PC Disrespected God. Did I Punish Him Too Severely?

[A_Gray_Phantom]

Just wrapped up a game involving a fight with a phase spider, a lesser amulet of the planes, and the well of many worlds, and WHOO BOY did it get CRAZY!

So the party was fighting a phase spider, and thought it'd be a great idea to use their lesser amulet of the planes to travel to the ethereal plane and force it out of hiding. Well, one failed intelligence check later, and they were in the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium. They narrowly avoided death via 2 grey slaads by leaping into their well of many worlds, ending up in Carceri.

Here's where I bent the rules a little bit, and allowed each player on their turn to place the portal down so they could each have a chance of getting back to the fight.

When Troy, cleric of Pelor, put it down, and I rolled to see where they ended up... and I kid you not, I rolled for Elysium, home of Pelor. Even though it shouldn't have worked, I figured since it was his god, and he was diving into the portal first, that he managed to open a portal straight to Pelor's throne room. Of course, Pelor was also being visited by one of the avatars of Wee Jas, goddess of death, vanity, and magic.

A bit of banter ensued, with the cleric pleading to Pelor to send them back to help their friends.

"Could you please help us!?" Troy asked.
"Yes, I can." Said Pelor. "You can pray to me each morning for spells, and I can give you those spells."
"He does that... religiously." Said the party's sorceress.
"Pelor! The phase spider bit me! I might die to the poison!" Troy begged.
"Well, your (dead) parents are here. They've missed you." Reasoned Pelor.

HERE'S WHERE THE CRUD GOES DOWN

Pelor considered whether or not such direct intervention would result in other (evil) gods performing their own direct interventions. At this point the party's neraph chaos-crusader then mocked Wee Jas, "Sorry. We didn't mean to interrupt your conjugal visit!" (Or something like that.)

Wee Jas viewed this as disrespect to her and her friend. Now whenever he hears the name "Wee Jas" he poops himself. (It was the only thing I could think of at the moment :smallfrown:) Pelor, disgusted and annoyed, sent them back to the material plane to finish the fight against the phase spider.



The thing I'm feeling a little bad about is... did I go too far? Mind you, this is the guy who once stuck a portable hole into a bag of holding to "let everyone have some fun." This is the guy who tried to negotiate terms with 100 kobolds and a red dragon, all of whom had readied actions to attack him. This is the guy who suggested burning down a library/museum to a lillend. This is the guy who's so chaotic, he reincarnated from a human into a neraph.

This is a game, and games are supposed to be fun, but actions should naturally have consequences. I'd happily have the PC's curse removed if he simply said "I'm sorry," but I suspect he won't do that.

The other alternative is that he could appeal to Chaos itself. Shivering Jemmy (straight from The Sandman Chronicles) is something akin to a deity to him, who (in my campaign setting) is more powerful than the gods. She's the reason why he's a neraph now. She could easily overturn the curse, but the entire party already owe her favors.

I know I should have handled the situation with a bit more class, but it was the only thing I could think of at the time.

Did I go too far? Is there a more satisfying way I should go about lifting this curse from him? I don't feel like the DM should ever actually punish players for any reason, but I can't imagine a world where disrespecting a goddess would ever work out well for anyone.

[jdizzlean]

pc's usually have big heads, that's why they're adventurer's in the first place. that "curse" sounds a little funny actually, and were it me, i'd incorporate it to further mess w/ wee jas, like say going and sitting in one of her churches during a service, you could only imagine that curse backfiring on them...

that said, a simple remove curse spell or scroll or the like will get rid of it, unless you did something silly like make it permanent...


now, that said, you had pelor NOT intervene, but you also let wee jas actually intervene in some way (while in Pelor's realm no less). you can't have it both ways if you want to be fair.


all that doesn't matter if your players aren't mad about it however.

[DeTess]

Yeah, I'd make a remove curse fix this as well. The gods got to make a point about puny uppity mortals, without hurting the character directly for too long. I would make this have some longer term diplomatic ramifications for the player though. If they later seeks help from clergy belonging to wee jas or pelor, they might find themselves turned away, for example.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

pc's usually have big heads, that's why they're adventurer's in the first place. that "curse" sounds a little funny actually, and were it me, i'd incorporate it to further mess w/ wee jas, like say going and sitting in one of her churches during a service, you could only imagine that curse backfiring on them...

that said, a simple remove curse spell or scroll or the like will get rid of it, unless you did something silly like make it permanent...


now, that said, you had pelor NOT intervene, but you also let wee jas actually intervene in some way (while in Pelor's realm no less). you can't have it both ways if you want to be fair.


all that doesn't matter if your players aren't mad about it however.

