True Polymorph Clarification - Retain class?

[Hobbo Jim]

When a person is true polymorphed, do they retain all of their class features?

For example, if a level 17 fighter is turned into a Planetar, do they still get to do 4 attacks, and use action surge? Or would they be considered to strictly use the stat block?

The wording that confuses me is "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions."

A planitar has multiattack, and can thus swing twice. It doesn't say that it is incapable of attacking more times, and there is no reason to suggest that it couldn't with the proper training, but I'm unsure.

Same seems to go for spells - If I Tpolymorphed a sorcerer into a hag, would they still have all of their spells available? In addition to the Hag's? On that note, night hags can use Plane Shift 2/day, could the sorcerer affect that with metamagic if they didn't originally have the spell?

True polymorph has always been one of those complicated spells for me that make me struggle with its nuances.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Huh, that's a good question. I always assumed no, simply 'cause whenever myself or someone else polymorphs, we just get handed a new stat sheet. That might be a house rule thing to prevent someone from True Polymorphing permanently into a Brass Dragon who's also a 20th level wizard and not having to deal with any consequences due to the dragon shifting ability.

I'd still personally lean towards no, but it doesn't seem like there's any rules based reason to not allow it, though there might be questions if the fighter's training with attacking quickly with martial weapons really translates if you turn into a T-Rex and bite people.

Sounds like an "ask your dm" thing.

[NNescio]

When a person is true polymorphed, do they retain all of their class features?

For example, if a level 17 fighter is turned into a Planetar, do they still get to do 4 attacks, and use action surge? Or would they be considered to strictly use the stat block?

The wording that confuses me is "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions."

A planitar has multiattack, and can thus swing twice. It doesn't say that it is incapable of attacking more times, and there is no reason to suggest that it couldn't with the proper training, but I'm unsure.

Same seems to go for spells - If I Tpolymorphed a sorcerer into a hag, would they still have all of their spells available? In addition to the Hag's? On that note, night hags can use Plane Shift 2/day, could the sorcerer affect that with metamagic if they didn't originally have the spell?

True polymorph has always been one of those complicated spells for me that make me struggle with its nuances.


Huh, that's a good question. I always assumed no, simply 'cause whenever myself or someone else polymorphs, we just get handed a new stat sheet. That might be a house rule thing to prevent someone from True Polymorphing permanently into a Brass Dragon who's also a 20th level wizard and not having to deal with any consequences due to the dragon shifting ability.

I'd still personally lean towards no, but it doesn't seem like there's any rules based reason to not allow it, though there might be questions if the fighter's training with attacking quickly with martial weapons really translates if you turn into a T-Rex and bite people.

Sounds like an "ask your dm" thing.

You don't. Spell doesn't say you do, so you don't.

Most shapechanging effects contain language saying you use the statistics (i.e. statblock) of the new form, except for certain exceptions that are explicitly called out.

For example, Shapechange and the Druid's Wild Shape class feature contain explicit language saying "you retain the benefit of any features from your class". True Polymorph (and regular Polymorph), on the other hand, contains no such proviso. Ergo you lose your class features (because your statblock gets temporarily overwritten by the new creature's).

[Sariel Vailo]

The main take away always has to be ask your DM.
If they do then you do if they say that you don't your don't.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

For example, Shapechange and the Druid's Wild Shape class feature contain explicit language saying "you retain the benefit of any features from your class". True Polymorph (and regular Polymorph), on the other hand, contains no such proviso. Ergo you lose your class features (because your statblock gets temporarily overwritten by the new creature's).

Good point. If that was the default, Shapechange and Wild Shape wouldn't need to have an extra line that True Polymorph lacks.

[BarneyBent]

RAW, no. However, if I were DM and somebody permanently True Polymorphed into an appropriate form, I’d allow someone to start taking class levels, at level 1 of course. Getting enough XP to get back towards the higher levels of spellcasting shouldn’t be too difficult.

I would also definitely allow Wish to grant the benefits of True Polymorph while retaining class levels, but with the risks associated.

[darknite]

In my game, NO. You don't get to be a 20th level Paladin oyster. You become the creature, pure and simple, until the duration runs out, you are 'killed' or someone casts a different Polymorph or successful Dispel Magic on you. Shapechange allows you to retain class abilities and it's a 9th level spell.

