How strong would be a modern soldier in a fantasy setting?

[Selion]

I mean, what CR would you give to a full equipped modern soldier?
Let's take a USA marine as example, they're equipped with an M16, which has the following features (wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle)):
Rate of fire:
700–950 rounds/min cyclic sustained
45–60 rounds/min semi-automatic
(note that box magazine is from 20 to 100 rounds, usually they shot in 3 rounds series, i guess a 3 round serie could be considered a standard attack)
Effective firing range
550 m (601 yd) (point target)[16]
800 m (875 yd) (area target)[17]

Some models are usually equipped with a grenade launcher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M203_grenade_launcher), which also has impressive range, comparing to d&d standards.

They are well trained in melee combat and I guess their body armor would confer a good protection against melee weapons, though a magic sword would probably be effective.
What I've trouble with is their physical stats, I consider D&D characters super heroes: to have a comparison, a black bear has 32 HPs, i don't think it would be fair giving to a common human more than 15-20 HPs (which would make them level 2-3 by D&D standards).

BONUS QUESTION: What about an attack chopper? Would it be able to take down a adult dragon?

[Conradine]

In my opinion, it would be able to take down opponents up to CR 6. Mabye even more, if the opponents are giants or dire beasts. A good DR would be his bane.

Modern artillery would take down everything unable to become incorporeal.

[Malroth]

Lv 3 Elite Array Expert (better nutrition than medieval peasants better education)
Weapon equivalent to a +5 Mighty 3 Brilliant energy Splitting Distance greatbow.
Gains Darkvision from gear


My guess would be CR5 after adjustment for unusual equipment. Can kill from far outside the range of even long range spells but is completely shut down by fog, darkness, invisibility, illusions, or wind wall. Also Poor will saves.

[DodermanDefense]

Provided we're using d20 Modern, then the modern soldier would have a CR based on his/her level. While modern firearms and materials certainly are superior to those used in most fantasy settings, there is nothing in the training of a marine that prepares them to deal with magic or a breath weapon.
If that soldier is a level 1-3 (probably a conservative guess for rank and file guys) then you could expect them to perform about as well as fighter or a wizard of the same level.
Sure, the weapon is powerful, but it's ammunition dependent. Can he get more after he runs out? Grenades and modern medicine would be finite as well. And modern medicine isn't anywhere near as good as evencure light wounds.
Moving on to armor- modern body armor excels at slowing and stopping bullets and shrapnel from explosions, but really ain't the greatest against blades (without plates, which are VERY heavy).
If we're talking about a ranged battle, one where magic isn't involved, then my money is on the modern soldier. That said, he's going to very quickly run out of supplies.
When it comes to dragon vs helicopter, that's again a highly situational outcome. If the chopper crew are a bunch of elite aces, and the dragon is a wyrmling, then the helicopter is going to turn the dragon to swiss cheese. If the chopper crew are a bunch of n00bs, and the dragon is even a little mature, the chopper's going down.
You do know there's an entire modern setting, right? And you also know that there are d20-compatible stats for things like modern weapons and armor, right?

[DodermanDefense]

In my opinion, it would be able to take down opponents up to CR 6. Mabye even more, if the opponents are giants or dire beasts. A good DR would be his bane.

Modern artillery would take down everything unable to become incorporeal.

Modern artillery would be useless against any character with Evasion and a decent Reflex save. Same with automatic firearms and grenades.

[DodermanDefense]

Lv 3 Elite Array Expert (better nutrition than medieval peasants better education)
Weapon equivalent to a +5 Mighty 3 Brilliant energy Splitting Distance greatbow.
Gains Darkvision from gear


My guess would be CR5 after adjustment for unusual equipment. Can kill from far outside the range of even long range spells but is completely shut down by fog, darkness, invisibility, illusions, or wind wall. Also Poor will saves.

Not so much Darkvision, much more like lowlight if you're talking about NVGs. Which are battery dependent. More like lowlight vision without peripheral vision.
Not sure where the ridiculous magic bow stats come from. M-16 looks like this...
M-16; 2d8 damage, 20x2crit, 80ft range increment, 30-round box magazine.
Average soldier (even with elite array) would likely have around a +4 or +5 to hit with it.
An impressive weapon and a dangerous opponent, but not an invincible one.

