What if Two Incarnae want to Exalt The Same Person?

[Lord Raziere]

I just had a thought.

Say there is a mortal, and they do something heroic or whatever to make it seem they are worthy, and both The Unconquered Sun and Luna came to them at the same time and found each other trying to Exalt the same person.

The situation is wildly, completely improbable. Astronomically so. I know that. but lets say, for the sake of discussion, that it just does: these two Incarnae are trying to Exalt one person and they won't budge on it.

What happens, because I don't know if anyone has ever asked this question before, but it sounds like something out of myth that Exalted would totally have happen, much like the golden apple of discord being argued over by three goddesses.

So what do you guys think would happen? would this mortal have the unique chance to CHOOSE which Exaltation they get? would Sol and Luna compete over who gets to Exalt them? Do they just flip a coin of ambrosia? What? I don't think there is any wrong answer to this, but I certainly want to hear peoples thoughts on this.

[EmperorSarda]

I just had a thought.

Say there is a mortal, and they do something heroic or whatever to make it seem they are worthy, and both The Unconquered Sun and Luna came to them at the same time and found each other trying to Exalt the same person.

The situation is wildly, completely improbable. Astronomically so. I know that. but lets say, for the sake of discussion, that it just does: these two Incarnae are trying to Exalt one person and they won't budge on it.

What happens, because I don't know if anyone has ever asked this question before, but it sounds like something out of myth that Exalted would totally have happen, much like the golden apple of discord being argued over by three goddesses.

So what do you guys think would happen? would this mortal have the unique chance to CHOOSE which Exaltation they get? would Sol and Luna compete over who gets to Exalt them? Do they just flip a coin of ambrosia? What? I don't think there is any wrong answer to this, but I certainly want to hear peoples thoughts on this.

First off, Luna and TUS don't choose who exalt. The individual exaltation chooses. And there is a different qualifier for each. Lunars are chosen more because they acted as a type of guardian. For Solar exaltations, it is more dependent on the heroism as typified by the individual caste.

That said, if a Lunar or Solar exaltation tried to attach and exalt a specific mortal at the same time, then ultimately it is the mortal's choice.

[Particle_Man]

Both Sun and Moon at the same time? Is that not definitionally an Eclipse Caste? :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Raziere]

First off, Luna and TUS don't choose who exalt. The individual exaltation chooses. And there is a different qualifier for each. Lunars are chosen more because they acted as a type of guardian. For Solar exaltations, it is more dependent on the heroism as typified by the individual caste.

That said, if a Lunar or Solar exaltation tried to attach and exalt a specific mortal at the same time, then ultimately it is the mortal's choice.

Thats a 2eism. I'm talking about 3e. Exaltations are not shards in 3e.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'ma go with "Solar during the day, Lunar at night." With their personalities slowly splintering, too, at a guess. Seems like the most narratively interesting, though god knows how it would work mechanically.

[EmperorSarda]

My guess it depends on the person then. Luna always visits when someone exalts as a Lunar. TUS only gives a small message for the Zenith caste. But isn't limited to that.

So my guess is that the person has the choice. To choose which path to go down. I doubt TUS or Luna would force exaltation on someone who didn't want it.

[JeenLeen]

If the power levels of the deities aren't too different in 3rd edition from 2nd, I'd guess that Solar one would win if they 'fought' over the human due to TUS being more powerful than Luna. At least, more directly powerful.

I don't know the 3rd edition lore, but I could see something like the person has both. Thus, access to both Solar and Lunar charms plus the inherent abilities of both. Probably overpowered for a PC, but a neat concept for an NPC.

[Jay R]

When two companies wanted to hire me at the same time, I would choose which offer to accept.
If two women were interested in me at the same time, I would choose who to date.
When two D&D groups want me to join them for a Saturday afternoon game, I decide whose house to drive to.
When two colleges admitted me, I chose which one to attend.

Why would this be any different? [And how?]

[Friv]

When two companies wanted to hire me at the same time, I would choose which offer to accept.
If two women were interested in me at the same time, I would choose who to date.
When two D&D groups want me to join them for a Saturday afternoon game, I decide whose house to drive to.
When two colleges admitted me, I chose which one to attend.

