Swift Hunter Build

[wunderstruck]

Hi there. I'm just returning from over a decade hiatus from DnD 3.5 to a recent game hosted by a friend. He is allowing any non-3rd Party source material, as well as Dragon Magazine, but only PHB Races.

Currently, I'm playing a Swordsage 2/Rogue 3 Halfling and eventually going into Invisible Blade, however, despite my love for playing Skill Monkeys, I'm finding my participation in combat underwhelming. I realize I am a low level and things will improve, however, I'm just not finding myself fond of Halfling despite the racial advantages.

I have created an alternate character that I think I will enjoy. I was told for YEARS that Archers sucked in 3.5 and unfortunately, I believed it. However, upon creating a Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter build, I'm tempted to disagree, especially with Travel and Knowledge Devotion added in.

My question is this:

This build seems like it has the potential to be a ridiculous glass cannon (although easily counterable, Wind Wall anyone?)

What is the best way to attempt this character without making everyone else at the table feel like their contributions don't matter? What is the best way to do it without making the DM hate my guts via annihilating common threats?

And most importantly, what is the best way to request a switch to this character after playing four sessions building story and connections with the other party members with my Halfling Rogue in a way that won't cause a massive disconnect, and could also potentially lead to good story?

[pabelfly]

You could turn your current character into an archer pretty easily - rogues and archery go together pretty well. Not sure what your current feat list is but you could ask to rework your feats to suit.

[wunderstruck]

You could turn your current character into an archer pretty easily - rogues and archery go together pretty well. Not sure what your current feat list is but you could ask to rework your feats to suit.

Currently I have Improved Initiative and Shadow Blade. My issue with Halfling is reduced weapon damage and speed, but yes, I could go Archer with this build, potentially. I just prefer to start fresh with a pure concept rather than muddy the waters.

[liquidformat]

honestly melee rogues can be pretty powerful though it seems you took classes out of order. Typically going halfling rogue 3/swashbuckler 15/swordsage 2 with two weapon fighting, craven, daring outlaw, shadow blade, underfoot combat, confound the big people, and the last feat I often use for a improved two weapon fighting or darkstalker. Taking the sword sage levels around 9-11 allows for a great selection of maneuvers and stances, taking shield of blades ACF and arcane stunt if DM will let me on the swashbuckler side and Penetrating Strike ACF on the rogue side. If you are allowed to take flaws take as many as you can and stack in some more feats heck even having reduce person perm'ed on you is potentially worth while after you have confound the big people. The fact is with a rogue, your weapon damage is more or less moot, you should be looking for any and all ways to increase the number of attacks you can make and how often your SA activates.

I would suggest avoiding invisible blade especially if the dm is going to enforce the horrid errata that ruined it. Taking off your armor is normally the opposite of what you want to do, also that prc has a lot of feat requirements that aren't exactly useful for you. With that said you could also look at doing a throwing build in which case invisible blade is a better choice, though take a look at, whisperknife, master thrower, and bloodstorm blade too as they are all quite nice for a thrower build.

You are going to have similar issues with a swift hunter unless you are hardcore abusing travel devotion with nightsticks. The issue with going swift hunter is really that you are stuck with either building around abusing nightsticks, using shot on the run and sucking, or going melee with a pouncing barb dip with spring attack and just focusing on charging. In many ways you are actually very easy for the DM to shutdown and to trivialize your schtick since it is based around movement the DM just has to setup the battle field correctly and you are useless.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. your question, you can ask directly or just evolve your character into what you want.

If you are concerned about SA immune creatures, you could ask to retrain to pick up the L3 Lightbringer Rogue ACF so sneak attack/2 always applies.

If you want to trade out your feats, then pay for a casting of Psychic Reformation. Arguably, this works for the Lightbringer Rogue ACF as well.

If you are looking for full BAB, then Sneak Attack Thug Fighter variant works well.

If you are looking for a cleric dip, then Cloistered Cleric for Travel/Knowledge devotion and the Elf domain could be great. Potentially, you could get PBS and Precise shot (the default archer feat tax) at your next level along with significantly improved mobility and to-hit/damage.

If you want to change your race, maybe consider paying for a casting of Cocoon (Spell Compendium)? Overall though, the minor reduction in damage from being a Halfling matters relatively little. Knowledge Devotion or Craven would more than make up for it.

[Silvercrys]

Well, you don't "need" Travel Devotion on an archer scout if you spend feats on Greater Manyshot. It's mostly useful for being able to double move on very large maps at that point, the main reason to dip Cleric is that Knowledge Devotion offsets the huge penalties from Greater Manyshot. The rest is just gravy (wand use, etc.) Travel Devotion is mostly useful for melee Swift Hunter because you can't charge everything all the time.

