How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok, we have a Ranger, a Cleric, a Rogue, a Wizard (Conjurer), a Paladin and a Bard go up against a Pit Friend. And all the six heroes are at Level 20. So do you think this will be an even fight for a balanced party to go up against a pit fiend from world domination?

[legomaster00156]

If anything, the pit fiend is outmatched in pound-for-pound abilities. Action economy would give even just two of those level 20 PC's an advantage. That said, we don't know anything about the encounter beyond the barest bones of the participants, and circumstances, stronghold, and reinforcements could send the balance of the fight in either direction.

[Buufreak]

They are going to wipe the floor with that pathetic demon in roughly 3 rounds, if not less.

[Bartmanhomer]

If anything, the pit fiend is outmatched in pound-for-pound abilities. Action economy would give even just two of those level 20 PC's an advantage. That said, we don't know anything about the encounter beyond the barest bones of the participants, and circumstances, stronghold, and reinforcements could send the balance of the fight in either direction.
Well the location is at an urban setting at the human world. Not the other plane. and it's only the six heroes versus pit fiend battling each other.

[heavyfuel]

Unless you're willing either to advance that Pit Fiend with about a crapton of class levels, or give him enough magic items so as to have the wealth of a small nation, he's getting wiped bad.

Like, not even a contest for the PCs.

On a side note, 6v1 is reeeeeaaally hard to get right. Action economy counts for so much, and you have to either make his defenses nigh impenetrable, or he's going down. Problem is that making defenses really good usually result in offense being really good (not always, but does happen, especially with class levels rather than items)

[satorian]

Well, it does depend on how they prepare and how smart they play. Pit fiends aren't just sacks of HP. Their spell likes are a real threat. Wish 1/year? Yes. Summon only slightly lesser devils, which can themselves summon more. So much fire damage.

Even 6 level 20 characters have to prep for a pit fiend. They *should* win, but mistakes will be costly.

[Alcore]

The Pit fiend is exactly cr20 which counts as an 'average' encounter provided you don't increase APL for the parties numbers. Unless he is a meant to be an 'easy' encounter he is going to need help. If he is a boss he is definitely going to need some prepwork of his own with help.

Be sure to use his spells to great effect (he is going to need everything he can get to be a challenge to the party.)


If the party is under optimized or even unaware of the pit fiend beforehand (like no anti devil prep) he might stop them in their tracks for a moment.

[Calthropstu]

Agree with those that have gone before me. That pitfiend is toast. For a real challenge players need level + (2-5 depending on optimizatoon)

[Elysiume]

If anything, the pit fiend is outmatched in pound-for-pound abilities. Action economy would give even just two of those level 20 PC's an advantage. That said, we don't know anything about the encounter beyond the barest bones of the participants, and circumstances, stronghold, and reinforcements could send the balance of the fight in either direction.I'll second (or third or whatever) these questions. With a little prep and a favorable encounter, the paladin could kill the pit fiend in one full attack. How optimized the party is (both in terms of builds and tactics) is also very important.

[icefractal]

How optimized the party is (both in terms of builds and tactics) is also very important.This. An even semi-optimized party will faceroll this easily, but for a really unoptimized party it could be a tough battle. Although I think they'd still win unless the Pit Fiend was being played a lot better than the PCs.

[legomaster00156]

I will say that a Pit Fiend has superhuman intellect and great sway among demons. They should never be caught fully unawares, and should have a decent set of allies with them.

[Asmotherion]

The Wizard and the Cleric can already Solo it. You have to put some extra creatures in the encounter.

[Selion]

Ok, we have a Ranger, a Cleric, a Rogue, a Wizard (Conjurer), a Paladin and a Bard go up against a Pit Friend. And all the six heroes are at Level 20. So do you think this will be an even fight for a balanced party to go up against a pit fiend from world domination?

Let the wizard alone and give the Pit Fiend a buddy

[Jack_Simth]

Well, a lot of it does depend on various things not stated, however:
A CR 20 Pit Fiend is intended to be an average encounter for a party of four. You have a party of six. Unless there's a significant (dis)advantage on one side or the other not stated (differences in optimization levels, gear, tactics, et cetera; one side or the other having allies, terrain advantage, extra (un)lucky rolls, et cetera), the game's basic design says the Pit Fiend should get slaughtered.