[Sariel Vailo]

My current DM is allowing me to do it so long as I only use it to maintain humanoid forms. Such as goblin to tiefling.

[firelistener]

I would say yes as DM. A planetar has all the necessary limbs and such for the character to act as their class, so sure thing. I'd only give a player access to new spells in a polymorph if they were innate magic spells though. You can't polymorph into another wizard to learn all his spells because you only gain instinctual knowledge like how to swim like a fish or breathe fire as a dragon.

[Chaos Jackal]

No.

It's a Polymorph spell. The statistics of the target are replaced with those of the creature he's transformed in. It's right there in the spell description.

It is, after all, still a Polymorph spell. That's its purpose, else you'd have cardboard boxes or beetles with Paladin auras, if used on enemies, or Planetars with 20 class levels if used on allies.

There's some lines in the spell that might confuse, but luckily there's even some Sage Advice on the matter.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/02/12/does-a-wizard-retains-all-his-casting-abilities-class-features-feats-after-casting-true-polymorph/

[Keravath]

Rules as written the answer is NO - you don't retain anything - you BECOME the new creature when polymorphed. Polymorph and shapechange are completely different.

From True Polymorph:

"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality."

The target's game statistics ... which includes class, level, stats, and all other abilities are REPLACED by the statistics of the new form. You don't get to add a Planetar abilities to your 20th level fighter abilities. You become a planetar and replace everthing you are except your alignment and personality with the abilities of your new form.

If you are polymorphed, you take the stats of the new form and none of your abilities carry over.


On the other hand, the Shapechange spell or druid wild shape have the following type of wording:

"You assume the form of a different creature for the duration. The new form can be of any creature with
a challenge rating equal to your level or lower."

"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your
alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving
throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you
and the bonus listed in its statistics is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus in place of yours. You can't use
any legendary actions or lair actions of the new form."

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so. You can't use any special senses you have (for example, darkvision) unless your new form also has that sense. You can only speak if the creature can normally speak."

So .. if you are SHAPECHANGED into another creature, in general, your class/race/feat abilities are retained and added to those of the new creature (there is a reason this is a ninth level spell) while if you are polymorphed they are NOT.

[Sariel Vailo]

Just because their is a sage advice doesn't mean every DM has to listen especially for home games just because Jeremy says what is adventure league legal doesn't mean I can't do things how I want at my home games.

The DM is in control of their campaign not raw but rai.especially with the idea that not every plane of existence does not have the same magic system. To where true polymorph can't do that. Not every place has a weave or weave equivalent. Remember if your having fun and the DM is having fun that's what matters.

The rules as interpreted and implemented are part of your home games. Talk to your dms, to find out whether or not true polymorph fucntions in the capacity asked about by the op.Because unless Jeremy Crawford is going to break into your home sessions and smack you like Ben Shapiro I think it's up to you and your friends.

[Keravath]

Just because their is a sage advice doesn't mean every DM has to listen especially for home games just because Jeremy says what is adventure league legal doesn't mean I can't do things how I want at my home games.

The DM is in control of their campaign not raw but rai.especially with the idea that not every plane of existence does not have the same magic system. To where true polymorph can't do that. Not every place has a weave or weave equivalent. Remember if your having fun and the DM is having fun that's what matters.

The rules as interpreted and implemented are part of your home games. Talk to your dms, to find out whether or not true polymorph fucntions in the capacity asked about by the op.Because unless Jeremy Crawford is going to break into your home sessions and smack you like Ben Shapiro I think it's up to you and your friends.

Yep, this is always, absolutely true. Home games can be run using whatever variation of the rules that the DM prefers to use (though it is usually a good idea to make sure that information is shared with the players).

However, if someone asks in a forum how something works in D&D, they aren't asking "how does my DM run this" since they would just ask their DM. The only common shared basis any of us has for the rules of the games are the books as published. So when someone asks on this forum, "How does this work?", they mean how does it work as written, and not how any particular DM chooses to run it.

(By the way, the latest sage advice made it quite clear, that as far as rules interpretations go, JCs tweets are just how another (very experienced) DM would choose to run things and not any sort of rule. The Adventurers League documentation clearly states that a DM isn't bound by tweets in terms of how they interpret the rules .. they just have to run them as written and if something is ambiguous then the AL DM gets to decide for the game they are currently playing).