[Eldan]

I mean, that's the stats that d20 modern gives them, but I'm not sure those stats can be exactly transfered. For example, I rather doubt that a modern assault rifle really only deals twice the damage a bow does. And not even per shot, but in six seconds. And the d20 armor system is really wonky too, how much is chainmail really going to help against a rifle? Would it realistically turn 20% of hits harmless?

[Silvercrys]

I mean, what CR would you give to a full equipped modern soldier?
Let's take a USA marine as example, they're equipped with an M16, which has the following features (wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle)):
Rate of fire:
700–950 rounds/min cyclic sustained
45–60 rounds/min semi-automatic
(note that box magazine is from 20 to 100 rounds, usually they shot in 3 rounds series, i guess a 3 round serie could be considered a standard attack)
Effective firing range
550 m (601 yd) (point target)[16]
800 m (875 yd) (area target)[17]

Some models are usually equipped with a grenade launcher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M203_grenade_launcher), which also has impressive range, comparing to d&d standards.

They are well trained in melee combat and I guess their body armor would confer a good protection against melee weapons, though a magic sword would probably be effective.
What I've trouble with is their physical stats, I consider D&D characters super heroes: to have a comparison, a black bear has 32 HPs, i don't think it would be fair giving to a common human more than 15-20 HPs (which would make them level 2-3 by D&D standards).

BONUS QUESTION: What about an attack chopper? Would it be able to take down a adult dragon?Yeah, I mean, you could try to model real world weapons based on the stats they have in the real world, but I agree with Doderman, I'd just use the stats from d20 Modern. The game isn't really a simulation of real life, DnD characters are closer to superheroes than medieval soldiers and fighting a modern soldier with a gun wouldn't be much different than fighting a ranger a bow or something.

I'd probably allow the modern soldier to use d20 Modern rules for automatic weapons attacking an area and stuff like that, but I wouldn't try to "simulate" a modern era machine gun by giving it the stats of a magic longbow with Splitting.

The Modern SRD is here (http://www.d20resources.com/).

[Efrate]

Do not mix d and d and real life on a mechanical level. Full stop. Never works. By the rules yes you can negate an assault rifle 20 per cent of the time with chainmail. You are not THAT good as a modern soldier in comparison, and a level 5 practicing expert craftsman can take a 3 round burst in center of mass and be mostly unaffected and healed fully in a few days. With no armor.

[Telonius]

They had some sci-fi-ish weapons in Return to Temple of the Frog. That might be a good start for modeling modern weaponry.

[Willie the Duck]

Provided we're using d20 Modern, then the modern soldier would have a CR based on his/her level. While modern firearms and materials certainly are superior to those used in most fantasy settings, there is nothing in the training of a marine that prepares them to deal with magic or a breath weapon.

Original GammaWorld had this thing where you could port your character into a D&D game and/or a D&D character into a GammaWorld game. Thing is, everyone from GammaWorld didn't have saving throw scores... and they failed any save they were presented with (which emulated them being systematically unprepared for a world with magic). Likewise, the D&D characters had no resilience to GammaWorld's radiation-induced mutation effects.


Not so much Darkvision, much more like lowlight if you're talking about NVGs. Which are battery dependent.

I'm assuming we are talking about a soldier magically summoned for a fight, not one who has wound up in the D&D world and has to figure out how to exist without modern resupply. Once you do that, it becomes a one of those Robinson Crusoe 'how much of the modern world could you recreate?' scenarios (which are their own kind of fun, but which don't intersect much with how much D&D damage a M16 would deal).

[DodermanDefense]

Do not mix d and d and real life on a mechanical level. Full stop. Never works. By the rules yes you can negate an assault rifle 20 per cent of the time with chainmail. You are not THAT good as a modern soldier in comparison, and a level 5 practicing expert craftsman can take a 3 round burst in center of mass and be mostly unaffected and healed fully in a few days. With no armor.