Well, it does depend on how they prepare and how smart they play. Pit fiends aren't just sacks of HP. Their spell likes are a real threat. Wish 1/year? Yes. Summon only slightly lesser devils, which can themselves summon more. So much fire damage.
Chain summoning doesn't work, due to a clause in the Summoning Subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning): "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have" (Calling effects don't have that clause).

So you can't summon a critter that then summons a critter.

[exelsisxax]

If your players understand char-op at all, this is trivial. If the fiend gets a bad initiative, i'd expect it to not even survive long enough to take that turn. I would expect any basic-optimized party of TWO to be able to take one on, and plenty of builds can solo encounters like that.

This plan for world domination is going to last 6-12 seconds at best. You need to throw something MUCH more dangerous down, preferably with minions.

[denthor]

For those of you who say the wizard alone can stop this pit fiend. My 11th level wizard does an average of 17 points per round. With a Miss saving throw of like 34 points per round.

The wizard is a Summoner. Show a protection from anything good evil law chaos means that none of his summon creatures going to attack.

Please explain to me how this wizard round by round can destroy a pit fiend

[exelsisxax]

For those of you who say the wizard alone can stop this pit fiend. My 11th level wizard does an average of 17 points per round. With a Miss saving throw of like 34 points per round.

The wizard is a Summoner. Show a protection from anything good evil law chaos means that none of his summon creatures going to attack.

Please explain to me how this wizard round by round can destroy a pit fiend

Please re-read the OP, where it it specified that every PC is 20th level. So advance your wizard to level 20 and think about this again.

[denthor]

Please re-read the OP, where it it specified that every PC is 20th level. So advance your wizard to level 20 and think about this again.


I have wizard alone does round by round for the stupid player like me. I do not wish to image a fight give me both sides.

[Bartmanhomer]

I suppose the Pit Friend should add a few minions to make this fight difficult. But with the Cleric and the Wizard (Conjurer), it still wouldn't make any differences anyway.

[Selion]

I have wizard alone does round by round for the stupid player like me. I do not wish to image a fight give me both sides.

Ok, i'm not a D&D expert, i know better pathfinder. A lot depends on who wins initiative, the wizard has a few ways to increase their initiative to match that of a Pit Fiend (familiar with initiative bonus, improved initiative, and high dexterity trough magic items), but let's say the wizard loses initiative, otherwise this fight begins with time stop. I assume wizard has spell turning and contingency active, because i don't find a real reason he shouldn't, if he made researches on his foe's abilities.

Possible openings for the Pit Fiend:

"Quickened fireball", "power word: stun" -> Spell turning has 75% of probability of reflecting "power word: stun", which doesn't have an effect on the devil. The fireball hurts, but it doesn't kill the wizard.

"Quickened fireball", "Mass hold monsters" -> Spell turning has 50% of probabilities of reflecting this spell, which would have an effect on the devil. DC is 27, so a wizard with +0 wisdom and a cloak of resistance +5 has 11/20 chances of overcoming it.
So, these are the results of this tactic:
4.4% the Pit Fiend reflect hold monsters on himself, the spell overcome spell resistance and he fails the will save. The Pit Fiend is blocked
73.1% The spell fails, either because it's reflected, but the monster resist it, or because the wizard succeeds his saving throw.
22.5% The spell hold the wizard in the first round, the subsequent round wizard has another will save.

Movement + Tail slap + grapple -> nasty, but wizard should have freedom of movement active

Quickened fireball, ready an action: fireball if the wizard casts a spell -> the actual good idea, i don't remember how this worked in 3.5, but in pathfinder this thing pretty much disables the enemy caster. BTW i would hate as a master using such a cheap tactic.

Wish: read the note above, wish is once for year, it's unlikely for the Pit Fiend opening the fight this way.

So, if i haven't forgotten anything, best chance for the Pit Fiend is Power Word: Stun, which gives him 25% of probability of winning the fight the first round.

BTW Wizard has contingency, which i would spell like "if i'm unable to cast spells teleport to my sanctum"

Wizard turn:

Time stop, gate: call a solar, teleport home (inside my permanent prismatic sphere)

Edit: i just noticed that if quickened fireball triggered spell turning one of the main defences on the wizard part would have fallen, BTW spell turning is not triggered by AOE effects, so the argument is still valid.
Edit 2: oh, it's pathfinder, the main argument is the same, main difference is that in pathfinder you cannot control a solar with Gate, but the defences on the wizard side and the Pit Fiend tactics are basically the same, i'll update tomorrow.
Edit 3: i'm lazy, i don't want to figure an alternative tactic, so if have the feat " Spell Specialization" on gate your CL becomes 22, so you can actually control a Solar.

