vacuum without making a bigger mess. You think, "It's really hard to perform tasks requiring even a minute amount of precision without sight. Imagine how much worse it would be if this were a sword fight." You poke for the pooh multiple times. Even though you can hear & smell the Roomba immediately in front of you, you make contact with the floor several times before actually touching the Roomba, but not the poo. At this point you realize that even if you can touch the poo, there isn't a snowball's chance in heck that you can clean it up off a moving target without your eyes. You think, "This could be even more difficult if the Roomba were aware of me and purposefully trying to elude me and as fast as me. I bet I could practice this for years & still be several times slower than when using my eyes." You give up and decide to leave the Darkness. When you get back to the front door you remember that it's not the Darkness spell, it's a blindfold. You remove the blindfold, give it back to the quest-giver & inform him you can't complete his challenge, partly because it's absurd (Why did he even think of that??), but more so because your senses are inadequate for the task.

Gah, I really didn't need to type all that, what's wrong with me.

With that, I hope the point I'm making is clear, using sound/scent isn't even close to adequate to complete even simple tasks slowly, let alone track a moving fighter quick enough to, ya know, fight back.


Shadow of Moil is an interesting spell, because it always provide the caster with the 'heavily obscured' effect when other creatures try to perceive it. No ifs, no buts. TS cannot see through it either.

What TS pierces is only the dark aura that turns lighting one step down, (dim light to darkness, bright light to dim light.) This doesn't seem to be magical darkness, however.

A bunch of flame-like shadows means that everyone knows you're there, but they just can't see you. That is why i call SoM as 'John Cena mode'.

Spell level difference should not be the case for any argument, people should know by now. Some level 1 spells can completely counter level 5 spells (i just had that happen at my table, and it was RAW).

I agree with all of this as proper interpretation. I still think it's reasonable to houserule that TS should see through John Cena mode. (Thanks for that term by the way. I will be using it.)

Keravath
2019-09-13, 11:14 PM
As far as I know ...

1) Unseen. If you can't see your target then you have disadvantage and if your target can't see you, you have advantage. Just because a target is unseen, it does NOT mean you don't know where the target is located. You might be able to hear it, smell it, notice tracks it leaves in the dust, the way its presence affects the objects around it. In complete darkness, it would usually be hearing. However, RAW, you always know where a creature is located unless it is hidden even if you can't see it.

However, the rules also clearly make it a DM decision in terms of whether these conditions exist and whether an unseen target is perceptible or not. The rules state that a target is hidden if it is unseen and unheard.

"If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

Simply being unseen is insufficient to make a target hidden and even if you are invisible when making an attack you still give away your location even if you can't be seen (unless you have the Skulker feat).


2) Hidden. If a target is hidden then you don't know exacly where it is located. You don't know the location. You are still permitted to make an attack in this case, you choose a location, roll at disadvantage since you still can't see your target, and the DM resolves the attack. If the creature is not in the location you designate as the target of the attack then the attack automatically misses.

If you can't see a target, you still know the 5' square it is located in unless that target takes the hide action so that you lose track of its location.

"An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide."

Clearly an invisible creature can not be automatically hidden since it can try to hide since it can't be seen.

3) Nothing in the general rules indicates that you have to be able to see a target in order to target it. Some spells specifically require a "target you can see". This does not apply to weapon attacks.

4) "This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see."

In the first case, the creature is hidden (because it is both unseen and unheard) and you don't know what location it occupies. In the latter case, the creature is not hidden, you are aware of its location, it can be heard but not seen and you can choose to fire at the unseen target whose location you know with disadvantage on the attack roll.

Zazamori
2019-09-14, 01:02 AM
As far as I know ...

1) Unseen. If you can't see your target then you have disadvantage and if your target can't see you, you have advantage. Just because a target is unseen, it does NOT mean you don't know where the target is located. You might be able to hear it, smell it, notice tracks it leaves in the dust, the way its presence affects the objects around it. In complete darkness, it would usually be hearing. However, RAW, you always know where a creature is located unless it is hidden even if you can't see it.

I'm certain this is all correct except for that last sentence. Do you happen to know where exactly to find that in the books?? I've been looking for something like that to justify the way people normally use Darkness, but I've gotten pretty darn sure it's not in there.


