Best pairing on a lv. 10 character with rogue and another multi-attack class...

[samcifer]

So with the high mortality rate in the campaigns I'm playing, I'm thinking of making a rogue character as a backup for when (not if) my current character dies. I want to play a swashbuckler rogue with another class that grants a second attack per turn to free up the bonus action for Cunning action. I'm leaning towards monk, but wonder if a different class would work better.

We'll have a set starting stat block of 18, 16, 16, 15, 14, and 12 before racial bonuses. The theme of this campaign is various underworld/afterlife realms as we work to gather 14 pieces of a magical locket to thwart the return of an evil god. So far we've done hades, Camelot (as an afterlife realm) and a Japanese underworld.

Is monk the best way to go or would a different class work better? I'd take that other class to level 5 (6 if fighter) and Swashbuckler rogue for the rest.

[Reevh]

Hexblade is extremely solid for the rogue. You get to wear a shield, get hexblade's curse, hex for easy fights and shadow blade for harder ones, plus the Shield spell, booming blade if playing a single attacking variant (pact of the tome or chain), or multi-attack if pact of the blade (after level 5). Bonus, if you go Arcane Trickster, you get bonus spell slots for Shield, Shadow Blade, and Hex.

If you go Pact of the Chain, you can have your imp familiar give you advantage on every attack. If you're an elf with Elven Accuracy, that means every attack you roll 3d20 and keep the highest. For targets affected by your Hexblade's Curse, you have a whopping 27.1% crit chance, every round, on an attack that does booming blade damage, weapon damage, sneak attack damage, and either hex damage or shadowblade damage.

And you'll have a bonkers AC to go with all that, along with a lot of great rogue goodies. It's kinda broken powerful.

With a 3 Hexblade/7 Swashbuckler with 20 DEX, against a hexblade's curse enemy, with shadowblade up and using your imp to get advantage (if not in dim light), you'd do 3d8+5+4+4d6 damage per round, with a nearly 30% chance to do 6d8+5+4+8d6 damage, and another 2d8 if the target moves. The Booming Blade cantrip then increases by a d8 at level 11 for even more damage.

Without magic armor, you'd have 19 AC just from your studded leather and shield, and you could cast shield to bring that up to 24 AC. Easier if you're an Arcane Trickster instead of a Swashbuckler, of course. If you take the invocation that gives you permanent mage armor, you need wear no armor at all, and would have a 20 base AC / 25 with shield.

If you're dead set on that extra attack, you could do 5 Hexblade / 5 Rogue. You'd do 2*(2d8+5)+5d6 damage, though unless it's dim light and you have shadowblade up, your crit chance would go to 10% and your miss chance would go up dramatically. Still, this is excellent damage as well, and gives you more hexblade invocations to play with and higher level warlock spell slots.

[samcifer]

Hexblade is extremely solid for the rogue. You get to wear a shield, get hexblade's curse, hex for easy fights and shadow blade for harder ones, plus the Shield spell, booming blade if playing a single attacking variant (pact of the tome or chain), or multi-attack if pact of the blade (after level 5). Bonus, if you go Arcane Trickster, you get bonus spell slots for Shield, Shadow Blade, and Hex.

If you go Pact of the Chain, you can have your imp familiar give you advantage on every attack. If you're an elf with Elven Accuracy, that means every attack you roll 3d20 and keep the highest. For targets affected by your Hexblade's Curse, you have a whopping 27.1% crit chance, every round, on an attack that does booming blade damage, weapon damage, sneak attack damage, and either hex damage or shadowblade damage.

And you'll have a bonkers AC to go with all that, along with a lot of great rogue goodies. It's kinda broken powerful.

With a 3 Hexblade/7 Swashbuckler with 20 DEX, against a hexblade's curse enemy, with shadowblade up and using your imp to get advantage (if not in dim light), you'd do 3d8+5+4+4d6 damage per round, with a nearly 30% chance to do 6d8+5+4+8d6 damage, and another 2d8 if the target moves. The Booming Blade cantrip then increases by a d8 at level 11 for even more damage.

