What Artificer Subclass is Better?

[Khrysaes]

Artillerist, battlesmith, or the other two?

I was looking at them and I just can't help that the iron defender sucks.

It gets, based on the wording (5x arti level) + Int mod + Iron Defender Con Mod(or 107) HP, no new skills, no increases in stats, no increase in AC. It may be able to wear items, but they don't seem worth it? Then the level 6 and 14 feature seem like a waste to use on the iron defender, although I guess a free 10-20d4 healing(in 5 bursts) isn't the worst. It just does not seem to scale well and if I took it the iron defender would just stand next to me in order to use defensive pounce when needed. If the Iron defender can wear Plate armor barding and attune to items it may be worth it? If it got 5x(arti level + arti int + iron defender con) hp it would definitely be more worth it.

Compared to the revised ranger beastmaser that will never see the light of publication it is really bad.

Then there is the Artillerist, which seems to get two really useful bonus action spells (comparing to spirit weapon), that take only a 1st level slot, but also unfortunately don't scale until level 14. They have 18 ac a climb speed, and at level 14 grant half cover to each other, so you can have a 1d8 +int temp hp granting turret per turn, and a 2d8 damage dealing turret with 18 ac and half cover and benefit from the half cover and temp hp too. I think for a pure artificer this gets better spells too.

I actually like the features of the archivist the most. With the pouch infusion from level 4 and level 6 arti you can get a telepathic network setup, and pass small physical objects through. You get a nice cantrip effect of 1-4d8 + int damage that grants advantage to the next attack against it with an INT save. 2 skills that can be changed out and an invulnerable scout that also creates light, and a teleport.

[Contrast]

I was looking at them and I just can't help that the iron defender sucks.

It gets, based on the wording (5x arti level) + Int mod + Iron Defender Con Mod(or 107) HP, no new skills, no increases in stats, no increase in AC. It may be able to wear items, but they don't seem worth it? Then the level 6 and 14 feature seem like a waste to use on the iron defender, although I guess a free 10-20d4 healing(in 5 bursts) isn't the worst. It just does not seem to scale well and if I took it the iron defender would just stand next to me in order to use defensive pounce when needed. If the Iron defender can wear Plate armor barding and attune to items it may be worth it? If it got 5x(arti level + arti int + iron defender con) hp it would definitely be more worth it.

I think you're underselling the Iron Defender here. The main selling point is that it comes back at full hit points if you spend a spell slot and use mending to repair it so it will almost all the time be able to enter combat on full HP. Every attack against it 'heals' your allies by not targeting them and it can heal and cause disadvantage. Jam it in combat.

If a beastmaster could resummon a dead beast in a minute that would go a long way to improving the subclass in my opinion.


As to which is the best subclass - I'm playing an alchemist at the moment but for my money the whole class is a little underwhelming unfortunately. I'm inclined to say archivist or battle smith were the best probably.

[Dork_Forge]

Artillerist, battlesmith, or the other two?

I was looking at them and I just can't help that the iron defender sucks.

It gets, based on the wording (5x arti level) + Int mod + Iron Defender Con Mod(or 107) HP, no new skills, no increases in stats, no increase in AC. It may be able to wear items, but they don't seem worth it? Then the level 6 and 14 feature seem like a waste to use on the iron defender, although I guess a free 10-20d4 healing(in 5 bursts) isn't the worst. It just does not seem to scale well and if I took it the iron defender would just stand next to me in order to use defensive pounce when needed. If the Iron defender can wear Plate armor barding and attune to items it may be worth it? If it got 5x(arti level + arti int + iron defender con) hp it would definitely be more worth it.

Compared to the revised ranger beastmaser that will never see the light of publication it is really bad.

Then there is the Artillerist, which seems to get two really useful bonus action spells (comparing to spirit weapon), that take only a 1st level slot, but also unfortunately don't scale until level 14. They have 18 ac a climb speed, and at level 14 grant half cover to each other, so you can have a 1d8 +int temp hp granting turret per turn, and a 2d8 damage dealing turret with 18 ac and half cover and benefit from the half cover and temp hp too. I think for a pure artificer this gets better spells too.

I actually like the features of the archivist the most. With the pouch infusion from level 4 and level 6 arti you can get a telepathic network setup, and pass small physical objects through. You get a nice cantrip effect of 1-4d8 + int damage that grants advantage to the next attack against it with an INT save. 2 skills that can be changed out and an invulnerable scout that also creates light, and a teleport.