However, the rules also clearly make it a DM decision in terms of whether these conditions exist and whether an unseen target is perceptible or not. The rules state that a target is hidden if it is unseen and unheard.

"If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

Simply being unseen is insufficient to make a target hidden and even if you are invisible when making an attack you still give away your location even if you can't be seen (unless you have the Skulker feat).

2) Hidden. If a target is hidden then you don't know exacly where it is located. You don't know the location. You are still permitted to make an attack in this case, you choose a location, roll at disadvantage since you still can't see your target, and the DM resolves the attack. If the creature is not in the location you designate as the target of the attack then the attack automatically misses.

If you can't see a target, you still know the 5' square it is located in unless that target takes the hide action so that you lose track of its location.



4) "This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see."

In the first case, the creature is hidden (because it is both unseen and unheard) and you don't know what location it occupies. In the latter case, the creature is not hidden, you are aware of its location, it can be heard but not seen and you can choose to fire at the unseen target whose location you know with disadvantage on the attack roll.[

This goes against the intuitive understanding of how invisibility, darkness, fog, & other heavy obscurements should work. This all relies on the assumption that you know the location to within 5' of any creature that hasn't taken the hide action. If you can point me to the page in the book that states that as a rule then I sure will eat my words, but regardless of whether or not it's actually a rule, it makes no sense for it to function this way.

Imagine an invisible archer shoots you from 120' away while standing on a surface that doesn't leave footprints, & then moves from that position in a random direction. You probably noticed the general direction the shot came from, perhaps by angle of impact, if nothing else. By your reasoning, you should know where that archer is to within 5' even though you can't see him, are too far away to hear him, see no tracks, & have no way of predicting which way he would have moved. I would say it's unreasonable to know the exact location the shot came from & even less reasonable to know where the invisible archer ended up after moving. You could say that he's not hidden because you know he is in the general vicinity, but that doesn't mean you can come anywhere close to attacking him back even on the level of disadvantaged.


"An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide."

Clearly an invisible creature can not be automatically hidden since it can try to hide since it can't be seen.

Agreed.


3) Nothing in the general rules indicates that you have to be able to see a target in order to target it. Some spells specifically require a "target you can see". This does not apply to weapon attacks.

It is equally valid to argue that nothing in the rules states that you don't have to be able to see a creature to target it (unless that is in the book, in which case please help me find it).
Imo, it should be common sense that you can't purposefully target a creature you can't see with a precise attack. At some level, the game has to fall back on a basic understanding of how things work in real life. Things in the game are supposed to work as though they do in real life, except where otherwise specified. In fact, "where otherwise specified" refers to literally everything in all the books. So if it's not in a book & can easily be intuitively understood in real life, then that's how it should work in the game. The writers of the books didn't have the time nor the will to give a complete run down of real life in their fantasy game books, so they just assume you reside in reality & know how certain things work. I vaguely recall reading something like that in one of the books, although I can't provide an exact quote on that one. If true, then it kind of does say in the books that you can't purposefully target an unseen enemy, just not in so many words. I've decided I will henceforth refer to this as the Intuition Principle™.

Most spells that require a specific target phrase it as "Choose a creature that you can see within range. The target...". You don't choose a target you can see. You choose a creature you can see, which then becomes a spell target. If you couldn't see it, you couldn't target it (except possibly with AOE, but AOE spells don't use this phrasing). You can't target something with a precision attack if you can't see it. That is not a D&D rule so much as just part of what the word target means, so I would say it should apply equally well to weapon attacks, especially in context of the Intuition Principle™.

BruceLeeroy
2019-09-14, 10:27 AM
This thread is amazing entirely due to your long winded examples. Please, carry on.

Keravath
2019-09-14, 03:22 PM
I'm certain this is all correct except for that last sentence. Do you happen to know where exactly to find that in the books?? I've been looking for something like that to justify the way people normally use Darkness, but I've gotten pretty darn sure it's not in there.



""If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

This sentence in the PHB contains the definition of hidden "both unseen and unheard". Normally, you have to make a hide check to determine if you can hide - essentially make yourself unheard even if you are already unseen. This applies whether you are invisible, behind some obstacle or otherwise heavily obscured from the creature you are trying to hide from.