Without magic armor, you'd have 19 AC just from your studded leather and shield, and you could cast shield to bring that up to 24 AC. Easier if you're an Arcane Trickster instead of a Swashbuckler, of course. If you take the invocation that gives you permanent mage armor, you need wear no armor at all, and would have a 20 base AC / 25 with shield.

If you're dead set on that extra attack, you could do 5 Hexblade / 5 Rogue. You'd do 2*(2d8+5)+5d6 damage, though unless it's dim light and you have shadowblade up, your crit chance would go to 10% and your miss chance would go up dramatically. Still, this is excellent damage as well, and gives you more hexblade invocations to play with and higher level warlock spell slots.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. I'd want more spell slots than that, though, if I were to mix with a casting class. That's the one thing I hate most about warlocks.

[Blood of Gaea]

Yeah, I was thinking that too. I'd want more spell slots than that, though, if I were to mix with a casting class. That's the one thing I hate most about warlocks.
Go for Draconic Sorcerer instead then. You still get a buffed AC, blade cantrips, and potentially metamagics to work with.

You could combine it with Arcane Trickster to bump your spellslots up.

[samcifer]

Go for Draconic Sorcerer instead then. You still get a buffed AC, blade cantrips, and potentially metamagics to work with.

You could combine it with Arcane Trickster to bump your spellslots up.

That was one of my first thoughts, but sorcs lack an extra attack outside of quickening BB or GFB as a bonus action. What about Eldritch Knight if I were to focus upon spells that don't require saving throws or attack rolls such as Shield, Magic Missile and such?

[Reevh]

Yeah, I was thinking that too. I'd want more spell slots than that, though, if I were to mix with a casting class. That's the one thing I hate most about warlocks.

Well if you were a 7 Arcane Trickster / 3 Hexblade, you'd have 4 level 1 slots, 2 level 2 slots, and 2 level 2 slots that refresh on short rest. That's plenty to be a combat badass for a full day of adventuring. This would be a single attack build, but that's fine when your chance to miss an AC 18 opponent at level 10 is only 10%.

[samcifer]

Well if you were a 7 Arcane Trickster / 3 Hexblade, you'd have 4 level 1 slots, 2 level 2 slots, and 2 level 2 slots that refresh on short rest. That's plenty to be a combat badass for a full day of adventuring.

But wouldn't that make it harder to get sneak attack damage? That's why I was thinking of going swashbuckler, to make getting SA damage easier and extra attack for a second chance at it if my first attack misses.

Also, Pact of the chain would be worthless as this dm hates players having familiars and targets them in horrible ways. He once ruled that I broke the neck of my owl petting him gently. This was the third time in the campaign during 2 sessions in a row where my owl died, so I gave up on having a familiar. Fortunately, the campaign was abandoned a few sessions later when he got tired of running it (he ended it in mid-battle, no less).

[Reevh]

But wouldn't that make it harder to get sneak attack damage? That's why I was thinking of going swashbuckler, to make getting SA damage easier and extra attack for a second chance at it if my first attack misses.

Also, Pact of the chain would be worthless as this dm hates players having familiars and targets them in horrible ways. He once ruled that I broke the neck of my owl petting him gently. This was the third time in the campaign during 2 sessions in a row where my owl died, so I gave up on having a familiar. Fortunately, the campaign was abandoned a few sessions later when he got tired of running it (he ended it in mid-battle, no less).

OK, forget pact of the chain then. Pact of the Tome is also quite good, and if you have shadow blade up (and you have 4 level 2 spell slots to do it, 2 of which refresh on short rest), and if it's dim light or darkness, which is common in D&D, you'll still have triple advantage. Here's what that looks like in terms of chance to hit at level 10:

https://anydice.com/program/11b35

You have a pretty damn good chance to get your sneak attack.

All that said, this is a power build, and a DM who doesn't like you to have a familiar will almost certainly not want your character to be this powerful. So you're possibly better off building something a little more down to earth. My table isn't a great place to do this sort of powergamey stuff for the most part, so I probably wouldn't use a build like this for a campaign. I'd save it for a one shot that's intended to be extra difficult.