My favourite (and I'd argue the best) is the Battle Smith, in regards to the Iron Defender it does scale based on your prof bonus (increasing its to hit, damage, skill bonuses and the amount it can heal itself) and one of the best things about it is the Defensive Pounce. Every turn the ID should be imposing disadvantage on an attack and soaking damage the team could be taking as a HP tank (it can heal itself and you can heal it with a cantrip). Then there's the benefit of positioning if you're using flanking or similar rules, dark vision if you don't have it yourself, it can't be surprised and it's an extra attack (and chance to trigger Arcane Jolt) every turn without needing TWF or PAM.

I've played a V. Human Battlesmith playing up the combat medic role and not only had a blast but was effective in and out of combat.

[Damon_Tor]

Artillerist, battlesmith, or the other two?

I was looking at them and I just can't help that the iron defender sucks.

It gets, based on the wording (5x arti level) + Int mod + Iron Defender Con Mod(or 107) HP, no new skills, no increases in stats, no increase in AC. It may be able to wear items, but they don't seem worth it? Then the level 6 and 14 feature seem like a waste to use on the iron defender, although I guess a free 10-20d4 healing(in 5 bursts) isn't the worst. It just does not seem to scale well and if I took it the iron defender would just stand next to me in order to use defensive pounce when needed. If the Iron defender can wear Plate armor barding and attune to items it may be worth it? If it got 5x(arti level + arti int + iron defender con) hp it would definitely be more worth it.

Compared to the revised ranger beastmaser that will never see the light of publication it is really bad.

There are two extremes to consider here:
1. Your DM will never attack the Iron Defender. In which case his HP and AC are irrelevant
2. Your DM attacks your Iron Defender. In this case it's hitpoints can be seen as a pure bonus to your party's overall HP. An extra 5 hitpoints every character level is absurdly good, especially when you can (usually) recover those hitpoints with zero resource expenditure with a cantrip, and fully recover all those hitpoints with a level 1 spell slot.
In practice the fact is the DM is going to want to ignore the ID as much as possible, which means its up to your tactical decisions to make it difficult for him to ignore it.

[moonfly7]

Artillerist is the best, imhop. The turrets are great, and you can get a pretty nice cantrip wand, which is actually very helpful. At level 14 you have two cantrips in one wand, and(I interpreted it) you can thus cast both in one fell swoop. But I could be wrongm

[RickAllison]

Artillerist, battlesmith, or the other two?

I was looking at them and I just can't help that the iron defender sucks.

It gets, based on the wording (5x arti level) + Int mod + Iron Defender Con Mod(or 107) HP, no new skills, no increases in stats, no increase in AC. It may be able to wear items, but they don't seem worth it? Then the level 6 and 14 feature seem like a waste to use on the iron defender, although I guess a free 10-20d4 healing(in 5 bursts) isn't the worst. It just does not seem to scale well and if I took it the iron defender would just stand next to me in order to use defensive pounce when needed. If the Iron defender can wear Plate armor barding and attune to items it may be worth it? If it got 5x(arti level + arti int + iron defender con) hp it would definitely be more worth it.

Compared to the revised ranger beastmaser that will never see the light of publication it is really bad.

Remember that the Beastmaster Revised still takes 8 hours and 25 gp to bring their companion back. The Battle Smith can do that with a 1st-level slot and an action, plus they can heal the thing as a cantrip so it's a rare occurrence for them to die in the first place. In terms of durability, the Iron Defender is more vulnerable in combat but also exceedingly hard to actually keep down. You don't really have to worry about your ID dying like you do for an animal companion, because the worst case is you bring them back as soon as you have a moment of rest (as in, literally one turn). While the 5*level may not seem like a lot for HP, it's still fairly hefty and is at least competitive with other characters.

Also remember that power-wise, it fulfills a very different function. The Battle Smith has the full Extra Attack and everything with the ID acting more like a spiritual weapon; it's a bonus action attack, essentially, whereas the BM is replacing their Extra Attack with the beast. Rather than comparing the damage to the Revised BM, compare it to Polearm Master or such, Spiritual Weapon, and other bonus action damage sources.

That all being said, Iron Defender to me is more of a defensive and mobility tool. The best use I can think of it is as a mount for a Small race PC. Use a lance or go crossbow, call it good. In terms of spells, most of Battle Smith is pretty lackluster, with two notable exceptions. Mass Cure Wounds is the obvious one, providing an ace in the hole to get your entire party up after an AoE, but it's too high of level to be practical. At 9th level, however, we have Aura of Vitality, one of the best value healing spells in the game.


