[DM Help] Looking for flightless dragons to use in Starfinder

[Arkhios]

See topic. I'm running a post-apocalyptic science fantasy, using starfinder (I find it works well).

I'm trying to introduce dragons into the setting, but I would prefer if they didn't have wings or other form of flight.

I know how I can convert creatures from Pathfinder to Starfinder, but I'm at a loss how would removing flight and at least two natural attacks affect the CR of a dragon, if at all.

Likewise, I know there are some dragons in Starfinder rules, but the same problem applies there.

How much would it affect a Pathfinder or Starfinder true dragon's CR if you took away their wings AND flight?

[TheCount]

pathfinder/starfinder only? or 3/3.5 is also good?

Edit #1: isnt there a chart/list with all the monsters? choose dragon thengo through them one-by-one?

Maybe tweak the flying ones? like desert living ones a burrow speed instead of a fly? climb in montains? exrla speed in plains? swim in water? then, combine half of the two for places that has them?
Like cliffside living dragons: X swim and Y climb speed?

forest could be extra land speed and climb, marsh....eh, like cliff i guess? maybe lower speed but extra stealth?

[Telok]

It does not affect CR.

SF is built on far different assumptions from the fake medieval D&D, some of those being:
Everyone has a gun.
Cannot full attack while flying.
Jet packs as low level armor add-ons.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The 3.5 Draconomicon has a huge selection of drakes and landwyrms which should be exactly what you’re looking for.

[Arkhios]

I would prefer to stay away from 3.5 sources, because, regardless of what their intent was, Pathfinder is not very well compatible with 3.5 after all, and Starfinder has been designed using Pathfinder as the ground level. Starfinder has actual rules to convert Pathfinder creatures to Starfinder, but if I tried to convert 3.5 creatures to Starfinder, I'd have to first convert them to Pathfinder and then to Starfinder, and that's something I'd like to avoid, to be entirely honest.

Unless, of course, someone would be so kind and do the conversion from 3.5 to Pathfinder, in which case I could do the conversion to Starfinder myself! :smallbiggrin:

In any case, I'd like to keep things balanced, and avoid unforeseen pitfalls as much as possible.

[Elves]

Giant space dragons.

[Arkhios]

Giant space dragons.

...and that helps me how? :smallannoyed:

[Psyren]

If all you wanted was "wingless" that would be easy (Linnorms) but wingless and flightless usually isn't a dragon at all. You might be better off with Wurms of some kind, and then slap something on to give it a breath weapon and/or casting.

[Arkhios]

If all you wanted was "wingless" that would be easy (Linnorms) but wingless and flightless usually isn't a dragon at all. You might be better off with Wurms of some kind, and then slap something on to give it a breath weapon and/or casting.

Yeah, I know that Linnorms are wingless, but even they can fly (through magical means). Wurms would be fine, if they have legs (four, six, or more, just the same), but I think these particular creatures (I suppose they don't have to be actual dragons, just similar enough to be called "dragons" by the world's people in general) wouldn't have spellcasting, except maybe some Psychic magic. Breath weapon would have to be a thing, though. Obviously(?)

Unlike normal(?), my game is set quite firmly on ground (for now); space travel isn't a thing (yet), so encountering "giant space dragons" isn't what I'm looking for. Although, I know there are rules in Starfinder for enormous dragons that fight only in Starship combat scale (and that's big!)

[Elves]

...and that helps me how? :smallannoyed:

Instead of linnorms or whatever you could have huge galactic dragons. They could either be totally magical or they could be weird vacuum adapted lifeforms (though possibly not made of biological material). They wouldn't have to have wings.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I know that Linnorms are wingless, but even they can fly (through magical means).

Yeah, I said that, while ruling them out :smallconfused:



Wurms would be fine, if they have legs (four, six, or more, just the same), but I think these particular creatures (I suppose they don't have to be actual dragons, just similar enough to be called "dragons" by the world's people in general) wouldn't have spellcasting, except maybe some Psychic magic. Breath weapon would have to be a thing, though. Obviously(?)

Your best bet is probably a wurm with some cosmetic legs and a breath weapon then. Make them half-dragons maybe?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding converting 3.5 monsters, after reading over this guideline it looks like the landwyrms should be rather simple:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/sowhereaminow-s-lab/creature-conversion-guide/

They only have racial HD, only one special attack that should translate easily, maybe the natural attacks will need adjusting, and you’ll be repicking feats for Starfinder versions anyway.

[Psyren]

Other option - you can convert something "dragony" that can't fly but has legs and a breath weapon, like a Behir, even making versions for each element if necessary. If you want to power them up, just add HD/size.

[Telok]

Building a monster or npc in SF is rather different than in PF in you're going to use the actual SF rules. The process is laid out in all the SF monster books and isn't complicated, although there are a few potential traps.

1. Pick a cr
2. Pick the npc fighter, skill monkey, or caster table
3. That cr on that table is your stat line
4. Pick the skills it's good at
5. Pick spells, if any
6. Add any templates
7. If you want give it a weapon or armor pick one that's appropriate for the party level. You can use the weapon stats instead of the statline damage but don't add the armor bonus, the armor is just for loot, looks, and armor upgrades. If the critter has natural attacks it uses the statline damage.

That's the SF npc/monster rules. What the critter actually is as a creature is, rules-wise, less important than the cr appropriate stat block.

[Arkhios]

Yeah, I said that, while ruling them out :smallconfused:
Yeah, you did. I suppose I just wanted to make it clear that I, too, know what Linnorms are. For the sake of proving something for no reason. Honestly, I don't know why I said that.



Your best bet is probably a wurm with some cosmetic legs and a breath weapon then. Make them half-dragons maybe?
I've tried to run this setting with several systems, and I actually used half-dragon succesfully, so I've kind of established that those do exist, at the very least, but only amongst lizard-like and bird-like animals.


Other option - you can convert something "dragony" that can't fly but has legs and a breath weapon, like a Behir, even making versions for each element if necessary. If you want to power them up, just add HD/size.

Oh, nice! I'd forgotten behir completely! That could work! Thanks.