The fact that you give away your location when attacking from the hidden state actually indicates that if you are not hidden, your position is already known, otherwise the sentence would have said that you give away your position whenever you make an attack (not only when you are hidden).

The gray area for the DM is that the definition of hidden involves both "unseen and unheard". If you are invisible within the area of effect of a silence spell then depending on the DM (and other environmental cues that might give away your position) you could be considered hidden without making an explicit hide check. Similarly, if a character is invisible in a cave with a rapidly flowing river causing a lot of ambient noise the DM could decide that they can not be heard and so could be considered automatically hidden. Again this is a DM judgement, but under normal circumstances, as long as there is the chance that the target could make sufficient noise (resolved by a stealth check to hide) then the targets position is known. Does this apply at 30', 60', 200', 600'? Theoretically yes since RAW doesn't provide any distance limits on hearing. This then is also a DM call in terms of how far away a creature that can not be seen could be reasonably heard. The main reason for the confusion in the stealth and hiding rules is that, RAW, unless a target is hidden, then you know where it is and a lot of the conditions contributing to being hidden require a DM judgement call.

ThePolarBear
2019-09-14, 04:31 PM
I'm certain this is all correct except for that last sentence. Do you happen to know where exactly to find that in the books?? I've been looking for something like that to justify the way people normally use Darkness, but I've gotten pretty darn sure it's not in there.

You might have been mixing two different concepts:

Hiding is not hidden.

Something can be hidden without hiding, however without "exceptional" situations the base case - the general - that doesn't really happen. And mind you: the "exceptional" situations do not need to be that exceptional. Even just contextualizing where the scene takes place is "exceptional" just on the fact of being an exception on the general, absolutely neutral, case. Just like every other part of the rules does not care about anything but the "favourable" situation: the rules about attacks do not care about being unconscious or not, for example.

The rules for hiding are used when, as written, someone tries to hide. When someone does something, actively. However, a person that cannot be heard because in an area of silence and cannot be seen because invisible would still, rulewise, fall under the "definition" of hidden and reap all the benefits even without trying. But in that same "definition" there are some assumptions that might not hold for any particular situation that could manifest during a game. There might be a trail of footprints, clear as day, leading right to where the creature is. That would be enough to use the phrase "you think you know where that creature is". But again, not seeing and not hearing anything is enough to plant that smidge of doubt on most PHB races. Not even gnomes could be sure, but tracking animals and their smell might be sufficient, if the animal is smart enough or trained for magical cloaking, to make them act as if the position was known.

The rules do not care about any of this in particular. The DM is responsible for it.


This goes against the intuitive understanding of how invisibility, darkness, fog, & other heavy obscurements should work.

I wouldn't start with an assumption about a result when trying to follow the steps to reach a result. The rules are made to be simple and fast more then realistic. This can cause some dissonance.


This all relies on the assumption that you know the location to within 5' of any creature that hasn't taken the hide action.

That is not hidden and for the purposes of targeting, assuming the general. Yes.


If you can point me to the page in the book that states that as a rule then I sure will eat my words

"When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll." This is the effect on an attack when you can't see the target, whatever the reason.
"This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see." The disadvantage effect is true in the cases:
1) You are guessing a location
2) You are targeting someone that you can hear even if you can't see them.

The two things are one opposed to the other. It follows that you do not need to see to target something, disregarding the need to guess a location entirely. It follows that if you can hear a target, you know "enough" to target it directly, and not the square - much less need to guess such a square.

Again, assumptions are made. An indicative hearing range calculation/table should be on the DM screen iirc. And as always a DM has the last word because each situation is different. If a DM rules that you can't hear "enough" then it is not enough. But, again, for the purposes of targeting there's no need to guess at all if the target can be heard. But if you can't see the target, may you be guessing the location or not, you need to roll with disadvantage on any attack you make (again, exceptions might factor in).

The fact that it goes against the "understanding" is not really that relevant. The "understanding" comes afterwards: if you need to make a ruling for a specific situation. In general, the above holds true. And that is something that, in my opinion, should also be considered just as much as whatever "understanding" we are carrying. I have no idea in how many fights you have been. I'm not that experienced myself, so i can't really speak for experience for how much a fantasy adventurer would be able to do.