Then there is the Artillerist, which seems to get two really useful bonus action spells (comparing to spirit weapon), that take only a 1st level slot, but also unfortunately don't scale until level 14. They have 18 ac a climb speed, and at level 14 grant half cover to each other, so you can have a 1d8 +int temp hp granting turret per turn, and a 2d8 damage dealing turret with 18 ac and half cover and benefit from the half cover and temp hp too. I think for a pure artificer this gets better spells too.

Artillerist is a bit awkward at times. I'm playing one and I find that I don't use the turrets so much. However, they do have their moments to shine. The climbing allows you to make good use of the turrets for ambushes and tricky attacks. I've used the Force Ballista to knock members of a boarding party off the side of our ship, while a well-placed flamethrower can both clear out low-level sentries, but do so in a way that will allow the party elsewhere to act.

Their special cantrip wand is another interesting effect. It retains the ability to change cantrips (on a long rest) to react to the challenges you face, such as switching out Fire Bolt when you are going into Avernus, but also frees up your other cantrips for the abundance of useful utility cantrips Artficers have access to. When you have 2 or 3 cantrips for most of your career, getting that free offensive one really frees you up for interesting abilities.


I actually like the features of the archivist the most. With the pouch infusion from level 4 and level 6 arti you can get a telepathic network setup, and pass small physical objects through. You get a nice cantrip effect of 1-4d8 + int damage that grants advantage to the next attack against it with an INT save. 2 skills that can be changed out and an invulnerable scout that also creates light, and a teleport.

I love a lot of the Archivist, with most of my complaints being that it is just so wonky. Apparently it is on the chopping block for the initial release of the Artificer, but I look forward to the subclass coming out in a later book, once they've refined the idea more. The best infusion for Archivists is, IMO, the Many-Handed Pouch. One infusion that's useful on its own, and now you can communicate with (and later teleport to) the entire party. I really like this subclass, however you won't get much use out of the crafting bonus. As a wizard dip, I think it could be great, but scrolls more favor classes which have a lot of spells, enabling access to niche spells that they know will come up but don't show up that often. The archivist can make use of those, it's true, but it pales compared to the Artillerist making wands instead.

The poor Alchemist got left off your list though... but I see why. The Alchemist has some potent effects, but not as defining as the other subclasses. Like an Alchemist seems more like an Artificer who dabbles in alchemy than really doubling down on the subclass features like you can with the others. Still, the homunculus is good, the acid cantrip can hold its own, and potion crafting becomes a really good option. A regular Potion of Healing can now be made in two hours for 12.5 gp.

In terms of ranking which is the best, that really depends on what you are trying to do, because the Artificer is really versatile. The Battle Smith is going to make a great warrior; be a valiant halfling riding a mechanical raptor with lance and shield, maybe with some ranged weapons nearby. He will probably be using his spells for either healing or utility. The Archivist is amazing for recon, getting in and out with no one the wiser. The Artillerist is, well, artillery; he blows things up really well, it's hard to argue with fireball and the wand crafting lets him have significantly more spellcasting than you would think for a half caster. Finally Alchemist... Alchemist doesn't really do any one thing well, but it can be an okay switch hitter. I would say Alchemist at the bottom, the other three best at their specializations, and for a general artificer... I would go Battle Smith. Unless you are really devoting yourself to crafting wands to make up the difference, it's not realistic to expect that you can keep up with Sorcerers or Evokers, or any wizard who decides to prepare some blast spells. But Battle Smith really helps you be better at the fighting and focus your spells on utility.

So I would say Battle Smith is the best in general, followed by Artillerist and Archivist, then Alchemist.

[Sherlockpwns]

Artillerist, battlesmith, or the other two?

I was looking at them and I just can't help that the iron defender sucks.



I think the greatest advantage of the Iron Defender is... you can ride it as a small race. That puts it as basically a superior option to PHB Ranger (Revised ranger is "unbalanced arcana" and as you say, will never see publication, so I consider it unplayable personally).

It does slightly less damage than, say, a giant snake. But it provides significantly more HP and far more utility as a meat shield.

I don't know if that makes it the "best" artificer subclass, but I think that is where the power of this subclass starts to get very competitive.

It's basically granting you a free disadvantage every time something tries to hit you in melee, since you'll always be "within 5 ft" - though your DM will probably never attack it directly if you're playing in a "difficult" scenario, but it will have enough HP and cure abilities to survive basically any AOE blasts, even without Mounted Combatant feat and it basically is always starting at full HP since you can reset its HP with cantrips after every battle. This means it is the only mount in the game where mounted combatant isn't required, freeing up an ASI for something else. Basically its power only goes up if your DM is spending actions attacking it, but without that I still think its damn competitive, allowing for some extra dmg as a bonus action or a disengage, an giving you a 40ft-80ft move speed.