Wee Jas doesn't have any temples or churches. She has libraries, post offices, funeral homes, city hall offices, etc. He was going to collect all the poo in some bags and chuck it at these buildings, but then he started pooping himself more, to the point where it's actually causing him some serious health problems. (Severe dehydration, and also some bleeding.)


Yeah, I'd make a remove curse fix this as well. The gods got to make a point about puny uppity mortals, without hurting the character directly for too long. I would make this have some longer term diplomatic ramifications for the player though. If they later seeks help from clergy belonging to wee jas or pelor, they might find themselves turned away, for example.

Sounds like you two don't think I punished him too severely, but that I should allow a simple remove curse spell to relieve his malady. Seems simple enough. Thanks :smile:

[Vizzerdrix]

I hope the player "runs" with it. Panji pots everywhere, and tainted weapons all around! :smallbiggrin:

[jdizzlean]

Wee Jas doesn't have any temples or churches.


if she's a god in D&D terms, there's a church/temple/cult somewhere....

[False God]

I tend to avoid "bodily function" punishments in games, but other than that, he's fairly lucky that's all he got for insulting two gods.

And no, I wouldn't let Remove Curse get rid of it either. A 3rd/4th level spell to remove the effect of a god? Kinda makes me think you could mouth off to the gods a lot. I WOULD however, allow its removal via a Atonement and a quest.

Your player doesn't really sound like the atonement type, and I'm gonna bet he probably wouldn't take too kindly to having to having to do a quest with essentially no rewards, that would require him to expend a lot of his time and energy doing something to benefit Wee Jas and Pelor (or their followers). Which is exactly why that's what his quest would be.

[Silvercrys]

Atonement is generally reserved for people who violated some kind of oath to that God directly and lost their powers because of it, if I recall, or for people who desire a magical alignment change for a reverse face heel turn or some such.

Wee Jas is certainly capable of permanently cursing the player beyond mortal means to uncurse, whether you actually want that to be a thing depends on your game and players -- it doesn't seem the super serious sort and the gag is probably going to get old sooner rather than later, so I'd probably let Remove Curse get rid of it, too.

[Calthropstu]

I'd say you messed up in sending them to the throne room of a god. They literally have the ability to prevent exactly that. I would have diverted them to the temple grounds where they would have been greeted by a high level angel.

[Bartmanhomer]

You did the right thing. If the player fault for being a rude and disrespectful jerk. If I was a DM I'll definitely do the same thing. :smile:

[FearlessGnome]

...The player got away easy. You don't insult gods without repercussions. That said, eh, like was suggested before, maybe let a Remove Curse remove the curse. Hopefully they learned their lesson.

But if they insult an actual god in a divine realm again, the punishment should probably be much more severe.

[Bartmanhomer]

...The player got away easy. You don't insult gods without repercussions. That said, eh, like was suggested before, maybe let a Remove Curse remove the curse. Hopefully, they learned their lesson.

But if they insult an actual god in a divine realm again, the punishment should probably be much more severe.
I agree. The punishment should be life sentence at Baator.

[Peelee]

I agree. The punishment should be life sentence at Baator.

That doesn't sound like it would make for a fun game. The curse as given seems fine, especially if it was removable. Hell, if it was me aying that character, I may not have the character remove it for a bit because that's a pretty funny effect.

[Particle_Man]

I might have made the curse more ironic, like permanent impotence and inability to experience sexual pleasure ever again. No cure, no save, no conjugal visits for that PC! Heck, that PC is lucky to be alive!

Maybe upgrade the curse if the character decides to use his poop vs. Wee Jas's libraries, etc. Or have a "Remove Curse" change the poop curse to the impotence curse?

Another way to think of it. Would a mortal Tier 1 caster allow someone to dis them without consequences? No? You say there are a thousand creative ways they could torment a fool that did so? Well this is a Goddess of Magic. Go to town!