Zazamori
2019-09-14, 04:40 PM
Thanks, Bruce. It's a point of pride when I'm in the right mood.



In further research, I've discovered that always knowing the exact location of an unhidden creature apparently is a relic of 4e (& possibly other games). It's definitely not in 5e RAW.

I've discovered a podcast in which god addresses the matter of stealth/hiding (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/james-haeck-dd-writing) at length, including interactions with invisibility. He begins by stating that stealth/hiding rules are purposefully left up to the DM more than most other things because it involves too many variables to properly formulate comprehensive rules. He can't emphasize enough that there is no wrong way to do it.

His intent is that DM do what makes sense. In other words, he invokes the intuition principle. He seems to describe that being hidden, of course requiring being unseen & unheard, means creatures no longer even "know [you're] here" or "they have no idea where [you] are". I take that to mean creatures no longer know you are even in the general vicinity. He explicitly states, "sometimes even an invisible creature's location is unknown to combatants", & enemies might "lose track of where [an invisible creature is] even though [it] never bothers to hide". Things like sounds, kicking dust, and rustling foliage may give a "clue" to your whereabouts. They may be a dead giveaway, such as if you're loudly shouting while leaving muddy footprints, but that definitely isn't always the case.
He goes on to say, "it's also perfectly in keeping with the rules for a group to assume unless a person hides, people generally know where invisible people are." He strongly emphasizes it's DM fiat, but notice that even when making his first concession against invisibility, he uses the word "generally", not 'exactly'. He states that allowing locations of unseen but unhidden creatures to be known unless hidden is a perfectly acceptable & within the rules way to run it, but based on shift in enthusiasm & lack of narrated examples during that bit, it seems highly implied that he doesn't believe that's the most sensible way to run it, but rather if you were to run it that way it would be more for balance due to invisibility being plenty powerful just in granting advantage on your attacks, disadvantage against enemy attacks, & immunity to "creature you can see" effects.

I would say that it's possible to gather literally all the benefits of being hidden from other sources without technically having taken the hide action. If you're wearing a cloak of invisibility with hood up, boots of elvenkind, are under the effects of Pass Without Trace, and for good measure you're the only person in middle-agey sort of settings to have showered recently, you should be nearly impossible to precisely locate, so long as you don't go full on bull in a china shop. At this point, I believe any reasonable DM would consider such a character to be effectively hidden for narrative purposes, but at the same time, for combat balance purposes, there should still be a (very high difficulty) mechanic to enable finding that person. Either way, the Hide Action still exists because most people won't ever be such a perfect stealth machine.

Zazamori
2019-09-14, 10:23 PM
I'm satisfied in having discovered the (pseudo-)official answer is that it can work however you want it to work. However, I now want to establish my own homebrew mechanics. I can say I'm 100% dissatisfied with the simple answer of everyone knows where everyone else is unless hidden. I also find it too mechanically powerful to go with what I consider to be the most realistic option of nearly random attacks.

I think a decent compromise would be to use a passive stealth check. Although the only passive ability check called out in the books is Wisdom (Perception), the PHB does allow any skill to be used passively, it just doesn't offer specific examples for their use. Passive Intelligence (Investigation) is explicitly mentioned in the Observant feat, but there are literally no rules anywhere on how to use it. It's basically just there as a reminder that creative players/DM should be contributing to designing the rules of their own games because homebrewing is recommended by the RAW & (to some of us) is part of the fun.

I feel it should be passive stealth vs active perception because it shouldn't reasonably require additional action on part of the Darkness caster (or invisible creature) to be difficult to pinpoint. The detection should be the active portion (via Search Action) on the part of the searcher.
In normal circumstances, perception is a lot more passive than stealth. You can still take the Search Action (active perception check) to attempt to exceed your passive perception to notice things that are not "hidden", but not also not super conspicuous. If the circumstances were conducive to it, such as when a character is unseen but not hidden, that asymmetric relationship should flip. Stealth becomes the passive default & perception should require dedicated activity; the stealthy character can still take a Hide Action in attempt to exceed her passive stealth. A contest between stealth & perception can be maintained, just with stealth getting a head start instead of perception.