[Crgaston]

Just a standard Battlemaster 5/ Rogue 5 build would be my suggestion. Take Dueling and use a shield. You've got the stats for 2 feats. Take Sentinel for off turn Sneak Attack, and maybe Shield Master? Expertise Athletics if you do.

Sentinel if they attack your buddy. If they attack you, Uncanny Dodge if they hit you, Riposte for another way to get off-turn Sneak Attack if they miss. You'll be beastly, but your individual attacks won't seem over the top.

Ranger is another excellent choice if you want some casting, 2 attacks, a Fighting Style, and another skill.

EDIT:

Mountain Dwarf
BM5/Swash5
20/15/18/12/16/14

Take Sentinel at F4, MAM at R4, and Squat Nimbleness at F6 to get your Dex to 16, another skill, Advantage to escape grapples, and 30' move speed. Go Rogue afterwards.

Expertise Athletics and Perception or Stealth. You'll get 2 more at Rogue 6.

Your Short Sword will be dealing out (1d6+7) x2, plus another 3d6 for SA. You can get another 4d6+7 most rounds with good tactics and a bit of luck.

You can have an AC of 20 with half plate and a shield with no disadvantage on stealth.

You can throw daggers for ranged SA and either Trip Attack to give your allies Advantage on a prone opponent or Goading Attack so the enemy has disadvantage on your allies.

You'll have a +5 to Initiative (switch Wis and Con for +6, but I'd prioritize Perception and Wis saves, personally).

Honestly, you could make this work with any race with the stats you have.

Have fun!

[samcifer]

Just a standard Battlemaster 5/ Rogue 5 build would be my suggestion. Take Dueling and use a shield. You've got the stats for 2 feats. Take Sentinel for off turn Sneak Attack, and maybe Shield Master? Expertise Athletics if you do.

Sentinel if they attack your buddy. If they attack you, Uncanny Dodge if they hit you, Riposte for another way to get off-turn Sneak Attack if they miss. You'll be beastly, but your individual attacks won't seem over the top.

Ranger is another excellent choice if you want some casting, 2 attacks, a Fighting Style, and another skill.

EDIT:

Mountain Dwarf
BM5/Swash5
20/15/18/12/16/14

Take Sentinel at F4, MAM at R4, and Squat Nimbleness at F6 to get your Dex to 16, another skill, Advantage to escape grapples, and 30' move speed. Go Rogue afterwards.

Expertise Athletics and Perception or Stealth. You'll get 2 more at Rogue 6.

Your Short Sword will be dealing out (1d6+7) x2, plus another 3d6 for SA. You can get another 4d6+7 most rounds with good tactics and a bit of luck.

You can have an AC of 20 with half plate and a shield with no disadvantage on stealth.

You can throw daggers for ranged SA and either Trip Attack to give your allies Advantage on a prone opponent or Goading Attack so the enemy has disadvantage on your allies.

You'll have a +5 to Initiative (switch Wis and Con for +6, but I'd prioritize Perception and Wis saves, personally).

Honestly, you could make this work with any race with the stats you have.

Have fun!

Just out of curiosity, why mountain dwarf? I've strongly considered Tabaxi for the relevant skill proficiencies built in and double movement to combine with the Tabaxi racial double movement, but am open to other races. This is a homebrew, so anything you can create as a character on dnd beyond's character creator is okay with the dm.

[RingoBongo]

Just a standard Battlemaster 5/ Rogue 5 build would be my suggestion. Take Dueling and use a shield. You've got the stats for 2 feats. Take Sentinel for off turn Sneak Attack, and maybe Shield Master? Expertise Athletics if you do.

Sentinel if they attack your buddy. If they attack you, Uncanny Dodge if they hit you, Riposte for another way to get off-turn Sneak Attack if they miss. You'll be beastly, but your individual attacks won't seem over the top.

Ranger is another excellent choice if you want some casting, 2 attacks, a Fighting Style, and another skill.