Everyone always forgets that in Modern, massive damage is your constitution score. That means that m-16 on 3-round burst has a very good chance of dealing massive damage to a level 5 of any class.
Having said that, mixing your modern and fantasy, or fantasy and sci-fi, must be a carefully calculated move. Sensibilities and tastes of individual groups should be considered.

[Selion]

I read a lot of people are quoting d&d modern, I think these are rules balanced to represent modern battles, not modern vs fantasy battles.
Pathfinder, for example, has firearms rules, in that ruleset a 1600 age mosquete neglets any kind of armor (even magical ones) at 30 ft.
I didn't ask for a simulation, I'm just trying figuring out in a narrative perspective how much dungerous a modern soldier would be if placed in a fantasy world.
I agree with the CR 5-6 guess, i think 4 level 5 PCs would be evenly matched with 4 marine soldiers, if magic is used in a smart way
Level 7-8 would be overkill on the fantasy part, IMHO, spells like improved invisibility and dimension door would easily dispatch the modern group.

[Silvercrys]

They had some sci-fi-ish weapons in Return to Temple of the Frog. That might be a good start for modeling modern weaponry.They have rules for bog standard modern firearms in the DMG, I'm pretty sure, though they aren't part of the SRD. It's basically the same as d20 modern weapon stats without the automatic fire rules, though, as I recall.

Thinking more, if you want stats for armed helicopters you'll probably have to build them using the d20 Future Starship rules or something because they only have an unarmed Blackhawk in the actual SRD. But you could also just take the Blackhawk stats, bump the Hardness to 10 and/or the HP a bit, and give it a rocket launcher and heavy machine gun from the heavy weapons list.

It could probably take a wyrmling or very young dragon with those stats (46 HP, Hardness 10, AC 6, Size Gargantuan, Machine Gun deals 2d12 damage and Rocket deals 10d6). It'll take a few uses of the dragon's breath weapon to shoot the helicopter down and the helicopter can probably outmaneuver it in the air because the dragons have pretty bad maneuverability. 2-3 rockets should get the job done, or a few combat rounds of shooting it with the machine gun (kills the dragon in 4 hits on average, dragon has a hard time breaking the helicopter's hardness and dies before it gets a second breath weapon off). Young and Young Adult are a bit of a crap shoot, think the Young Dragon is evenly matched and the Young Adult probably has the edge. They still have a bit of trouble breaking hardness 10 and they still need 2-3 breath weapons to kill the helicopter, but they're sacks of hit points so the helicopter needs closer to ten rockets and a whole lot more machine gun.

Past that, though, pretty sure dragon takes over. An Adult Blue nearly destroys the helicopter with just the average damage on its first breath weapon use and handily breaks Hardness 10 with its attacks on anything other than minimum damage rolls and has over 200 HP, meaning if the first breath weapon doesn't outright destroy the helicopter it doesn't have the firepower to destroy the dragon before the second one comes up unless it does nothing but shoot rockets each round, never misses, and rolls high on its damage rolls. Anything older than adult is a pure stomp in the dragon's favor.

As an aside, the modern soldier is probably CR+1 due to equipment like his weapons dealing really high base damage at longer range increments and being able to attack areas.

Edit: If you really wanted you could them touch attacks against medieval armored opponents within the first range increment, I don't think it's really necessary though. Pathfinder's firearms deal the same damage as bows but hit more often, d20 modern's guns deal more damage and hit the same amount, it's just different ways of emulating the same thing. Should probably drop one of the weapon's damage dice (2d12 becomes 1d12, etc.) if you do that, though.

Edit 2: Our modern soldiers are probably the equivalent of level 4-6 characters in d20 modern anyway, how "dangerous" they are depends mainly on how accurate they are and how many hit points they have when you simulate them. Using the d20 modern rules and giving them 5 class levels makes them... about the equivalent of level 5 PCs. Sounds about right, yeah?

[Telonius]

For an older Dragon, I'm thinking it gets next to the helicopter, and grabs on to the bottom with its claw. Then it Alternate Forms or Polymorphs into a human, chucks the pilot out, and flies it back to its hoard.