Also, it gives you the perfect chance to use a Ruby Knight Vindicator against that PC! Striking down uppity fools who dis Wee Jas is their *thing*!

[Bartmanhomer]

That doesn't sound like it would make for a fun game. The curse as given seems fine, especially if it was removable. Hell, if it was me aying that character, I may not have the character remove it for a bit because that's a pretty funny effect.

If the game was serious it would make it appropriate to do that. Players need to have some kind of consequence otherwise people get scot-free to do whatever they want. If it was me I would sentence them to Baator for disrespecting the name of the deity.

[Buufreak]

If the game was serious it would make it appropriate to do that. Players need to have some kind of consequence otherwise people get scot-free to do whatever they want. If it was me I would sentence them to Baator for disrespecting the name of the deity.

And yet that isn't how cosmology works. Baator is reserved for evil and those who sold their souls. Being a **** directly to the face of a god isn't going to clinch that, and thinking that it does is foolish. Yes, there should be some consequence. I even fully believe that smiting the hell out of the character could be appropriate. But not even the gods are powerful enough to change the destination of a soul. Most gods don't even know how souls work, or even how their own afterlife works.

Honestly, OP is fine. Its comical, it keeps the game going, it doesn't require a reroll'd character, and most importantly, it is fitting. To the goddess Wee Jas, a major deity of magic, getting smarted off to by some rando off the street isn't going to flip her lid. She isn't the smiting kind. So something to spontaneously inconvenience this little gnat for the rest of his existence seems fine (sans high level magic).

[Bartmanhomer]

And yet that isn't how cosmology works. Baator is reserved for evil and those who sold their souls. Being a **** directly to the face of a god isn't going to clinch that, and thinking that it does is foolish. Yes, there should be some consequence. I even fully believe that smiting the hell out of the character could be appropriate. But not even the gods are powerful enough to change the destination of a soul. Most gods don't even know how souls work, or even how their own afterlife works.

Honestly, OP is fine. Its comical, it keeps the game going, it doesn't require a reroll'd character, and most importantly, it is fitting. To the goddess Wee Jas, a major deity of magic, getting smarted off to by some rando off the street isn't going to flip her lid. She isn't the smiting kind. So something to spontaneously inconvenience this little gnat for the rest of his existence seems fine (sans high level magic).

Well if you say so.

[denthor]

Lawful neutral Avatar did this. Time for a good deed quest for the deity. To remove curse. Go get a small something stop a chaotic evil human who is upsetting an small building dedicated to her. Only reward for this character is officially curse removed. Unofficial they all share in loot.

Said bad dude starts 1 level below keep track of experience points.

Priest in the area are two to three levels below character

[torrasque666]

I'd say that the Remove Curse has to specifically be cast by a Cleric of Wee Jas. You know, have to go to the clergy of the one he insulted and beg for their forgiveness and that of Wee Jas.

All while crapping himself.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

if she's a god in D&D terms, there's a church/temple/cult somewhere....

In my campaign setting Wee Jas is the goddess of death, magic, vanity, and also taxes. She has government buildings like the post office, funeral homes, etc. There are also parks, streets, and more dedicated to her. The whole country is one big theocracy, and she's not really interested in traditional worship.


I wouldn't let Remove Curse get rid of it either. A 3rd/4th level spell to remove the effect of a god? Kinda makes me think you could mouth off to the gods a lot. I WOULD however, allow its removal via a Atonement and a quest.

I thought about that, but there are WAY more interesting quests that would be more fun; this is a game, and it's supposed to be fun. Besides, as you had guessed he's NOT the atonement type.

As others have pointed out, they were in Pelor's throne room, and Wee Jas cursed someone without Pelor's express permission. They way I'm going to pan this all out is that a simple Remove Curse is all that's needed. However long it takes them to realize that's all that's required depends on whether or not they think to try it.

Heck, Wee Jas is actually going to be paying a visit to her theocracy soon. (Well, her avatar is, but y'know.) If they hadn't used Remove Curse by the time she stops by their church, her reaction will simply be, "Oh your god! Why haven't you tried casting Remove Curse?? Why would you think it was permanent?? I'm not a monster."


I'd say you messed up in sending them to the throne room of a god. They literally have the ability to prevent exactly that. I would have diverted them to the temple grounds where they would have been greeted by a high level angel.