EDIT:

Mountain Dwarf
BM5/Swash5
20/15/18/12/16/14

Take Sentinel at F4, MAM at R4, and Squat Nimbleness at F6 to get your Dex to 16, another skill, Advantage to escape grapples, and 30' move speed. Go Rogue afterwards.

Expertise Athletics and Perception or Stealth. You'll get 2 more at Rogue 6.

Your Short Sword will be dealing out (1d6+7) x2, plus another 3d6 for SA. You can get another 4d6+7 most rounds with good tactics and a bit of luck.

You can have an AC of 20 with half plate and a shield with no disadvantage on stealth.

You can throw daggers for ranged SA and either Trip Attack to give your allies Advantage on a prone opponent or Goading Attack so the enemy has disadvantage on your allies.

You'll have a +5 to Initiative (switch Wis and Con for +6, but I'd prioritize Perception and Wis saves, personally).

Honestly, you could make this work with any race with the stats you have.

Have fun!

This is a really neat/cool split for str based rogue, even with point buy. Comes perfectly right online at level 10.

Not sure how you get 20 ac with no disadvantage to stealth unless you're braking medium armor mastery.

Alternatively, and for a point buy start. You could just get full plate for that sweet 20 ac and deal with disadvantage on stealth.... Or, try to swing mithral full plate somehow with your DM.

Very cool. Consider me inspired.

[Talionis]

I would consider Paladin 6/ Swashbuckler 4, ultimately Vengeance Paladin 9/ Swashbuckler 11. Pick Variant Human and Magic Intiate at level 1 for Magic Stones spell off Warlock. Max Charisma, at Paladin 9 you get Haste spell for 3 Attacks a turn.

[samcifer]

So I experimented with a character-builder (the dnd beyond one) and went with a tabaxi gloomstalker ranger 5 / swashbukcler rogue 5 with the Medium Armor Master Feat, 2-weapon fighting and the dual-wielder feat.

STR: 14 DEX: 20 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 16 CHA: 16 AC: 20 (+1 half-plate armor) +11 Initiative bonus.

Seems to do around 30+ dmg per turn against an AC of 16 imagined foe with 3 rapier attacks at +9 to hit and +5 DEX dmg per hit with 3d6 SA damage to one of the hits and +1d6 Hunter's Mark as extra damage per hit. IS that good or bad at lv. 10?

[Crgaston]

Just out of curiosity, why mountain dwarf? I've strongly considered Tabaxi for the relevant skill proficiencies built in and double movement to combine with the Tabaxi racial double movement, but am open to other races. This is a homebrew, so anything you can create as a character on dnd beyond's character creator is okay with the dm.

Because of the +2 to Str and Con. With those stats it gives you a 20 attack stat and an 18 Con, and then Squat Nimbleness lets you set your Dex to 16, which is all you'll ever need as a Strength Rogue with Medium Armor Master. As I said, with those stats, any race will work. A Tabaxi would be absolutely brutal with 18's in both Str and Dex. You could go 18/18/16/12/14/16.


This is a really neat/cool split for str based rogue, even with point buy. Comes perfectly right online at level 10.

Not sure how you get 20 ac with no disadvantage to stealth unless you're braking medium armor mastery.

Alternatively, and for a point buy start. You could just get full plate for that sweet 20 ac and deal with disadvantage on stealth.... Or, try to swing mithral full plate somehow with your DM.

Very cool. Consider me inspired.
Yes, sorry, I used the acronym MAM which = Medium Armor Master.
Yes, this works great with point buy too.

I'm currently running a Mountain Dwarf Battlemaster 6/ Thief 5, Point Buy, with Squat Nimbleness and the Healer feat. He's a Combat Medic.
I took Resilient Wis for my 6th level feat... might take Observant after I get Sentinel.

Stats are 18/14/16/8/11/10. Breastplate and shield for 18 AC. +12 Athletics and +10 Stealth. He can long jump 20', climb up to 60' per round, steal items off an enemy he's engaged with as a Bonus Action, heal himself or his teammates for 1d6+15 as a bonus action in combat, and shove enemies 15' with a dagger throw lol. The absolute most fun character I've played ever, and I started in 1980.