[Calthropstu]

On the soldier, he'd be a cr 6 with the grenade launcher attachment. Similar in power to a fireball, that's about where I expect it to be.

On the helicopter, depends on type. The helicopter would absolutely beat them on manueverability. It also beats them on speed. A fly speed of 250 means about 28 mph. Double moving gets about twice that but then you're doing nothing. Compare that to a 150 mph speed for an apache and that dragon will very rarely be in a position to attack it.

It also depends on armaments. A forward facing 50 calibre machine gun would easily pound through those scales. Likewise, missiles would do considerable damage.

But for the dragon, it woud all depend on spells. Some spells would make the helicopter irrelevant.

[Psyren]

A modern soldier wouldn't get very far up before running into things they'd have trouble dealing with. A sci-fi soldier on the other hand (e.g. the one from Starfinder...)



In my opinion, it would be able to take down opponents up to CR 6. Mabye even more, if the opponents are giants or dire beasts. A good DR would be his bane.

Modern artillery would take down everything unable to become incorporeal.

Modern artillery would be useless against any character with Evasion and a decent Reflex save. Same with automatic firearms and grenades.

Don't forget regeneration, DR, energy resistance/immunity...

Hell, even high natural armor or deflection bonuses might be a problem before long.

[Elves]

I think D&D magic and modern tech don't overlap that much in the kind of utility they provide. A mailman's souped up blasting spells are probably fairly competitive with modern missiles, and healing magic renders much of medicine moot, but overall I think the two complement each other more than directly opposing, so a combat between them might not be the most relevant way to look at it.

[Psyren]

I think D&D magic and modern tech don't overlap that much in the kind of utility they provide. A mailman's souped up blasting spells are probably fairly competitive with modern missiles, and healing magic renders much of medicine moot, but overall I think the two complement each other more than directly opposing, so a combat between them might not be the most relevant way to look at it.

I think it's less "can a human soldier take on a human wizard" and more "how far into the monster manual could a soldier get before running into something they couldn't handle?"

(The quick answer is "not far" since Shadows are CR3, but that's where we start layering on stipulations like "how far can they get vs. corporeal enemies" etc.)

[druid91]

I mean, just going straight math using stone as a commonality in both worlds, a .50 BMG round is dealing 13,868 damage a shot...

With 120 shots every six seconds you're putting out well over a million damage a turn.

[Lapak]

Others have given you various answers based on game stats as-is, but to answer the thread title in another way: extremely strong right up until they weren't.

Modern soldiers even more than ancient ones are built on a foundation of logistics and supply. The first few ogres our soldier ran into, they'd take apart with the M-16, but then they'd be out of ammo and have no way to gain more. The more modern the soldier and their equipment, the tighter the tolerances for replacements become; a musket can deal with a reasonably broad range of quality in bullets and powder, but a modern assault rifle demands a much narrower window for both. And the same is true of replacement parts.

(The same is true but even more so for an attack helicopter, which can burn through its ammo absurdly fast to deal with a threat, but even if it didn't would be grounded before long for lack of fuel.)

[King of Nowhere]

Do not mix d and d and real life on a mechanical level. Full stop. Never works. By the rules yes you can negate an assault rifle 20 per cent of the time with chainmail. You are not THAT good as a modern soldier in comparison, and a level 5 practicing expert craftsman can take a 3 round burst in center of mass and be mostly unaffected and healed fully in a few days. With no armor.

you can mix them. you just have to accept that D&D characters are superheroes. Once you accept that your fighter20 can charge at an infantry platoon, dodge half the bullets with supernatural speed and reflexes, more bullets get deflected by his ring of protection, some bounce off his armor because the armor is heavily enchanted to the point that's much stronger than kevlar, and those bullets that actually hit the fighter will bounce off his skin dealing mild laceration because this guy has superhuman (supernatural) resilience, and then he'll cleave in two a tank with his sword because the guy has superhuman strenght and the sword is so powerfully enchanted it may well be a lightsaber... well, once you accept that, you can mix up realism and d&d pretty well.

realism is about being consistent.

that said, what kind of stats to give the soldier? I agree on the level 2-3 expert or warrior with elite stats, because of training and schooling and nutrition. Actually, if we set to BAB 0 the basic level of a middle age commoner, the soldier may well be up to 5th level easily, except for the hit points (I mean, how many skill points do you get going to school for a decade, compared to someone who spent that time as an agricultural manual laborer? the answer can't be just 2).