I was bending the rules since we were in the middle of combat. We did the math, and the fight with the phase spider lasted 36 seconds in-game. The actual time spent playing that match was over 2 hours. I figured that, since Troy was a cleric of Pelor, and he set down the portal, and he was the first one through, that it only made sense to plop them in the throne room directly for both comical and dramatic purposes. Also, it was convenient to get them back to the fight on the material plane.

Like, it's a game, and in our game fun trumps rules.


I'd say that the Remove Curse has to specifically be cast by a Cleric of Wee Jas. You know, have to go to the clergy of the one he insulted and beg for their forgiveness and that of Wee Jas.

All while crapping himself.

That'd be hilarious, except he's not the begging sort :biggrin:


That doesn't sound like it would make for a fun game. The curse as given seems fine, especially if it was removable. Hell, if it was me aying that character, I may not have the character remove it for a bit because that's a pretty funny effect.

BINGO! People sometimes forget this is just a game, and games are supposed to be fun. He got to mouth off to a god he's held in quite the contempt. (Norin HATES Wee Jas.) So, yeah, that was fun for the player and for the character.

That said, there do still need to be consequences for doing dumb things, but the consequences themselves should also facilitate "fun." (Because that's why we're all playing in the first place.)


Also! Someone said that it doesn't make sense for some randos to be mouthing off to gods without more severe consequences. Technically they're not randos: besides the meta-logic of them being player characters, I'm also playing up this magical destiny of them being able to alter fate with their actions. (They're the heroes that are the only ones that can prevent the apocalypse, yadda yadda yadda.)



Thanks for all the input. Nobody seems to think I went too far with the explosive diarrhea, and most of you agree that the cure should be something simple.

[Vaern]

I wouldn't think that this curse would function on him to begin with. Neraphim are outsiders, which means he does not need to eat or drink. Unless he is either an exception to this quality due to some anomaly involving his rebirth from a mortal form, or he is frequently eating as a recreational activity, his digestive system should not have any contents to expel when the goddess's name is mentioned.
In order to function properly, the curse would either have to be paired with a persistent conjuration (creation) effect on his colon - in which case he's lucky he's not depositing literal bricks into his armor - or, the "curse" would have to actually be a complex and persistent illusion effect that causes the neraph and all around him to believe that he is affected by a curse as has been described, which he may eventually be able to disbelieve once he catches on that it's rather strange for a creature who doesn't eat to need to pack so many pairs of brown pants.
If you regret such a silly and permanent punishment, perhaps go with the "it's actually an illusion" route and let him get rid of it in a couple of sessions. Drop a hint or two as his character drops trou, perhaps having an NPC in the vicinity comment that it's odd for an outsider to be subject to such primitive mortal biological functions.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

I wouldn't think that this curse would function on him to begin with. Neraphim are outsiders, which means he does not need to eat or drink. Unless he is either an exception to this quality due to some anomaly involving his rebirth from a mortal form, or he is frequently eating as a recreational activity, his digestive system should not have any contents to expel when the goddess's name is mentioned.
In order to function properly, the curse would either have to be paired with a persistent conjuration (creation) effect on his colon - in which case he's lucky he's not depositing literal bricks into his armor - or, the "curse" would have to actually be a complex and persistent illusion effect that causes the neraph and all around him to believe that he is affected by a curse as has been described, which he may eventually be able to disbelieve once he catches on that it's rather strange for a creature who doesn't eat to need to pack so many pairs of brown pants.
If you regret such a silly and permanent punishment, perhaps go with the "it's actually an illusion" route and let him get rid of it in a couple of sessions. Drop a hint or two as his character drops trou, perhaps having an NPC in the vicinity comment that it's odd for an outsider to be subject to such primitive mortal biological functions.

From the wiki as sourced from the Planar Handbook: "Neraphim have developed special hunting tools and techniques, giving them exceptional skill in bringing down the game they seek above all else: the chaos beast, one of which provides a neraph tribe nutrition and raw materials for clothing for a week."

I have no idea why you would think that neraphim don't eat :smallconfused:

[Vaern]

From the wiki as sourced from the Planar Handbook: "Neraphim have developed special hunting tools and techniques, giving them exceptional skill in bringing down the game they seek above all else: the chaos beast, one of which provides a neraph tribe nutrition and raw materials for clothing for a week."

