Upcast Major Image - question on duration

[Monster Manuel]

Duration on Major Image is 10 minutes, but when upcast using a spell slot of 6th level or better, it "lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration".

Does that mean the spell is permanent, until someone comes along and dispells it? Or that it retains its' 10 minute duration, just no longer using up concentration?

On the one hand, if that was the intended effect, it should say so. Since the description says nothing specific about changing the duration, by default it should remain at 10 minutes.

On the other hand, in previous editions (3.5/pathfinder), Permanent Illusion was a 6th level spell, which doesn't exist in 5e and would be superfluous when compared to Major Image. Reading into the RAI, it would seem that this upcasting option is meant to take the place of the Permanent version of the spell. An Illusion that lasts until dispelled isn't overpowered when compared to other 6th level spells.

I'm inclined to go with the Other Hand, but is there some "official" take on this?

[Contrast]

It's permanent until dispelled, like it says. See Simulacrum as an example - 'until dispelled' is the new duration of the spell.

[NNescio]

Duration on Major Image is 10 minutes, but when upcast using a spell slot of 6th level or better, it "lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration".

Does that mean the spell is permanent, until someone comes along and dispells it? Or that it retains its' 10 minute duration, just no longer using up concentration?

On the one hand, if that was the intended effect, it should say so. Since the description says nothing specific about changing the duration, by default it should remain at 10 minutes.

On the other hand, in previous editions (3.5/pathfinder), Permanent Illusion was a 6th level spell, which doesn't exist in 5e and would be superfluous when compared to Major Image. Reading into the RAI, it would seem that this upcasting option is meant to take the place of the Permanent version of the spell. An Illusion that lasts until dispelled isn't overpowered when compared to other 6th level spells.

I'm inclined to go with the Other Hand, but is there some "official" take on this?

"(Lasts) until dispelled" and "permanent" mean the same thing.

[Keravath]

However, keep in mind that folks can still see through it with an appropriate successful investigation check. It then changes appearance for them but won't go away.

You can also use your action to make it move so you could create a permanent illusion of a giant and use your action to make it follow you around. Anyone who physically interacts with it determines it is an illusion. Others can use an investigation check using their action however from a role playing point of view they should have some sort of reason to doubt that the image is real before making that check.

If you are an illusionist and get the malleable illusion ability at 6th level then you can potentially have one or more permanent illusions sitting available that you change to be what you need when you need them without using any spell slots. At 14th level you can make parts of these illusions real.

Much of this depends on some cooperation from the DM, it all works RAW but some DMs can be pretty fickle about illusions.

[Monster Manuel]

Thanks...sounds like my preferred interpenetration is the one most of us agree is correct, so that's good.


It's permanent until dispelled, like it says. See Simulacrum as an example - 'until dispelled' is the new duration of the spell.
you know, I never noticed until now that "permanent" isn't a duration anymore. That makes the wording a lot clearer. What they SHOULD have said was "duration changes to 'until dispelled', rather than "lasts until dispelled", but given that there's precedent with other spells that use that term to mean more-or-less-permanent, that makes sense.



"(Lasts) until dispelled" and "permanent" mean the same thing.
I'm not sure it does, though. Otherwise they would have just said "permanent" for all the spells that are effectively permanent. Like, casting a Simulacrum creates an effect that lasts until dispelled. concentrating on a Wall of Stone for the entire duration makes it Permanent. The implication being that a Permanent effect can not be dispelled, while a "duration = until dispelled" can.

Maybe that's why they used the terminology that they did...so they don't have to have the awkward discussion of "Permanent, except for..."

[NNescio]

TI'm not sure it does, though. Otherwise they would have just said "permanent" for all the spells that are effectively permanent. Like, casting a Simulacrum creates an effect that lasts until dispelled. concentrating on a Wall of Stone for the entire duration makes it Permanent. The implication being that a Permanent effect can not be dispelled, while a "duration = until dispelled" can.

Maybe that's why they used the terminology that they did...so they don't have to have the awkward discussion of "Permanent, except for..."

Wall of Stone contains specific language saying it 'becomes permanent and can't be dispelled" (note the use of the coordinating conjunction). Other effects like True Polymorph, Magic Aura, Private Sanctum, et al. do not. The latter spells can hence be Dispelled.

Sage Advice Compendium further supports this point:


Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they no longer considered magical effects once permanent? If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled, unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of stone spell).

[Monster Manuel]

Wall of Stone contains specific language saying it 'becomes permanent and can't be dispelled" (note the use of the coordinating conjunction). Other effects like True Polymorph, Magic Aura, Private Sanctum, et al. do not. The latter spells can hence be Dispelled.

Sage Advice Compendium further supports this point:

Well, there you go, then. That's about as clear as it gets.

Does make me wonder why they drew a distinction between "permanent" and "lasts until dispelled". But for all intents and purposes, it looks like they are identical.

Thanks for the info.

[Contrast]

you know, I never noticed until now that "permanent" isn't a duration anymore. That makes the wording a lot clearer. What they SHOULD have said was "duration changes to 'until dispelled', rather than "lasts until dispelled", but given that there's precedent with other spells that use that term to mean more-or-less-permanent, that makes sense.

The wording is actually pretty consistent with other spells which extend the duration - see Hex as an example. As a general rule when writing the rules for 5E if they had a choice between absolute clarity or writing in everyday vernacular, they chose everyday vernacular.