Prsonally, to model firearms and their capacity to punch through medieval armor, I gave them an armor penetration factor. For a modern combat rifle, that factor may be around 8-10: even full plate is negligible, but stack some enchantment or add natural armor underneath, and it's going to stop a few bullets. A better model would also consider range; for example, the armor penetration decreases by 1 for every range increment. bbut it becomes more complicated.
with this mechanic, modern weapons fare very well against most monsters who rely on natural armor for protection. but it's fairly realistic. take for example a tyrannosaurus, CR 8; bullets would still hurt it pretty well, and assuming he's got a couple rounds before getting eaten, a modern soldier should easily put it down with repeated bursts. A small squad of soldiers could dispatch even a 12-headed hydra or similar big brutes easily.

As far as modern armor, as others have said, it's not good against a sword because it leaves a lot of skin exposed. I'd compare it to a chain shirt or breastplate, but with an armor penetration resistance factor, that would make it useful against firearms.

the rest of the equipment gives some nice perks (gps: automatic success on survival checks to figure out your position. infrared: darkvision, with a -10 to spot because you have limited visual field with it, smoke grenades cast fog, camouflage suit gives +5 to hide), but nothing specially relevant for a battle.

Ultimately, the major advantage of modern weaponry is range. if the soldier has the time to see the monster coming and pelt it with bullets, he can take down anything that doesn't have damage reduction.

however, the presence of magic introduces several weaknesses that can easily be exploited. an incorporeal monster would be immune to bullets (fire damage still works 50% of the times, so explosions ought to be effective). a modern army would have nothing against invisibility (unless infrared detects invisibility). A smoke grenade would probably allow detection of an invisible foe, but nothing stops an invisible wizard from dominating the general, or casting cloudkill in the middle of the barracks.

On the other hand, if you can support your modern soldiers with some low level casters, this changes the game. magic weapon on bulllets overcome incorporeal enemies and most damage reductions. epurate invisibility and similar spells counter most of the magic tricks that would nullify a mundane army. With that, you can take down anything except the tarrasque. and artillery makes minced meat of that one too.

Back to the original question, a challenge rating... difficult to assess, because the strenght of a modern soldier is very situational. Around 5 seems appropriate, but it's much harder if he sees you coming from afar, and much easier if you can use magic to go around it.

[Asmotherion]

Consider him a Fighter of his level with optimised equipment.

Extra Poinst if he can reliably use an AMF (so a high UMD) and perhaps bestow the property to his amunition?

[Elves]

Elite array for elite soldiers, maybe. 10 is the human average in general, not the average of a malnourished peasant, and I don't think there are references to boosting your Int score through education.

[Efrate]

Magic fire has a 50% chance to hurt incorporeal. Normal fire does not. A shadow or an allip Just floats through nukes, hydrogen bombs, and artillery.

[Crichton]

I mean, just going straight math using stone as a commonality in both worlds, a .50 BMG round is dealing 13,868 damage a shot...

With 120 shots every six seconds you're putting out well over a million damage a turn.



I'd love to see the math for your damage calculations. Not disagreeing, it's just that you didn't provide any detail, and I'm apparently missing the connection.


Also, the 6 second round isn't necessarily 6 seconds worth of attack for every character. It's 6 seconds for all the participants, but considering it takes a fighter(level 1 to 5 anyway, while his BAB is <6.) one round to do one attack with a sword, it's safe to say our soldier isn't just pumping out full automatic fire for 6 full seconds.