I have no idea why you would think that neraphim don't eat :smallconfused:
I hadn't read anything other than their stat block, which says that they're outsiders. Outsiders explicitly don't need to eat according to the type description in the Monster Manual and SRD.

Outsider: Neraphim are native to the plane of Limbo, and thus have the outsider type. They gain the extraplanar subtype when not on Limbo.

Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
This leaves no reason to believe that the bit about neraphim hunting and eating chaos beasts is anything more than fluff. The only exception would be if this particular neraph was considered a native outsider. Native outsiders are described as either having mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the material plane, which the DM may find appropriate for someone who was previously a mortal of the material plane and then turned into an outsider.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

I don't care if you call it "fluff." The book that is the source of the neraphim says they eat food. Everything that eats poops, ergo they poop.

[Dimers]

The character is learning about dung-eoneering. :smallcool:

Nothing useful to contribute, just the pun.

[Mordaedil]

The mildness of the curse really reflects exactly how insulted the deities were as well. They basically pranked him a little and I see now issue with it being removed with a remove curse spell this time. But you could also remind the player that every time he goes to the bathroom he hears a cold chuckle inside of his mind, just reminding him exactly where she has him.

It is a bit out of character for Wee Jas to do it this kind of prank, but you know who am I to argue. Maybe she was just having one of those days.

Ultimately it is your game, and I think you just need the players approval that it is funny. Of course, it doesn't hurt to make his stomach run a little bit every time he disrepects Wee Jas when she is not around.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

It is a bit out of character for Wee Jas to do it this kind of prank, but you know who am I to argue. Maybe she was just having one of those days.

I'm curious, how do you think either Pelor or Wee Jas would have reacted? Maybe not necessarily a punishment, but any sort of reaction.

As Miguel and Tulio once sang: "It's tough to be a god..."

[ZamielVanWeber]

I don't care if you call it "fluff." The book that is the source of the neraphim says they eat food. Everything that eats poops, ergo they poop.

Some simply: a god has informed the neraph he now poops. He can argue until he is blue in the face his body produces no poop, but he is poopin' regardless. Because magic.

[Calthropstu]

I don't care if you call it "fluff." The book that is the source of the neraphim says they eat food. Everything that eats poops, ergo they poop.

Everybody poops...

[weckar]

Not sure while I felt doing research on this, but technically Neraphim, like Slaad, excrete all waste directly through their skin.

No I don't know what that looks/smells like.

[Vizzerdrix]

Not sure while I felt doing research on this, but technically Neraphim, like Slaad, excrete all waste directly through their skin.

No I don't know what that looks/smells like.

Citation needed. My current group has a neraphim in it and I desperately wish to call them Stinky.

[Callin]

Not sure while I felt doing research on this, but technically Neraphim, like Slaad, excrete all waste directly through their skin.

No I don't know what that looks/smells like.

Im just suprised Pelor the Burning Hate cavorter with Wee Jas didnt just smite him and let it be over with.

[denthor]

What level are your players?

[Composer99]

I would agree that you as a person should not be punishing your player, as a person, for their character's actions.

However, deities certainly have no reason not to punish mortals who insult them. It depends on the personality of the deity and the nature of the action. Some deities, Erythnul, for instance, might well kill over a lesser insult, especially when it's made to their faces in a divine realm where such strictures on deific interference in the Material Plane as you might have decided are in place don't apply.

So the question is, as the person who is portraying Wee Jas in your game, does it make sense to you that she would be offended by the insult the player made, and if yes, how offended? Or, even if she's not personally offended, does it make sense that she would consider it necessary and sensible to make an example of a mere mortal who insults her in such a manner, pour encourager les autres? If the answer to either question is yes, then there's nothing unjustified about her cursing the neraph.

Causing a character to poop does seem a bit... well, juvenile for Wee Jas. On the other hand, as a deity involved with a facet of life that involves a lot of grossness (rotting), a more puerile sense of humour might well be right up her alley. All in all, I'd be inclined to think that, as a deity of the dead, she'd be more likely to instead cause a character to continually reek of a charnel stench of death (especially since you can't put it in a bag and sling it at anything). However, since poop it is, poop it is. Well and good.