I wouldn't dip Cleric at level 1 though, especially if you're starting at lower levels. Scout 4/Cleric 1/Ranger 15 keeps a +18 base attack bonus and gives you access to your main source of damage (skirmish) from level 1 plus the big skill point boost from starting your career as a scout. My favorite Swift Hunter is just Scout 3/Ranger 17, though. Take Knowledge Devotion with a normal feat, run up the Greater Manyshot line, use Favored Enemy to apply skirmish damage to constructs and undead, ???, profit.

-------------

As far as whether the build needs nerfed... it's good, yeah. It's an optimized archery build with a great attack bonus, a good schtick, very mobile and puts out lots of attacks and damage... but it isn't broken by any means. Whether you need to adjust it or not depends pretty heavily on what your other party members are playing; if you have a bunch of first timers playing core book only classes and feats and the other melee characters aren't using power attack and stuff and there's a Bard pretending to be a frontline swashbuckling fighter or something, then you'll probably put out more damage than they do, yeah.

But it won't be much more than your standard great sword + 1.5*Str mod per attack until around level 11 or so because you're super extra MAD. If you manage to get Greater Manyshot at level 6 (which you can't, you don't even meet the BAB requirement for Manyshot or Greater Manyshot until level 8 or so) your damage per attack is 1d8+2d6+1~3 (+Str mod if you have one and a composite bow) depending on Knowledge Devotion, where the Greatsword deals 2d6+1.5*Str mod+Power Attack.

The reason you've been told archers suck is because, well, they basically do suck. You have to optimize them pretty hard just to get the same damage as a melee Barbarian or Fighter with a Greatsword and Power Attack.

[RNightstalker]

Travel Devotion is only really necessary if you're doing a melee build.

Make sure to use FEs on things immune to crits as Swift Hunter lets you apply skirmish damage to FEs.

Definitely take Scout at 1st level for the skill points.

As far as working the story, it would help to know where y'alls story currently is at.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, you don't "need" Travel Devotion on an archer scout if you spend feats on Greater Manyshot.
You kinda do. Travel Devotion can work at level 1, and carries no external penalties; a single-classed Scout can't get Greater Manyshot until 12th, at which point it's still only three shots at a huge penalty.

I've got a pretty complete Scout handbook here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473666-New-Scout-Handbook), if you want to check out my ramblings on various methods of achieving Skirmish.

[RNightstalker]

You kinda do. Travel Devotion can work at level 1, and carries no external penalties;

Travel devotion is useless until you gain a second iterative attack or go TWF.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Travel devotion is useless until you gain a second iterative attack or go TWF.
Or take Rapid Shot.

[Silvercrys]

You can't always charge, Travel Devotion is generally better because you need to move 20 ft to trigger Improved Skirmish and you can tumble around them in a circle to activate it that way.

And yes, you can move and Rapid Shot with Travel Devotion so it comes online sooner if you start in Scout... but let's talk about Swift Hunter builds, hmm?

-------------

For Greater Manyshot Swift Hunter builds, you can get online before level 12, you just have to multiclass more or start Ranger.

If you start Ranger 6 into Scout 4, you can take Greater Manyshot at 6 (as long as your DM allows you to use Combat Style as prereqs for other feats, anyway). You lose a few skill points from starting Ranger instead of Scout but you can take PBS at 1 and Knowledge Devotion at 3, so at 7 when you dip Scout 1 you get immediate access to Greater Manyshot + 1d6 Skirmish + Knowledge Devotion and you get a spike in damage when you take Swift Hunter. You don't get Precise Shot from Scout 4 until level 10 though, unless you can take flaws.

You can start Scout and do Scout 3/Ranger 1/Scout +1/Ranger +1/Fighter 2 to get Swift Hunter as a Scout feat at level 5 and then use Fighter feats to take Manyshot at 7 and Greater Manyshot at 8. Main downside here is multiclass XP penalties if your group uses those, and it loses +1 Skirmish AC and bumps your damage boosts back two levels, and it's 1 level slower than Ranger 6 at getting Greater Manyshot. The XP penalties only apply for 1 level if you have Favored Class (Any) or Favored Class (Ranger), though, for what it's worth.

Ranger 16 is a pretty bad level all told, though. Best off taking Scout 3/Ranger 17 (particularly if starting Ranger 6) or Scout 4/Ranger 15/Fighter 1, capping the build with Fighter 1 at level 20. There's probably an argument for Scout 5/Ranger 15, but I wouldn't bother taking Scout 5 at level 20, seems pretty pointless to get regular evasion at that level.