Never mind that the magazine would run out in 2 or 3 seconds(800 rounds per minute=13.3 rounds per second, and the mag is typically 30 rounds), and the gun's gas tube(the tube that routes some of the expanding gas from firing a round, using the energy to cycle the bolt and reload for the next shot) would probably melt after around 200 or so rounds on full auto without a break, assuming you somehow had a magazine that large.

Much safer to assume 3 or 4 three round bursts, which is a more standard use for an M16 anyway. It's a rifle, not a machine gun. Now if our soldier was carrying an M249, things would be quite different(but even then, despite a nominal 650-850 round per minute firing rate, the 'sustained' rate of fire is stated at more like 50 rounds per minute without overheating)

[Lapak]

Magic fire has a 50% chance to hurt incorporeal. Normal fire does not. A shadow or an allip Just floats through nukes, hydrogen bombs, and artillery.I mean, there's not RAW to cover this one way or another, but all three of those probably aren't Fire as the primary damage - in fact, if anything I'd classify them as mostly Force with some Fire as a rider, which means that they would wipe incorporeal undead off the map pretty neatly.

(For people it's kind of academic whether you are instantly ashed by hotter-than-the-surface-of-the-sun fire or disintegrated by a pressure wave strong enough to rend steel and rock, but both factors are there.)

[Elves]

Force is like invisible magical forcefield energy, not physical force. Probably much of the damage would be untyped, physical, or in a new category. But there's no reason why it would affect creatures on the Ethereal or Shadow planes.

[druid91]

I'd love to see the math for your damage calculations. Not disagreeing, it's just that you didn't provide any detail, and I'm apparently missing the connection.


Also, the 6 second round isn't necessarily 6 seconds worth of attack for every character. It's 6 seconds for all the participants, but considering it takes a fighter(level 1 to 5 anyway, while his BAB is <6.) one round to do one attack with a sword, it's safe to say our soldier isn't just pumping out full automatic fire for 6 full seconds.

Never mind that the magazine would run out in 2 or 3 seconds(800 rounds per minute=13.3 rounds per second, and the mag is typically 30 rounds), and the gun's gas tube(the tube that routes some of the expanding gas from firing a round, using the energy to cycle the bolt and reload for the next shot) would probably melt after around 200 or so rounds on full auto without a break, assuming you somehow had a magazine that large.

Much safer to assume 3 or 4 three round bursts, which is a more standard use for an M16 anyway. It's a rifle, not a machine gun. Now if our soldier was carrying an M249, things would be quite different(but even then, despite a nominal 650-850 round per minute firing rate, the 'sustained' rate of fire is stated at more like 50 rounds per minute without overheating)

Mind you, I'm no mathematics expert... But...

Granite has a compressive strength of 172 lbs a cubic foot. This is it's ability to resist being compressed, like when a bullet hits it. At 172 lbf it will start to break. Anything less does little to no damage.

.50 BMG hits with around 13,310 lbf. Overcoming that Compressive strength 77 times over.

Stone, in 3.5 has a hardness of 8 and 15 Hp per inch of thickness. For a total of 180 hp per cubic foot. Multiply that by 77 then add the hardness.

[Efrate]

Direct from the srd under incorporeal subtype

"It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms".

Artillery et. al are non magical so it does not care.

Interestingly enough, srd also mentions it is only harmed by magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons. Which I think is an update and makes it not as good since its not just manufactured magic weapons anymore. Unless I am forgetting a specific rule from somewhere?

[Crichton]

Mind you, I'm no mathematics expert... But...

Granite has a compressive strength of 172 lbs a cubic foot. This is it's ability to resist being compressed, like when a bullet hits it. At 172 lbf it will start to break. Anything less does little to no damage.

.50 BMG hits with around 13,310 lbf. Overcoming that Compressive strength 77 times over.

Stone, in 3.5 has a hardness of 8 and 15 Hp per inch of thickness. For a total of 180 hp per cubic foot. Multiply that by 77 then add the hardness.

Interesting. Knowing what little bit that I do about ballistics and soft tissue damage, I'm fairly sure that's not going to be a good measure of how much damage a bullet does when striking a creature's body, in D&D rules, or in the real world. Watch some videos of bullets being fired at ballistics gel dummies in slow motion, and you'll get a better picture of how, and how much, a bullet damages a body.