As far as removing the curse goes, I would say that a spell such as remove curse should suppress the effect for a time, although if prepared in (and therefore cast from) a sufficiently higher-level spell slot, it could remove the curse entirely. Or Wee Jas could remove it of her own accord at some point. In any event, the kinds of restrictions deities place on themselves and each other to not interfere too openly in mortal affairs justify not making such a curse permanent and untreatable.

All that's to say that I don't really see a problem with Wee Jas cursing a mortal for their witless wagging of the tongue on principle, even if I might quibble with the nature of the curse.

[weckar]

I would say that a spell such as remove curse should suppress the effect for a time, although if prepared in (and therefore cast from) a sufficiently higher-level spell slot, it could remove the curse entirely.Without Heighten Spell used, a spell cast from a higher level slot is just as powerful as one from its normal spell level slot. This ain't 5e.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

What level are your players?

Good question! The bard is 4th, but he's a githyanki so he's got that +2 adjustment.

The chaos crusader was 6th, but died when he was human (and lost a level). The party all made pacts with Shivering Jemmy, and she reincarnated him as a neraph.

There's a human sorceress who is now 7th level.

A skinny half-orc druid who's taken levels in Master of Many Forms. He's around 7th.

There's a human cleric of Pelor, about 7th level.

And finally there's a halfling drunken master, about 7th level (who also took a vow of poverty).

They're a bunch of wacky, scrappy underdogs who are questing to save the world... sometimes.


Citation needed. My current group has a neraphim in it and I desperately wish to call them Stinky.

I second this. I'm now utterly fascinated.


Im just suprised Pelor the Burning Hate cavorter with Wee Jas didnt just smite him and let it be over with.

The gods have taken particular interest in these mortals because of some BS "chosen" reasons. They can alter fate, which the gods can't do. They're inclined to show some leniency, but only just some.

[Mordaedil]

I'm curious, how do you think either Pelor or Wee Jas would have reacted? Maybe not necessarily a punishment, but any sort of reaction.

As Miguel and Tulio once sang: "It's tough to be a god..."

Pelor is a bit depending on whether you buy into the idea that he's actually, secretly evil. If you assume that is false, Pelor is the kind of deity that doesn't hold grudges, so he'd mostly admonish the jokester on the spot and let that be it.

Wee Jas? I don't think you got her personality wrong in the type of cursing the player, but I reckon maybe flatulence is a little bit below her. I can sort of see where you came from with it, but she is a deity of death and magic. Maybe I'd focus on making the curse more in line with that portfolio, but I have a hard time thinking of anything fits perfectly. Maybe the smell of death surrounding them or a suffering of rigor mortis at random.

[NNescio]

Pelor is a bit depending on whether you buy into the idea that he's actually, secretly evil. If you assume that is false, Pelor is the kind of deity that doesn't hold grudges, so he'd mostly admonish the jokester on the spot and let that be it.

Wee Jas? I don't think you got her personality wrong in the type of cursing the player, but I reckon maybe flatulence is a little bit below her. I can sort of see where you came from with it, but she is a deity of death and magic. Maybe I'd focus on making the curse more in line with that portfolio, but I have a hard time thinking of anything fits perfectly. Maybe the smell of death surrounding them or a suffering of rigor mortis at random.

"Everyone has to make a Will save or perceive the cursed creature as an undead creature."

(Naturally a creative player can attempt to benefit from this.)

[Bronk]

I think if I had cursed the PC (and for some reason done it the same way), I would also make it easily removed as others have mentioned, except that it would be accompanied by your world's post offices and libraries and so on which you've tied to Wee Jas shun him and lose his mail and so on. If the curse wasn't lifted by a cleric of Wee Jas and accompanied by an apology, that second part would continue and would crop up in game whenever necessary.



The gods have taken particular interest in these mortals because of some BS "chosen" reasons. They can alter fate, which the gods can't do. They're inclined to show some leniency, but only just some.

On the other hand, what if you double down by putting together this 'altering fate' thing with a few of the concepts from the other posters? We can see that neraphs eat, but as outsiders they don't need to. Which could mean that they choose to eat. Since their favored prey is the Chaos Beast, there's no reason for them to eat anything else. Chaos beasts are themselves chaotic outsiders, so you could rule that it's their chaos that's being digested, so that what's left over is lawful.

Further, the PC now basically poops on command, and it wouldn't be much of a curse if it didn't work when empty, so the poop must be magically created each time. Which means that it's magically created lawful material.

So... What if Wee Jas took the opportunity afforded by being directly insulted to forward her plans? This curse, delivered in another god's realm and right under his nose, has now made a being capable of changing fate a purveyor of lawful material that comes directly from Wee Jas herself. In this case, it would be hard or impossible to remove this curse, although maybe it could be altered to be something less scatologically embarrassing, or maybe converted into a boon of some kind (if there's the apology and maybe a quest) but that still delivers some kind of magically lawful influence that can fly under the radar of the other gods.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

I would agree that you as a person should not be punishing your player, as a person, for their character's actions.

However, deities certainly have no reason not to punish mortals who insult them. It depends on the personality of the deity and the nature of the action. Some deities, Erythnul, for instance, might well kill over a lesser insult, especially when it's made to their faces in a divine realm where such strictures on deific interference in the Material Plane as you might have decided are in place don't apply.

So the question is, as the person who is portraying Wee Jas in your game, does it make sense to you that she would be offended by the insult the player made, and if yes, how offended? Or, even if she's not personally offended, does it make sense that she would consider it necessary and sensible to make an example of a mere mortal who insults her in such a manner, pour encourager les autres? If the answer to either question is yes, then there's nothing unjustified about her cursing the neraph.

Causing a character to poop does seem a bit... well, juvenile for Wee Jas. On the other hand, as a deity involved with a facet of life that involves a lot of grossness (rotting), a more puerile sense of humour might well be right up her alley. All in all, I'd be inclined to think that, as a deity of the dead, she'd be more likely to instead cause a character to continually reek of a charnel stench of death (especially since you can't put it in a bag and sling it at anything). However, since poop it is, poop it is. Well and good.

As far as removing the curse goes, I would say that a spell such as remove curse should suppress the effect for a time, although if prepared in (and therefore cast from) a sufficiently higher-level spell slot, it could remove the curse entirely. Or Wee Jas could remove it of her own accord at some point. In any event, the kinds of restrictions deities place on themselves and each other to not interfere too openly in mortal affairs justify not making such a curse permanent and untreatable.

All that's to say that I don't really see a problem with Wee Jas cursing a mortal for their witless wagging of the tongue on principle, even if I might quibble with the nature of the curse.

Thanks for the input! Yeah, I haven't mentioned one thing that might help pull all this together: in my setting, Wee Jas and Pelor actually did briefly date... over 30,000 years ago. So besides the blatant disrespect, Norin actually struck a bit of a chord with her. From her perspective, she was visiting a friend in a professional setting to discuss why one of Pelor's clerics had established a church in her theocracy.

"You already have millions of worshipers throughout the world, and now you're trying to take a cut of my little country?"

But I can also see Pelor playing 4D chess, allowing said cleric to open a portal into his throne room, knowing full well Norin the Neraph would lip off to Wee Jas, causing Wee Jas to curse Norin in His throne room, and using that as leverage in negotiating why he should be allowed to open a church in N'nil (Her theocracy).

Mind you, it could still be argued that the curse that was bestowed on Norin is a mere temporary thing, easily removed by Remove Curse, and Wee Jas will certainly make that case as well. Which brings us back to square one: what to do about the church...

But that's a completely different rabbit hole.


I think if I had cursed the PC (and for some reason done it the same way), I would also make it easily removed as others have mentioned, except that it would be accompanied by your world's post offices and libraries and so on which you've tied to Wee Jas shun him and lose his mail and so on. If the curse wasn't lifted by a cleric of Wee Jas and accompanied by an apology, that second part would continue and would crop up in game whenever necessary.

Norin isn't the type to apologize to anyone, not even a god. He's the sort of character who's so single-minded about chaos that he nearly wraps around from chaotic-stupid to lawful-stupid.

I do like the idea of him losing access to things like a library card, postal services, etc. But Norin isn't going to care about these things. He's technically already signed a document agreeing to be diagnosed as "mentally disabled," so another member of the party is now considered his caretaker. This caretaker would, in his stead, take care of all his legal documentation.

This is actually to the benefit (and sanity) of everyone. They have an allied NPC who is the grand auditor of the nation (and a very powerful cleric). He's the one who processed the party's paperwork when they entered the country, and also the one who nearly broke while interviewing Norin.

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU WORSHIP CHAOS?? CHAOS IS A CONCEPT! IT'S NOT A GOD! THAT'S LIKE... WORSHIPING THE NUMBER 2!"


On the other hand, what if you double down by putting together this 'altering fate' thing with a few of the concepts from the other posters? We can see that neraphs eat, but as outsiders they don't need to. Which could mean that they choose to eat. Since their favored prey is the Chaos Beast, there's no reason for them to eat anything else. Chaos beasts are themselves chaotic outsiders, so you could rule that it's their chaos that's being digested, so that what's left over is lawful.

I'm so confused. Where does it say that outsiders don't eat? Because the Planar Handbook says that outsiders (like the neraphim) do get nutrition. Everything that eats MUST poop.


Further, the PC now basically poops on command, and it wouldn't be much of a curse if it didn't work when empty, so the poop must be magically created each time. Which means that it's magically created lawful material.

So... What if Wee Jas took the opportunity afforded by being directly insulted to forward her plans? This curse, delivered in another god's realm and right under his nose, has now made a being capable of changing fate a purveyor of lawful material that comes directly from Wee Jas herself. In this case, it would be hard or impossible to remove this curse, although maybe it could be altered to be something less scatologically embarrassing, or maybe converted into a boon of some kind (if there's the apology and maybe a quest) but that still delivers some kind of magically lawful influence that can fly under the radar of the other gods.

PFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Okay, I can't even now!


All this aside, I just got word from Norin's player. He's needing to set things like D&D aside to tend to things in his personal life, so this next game we play will be his last game for the foreseeable future. I'm gonna give him a proper sendoff by sending the party to The Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo, so Norin can finish amongst his kind.

I'm sad to see him go, really. Nearly every story we have in our games starts with "And then Norin did THIS." I hope his player comes back some day, because I'm sure whatever he'll play next will be just as fascinating.

On the other hand, Jace (Norin's player) is a wildcard unto himself. I've been wanting to implement a Helm of Opposite Alignment for the neutral-evil githyanki bard. I'd mentioned to the bard's player privately that I was thinking of doing something like that for a redemption arc, and he's cool with it. Problem is is that I know Norin would take that helm, and go around town randomly placing it on people's heads. Now I don't have to worry about that, though I'd still have to keep in mind that the helm would still be extremely dangerous if left in the party's hands.

[Psychoalpha]

And no, I wouldn't let Remove Curse get rid of it either. A 3rd/4th level spell to remove the effect of a god? Kinda makes me think you could mouth off to the gods a lot. I WOULD however, allow its removal via a Atonement and a quest.

I guess it depends how badly you think Wee Jas actually took it. Personally I'd have had her meant it in the same way you might flick a kid in the forehead if they're being a little turd. Not harmful, not permanent, just an annoyed 'Knock it off.' This PC is, after all, little more than a child to Wee Jas.

It being something that can be taken care of with Remove Curse isn't a flaw, it's a feature. Not every flick to the forehead has to leave a stigmata that has to be overcome with an epic quest. Sometimes it's just a flick to the forehead.

This would also jive with her having done so in Pelor's throne room, where his authority should be absolute, and her imposing a more severe punishment would not really be the Lawful thing to do. ;)

[A_Gray_Phantom]

I guess it depends how badly you think Wee Jas actually took it. Personally I'd have had her meant it in the same way you might flick a kid in the forehead if they're being a little turd. Not harmful, not permanent, just an annoyed 'Knock it off.' This PC is, after all, little more than a child to Wee Jas.

It being something that can be taken care of with Remove Curse isn't a flaw, it's a feature. Not every flick to the forehead has to leave a stigmata that has to be overcome with an epic quest. Sometimes it's just a flick to the forehead.

This would also jive with her having done so in Pelor's throne room, where his authority should be absolute, and her imposing a more severe punishment would not really be the Lawful thing to do. ;)

Precisely. At the end of the day this is a game. It's supposed to be fun. Whenever I do anything, I have to weigh in, "Okay, but is this fun?" If the answer is "no," then I usually try something else.