Thanks for the compliment, and glad to know you're inspired!

[Crgaston]

So I experimented with a character-builder (the dnd beyond one) and went with a tabaxi gloomstalker ranger 5 / swashbukcler rogue 5 with the Medium Armor Master Feat, 2-weapon fighting and the dual-wielder feat.

STR: 14 DEX: 20 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 16 CHA: 16 AC: 20 (+1 half-plate armor) +11 Initiative bonus.

Seems to do around 30+ dmg per turn against an AC of 16 imagined foe with 3 rapier attacks at +9 to hit and +5 DEX dmg per hit with 3d6 SA damage to one of the hits and +1d6 Hunter's Mark as extra damage per hit. IS that good or bad at lv. 10?

That looks great! +11 Initiative is insane, and your first round will be brutal.

5th level Ranger gets 2nd level spells. I have had great results with Spike Growth, and Pass Without Trace is top tier for group stealth.

My only nitpick is the Dual Wielder Feat. 2 DPR and 1 AC never feels like it's worth it to me. It's exactly equal to taking a Dex ASI with regard to AC and damage, but minus the checks and saves. Inspiring Leader could be giving you and your party 13 THP each 1xSR, or slighty more than 2 points in everyone's Con score.

Or Alert. I mean... +16 on Initiative? How can you not take this lol?

[samcifer]

That looks great! +11 Initiative is insane, and your first round will be brutal.

5th level Ranger gets 2nd level spells. I have had great results with Spike Growth, and Pass Without Trace is top tier for group stealth.

My only nitpick is the Dual Wielder Feat. 2 DPR and 1 AC never feels like it's worth it to me. It's exactly equal to taking a Dex ASI with regard to AC and damage, but minus the checks and saves. Inspiring Leader could be giving you and your party 13 THP each 1xSR, or slighty more than 2 points in everyone's Con score.

Or Alert. I mean... +16 on Initiative? How can you not take this lol?

I swapped out 2 weapon fighting for Defense fighting style and replaced one of my rapiers with a shield, then changed the Dual Wielding feat to Alert. This puts me at +16 Initiative and 22 AC.

[Crgaston]

I swapped out 2 weapon fighting for Defense fighting style and replaced one of my rapiers with a shield, then changed the Dual Wielding feat to Alert. This puts me at +16 Initiative and 22 AC.

That's just nasty lol

And super on point for a Tabaxi.

Let us know how it goes!

[RingoBongo]

Because of the +2 to Str and Con. With those stats it gives you a 20 attack stat and an 18 Con, and then Squat Nimbleness lets you set your Dex to 16, which is all you'll ever need as a Strength Rogue with Medium Armor Master. As I said, with those stats, any race will work. A Tabaxi would be absolutely brutal with 18's in both Str and Dex. You could go 18/18/16/12/14/16.


Yes, sorry, I used the acronym MAM which = Medium Armor Master.
Yes, this works great with point buy too.

I'm currently running a Mountain Dwarf Battlemaster 6/ Thief 5, Point Buy, with Squat Nimbleness and the Healer feat. He's a Combat Medic.
I took Resilient Wis for my 6th level feat... might take Observant after I get Sentinel.

Stats are 18/14/16/8/11/10. Breastplate and shield for 18 AC. +12 Athletics and +10 Stealth. He can long jump 20', climb up to 60' per round, steal items off an enemy he's engaged with as a Bonus Action, heal himself or his teammates for 1d6+15 as a bonus action in combat, and shove enemies 15' with a dagger throw lol. The absolute most fun character I've played ever, and I started in 1980.

Thanks for the compliment, and glad to know you're inspired!

I threw something together last night just for fun and it looks like this...

Name: Carl Bushwhacker

17, 14, 14, 8, 12, 10
Half-Orc fighter (later multiclass into rogue up to 5)

Feats: +2 strength, heavy armor master, shield master, tough, maybe sentinel (just a place to start, order unsure).