Anyway, yeah I see it as a viable option for anyone who wants to make a mounted combatant for either melee or just for kiting ranged attacks.

[Chaos Jackal]

There are two extremes to consider here:
1. Your DM will never attack the Iron Defender. In which case his HP and AC are irrelevant
2. Your DM attacks your Iron Defender. In this case it's hitpoints can be seen as a pure bonus to your party's overall HP. An extra 5 hitpoints every character level is absurdly good, especially when you can (usually) recover those hitpoints with zero resource expenditure with a cantrip, and fully recover all those hitpoints with a level 1 spell slot.
In practice the fact is the DM is going to want to ignore the ID as much as possible, which means its up to your tactical decisions to make it difficult for him to ignore it.

While the ID's damage isn't anything spectacular, it's still an extra source of damage, and Defensive Pounce means that it will contribute defensively even if ignored. Really, no matter the extreme, the ID is useful. It's surprisingly hard to kill, very easy to bring back if that happens, can act as either a meat (or iron) shield or defensive support while chipping off damage, and can serve as a ride to a Small character. Plus an additional chance to proc Arcane Jolt.

Targeting the ID means an easily repaceable bunch of HP gets hit instead of a player. Not targeting the ID means gaining numerous benefits unhindered. In all situations, even extreme ones, the ID is worth it.

[Throne12]

The I've played a artificer alchemist up to lv 10. The alchemist familiar is a nice little thing to have. I didnt use it much but its ability to grant Inspiration was great and saved us many times. But I got the most out of the potion creation ability. 1 of my infusions was the alchemy jar so with that making oil, poison, I was making healing potions, potions of fire breath, alchemist fires, ect was great. In one day I can make at least 2 potions. Me working one one then get one from alch jar.

[Khrysaes]

Thanks for the evaluation guys, it is much appreciated.

A question and some context:

1: My character is an Envoy Warforged Artificer 2/Arcane Cleric 1/Lore Mastery Wizard 2. and I planned on only upping arti from here.

2: My character is from Ravnica and a member of the Izzet league

3: My DM gave me 750 gold in addition to the starting gold from the background. I asked him if I could get a Mizzium Apparatus.

4: If I do get the Mizzium Apparatus, then, depending on the reading I may have access to 1: the entire wizard cantrip pool and first level spells; 2: the entire wizard, cleric, AND artificer cantrip pools, cleric and wizard first level spells, and the entire artificer spell list; 3: the entire wizard spell list; or 4: the entire spell lists for wizard, cleric, AND artificer (This is RAW).
Assuming I have the spell slot for the requested spell level and make an arcana check.

5: Can you add barding or other items to the Iron Defender or Homunculous?

6: If 5 is true, and 4.4 is true as it is RAW, then I could see a of argument for anything BUT the artillerist.

6.1: I could respec my cleric level to life cleric, wear heavy armor and go alchemist for a lot of healing ability, since the arcana cleric cantrips wouldn't matter. Adding a breastplate barding to the homunculous would up its survivability. Maybe other items. I actually think that the homunculous could be more useful than the ID. This also gets the most use out of Lore wizard's spell secret ability to change elemental types.

6.2: I could go Archivist as I think feature wise it is the most fun especially with many handed pouch communication and my find familiar can hold one and since it has an intelligence of 10(tressym) it can communicate telepathically with me beyond the share senses. Additionally I can use it to communicate with other people by leaving the familiar with them and the pouch, as I can just dismiss then resummon the familiar to me.

6.3: Artillerist has only 1 spell on its spell list that a wizard doesn't have, wind wall. AND with the mizzium apparatus I, by likely RAI, would be able to cast at the very least any wizard cantrip at will, so other than the INT to damage, I gain nothing from the level 6 feature. So I can get more from the other subclasses. If I don't get the apparatus then I think this is my top choice.

6.4:If the ID can wear barding or magic items then I can(more cheaply) make it some full plate to up its AC at least. I would also try to convince that the HP(for the homunculous too) is 5x(level + Int + ID Con), which would make it much more appropriately scaling. Maybe if i can either make them or find them, STR and Con items(same goes for homunculous). Unfortunately I cant ride it.

7: I think ill ask my party which they think will be most useful depending on the outcome of 3, 4, and 5.

[Damon_Tor]

5: Can you add barding or other items to the Iron Defender or Homunculous?

Why wouldn't you be able to?

[masterjoda99]

What source is Mizzium Apparatus from?

[Khrysaes]

What source is Mizzium Apparatus from?

Guild masters guide to ravnica page 179

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?598058-RAW-Magic-Item-Ruling-please