[Bartmanhomer]

They are going to wipe the floor with that pathetic demon in roughly 3 rounds, if not less.

Pit Friend is a devil, not a demon.

[Buufreak]

Pit Friend is a devil, not a demon.

Semantics. You are seriously going to nitpick that tiny detail out of the long list of reasons why this is going to be an absolute stomping?

[Biggus]

This can give you an idea of how difficult an encounter should be:

http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

In this case, it comes out as "easy".

The challenge rating system tends to assume not-very-optimised PCs, so you may need to adjust the difficulty if you have an even moderately optimised party.

[Bartmanhomer]

Semantics. You are seriously going to nitpick that tiny detail out of the long list of reasons why this is going to be an absolute stomping?

Just wanted to correct you. That's all.

[StevenC21]

If a level 20 Wizard is ever, EVER going head to head with a Pit Fiend:

(1) The wizard can roflstomp (excluding maliciously unoptimized builds, like a Focused Specialist Enchanter banning Conjuration, Illusion, and Transmutation)

(2) The wizard has already failed to optimise.

A level 20 Wizard can exist in his own private realm, directly controlling his own flesh puppets directly to cast his spells, and he can have 20 contingencies to Teleport him to his personal 1:10000000 time speed Demiplane so he can mobilize his army of CoDZilla Ice Assassins to curb stomp anyone, anywhere. He can Teleport through time to kill you as a baby. He can call the most powerful creatures in existence and bind them to his will. He is beyond all other mortals (not that divinity has anything to stop him).

A level 20 Wizard, without even prestige classes, can wipe anything off the map without a thought.

[exelsisxax]

If a level 20 Wizard is ever, EVER going head to head with a Pit Fiend:

(1) The wizard can roflstomp (excluding maliciously unoptimized builds, like a Focused Specialist Enchanter banning Conjuration, Illusion, and Transmutation)

(2) The wizard has already failed to optimise.

A level 20 Wizard can exist in his own private realm, directly controlling his own flesh puppets directly to cast his spells, and he can have 20 contingencies to Teleport him to his personal 1:10000000 time speed Demiplane so he can mobilize his army of CoDZilla Ice Assassins to curb stomp anyone, anywhere. He can Teleport through time to kill you as a baby. He can call the most powerful creatures in existence and bind them to his will. He is beyond all other mortals (not that divinity has anything to stop him).

A level 20 Wizard, without even prestige classes, can wipe anything off the map without a thought.

This is a pathfinder thread, friend. So nothing in your post is actually accurate.

[StevenC21]

Well,

(1) I didn't realize that.

(2) it's not accurate to PATHFINDER, but it is accurate to D&D 3.5e (although granted, that doesn't actually help OP).

[legomaster00156]

Pit Friend is a devil, not a demon.
Actually, a Pit Friend is a buddy you tossed into a well. :smallbiggrin:

[Bartmanhomer]

Darn it. I hate auto correct. I meant Pit Fiend, not Pit Friend. :mad:

[Jack_Simth]

(not that divinity has anything to stop him).
Sure they do.

Any deity with the Alter Reality Salient Divine Ability (www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) is a Wizard+ right out of the box. Any spell as a standard action - which includes Wish (see the create magic items clause), Ice Assasin, and Time Stop - with no components required. Oh yes, and they can also make effects permanent - with only a rest clause - which theoretically means they can go into Time Stop and stay there as long as they want (They'll need to rest up a bit after making the Time Stop permanent, but... a Time Stop that lasts until dispelled? The deity literally has as much time as is desired). This is at will, right out of the box, by picking just one ability. Anything a Wizard can do, a deity with Alter Reality can also do, and generally faster. Especially if the deity in question also has Wizard levels for Quicken Spell on actual slots. Sure, few if any of the WotC printed deities don't know anything about optimization... but you could say the same for WotC printed Wizards, too.

If the player gets to optimize, why not the deity?


Actually, a Pit Friend is a buddy you tossed into a well. :smallbiggrin:
... you don't play around with Charm spells on the lower planes?

[StevenC21]

Well, the point is moot, because the Wizard can effectively do that too... In that, he can simply choose to become a deity. It's quite easy, honestly. All it requires is a few godly hairs and a whole lot of squirrels.

[Buufreak]

... but not in PF, where epic and divine ranks don't exist.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, the point is moot, because the Wizard can effectively do that too... In that, he can simply choose to become a deity. It's quite easy, honestly. All it requires is a few godly hairs and a whole lot of squirrels.
You don't require "beat" to invalidate your point - merely "stop." If they're tied, then the deity can interfere with the Wizard's actions well enough for "stop" to be met.

At the upper limit of 3.5 optimization, everyone is pun-pun (including the Pit Fiend - consider what happens if that 1/year free Wish was used a few centuries ago to make a simulacrum of a 40th level Wizard build, thus putting a perfectly loyal 20th-level Wizard build under the pit-fiend's control: It's entirely possible for the Pit Fiend to be Pun-Pun, too), and thus, everyone is tied (or at least, non-deterministic). What happens before that upper limit, though?

Optimization is rather difficult to quantify, but if you assume "equal" optimization of available resources, then the game generally goes to the either the party with the better starting set of resources, or the party with more time to prepare. Additionally, not all sources are accepted at all tables. Let's look at those:

Starting Resources?
"Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics)" - deity gets more starting resources than does a wizard, at least in terms of character build options, and can absolutely be Wizard+[a bunch of useful stuff]. A+B > A when B > 0 and A has some defined finite value.

Time?
In the *vast* majority of campaign worlds, the deities pre-date the PC's. Generally by a lot. Deity gets more time to prepare, too. Other scenarios might happen, but are table-dependent and I imagine they're very rare (although there is that one module with Vecna's ascension, but that was intended to be an edition transition adventure, so the 3.5 rules wouldn't be in play).

Sources?
If you're doing the comparison with actual builds, Deities and Demigods must of necessity be in play on the Divine side for the comparison to be possible (if not, deities are unstatted, and thus, can't be fought, as they're essentially the DM's whim, which trumps all rules - no comparison can be made). Any book added will increase the possibilities for the deity build at least as much as the Wizard build (usually more - Alter Reality grants native access to all spell lists). Meanwhile, the pun-pun keystone is in a moderately obscure book (Serpent Kingdoms) and is often banned at tables for bad balance (even ignoring the Sarrukh and Manipulate Form), and Frostburn (the source of the keystone for the Wizard's route to divinity - Ice Assasin) isn't going to be everywhere either. Add those two keystone books, and the wizard can tie the deity. Add any other sources, and the deity still wins.

[Septimus]

As it is, the Pit Fiend does not stand a chance. A CR below the Average Level of the Party will be matched easily. To fix that, if you want a challenging fight, you should pump the CR of the encounter by 3 to 5, depending the optimisation level of the party. A quick fix might to give the Cleric template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-class-templates/cleric-creature-cr-1-2-or-3/) to the Pit Fiend (CR +3). With that, he should have enough spells to cast several Planar Ally (conjuring a Bearded Devil every day, keeping the 20 of them as bodyguards). Even if the Bearded Devils will be just annoying to the "Heroes", they will let the Pit Fiend get a better Action Economy to even the odds (taking Quicken Spell feat could help there as well).
If you want to be more mean, you can add a few HD to the Pit Fiend, bringing him to 22+ HD to get Greater Planar Allies (Nemesis and/or Apostate Devil) to add to the fray.

[Bartmanhomer]

As it is, the Pit Fiend does not stand a chance. A CR below the Average Level of the Party will be matched easily. To fix that, if you want a challenging fight, you should pump the CR of the encounter by 3 to 5, depending the optimisation level of the party. A quick fix might to give the Cleric template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-class-templates/cleric-creature-cr-1-2-or-3/) to the Pit Fiend (CR +3). With that, he should have enough spells to cast several Planar Ally (conjuring a Bearded Devil every day, keeping the 20 of them as bodyguards). Even if the Bearded Devils will be just annoying to the "Heroes", they will let the Pit Fiend get a better Action Economy to even the odds (taking Quicken Spell feat could help there as well).
If you want to be more mean, you can add a few HD to the Pit Fiend, bringing him to 22+ HD to get Greater Planar Allies (Nemesis and/or Apostate Devil) to add to the fray.Hmm..I like the Cleric Template. :smile:

[Elves]

For casual creatures that don't need to be uber-optimized to a stitch, I honestly enjoy the SLA metamagic feats. IIRC pit fiends have quicken SLA on fireball, but you're better off putting it on their dispel. Give Quicken SLA to the devils they summon as well, and you've got a much better action economy.

If you want this encounter to actually be challenging at that level, even to a lower-op party, add more monsters or have the confrontation come after a big encounter that tempts the PCs to use their big stuff.

What are your players' usual tactics?

[Bartmanhomer]

For casual creatures that don't need to be uber-optimized to a stitch, I honestly enjoy the SLA metamagic feats. IIRC pit fiends have quicken SLA on fireball, but you're better off putting it on their teleport or dispel. Give Quicken SLA to the devils they summon as well, and you've got a much better action economy.

If you want this encounter to actually be challenging at that level, even to a lower-op party, add more monsters or have the confrontation come after a big encounter that tempts the PCs to use their big stuff.

What are your players' usual tactics?

Ranger: Attack with arrows
Cleric: Spells and close combat
Rogue: Close Combat and Sneak Attack
Wizard (Conjurer): Summon monsters and spells
Paladin: Close combat and spellls
Bard: Spells

[Elves]

I know, but like, what kind of spells?

[Bartmanhomer]

I know, but like, what kind of spells?

Wizard (Conjurer): Clashing Rock, Summon Monster IX, Tsumani, Wooden Phalanx

Bard: Charm Mass Monster, Cure Mass Moderate Wounds, Deadly Finale, Summon Monster VI, Touch Of Slumber

Cleric: True Resurrection, Storm of Vengeance, Miracle, Mass Heal, Implosion

Paladin: Burst of Glory, Burst with Light, Cure Serious Wounds

[Elves]

It looks like you're dealing with a lot of summoned monsters (Summon Monster 7&9, Wooden Phalanx), so you'll want the pit fiend to have a bunch of minions/allies who can intercept those and deal with them.

For Clashing Rocks, you probably want him to have some form of immediate interrupt that lets him get out of the way of it. Although the image of a pit fiend getting buried under a pile of rubble is pretty cool so it's not a big loss if he dies that way.

Implosion - For the minions whose purpose is to keep the summoned monsters busy, it's not a big problem if they get whacked off by this, if anything it's a win because that's a turn the cleric isn't focused on the pit fiend.

Mass Heal - Pit fiends don't really have a way of dealing enough damage to KO someone in one round so this means it will be using Trap the Soul a lot. Quickened fireball could be a way of trying to get the cleric to waste his turn on Mass Heal, though dispelling is still the priority.

Miracle - be ready for what you'll do if the cleric uses its request function to try and win. Don't just say no, have something cool happen just not an auto-win.

[Bartmanhomer]

It looks like you're dealing with a lot of summoned monsters (Summon Monster 7&9, Wooden Phalanx), so you'll want the pit fiend to have a bunch of minions/allies who can intercept those and deal with them.

For Clashing Rocks, you probably want him to have some form of immediate interrupt that lets him get out of the way of it. Although the image of a pit fiend getting buried under a pile of rubble is pretty cool so it's not a big loss if he dies that way.

Implosion - For the minions whose purpose is to keep the summoned monsters busy, it's not a big problem if they get whacked off by this, if anything it's a win because that's a turn the cleric isn't focused on the pit fiend.

Mass Heal - Pit fiends don't really have a way of dealing enough damage to KO someone in one round so this means it will be using Trap the Soul a lot. Quickened fireball could be a way of trying to get the cleric to waste his turn on Mass Heal, though dispelling is still the priority.

Miracle - be ready for what you'll do if the cleric uses its request function to try and win. Don't just say no, have something cool happen just not an auto-win.

What can I say? It's a summon party. :tongue:

[Calthropstu]

summons can't attack the pit fiend and can be completely ignored. If you have minions though, when the summons attempt to intercept taking control of them could be an option.

[Bartmanhomer]

summons can't attack the pit fiend and can be completely ignored. If you have minions though, when the summons attempt to intercept taking control of them could be an option.

Really? I didn't know that. :confused:

[Calthropstu]

Really? I didn't know that. :confused:

It has magic circle against good at will and unholy aura at will. It will pretty much always have these up.

[Bartmanhomer]

It has magic circle against good at will and unholy aura at will. It will pretty much always have these up.

Thank you for letting me know about that information. :smile:

[Elves]

summons can't attack the pit fiend and can be completely ignored. If you have minions though, when the summons attempt to intercept taking control of them could be an option.

Not true, because PF unholy aura doesn't protect against the golems from wooden phalanx which are [creations], or against neutral summons, and the protection vs summoning ends if the devil makes an attack which is liable to happen.

[Calthropstu]

Not true, because PF unholy aura doesn't protect against the golems from wooden phalanx which are [creations], or against neutral summons, and the protection vs summoning ends if the devil makes an attack which is liable to happen.

Eh, it can ignore the summoned creatures and concentrate on spells. Why would it attack the summons when they are virtually useless?

[Elves]

Any attack, not just vs summons. Yes, it's probably going to be using trap the soul or whatever not attacking. [Actually, casting an offensive spell might count as attacking in PF terms, as with 3.5 invisibility -- I'm not sure.] Point still stands that it doesn't affect the wood golems or neutral summons, which any caster who knows their stuff will summon when facing it.

[Bartmanhomer]

Oh yeah I forgot that the Ranger also has spells but he rarely uses spells.

Ranger: Aspect Of The Wolf, Cure Serious Wounds, Summon Nature's Ally IV

[tiercel]

If the summons somehow matter at all, blasphemy will do a pretty good job of sweeping the board of nonevil creatures (including banishing extraplanar outright, never mind the whole dazed/weakened/paralyzed/killed thing)

[Calthropstu]

If the summons somehow matter at all, blasphemy will do a pretty good job of sweeping the board of nonevil creatures (including banishing extraplanar outright, never mind the whole dazed/weakened/paralyzed/killed thing)

Believe it or not, summon monster 3,, 4 and 5 could very much cause a problem for a pit fiend if they are optimized for it. Lantern archons in enough numbers can take down anything in the game.

[Bartmanhomer]

Believe it or not, summon monster 3,, 4 and 5 could very much cause a problem for a pit fiend if they are optimized for it. Lantern archons in enough numbers can take down anything in the game.

Really? No kidding. :eek:

[Calthropstu]

Really? No kidding. :eek:

They bypass all dr, and deal light damage which nothing has resistance to. It's ex, so not stopped by anti magic.

[Psychoalpha]

Summon only slightly lesser devils, which can themselves summon more.

The devils summoned with the Pit Fiend's (or any other monster's, as a rule) summon ability can't use their own summon SLA for an hour.

Sooo.. if it has time to set things up, sure, but if not, no.

Also...


Even 6 level 20 characters have to prep for a pit fiend. They *should* win, but mistakes will be costly.

lolwhat? 6 level 20 characters, including two full casters and a martial specifically classes to wreck evil outsiders, should barely even notice a pit fiend. As others have said, it's an average encounter for a party of four level 20 PCs. 6 is overkill, if you're just talking about 6v1.


Chain summoning doesn't work, due to a clause in the Summoning Subschool: "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have" (Calling effects don't have that clause).

So you can't summon a critter that then summons a critter.

See above. The Summon (sp) ability does allow them to summon others, but not for an hour after being summoned.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Summon-Sp-


For those of you who say the wizard alone can stop this pit fiend. My 11th level wizard does an average of 17 points per round. With a Miss saving throw of like 34 points per round.

Outside of veeeeeerry specific builds, trying to defeat things with damage spells is a really bad way to approach things as a wizard.


Believe it or not, summon monster 3,, 4 and 5 could very much cause a problem for a pit fiend if they are optimized for it. Lantern archons in enough numbers can take down anything in the game.

Lantern Archons have a +3 to hit, range of 30ft, and do 1d6 with their light rays, while even the base Pit Fiend is going to have a touch AC of 22 (18 +4 deflection from Unholy Aura). So these archons will hit on a 19 or 20, maybe once before being obliterated like whoah by the 40ft radius spread of Blasphemy at-will.

I guess if you somehow summoned like a thousand lantern archons, they might prove a problem, but I doubt otherwise I doubt it.