Anyway, in this case, the Polymorph spell makes it clear that the creatures game statistics are replaced by those for the creature they are polymorphed into with only alignment and personality retained. A DM is completely free to play however they like but in terms of what the rules say that is the answer to the question. A polymorphed creature does not retain its class, or anything else except alignment and personality. (There is even some argument as to whether personality includes memory ... which makes things even more challenging for a polymorphed creature :) ).

[GlenSmash!]

Good point. If that was the default, Shapechange and Wild Shape wouldn't need to have an extra line that True Polymorph lacks.

Yup, if Polymorph or True Polymorph allowed retention of class Shapechange and Wildshape are seriously devalued.

[Sariel Vailo]

Than he should not be asking the forum first DM always.

[NNescio]

Than he should not be asking the forum first DM always.

Yes, sure, nobody should ask anything on this forum, because only the DM's word matters.

[Hobbo Jim]

Than he should not be asking the forum first DM always.

But what if I'm the DM trying to decide how I want to run it? :smallconfused:

Also, as a player I appreciate the sentiment and understand that the DM has the final call on everything, but it's nice to know if I'm asking "Hey, this is RAW but seems strong, I want to double check that it's allowed" vs "Hey, this isn't RAW, would you be willing to make an exception because fun?" Plus it's just nice to know what other people outside of my group think. Hence the purpose of a forum.

The reason I'm asking is because my DM did allow it previously, but neither of us were sure exactly how it worked. It being my spell, as a player I think it should be my job to know how a spell works, so now I can bring this to his attention and re-discuss whether or not it would work.


To the rest of the crowd, I wasn't aware of the difference in wording between Polymorph and Shapechange/druids, so that's definitely clarifying. JC's tweet helps, and while I usually take it with a grain of salt it his call seems in line with everything else. I appreciate the clarity! That said, I don't think I'd be too worried about beetles and boxes with auras, since mental stats get replaced too. A paladin beetle with +0 charisma won't have much of an aura.

As a side note, does that mean you could never turn yourself into an inanimate object, since it would essentially incapacitate you, ending concentration?

[NNescio]

As a side note, does that mean you could never turn yourself into an inanimate object, since it would essentially incapacitate you, ending concentration?

Probably? Think most DMs would rule it that way. RAW it gets kinda... undefined though, since nothing says you are incapacitated, an object by definition cannot be incapacitated (conditions only apply to creatures), and nothing says an object can't concentrate on a spell. (But trying to use these to justify "still being able to concentrate" will likely earn the player a DMG to the face.)

In any case, you can still use an upcasted Glyph if you want to turn yourself into a sandwich for some reason.

[JackPhoenix]

In any case, you can still use an upcasted Glyph if you want to turn yourself into a sandwich for some reason.

Where do you get the 2nd level 9 spell slot required to create level 9 spell glyph?

[NNescio]

Where do you get the 2nd level 9 spell slot required to create level 9 spell glyph?

Obviously you take Boon of High Magic or Spell Recall. Or use a scroll. :smalltongue:

(Actually I goofed up and forgot the 'simulcast' requirement. :smallredface:)

[Finback]

as DM, I'd allow it, perhaps with some caveats - if your new form has a different form of attack, such as a multiattack, it might be a compromise eg Multiattack - bite/claw/claw would take up three of your four attack actions, OR you could use your sword four times.

I'd also allow it because I've done it for NPCs - I've given dragons wizard slots, or ranger slots on a specialist illithid, to represent them having learned new skills as intelligent entities. There's no reason a dragon couldn't have bardic skills of performance, especially when you consider some dragons have been able to change shape into humanoid races and lived amongst them.

[NNescio]

as DM, I'd allow it, perhaps with some caveats - if your new form has a different form of attack, such as a multiattack, it might be a compromise eg Multiattack - bite/claw/claw would take up three of your four attack actions, OR you could use your sword four times.

Multiattack (capitalized) is one action. The Attack action (again capitalized) is another action. Extra Attack lets one make multiple attacks (not the Attack action!) when taking the Attack action on your turn.

(Attacks and the Attack action are different things!)