The PHB suggests passive skills of 10 + normal skill mod + 5 for advantage - 5 for disadvantage. That passive stealth skill can set a DC for the Search Action, just as passive perception normally sets a base DC for a Hide Action.

Once detected via Search Action, I would say the searching character should 'get a feel for' what she's listening for & perhaps patterns in the unseen creatures movements. After succeeding that check, the position should be known persistently thereafter. I would say that a failure of the Search should at least allow persistent knowledge of direction (but not exact position) unless failed by 5 or more.
As always, a creature can substitute its passive perception score if it rolls less than 10 for its active perception check, but I strongly feel that a passive perception alone should not be enough without taking the Search Action at least once. This bit guarantees that a highly perceptive creature will detect a not very stealthy opponent in only one turn, but something like Darkness or invisibility should definitely be off-putting enough to consume at least one action for the creature to adjust no matter how anime her perception skill may be.

Failing to identify an unseen creature's position precisely (or at all) would mean you can still take a less educated guess at position using a preliminary direction roll as I suggested in the OP or the Search Action can be repeated.

Once discovered, the unseen character may be able to take the Hide Action to throw off the track again, but the DC for the stealth check would be set by whatever perception the searcher rolled to find her, or she can take the Hide Action in hopes to up the DC even if she hasn't been found yet. If the Hide Action was taken, attacking (hit or miss) will still end the hiding (as it normally does) & return the DC to the passive score as long as she is still in Darkness; if the passive (but not active) stealth score had already been beaten by the Search Action, then the character's location (or at least direction) is once again persistently known until the hider succeeds on a Hide Action again.
If the Darkness caster took the Hide Action & then left the area of Darkness while still hiding, she must use the rolled value rather than the passive score as the DC for any creature outside of the Darkness to find her (as is the case with a normal Hide Action) even if the rolled value was less than the passive score. If searchers follow her out of the Darkness, their passive perception score returns to being persistently online without need of a Search Action, but the value of any rolled perception checks made while inside the Darkness may be kept. Once out of the Darkness, being seen obviously means auto-unhide, as it always does.

An example:
Paladin has perception skill of 6. Warlock has stealth of 7. Warlock casts Darkness, has passive stealth of 17. Paladin takes Search Action, rolls 4(+6 from skill mod), has passive perception of 16, score is high enough to perceive direction but not exact location. Warlock takes Hide Action, rolls 7(+7 from skill mod), exits area of Darkness, detection DC drops from passive score (17) to rolled value (14), finds heavily obscured area outside to hide in. Paladin takes another Search Action, rolls 16(+6 from skill mod), exits Darkness in pursuit, maintains rolled Perception value (22). Everything now functioning as if Darkness were never involved. Paladin easily tracks Warlock to hiding spot (22 > 14). Warlock probably should've just fought in Darkness.



I find this system to be close enough to plausible, but does it temper the overpoweredness enough?? I definitely like this a lot better than everyone always knows where everyone is.

At this point should I be migrating to a new thread in the Homebrew forums??

Skylivedk
2019-09-15, 04:33 PM
Yup, it's probably homebrew by then. I never really figured out that boundary. Just out of curiosity, how do you rule wolves and dogs? They make little to no sense in the current setup

Aimeryan
2019-09-16, 07:37 AM
It may be worth pointing out that, as written (RAW), there are only rules for hiding via the Hide action - however, this does not mean that it is against RAW to rule something as hidden otherwise (it is just not RAW).

The perception and location rules are very sparse in 5e. There is nothing about distance or distracting environments, nor does it go into any real detail regarding the different senses. The books will refer to 'checks that rely on [sense]'; so we know there is support for such things, but there are no rules specifically on them. The DMG, page 238, says this about Difficulty Class (DC):


It's your job to establish the Difficulty Class for an ability check or a saving throw when a rule or an adventure doesn't give you one.
...
When you do so, think of how difficult a task is and then pick the associated DC...

It is established that the books do not cover rules for everything (they are not encyclopaedias); it is the DM's job to rule on what is appropriate when this happens. If it makes sense for something to be hidden in a situation not covered by the books, then the DM can rule that way - this is a DM Ruling.