[Calthropstu]

Lantern Archons have a +3 to hit, range of 30ft, and do 1d6 with their light rays, while even the base Pit Fiend is going to have a touch AC of 22 (18 +4 deflection from Unholy Aura). So these archons will hit on a 19 or 20, maybe once before being obliterated like whoah by the 40ft radius spread of Blasphemy at-will.

I guess if you somehow summoned like a thousand lantern archons, they might prove a problem, but I doubt otherwise I doubt it.

1000 lantern archons ibstagib a pit fiend as that is 200d6 (1/10 chance vs 1000 x 2 attacks)

Meanwhile, in reality, a good lvl 4 summon from a dedicated summoner hits 1d3 + 2 average 4 for a 40% chance of hitting 1 d6.

Not much right? But it's about 8d6 of unreducable damage over 20 rounds. And if he uses his standard to wipe em out? Yay, my 4th lvl spell ate his action.

Of course, my summoner would spam it hitting a few dozen during the combat all spread so he couldn't wipe em in 1 shot.

[Bartmanhomer]

So what's the verdict? Is summons a good idea or a bad idea against the Pit Fiend? :confused:

[exelsisxax]

So what's the verdict? Is summons a good idea or a bad idea against the Pit Fiend? :confused:

Optimized summoning is good against everything. Are the party optimized?

[Bartmanhomer]

Optimized summoning is good against everything. Are the party optimized?

Yes, they are. Nobody didn't die meaning they're optimized. :smile:

[StevenC21]

Yes, they are. Nobody didn't die meaning they're optimized. :smile:

I'm so sorry for the TPK.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm so sorry for the TPK.

What's TPK stands for? :confused:

[Elves]

So what's the verdict? Is summons a good idea or a bad idea against the Pit Fiend? :confused:

Well, Protection from Good only protects against summoned creatures' natural weapons and touch spells, and Blasphemy has a 40ft radius. So summons who have ranged abilities may be best.

[Psychoalpha]

What's TPK stands for? :confused:

Total Party Kill.

'Nobody didn't die' means everybody died, since there was nobody who didn't die.

[OGDojo]

Ok, we have a Ranger, a Cleric, a Rogue, a Wizard (Conjurer), a Paladin and a Bard go up against a Pit Friend. And all the six heroes are at Level 20. So do you think this will be an even fight for a balanced party to go up against a pit fiend from world domination?

The way to balance this out is to create the demon yourself, cuz technically a demon is a "Person" that was so evil that the gods saw fit to punish them by changing their appearance to match the evil inside them (or at least thats the lore im going with) so technically you could BUILD your own devil. make it a level 23ish (probably 24) and give it the Half Fiend template or some other feindish template, you could even add class levels on top of that pit fiend to give it a fighting chance (i would suggest something weird like incarnate or true namer or dread necromancer or perhaps even shadowcaster (make sure to use the fix that makes it so you can get any 1st level spells to unlock second level spells and so forth cuz at level 5 you gain the OP spell called "FLicker" instant teleportation and 50% miss chance if used while someone is trying to hit you. you teleport up to 5ft/2cl and the spell lasts 1rnd/cl. its a pretty handy spell and there are several others for controlling a battlefield and funneling people to where you want them)

[Psychoalpha]

cuz technically a demon is a "Person" that was so evil that the gods saw fit to punish them by changing their appearance to match the evil inside them (or at least thats the lore im going with)

I'm not sure your homebrew lore explanation is helpful to somebody else's game. That's... certainly not how any of the established game settings work, re: demons (or devils), that I'm aware of. o.O

Also:


incarnate or true namer or dread necromancer or perhaps even shadowcaster

Thread was tagged as Pathfinder, and converting any of this stuff to PF from 3.5 seems like a lot of work for one enemy. >_>

[Calthropstu]

I'm not sure your homebrew lore explanation is helpful to somebody else's game. That's... certainly not how any of the established game settings work, re: demons (or devils), that I'm aware of. o.O

Also:



Thread was tagged as Pathfinder, and converting any of this stuff to PF from 3.5 seems like a lot of work for one enemy. >_>

The actual lore is that an evil person is slowly broken down and forms a (lemure, dretch) Eventually, several coalesce to form a lesser demon/devil which can then eventually form into a greater entity.

Sometimes a single soul with enough power and evil can form a greater entity, but that is truly rare and the process, regardless of how it forms the entity, destroys the soul and will of the original creature.