Why would this be any different? [And how?]

Well, in all of those examples you have a choice in the matter. I don't think it's possible to turn down becoming Exalted. You aren't being hired, you're being picked.

[The Random NPC]

When two companies wanted to hire me at the same time, I would choose which offer to accept.
If two women were interested in me at the same time, I would choose who to date.
When two D&D groups want me to join them for a Saturday afternoon game, I decide whose house to drive to.
When two colleges admitted me, I chose which one to attend.

Why would this be any different? [And how?]

If two different states want to try you for crimes, you don't get to choose which state tries you.

[houlio]

I thought at first this would lead to two different situations, but I think they actually fold into each other. I realized after a few minutes that they are both same but that they focus on different perspectives (he divine and the mortal) on essentially the same thing.

Essentially the two different Incarnae have some sort of contest, ala God, Satan, and Job, to see who their Chosen drifts to. Not that the person would have the same things happen to them as the biblical story, but that an "average" person would find their life suddenly having a lot of supernatural attention on it, and that attention demanding a response from them. I think the exact nature of that attention would vary a lot on the chosen in particular as well as the Incarnae involved, but I imagine it should be all about the mortal making clear and distinct choices between two different things. What is appealing to me about this is that I think the outcome doesn't have to step on any toes in particular, which makes it playable at least to me. "Luna got this one, well I guess this mortal didn't have what it takes to be a Chosen of Battles" says Mars at the end of the day.

[Jay R]

If two different states want to try you for crimes, you don't get to choose which state tries you.

Oh, very good point.

But I think it's not sufficiently analogous. In the Exalted case, both Incarnae are trying to honor you. If two states want to give me a medal, I do get to choose which ceremony to attend.

But you still make a valid point, requiring me to refine my analogy and explain it better.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But I think it's not sufficiently analogous. In the Exalted case, both Incarnae are trying to honor you. If two states want to give me a medal, I do get to choose which ceremony to attend.
But if you're important enough, the very act of choosing can ruffle feathers. If you think mere mortals can get prissy over being "snubbed..."

[Jay R]

But if you're important enough, the very act of choosing can ruffle feathers. If you think mere mortals can get prissy over being "snubbed..."

Of course. The whole reason to set up this situation is to force a PC to snub a powerful being.

DMs are supposed to put players in dangerous positions.

[GrayDeath]

In the Old Lore, this would not happen, as Solars exalt before/during the heroic Deed, and Lunars afterwards.

In the (fluffwise meh to horrible, if mechanically clearly superior) 3rd Edition though....phew....more difficult#.

I am going with "unless very specific circumstances are against it, Solar", as TUS is simply Lunas Superior in everything but Shapeshifting.

[Mutazoia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxfJnX0SFWM

[Morty]

Considering how rare both Solar and Lunar Exaltations are... the chance of both the deities picking the same mortal is pretty vanishingly small. If it were to happen, I could honestly see it going either way. Lunar Exaltation is a lot more varied, as Luna meets each of their Chosen in a variety of shapes and guises. It also places less emphasis on the "great deed" part, though Solar Exaltation doesn't require it, either. You could say the Sun's superior strength would overpower Luna, or that Luna's mercurial trickster nature would win over.

[Anymage]

I could go either way on either agreeing to a contest between the two of them to see which one the mortal seems appropriate to (which will have the effect of making the mortal's life exceptionally interesting), or straight up giving the mortal a choice. If a mortal did something so impressive that they get multiple offers for exaltation, without having already been exalted for awesomeness by that point, the incarnae might well think their input had merit. Storywise I'd be slightly more inclined to have them be tested, just because that creates more interesting conflict.

While Sol could probably win if it turned into a contest of who could stuff their exaltation into the mortal harder, incarnae rarely duke it out amongst themselves and their primary pastime is gaming. Being so crude and direct doesn't seem to be their style.

[Elricaltovilla]

They would settle their disagreement with a round of the Games of Divinity, then both would get so distracted by the game that they forget about the mortal in question, who then fails to exalt at the appropriate time and dies as a result, leaving them open to an abyssal or infernal exaltation...