[druid91]

Probably. I was more trying to translate the Damage into something contextual.

[Celestia]

I'd say that a good analogue for a modern soldier would be a level 3-5 ranger. Full BAB, lots of skill points, bonus feats, and not too many HPs. I think it fits quite well.

[Crichton]

Probably. I was more trying to translate the Damage into something contextual.

Fair enough. Fire a bullet at a small thin piece of stone, and sure, you might see effects like that. Fire on at a person sized chunk of granite, though, and you'll likely do little more than chip away a small bit.



What really changes things, in attempting to model bullet damage into D&D, is what type of ammunition the soldier is firing. Hollow points would do a tremendous amount of damage to unarmored flesh, but would struggle against plate armor. Jacketed or armor-piercing rounds would tear through even the toughest plate armor (in the thicknesses that are feasible to make armor out of that people can actually wear) and still damage the person, but to a degree more akin to an arrow wound or thin bladed stab wound, since the projectile won't break up and shred the flesh as much. Couple all that with a 3 round burst that is pretty darn tightly grouped, so most likely all 3 rounds hit within a couple inches of each other, and the amount of damage is pretty great. Not millions of HP/round, but way, way more than any projectile from any medium sized ranged weapon I know of in the rules, with way more effectiveness against armor and much faster and more accurate firing, not to mention ranges of several times what things like longbows have.


Also, I'd probably advocate for firearms in D&D rolling hit vs Touch AC, or denying Dex to AC, or maybe both, for armor-piercing rounds at least, seeing as how, unlike other projectiles in the game, bullets travel far too fast to observe or even attempt to dodge. You can try to get out of the way of an opponent who's aiming a gun at you, but once that bullet is on the way on a trajectory that intercepts where your body is right now, dodging is pretty much out of the question. The muzzle velocity of an average round from an M16 is 3150ft/s, which is 2147 miles/hour or, in D&D terms, 3780 squares per round. Even at an extreme range (for D&D that is; a modern rifle can maintain accuracy for thousands of feet) of, say, 300 feet, that means the bullet is only traveling for 0.09 seconds (which is approximately one 66th of a round, in D&D combat time).


If I was gonna just toss up an estimate off the top of my head, I'd put a single shot from an M16 at something like 2d8 or maybe 3d8(Double or triple what a Medium Longbow does doesn't seem excessive, really, perhaps even too low, considering a comparison of gunshot wounds vs arrow punctures), with a fairly high crit range and multiplier (headshots and vital organs, combined with the accuracy of the weapon), say maybe 17-20/x4 or such, and say it denies Dex to AC, with Armor Piercing rounds doing one die less damage, but also hitting Touch AC, and a range increment of maybe 200ft for an unscoped model, and 400 ft for a scoped model. Exotic Weapon, of course, but also probably at least Masterwork, seeing as how even a basic model rifle takes way more precise manufacturing than what one would consider a masterwork bow. No STR to damage, of course, but maybe Dex to damage? I think I'd also apply the Rapid Shot feat for free to the weapon, but require the wielder to still take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as normal if they want those effects.

3 round burst would just be 3x that, or maybe 3 separate attack rolls, if you really wanted to, with each roll after the first having a -1 to attack. Problem with that is that all the bullets would hit within a couple inches of each other, so if one crits, realistically they all would, most likely.



Just my 2 cents. Not gonna weigh in on the extended availability of ammunition or effectiveness vs magical defenses or any of that.

[King of Nowhere]

Probably. I was more trying to translate the Damage into something contextual.

but you took something very arbitrary. you take the hardness values and hit points of other rocks and compare that with their compressive strenght, you get different values of how much an hp is worth every time. generally speaking, hit points of objects are one of those things for which the game isn't very consistent.
Plus, you can break stone with a hand-held pick or mallet. By your method of calculation, those would do hundreds of damage too.