Probably take defense fighting style (that way he can choose either ultimate defense with shield or possibly two short swords for 21 or 19 ac, respectively).

Hopefully get mithral full plate for stealth (if nice DM is nice :)). If not, meh. Still would be rocking 20 ac and be able to get sneak attack on most of the time with swashbuckler/shield master/and effective combat placement movement/maybe some team buffs.

Battle master: riposte, goading, and feinting to start.

Expertise: athletics and (stealth/theives'tools/perception... Depending on DM and how game goes)

[samcifer]

That's just nasty lol

And super on point for a Tabaxi.

Let us know how it goes!

I just admit that losing that 3rd attack per turn kinda sucks. It's a definite drop in dps

[Crgaston]

I just admit that losing that 3rd attack per turn kinda sucks. It's a definite drop in dps
I mean, if Dual Wielding is central to your character concept, by all means go for it.

You had mentioned wanting to use your Bonus Action for Cunning Action more, which was the point of getting Extra Attack. Since TWF also takes your BA, it seems counterproductive to your stated goals.

This is why I am a fan of Dueling. The +2 per hit adds 4 to your DPR, which mitigates the loss of the 3rd attack.

Defense FS and Rapier: 2d8+10+3d6=28.5

Dueling FS, rapier: 2d8+14+3d6=32.5

Defense FS and Dual Wielding Feat: 3d8+10+3d6=33

TWF style, no feat: 3d6+15+3d6=36 (2 scimitars)

TWF and Dual Wielding feat: 3d8+15+3d6=38

These are all theoretical averages.

In practice, if you assume a 65% hit rate, you're looking at 18.5, 21.1, 21.5, 23.4 and 24.7 respectively, so about 3.5 DPR difference between Dueling with a rapier and TWF+DW with 2 of them.

Since the whole point of taking Extra Attack is giving yourself a better chance of landing your Sneak Attack without eating into your Bonus Action, I feel like it's a worthwhile trade.

[samcifer]

I mean, if Dual Wielding is central to your character concept, by all means go for it.

You had mentioned wanting to use your Bonus Action for Cunning Action more, which was the point of getting Extra Attack. Since TWF also takes your BA, it seems counterproductive to your stated goals.

This is why I am a fan of Dueling. The +2 per hit adds 4 to your DPR, which mitigates the loss of the 3rd attack.

Defense FS and Rapier: 2d8+10+3d6=28.5

Dueling FS, rapier: 2d8+14+3d6=32.5

Defense FS and Dual Wielding Feat: 3d8+10+3d6=33

TWF style, no feat: 3d6+15+3d6=36 (2 scimitars)

TWF and Dual Wielding feat: 3d8+15+3d6=38

These are all theoretical averages.

In practice, if you assume a 65% hit rate, you're looking at 18.5, 21.1, 21.5, 23.4 and 24.7 respectively, so about 3.5 DPR difference between Dueling with a rapier and TWF+DW with 2 of them.

Since the whole point of taking Extra Attack is giving yourself a better chance of landing your Sneak Attack without eating into your Bonus Action, I feel like it's a worthwhile trade.

What if I went dueling style and took ranger 5, rogue 4 and hexblade 1? That'd be an extra 5 dmg per hit and would compensate for the most 3rd attack.

[Crgaston]

What if I went dueling style and took ranger 5, rogue 4 and hexblade 1? That'd be an extra 5 dmg per hit and would compensate for the most 3rd attack.

But you''d lose a d6 of Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge. Maybe at L11, but definitely not worth trading Rogue 5 for, IMO.

It's woth pointing out that none of the above calculations tale Hunter's Mark or the Gloomstalker Bonus Attack into account.

[samcifer]

But you''d lose a d6 of Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge. Maybe at L11, but definitely not worth trading Rogue 5 for, IMO.

It's woth pointing out that none of the above calculations tale Hunter's Mark or the Gloomstalker Bonus Attack into account.

Well we seem to level up every 3 weeks, so if I start this character at lvl 11, I could do 5 each of ranger and rogue and make hexblade my 11th lvl