This is important for considering interactions with other game effects that specify either the Attack action or attack(s) [lowercase], which work differently. Notably, one cannot substitute grapple/shoves when taking the Multiattack action, because grapple/shoving explicitly calls out using the Attack action.

This is completely unlike 3.X iteratives.

(Of course, as DM you can rule differently. I just saw fit to correct the potential misconception because a lot of people get confused similarly.)

[Aussiehams]

I think the key with true polymorph if the DM doesn't let you keep class features/spell casting is Ancient Brass Dragon -> Solo Tarrasque-> Ancient Brass Dragon with 14 class levels of your choice. Then profit.

[Grondsmash]

When a person is true polymorphed, do they retain all of their class features?

For example, if a level 17 fighter is turned into a Planetar, do they still get to do 4 attacks, and use action surge? Or would they be considered to strictly use the stat block?

The wording that confuses me is "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it canÂ’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions."

A planetar has multiattack, and can thus swing twice. It doesn't say that it is incapable of attacking more times, and there is no reason to suggest that it couldn't with the proper training, but I'm unsure.

Same seems to go for spells - If I True Polymorphed a sorcerer into a hag, would they still have all of their spells available? In addition to the Hag's? On that note, night hags can use Plane Shift 2/day, could the sorcerer affect that with metamagic if they didn't originally have the spell?

True polymorph has always been one of those complicated spells for me that make me struggle with its nuances.

Although the phrase "It retains its alignment and personality." should include your class level, subclass, feats and life experiences, as these are what has formed your alignment and personality. to not have them sounds pretty stupid, but there are really petty people who DM and rule on such stuff. They want you to act like that person, without ay of the things that made you that person. Pretty weird logic they want you to believe.

There is a semi-simple solution for this, the 5th level Modify Memory spell. Best to prep a written list of Class/Sub-class, their abilities, your highest level of spell ability & highest level and number of spell slots, list of feats and any relevant choices (like fire for Elemental Adept), list of major events you were part of and list of friends, enemies and significant acquaintances you know. The spell specifically says “…its mind fills in any gaps in the details of your description.” So, have a friend cast it, read off the list, hold the spell for 1 minute, and all those things are recalled, your mind fills in the gaps (not hard as you lived them), and "POOF!" you are restored. For qualifying for the spell, the 6 second event of the changing at casting qualifies, if you cast this spell after the initial hour (so it is permanent) but before 24 hours expires, it will be within 24 hours and they will "allow the target to recall the event (the losing of their memories and abilities in 6 seconds) with perfect clarity and exacting detail" while “its mind fills in any gaps in the details of your description.”

[Sigreid]

RAW, no. However, if I were DM and somebody permanently True Polymorphed into an appropriate form, I’d allow someone to start taking class levels, at level 1 of course. Getting enough XP to get back towards the higher levels of spellcasting shouldn’t be too difficult.

I would also definitely allow Wish to grant the benefits of True Polymorph while retaining class levels, but with the risks associated.
The first part if this is one of the things I'm looking at for epic level play. Along with being able to take another class and level it up, with the caviat that HD and spell slots cap out at level 20.

[KorvinStarmast]

When a person is true polymorphed, do they retain all of their class features?

For example, if a level 17 fighter is turned into a Planetar, do they still get to do 4 attacks, and use action surge? Or would they be considered to strictly use the stat block?

The wording that confuses me is "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions."

A planitar has multiattack, and can thus swing twice. It doesn't say that it is incapable of attacking more times, and there is no reason to suggest that it couldn't with the proper training, but I'm unsure.

Same seems to go for spells - If I Tpolymorphed a sorcerer into a hag, would they still have all of their spells available? In addition to the Hag's? On that note, night hags can use Plane Shift 2/day, could the sorcerer affect that with metamagic if they didn't originally have the spell?

True polymorph has always been one of those complicated spells for me that make me struggle with its nuances.
You seem to be confusing Shapechange with True Polymorph.
The former leaves you with class skills, the latter does not.


If you TP a sorcerer into a hag then the character being played has the hag's spellcasting feature and spells known.
"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions."
For the duration of the spell, the sorcerer play off of the hag's stat sheet.
Or the young dragon's stat sheet.
Or the Umber Hulk's stat sheet.
Or the Mammoth's stat sheet.
Or the succubus' stat sheet.

Depends on what you TP them into.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy