I feel a TPK incoming - HotQD - Castle Naetyr

[DanWardog]

Hey friends,

This is about Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Episode 6, Castle Naetyr.

The group consists of a warlock, a sorcerer, a monk, a rogue & a cleric/warlock (now a barbarian).

So after a couple grueling sessions my group of adventurers finally got into the castle.

The sorcerer ( a drunk dwarf ) managed to intimidate the bullywug guards into letting him pass. The bullywugs are very aware he is NOT part of the Cult as he told them he " was just walking around the mere & happened upon this castle ". The cleric/lock got into a fight with bullywugs at the front entrance which had the " alarm log " on top of the barbican going off. This ended up in him being surrounded by bullywugs, & after a not so successful Arms of Hadar he was killed in pretty quick succession. The rest of the group bolted from the area & regrouped by the giant lizard stockades. The warlock sweet talked the bullywug that killed the cleric into letting him in, & our rogue ( halfling ) managed a huge stealth check to literally seal crawl behind the warlock as he walked in. The cleric/lock had a back-up that is literally a barbarian Macho Man Randy Savage ( OHHH YEAAAAH ). So he got quickly introduced & now it's just the monk ( wood elf ) and the barbarian ( goliath ) still outside. The bullywug at the gate who killed the cleric/lock is now wearing said cleric's head on his head & marching about puffed up. The monk & barb try to sweet talk him, but fail. So the barbarian asked if he brought him a crocodile as a trophy if that would suffice. The bullywug agree'd, & they went to kill a giant croc to bring back. Macho Man is now wearing the croc's head as an over-sized helmet & the now impressed bullywug lets him in. Keep in mind, the bullywug's still don't think they are cultists. . . Honestly, I probably shouldn't have let them in, but I was feeling bad at this point.

Now remember, the alarm log has already gone off. The barbican has cultists & bullywugs on alert at this point. A pretty oblivious Dragonclaw sends the team off to the " Unused Chamber " to use for a rest. During this fiasco our rogue rolls a horrid charisma check after coming out of stealth to blend in & gets caught. A villain that I made up earlier in the campaign to hook the party back on track ( Stukhov Firebrand - Human Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer ) takes her away to be questioned. He is a sadist & a coward, so likely torture is coming up. The remaining group finds the drunken dwarf sorcerer wandering around & they go clear out the chamber to rest. To put salt in the wounds the warlock for whatever reason walked into the Grand Hall ( with alllll the treasure on the tables ) fully armed with his weapons drawn. He literally said that he draws his weapons as he enters the room. The 12 cultists & 4 Dragonclaws there were not too happy about that, & were rather suspicious of him walking through. The group decided to go to bed instead of looking for the rogue, so she is definitely being tortured & interrogated through the night. Probably by Stukhov, Rezmir & Borngray... I got her to do some rolls to see how she fares, & she did not fare well.

I feel like the denizens of the castle are going to come to their senses by the next morning/during the night & realize this group does not belong. Especially the higher ranking cultists. It feels like a TPK is around the corner as they are in the belly of the beast.

The party never talked to the lizardfolk & they never had Snapjaw with them as they have a " take no survivors " bloodlust in battles. I've made it very clear that the lizardfolk hate the bullywugs, but they never acted upon it. The lizardfolk actually saw them kill some of the giant lizards, so they probably dislike the group.

Any ideas on how I should proceed? Is a TPK out of the question?

[Laserlight]

I haven't run this module, but I have run a group which, ah, did not exactly think about the consequences of their lack of scouting, lack of planning,lack of coordination, etc. If I were in your shoes, I'd be inclined to say "You're almost certainly going to TPK this session--it would take truly miraculous dice and, frankly, much better tactics and coordination than you have been using lately. Do you want to play things out and see how many of them you take with you, or do you want to skip ahead to the What Went Wrong and roll new characters?"

[ad_hoc]

TPKs should never be out of the question.

HotDQ is a great example of an adventure that balances the 3 pillars.

Social Interaction and some exploration are necessary in the castle.

The party either needs to find the exit ASAP or they need to get the factions warring with each other (and then find the exit).

If they just try to fight as they have been doing then they're going to die.

If death is against the rules then there is no challenge and no victory.

A TPK is not the end of the game. Just make new characters and play a new adventure.

Let them know that things are dangerous. At our table the group does everything they can to avoid combat because they don't want to die.

[Composer99]

Say what you will about Hoard of the Dragon Queen, it's no adventure for murderhoboes.

I do think there may have been one thing you could have done differently, given you've adjusted the adventure to keep the players hooked and assuming you've seen how they "do business", so to speak. That would have been to allow them to come across a lizardfolk, in a situation where combat wasn't reasonably expected, who could have put them onto the possibility of allying with the other lizardfolk against the cult, leaving aside the possibility that they would have simply and immediately slain the lizardfolk in that case.

However, if nothing else the PCs should have known the usual cult passwords and been able to use them to get into the castle without immediately raising the alarm (as long as they weren't seen by the likes of Rezmir).

So, the fact that they willfully did not do so... suggests they're in trouble.

There's nothing wrong with the players' actions leading to a TPK, and there's nothing wrong with you subtly avoiding a TPK - it all depends on how you like to run your games. The more you want to maintain verisimilitude, given four free PCs and one a prisoner against a castle full of enemies alerted to and mobilised against their presence, the more it seems a TPK is the likely option. Well and good.

[Morollan]

I recently finished running this chapter with my group and if they had done what your party did they would all be rolling up new characters. I think they all need to take a step back, examine their character's actions and ask themselves "What would the enemy do in that situation?" because the obvious answer is that they would kill the party.

[DanWardog]

Thanks for the thoughts on this everyone, contemplating a TPK is never fun. I thought I was actually going to get ripped apart on this forum with people telling me how much of a bad DM I am hahahah! :smallbiggrin: I've literally written out a T-Chart of the Good & Bad things that happened getting into the castle to really visualize it ( it weighs heavily on the bad side btw ).

It's actually really unfortunate, cause' they were literally talking at the table about getting the lizardfolk to fight the bullywugs. They decided it was a bad idea, I actually kept hinting that the lizardfolk shoot daggers from their eyes at the bullywugs. They really dislike them :smallfurious: .

Composer99: "However, if nothing else the PCs should have known the usual cult passwords and been able to use them to get into the castle without immediately raising the alarm (as long as they weren't seen by the likes of Rezmir)." One of the characters is still an original character from waaaay back in the Hatchery/Camp outside of Greenest, he would have known the hand signals & phrases to use. Quite a few sessions ago I decided to do less hand holding so I did not mention it to him, maybe that's a bit of my fault :smallsigh: .

We've already had a few deaths in the module so it's nothing new, but no TPK's yet. I'm probably going to tell them out of session that they need to roll new characters, as one of the players is on military leave & I would rather not waste time building characters in his last session. The group is pretty mature so I don't think a TPK will be group breaking, we're all good friends. If I go that route, most likely I will get Stukhov ( the villian I made ) to do it just to give them something to hate :smallamused: .

Now. . . Should I have them go out in a blaze of glory? Or should I temper their hatred for Stukhov & the Cult by having him kill them like a coward?

Oh, also none of the players have joined the Harpers or Order of the Gauntlet to my disappointment. I made it extremely apparent that it is EXTREMELY helpful for info/gear. Did anyone else have this problem? ( Actually one player did join, but he actually died on the road along the Sword Coast.

Cheers!!

[Nagog]

Kill them. If they make terrible decisions, there will be terrible consequences. Think about it this way: Your players are making such decisions because they don't think you'll do it. A TPK means you have to reset back to session 0 with introductions, character hooks, and the like, and that's a lot of work for a DM. Consciously or not, that's the leverage they have against a TPK. However, if they don't all die, these kinds of things will continue. Stupid decisions without consequences breeds stupid characters and stupid players. A TPK will definitely let them know that their actions do have consequences.
Or, you could kill all of them but the rogue that's being tortured. Use them as a plot hook. Give them serious trauma that can manifest in a variety of different ways, as you see fit. Perhaps they have an aversion to blood, so when they draw blood (or somebody nearby draws blood) they make a DC 7 CON or WIS saving throw or be sickened (poisoned) for their next round. Alternately, when they reach an HP total below half their total, they make a DC 15 Wis saving throw or be Frightened of whoever their fighting.

[Keravath]

Overall, I would say they probably won't make it unless they try to exit immediately (i.e. don't finish a long rest, sneak out as soon as it is dark). Too many things are wrong for them to succeed at this point.

The most surprising thing to me is the apparent lack of coordination getting in, the lack of a plan, the really dumb behavior as if they should be able to fight their way out of anything. If you hadn't already had characters previously die I would have had the feeling that the players thought they were well prepared with plot armor and death wasn't going to happen.

1) The sorcerer ( a drunk dwarf ) managed to intimidate the bullywug guards into letting him pass. The bullywugs are very aware he is NOT part of the Cult as he told them he " was just walking around the mere & happened upon this castle ".

- I don't really understand how this occurred. Even if you roll a 20 or 30 on an intimidation check, it doesn't make sense for guards to let a random tourist to walk in. The punishment from their superiors is likely far worse than whatever some random drunken dwarf threatens to do.

2) The cleric/warlock tries to enter on their own. They are surrounded and for some reason killed? Seems to me that the authorities would have preferred a prisoner for information or at least for entertainment.

3) A warlock "sweet talked" a bullywog ... what? These have to be some of the most incompetent guards. Also since there are tons of them around after killing the cleric, I don't see what they could possibly have said to get in ... other than "I am a cult member". It seems to me that anything other than trying to represent themselves as someone who should be there is an auto fail. The guards should be more afraid of their superiors that just asking nicely or intimidating are methods doomed to failure no matter what the character rolls.

4) The halfling rogue uses their ability to hide behind a creature to sneak past the guard behind their party member - awesome use of their abilities. However, what happened to all the other guards? Especially the ones that just killed the cleric/warlock and are now all alert due to the alarm being set off. To anyone else looking their way, the halfling is only hiding from folks on the far side of his party member, everyone else can clearly see him.

5) A couple of characters give the Bullywog a crocodile head as a bribe to get in? Lol Wut?

I think your players need some more imagination than just walking in through the front guarded entrance. I also think that they needed to get a clue, have a plan and a bunch of other stuff.

6) The rogue was with the warlock. How do they come "out of stealth". If they don't have somewhere to hide and can be seen at all then there is no stealth or hiding. He is just a halfling walking around. Why does he need a roll to blend in at all unless there is someone actually watching for folks who don't belong? Why didn't the warlock notice his rogue friend being spotted and hauled off by someone the characters know is likely to torture them? Why didn't the halfling try to run and hide or did they and fail?

7) Warlock walks into a treasure room containing 12 cultists and 4 Dragon claws, wanders around, and is not challenged by the guards of the room?! A stranger, wandering around with weapons out, in a room where they shouldn't be, with no good explanation, and gets ignored? Should have been either death #2 or prisoner #2 right there.

8) The party, wandering around a castle that is now on alert due to alarms, let in by some idiotic guards who are likely to be questioned since the rogue has been captured if not for many other reasons, for some reason decide it is safe to take a long rest, in some room that one of the enemies pointed them to, and leave their buddy the rogue on their own for the night.


Honestly, I have no problem with a TPK if the character take actions that lead to that result. I try to avoid TPKs just due to the luck of the dice. Having everyone fail a save for hypnotic pattern is an automatic TPK unless I change the narrative ... so I would change the narrative, the bad guys take prisoners and give the characters a chance. Player rushes into attack against overwhelming odds ... heroes death and rolls a new character.

However, looking at the events in the campaign, the characters seem to get away with outrageous actions that should have had consequences long before the end .. if those actions had had meaningful consequences the party wouldn't be waking up in a room surrounded by cultists about to subdue and torture these obviously idiotic and clueless adventurers.

- the party needed a plan to get by the guards - one by one is a bad idea - the DM could hint at this but the demise of the cleric/warlock should have made it quite clear
- are there other entrances? If the module doesn't have one, the DM could consider adding something (sewers, waste water, underground water source, escape tunnels ...) if the party isn't up to dealing with the guards.
- the party gets inside and wanders around? Do they even know why they are there? Did they walk in waiting to get attacked or what? Did the DM give them some guidance
- if one of the character would actually know some of the cultist passwords or other behaviors because of something that is part of their background or from play a long time ago, the DM might need to gently remind the player and party about options


Anyway, whether it TPKs or not isn't the DMs fault at this point ... but it seems to me that the significant plot armor and lack of consequences to some of the characters actions getting into this place is pretty much what got them into this mess in the first place.

[DanWardog]

Keravath,

I should probably be a bit more clear about this: This campaign started with a more serious tone, I wanted it to be pretty serious. The players started to act a bit more silly & were having fun, so I leaned into it.

I agree I gave them way too much plot armor, that's %100 my fault. We spent nearly two two sessions in front of this castle & I just started letting things fly. I didn't want to be blunt with the lizardfolk coming up to them to talk, so instead I hinted at the animosity between the factions a few times.

The sorcerer: Allowing the dwarf to get through via high intimidation roll was a big mistake on my part. You are totally right, I should have just made a different entrance & improvised something a bit more sensible.

The cleric/lock: started casting offensive spells while the bullywugs were trying to apprehend him, the initial plan was to straight up capture him. After trying to kill them all with an AoE spell they took his life instead.

The warlock: sweet talking his way through... these bullywugs are pretty stupid ( at least I portrayed them this way with that -2 int ). He ended up talking about how tough the bullywugs are & how he would love to fight for them even going so far as calling the bullywug who killed the cleric " King of Bullywugs " which actually made the bullywug nervous & a bit scared of Pharblex perhaps hearing about it. As soon as he stepped in the room & all the cultists look at him he immediately backed out, it was an extremely awkward situation that I should have acted on a bit more.

The rogue: That was more of the silly side of things letting that slide past the bullywugs, as soon as the bullywugs were beside the warlock they should have seen the halfling just crawling through the muck. I figured after getting past the bullywugs ( again I played them as pretty dull creatures ) the cultists would be a bit more suspicious of the players as they were on alert. I thought back to the camp/hatchery when they had to pass charisma rolls & I went with that.

Barb & Monk: Yeah that was plain stupid hahahaha! I felt bad for them & just wanted them in the castle so no one else is stuck waiting. It ended up being entertaining for everyone at the table, so that was nice at least. I have zero excuses here :smalleek:

When it comes to the guidance & the reason why they are there. I have to blame my party for that, which makes me feel terrible. I've given them tons of information & I even gave out empty notebooks for people to use to keep track of things. The only person who seems to remember anything is the stoner with bad memory. . . lol.

I appreciate the criticism Keravath! Going ahead I definitely need to stop slapping on the plot armor, & give more consequences for actions even the smaller ones. This has been my first campaign DMing so there has been a lot of learning down the road.

Cheers!

[Morollan]

For what it's worth, in my opinion this episode can be pretty tricky to navigate. There are only a couple of viable options for infiltrating the castle - a) pretending to be cultists, or b) turning the lizardfolk against the bullywugs. In my game, the party went for option b), having struck a deal with Snapjaw that his guys would take out the bullywugs if the party dealt with the cultists. I took a long look at the castle map and noted where the lizardfolk were, where the bullywugs were etc, who would be alerted by a fight in a particular area, what the leaders (Spattergoo and Borngray) would do etc and conducted the session against the backdrop of all these conflicts without the party really getting involved in the lizardfolk/bullywug fights. They were able to do their own thing and managed to take out lots of cultists and spot the leaders heading into the underground caverns, where a fairly epic fight ensued. It was a lot of fun!

Perhaps a TPK followed by a reroll of new characters and a reintroduction to Snapjaw might lead to better luck second time around?

[Safety Sword]

In the end, we all learn from a TPK :)

If you do kill them all, just be sure to debrief them and let them know what they missed, potential solutions and why they're currently being strung up as a warning to others.

I have a feeling my party might try attacking a 2000 year old blue dragon in my next session and we might need a new campaign after that. :smalleek:

My number one piece of DM advice is this: Your job is to create problems for the party, not solutions. Let them try things their way but don't ever give them a free pass.

Decisions have consequences. :smallamused:

[DanWardog]

Implementing more consequences is a good plan. I think a big problem is that the ones I have given to the players aren't serious enough. Hmmm, I think I will make Snapjaw appeaer by himself to the party. Otherwise my party will murder the hell outta' him. Hahaha