[noob]

The two incarnae see the person then decide "That person is too much awesome for exaltation he is Chuck Norris"

[Lord Raziere]

I'm just looking at this thread and marveling at how it somehow keeps coming back despite its low post count. liking the funny responses people keep coming up with. I got nothing. I thought this thread would be dead by now, but no its still going. kudos little thread, your still going and you give better answers than the official response- which was basically "we're not answering that.".

[Telwar]

They would settle their disagreement with a round of the Games of Divinity, then both would get so distracted by the game that they forget about the mortal in question, who then fails to exalt at the appropriate time and dies as a result, leaving them open to an abyssal or infernal exaltation...

I know this is sarcastic, but I feel like this is also what'd actually happen.

[Elricaltovilla]

I know this is sarcastic, but I feel like this is also what'd actually happen.

It's only sarcastic because I don't know exalted lore well enough to make a serious reply.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thats a 2eism. I'm talking about 3e. Exaltations are not shards in 3e.
Wait, I just noticed this. What are they in 3e?

[Morty]

I think they're just a sort of divine fire or gift without any specified form.

[Lord Raziere]

I think they're just a sort of divine fire or gift without any specified form.

Yup, something like this. Devs have said that exaltations are a black box and that the shard thing is gone. the deities DO directly choose now, but the deities now are more mysterious about how. they really didn't like how 2e made them sound like machines or whatever.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yup, something like this. Devs have said that exaltations are a black box and that the shard thing is gone. the deities DO directly choose now, but the deities now are more mysterious about how. they really didn't like how 2e made them sound like machines or whatever.
I dunno, I kind of liked the idea of a literal metaphysical mantle being passed from Exalt to Exalt. I also may have used that idea in setting up my 3e campaign... oh well, too late now! #mycanonnow

[Morty]

I dunno, I kind of liked the idea of a literal metaphysical mantle being passed from Exalt to Exalt. I also may have used that idea in setting up my 3e campaign... oh well, too late now! #mycanonnow

It's still a mantle passing from Exalt to Exalt. It's just a little more metaphorical than describing it as a shard would imply.

[Lord Raziere]

It's still a mantle passing from Exalt to Exalt. It's just a little more metaphorical than describing it as a shard would imply.

Yeah, the Exaltations are still at the same number of people and still have memories of past lives, they just don't tell you whats underneath the power you get. there is no hard word on how the process of exaltation goes on behind the scenes so to speak, other than that the deity somehow chooses, the person somehow gets Exalted as like 2e, but there is no physical component that can be taken and used for something else.

like, their concern was not to eliminate the mantle thing or anything mystical, their concern was eliminating questions about players abusing what they know about the 2e process of Exaltation to say, beat up the guy who cleans the Exaltations, capture the shards for yourself, then being experimenting on them for your own purposes because Exaltations aren't supposed to be empirically broken down like that. the change is to keep it mystical and important to their perspective.

quite simply according to the devs, asking how Exaltations work in too much detail is focusing on the wrong thing and is unimportant to the game, and have a hard line stance against answering anything about them other than "they're black boxes don't worry about it."

so yeah you can say your own canon is that they are still shards, its just there is a considered reason why shards are no longer a thing, much like with many 2e science-like stuff. they just don't like too much magitech in Exalted, they don't think it fits with the default setting if its used too much, and to them the shard explanation for how Exaltations work was another form of magitech just going too far. these days, I'm just like "whatever man, I have godbound now and its magitech to the nines, in ways that all of Exalted 2e could only dream of."

[lightningcat]

Unless it has completely changed, the Maidens claim dibs on a person they want to Exalt when they are born, which makes them the most likely to compete over a single person. UC is likely to let them have it unless there is an overwhelming reason otherwise. Likewise, he is likely to let Luna choose the mortal, as unlike Theron he does not have to assert his authority. Luna on the other hand is rather likely to steal a mortal from the Maidens if the person impresses her. She gets a new deserving chosen, and she throws careful laid plans into chaos, which is a double win.
Now the real question is how do the Maidens choose if they come into conflict with each other? Do they look into the future and use the choice that will be made? Do they ask Sol for an impartial opinion? Do they have a tally of previous times this occured, and attempt to keep it in balance? Do they throw it to the Games to decide?