Looking at perception specifically, are you aware of the location of a specific individual half-way around the world? Well, there is nothing written specifically about distance, so the DM is required to make such a ruling when the situation arises. I have yet to meet a DM that rules that you would know such a location; a creature's scent signature would have dropped off to a non-perceptible level at such a distance, hearing the sounds the creature is making would be below the hearing range at such a distance, and sight of the creature would be blocked (but if that wasn't the case, optical resolution of the creature would have become too poor to be perceptible at such a distance).

The relevance of this is to point out just one of the many situations that everyone is making DM Rulings for; don't worry about doing so as well. If the case is 'a creature located somewhere within an area of magical darkness while noisy combat is taking place against creatures who don't have particularly good sense of smell', then you may very well rule that the DC for a Perception check would not be insignificant (in which case you could skip it) and should therefore be assigned by the DM.

~~~

As a note on passive/non-passive checks; passive checks refer to continuous checks that are being done all the time at no cost - if they are good enough to beat a DC then they do so without any action being required. A non-passive check usually requires an action to accomplish, however, the benefit is that may roll high enough to beat their passive check. In particular to perception, the DM can assign the DC to be very difficult even for something that is nearby and in line of sight, if the conditions are right - consider the following:



You walk into a shop; right in front of you is a counter, and behind the counter is a woman.

What should the DC check be for seeing the counter? What should the DC check be for seeing the woman? In usual circumstances the DC would be so low as to only be an issue if the character's Perception check is severely impaired. The passive Perception will almost certainly cover it; I doubt any DM would bother thinking about it at all - however, it should be noted that technically a Perception check occurred and was beaten by the passive Perception of the character.




On top of one of the cupboard in the shop a spider sits.

What should the DC check be for seeing the spider? Well, if the spider is small and not scampering about quickly it may not be noticed even if moving in the line of sight of the creature. It may not be attempting to use the Hide action, however, nevertheless it remains unperceived. The DC check may be too high for the character's passive Perception - however, if they for some reason decide to do an non-passive check they may roll high enough to notice the spider (should the DM care to declare it as relevant!).

Zazamori
2019-09-16, 03:06 PM
Yup, it's probably homebrew by then. I never really figured out that boundary. Just out of curiosity, how do you rule wolves and dogs? They make little to no sense in the current setup

Blind dogs > all other beasts. Again, this falls back on the intuitive understanding that in real life, doggos > all other beasts.


It may be worth pointing out that, as written (RAW), there are only rules for hiding via the Hide action - however, this does not mean that it is against RAW to rule something as hidden otherwise (it is just not RAW).

Indeed, in the Sage Advise podcast previously linked, JC described that a DM could decide you're effectively hidden in the right circumstances, even without a hide action. I'm leaning towards it makes sense for anyone that can't be heard or seen (including environmental interactions) should be automatically considered "hidden" without having taken a hide action. Yet at the same time, I'm feeling ever more like "hidden" is a nebulous concept that could be attempted via various different means, involving different levels of effort, & with varying degrees of success. I feel it shouldn't be considered as a sort of status so much as it should just be considered in terms of what makes sense in the scenario, possibly balanced by assuming every character has a twinge of blind-martial-artist-anime-character level of nonvisual perception when needed.


The perception and location rules are very sparse in 5e. There is nothing about distance or distracting environments, nor does it go into any real detail regarding the different senses. The books will refer to 'checks that rely on [sense]'; so we know there is support for such things, but there are no rules specifically on them. The DMG, page 238, says this about Difficulty Class (DC):



It is established that the books do not cover rules for everything (they are not encyclopaedias); it is the DM's job to rule on what is appropriate when this happens. If it makes sense for something to be hidden in a situation not covered by the books, then the DM can rule that way - this is a DM Ruling.

Indeed, my initial confusion resulted from being told many times that there were very distinct rules on the matter when actually there aren't. I am now well aware of that & more interested in constructing a framework of how I think it should reasonably be handled.


Looking at perception specifically, are you aware of the location of a specific individual half-way around the world? Well, there is nothing written specifically about distance, so the DM is required to make such a ruling when the situation arises. I have yet to meet a DM that rules that you would know such a location; a creature's scent signature would have dropped off to a non-perceptible level at such a distance, hearing the sounds the creature is making would be below the hearing range at such a distance, and sight of the creature would be blocked (but if that wasn't the case, optical resolution of the creature would have become too poor to be perceptible at such a distance).

Indeed here also.

I vaguely recall reading actual distances for vision limits, which were surprisingly close to what applies to human eyes on earth. I think it was 2 or 3 miles on flat ground with no obstructions, but when would that ever actually happen?? The horizon distance on 'flat' ground on earth is somewhere in this range, slightly under 3 miles. It also mentioned a distance that could be scene looking out from a tall mountain top across a valley below as 40 miles, I think. On real earth, that obviously varies a lot with the height of the peak, but I've heard similar figures that would suggest it's a reasonable number. It's difficult to see a scenario in-game where those figures actually matter & are considered, I just thought it made for a fun fact that the numbers given by the game are approximately applicable to earth.


The relevance of this is to point out just one of the many situations that everyone is making DM Rulings for; don't worry about doing so as well. If the case is 'a creature located somewhere within an area of magical darkness while noisy combat is taking place against creatures who don't have particularly good sense of smell', then you may very well rule that the DC for a Perception check would not be insignificant (in which case you could skip it) and should therefore be assigned by the DM.

~~~

As a note on passive/non-passive checks; passive checks refer to continuous checks that are being done all the time at no cost - if they are good enough to beat a DC then they do so without any action being required. A non-passive check usually requires an action to accomplish, however, the benefit is that may roll high enough to beat their passive check. In particular to perception, the DM can assign the DC to be very difficult even for something that is nearby and in line of sight, if the conditions are right - consider the following:



You walk into a shop; right in front of you is a counter, and behind the counter is a woman.

What should the DC check be for seeing the counter? What should the DC check be for seeing the woman? In usual circumstances the DC would be so low as to only be an issue if the character's Perception check is severely impaired. The passive Perception will almost certainly cover it; I doubt any DM would bother thinking about it at all - however, it should be noted that technically a Perception check occurred and was beaten by the passive Perception of the character.




On top of one of the cupboard in the shop a spider sits.

What should the DC check be for seeing the spider? Well, if the spider is small and not scampering about quickly it may not be noticed even if moving in the line of sight of the creature. It may not be attempting to use the Hide action, however, nevertheless it remains unperceived. The DC check may be too high for the character's passive Perception - however, if they for some reason decide to do an non-passive check they may roll high enough to notice the spider (should the DM care to declare it as relevant!).




Rather well thought out response, thank you.

I would say that the majority of us humans blessed with the gift of sight rely on it for well over 90% of the perceiving that we do. I don't know how exactly to quantify general perception, which is why I chose what I believe to be a conservative estimate, but still, 90% means almost all of it. Translating that into the game, I would say that could be akin to your passive perception dropping to zero momentarily, or at least dropping by a large amount, certainly no less than -10 (to nullify the standard +10 applied to convert your flat skill mod to a passive score). When sight is lacking, you will adjust to rely more heavily on other senses, in real life, that probably means more attention to sound & touch. I would say you should have to focus for a few seconds (Search Action) on sounds (&/or feelings/scents) around you that you were previously not paying much attention to if you want to regain your bearings. So you can bounce back from being suddenly blinded, to some extent, but to continue fighting without missing a beat seems improbable unless neither combatant is willing to move very far for the rest of the battle.

On the flipside, passive stealth, if it can be assumed such a thing were also always on, is the thing normally has a -10 (or greater penalty) because conditions aren't super conducive to it most of the time. I seem to step rather lightly. Though I rarely try to actually sneak, I sometimes surprise someone that didn't know I had entered the room, passive stealth, just like your example spider. That doesn't happen all the time, because if I happen to touch a creaky floor-board, cast a shadow just wrong, or smell like butt, then I'll be noticed. So under, normal circumstances, passive stealth is the one with no bonus & perception will prevail (almost) every time. In darkness or if invisible, the script flips. Perception takes the -10 (or greater), passive stealth becomes the full 10 + skill mod. I rather like this idea.