One better way of estimating bullet damage is by asking yourself, what are the odds that a guy can survive being hit by one of those, and then compare with how many sword stabs are needed to get a similar survival percentage. by that account, I'd estimate such a projective at 4 or 5 d8

[druid91]

but you took something very arbitrary. you take the hardness values and hit points of other rocks and compare that with their compressive strenght, you get different values of how much an hp is worth every time. generally speaking, hit points of objects are one of those things for which the game isn't very consistent.
Plus, you can break stone with a hand-held pick or mallet. By your method of calculation, those would do hundreds of damage too.

One better way of estimating bullet damage is by asking yourself, what are the odds that a guy can survive being hit by one of those, and then compare with how many sword stabs are needed to get a similar survival percentage. by that account, I'd estimate such a projective at 4 or 5 d8

That's the thing. Getting shot and getting stabbeds lethality have to do with WHERE you get shot or stabbed. What parts of you get broken. It's very much a subjective thing. Breaking a single material... Is fairly straightforward.

Also, you can deal damage to a stone with a pick or hand mallet. It's going to take a lot longer than smacking it with .50 BMG rounds. A single shot with .50 BMG will drill into the rock.

The idea is simple. Can you destroy a rock with .50 BMG? Yes.

Mind you, I would say that modern firearms cannot be accurately simulated in D&D without fundemental changes to the rest of the system as the assumptions of the system prevent it.

They are a fundementally out of context problem.

https://youtu.be/rF8ieTby4VI

For guns vs a rock.

[Silvercrys]

It's pretty unfair to be trying to force modern firearms to conform with reality when DnD doesn't do the same to fantasy weapons and armor.

You can't reverse engineer bullet damage from how much damage it deals to real world concrete or say it ought to hit them if you hit AC 10 versus all targets because it's fast -- dodging or catching a crossbow bolt from less than 30 feet away is almost impossible, too, but we still add Dex to AC against those.

If you just want modern firearms to be completely superior to every other option, that's fine, I guess, but trying to introduce realism to justify it doesn't really make sense. It's like complaining that a raging Barbarian is stronger than a Brown Bear and could win a grapple/wrestling match with one when that's basically impossible for a human, or that a Monk can fall 60 feet without taking any falling damage, or that a 5th level character with max ranks in Jump can consistently beat the Olympic record while carrying 50 lbs of gear (Strength score depending).

Realism left the building around level 3 in DnD land.

[Crake]

I mean, that's the stats that d20 modern gives them, but I'm not sure those stats can be exactly transfered. For example, I rather doubt that a modern assault rifle really only deals twice the damage a bow does. And not even per shot, but in six seconds. And the d20 armor system is really wonky too, how much is chainmail really going to help against a rifle? Would it realistically turn 20% of hits harmless?

The listed damage is indeed for a single shot, not a gun on burst or full auto, those firing modes have different rules. Burst I believe does an extra damage dice of damage, so it would be 3d8, and full auto affects an area rather than one creature, if memory serves me correct.

Another thing to note on the damage is how d20 modern handles massive damage. The threshold for massive damage is actually your constitution score, so if you have 14 con, and that 3d8 burst fire rolls a 16 all up, you need to save vs massive damage, meaning you can quite possibly drop from the first volley (also note that failing vs massive damage in d20 modern doesn't kill you outright, it drops you to -1). It makes cover and not getting hit in the first place much more important than simply having a high hp pool and just soaking all the damage.


What really changes things, in attempting to model bullet damage into D&D, is what type of ammunition the soldier is firing.

I believe d20 modern does also have rules for ammo types.

[druid91]

It's pretty unfair to be trying to force modern firearms to conform with reality when DnD doesn't do the same to fantasy weapons and armor.

You can't reverse engineer bullet damage from how much damage it deals to real world concrete or say it ought to hit them if you hit AC 10 versus all targets because it's fast -- dodging or catching a crossbow bolt from less than 30 feet away is almost impossible, too, but we still add Dex to AC against those.

If you just want modern firearms to be completely superior to every other option, that's fine, I guess, but trying to introduce realism to justify it doesn't really make sense. It's like complaining that a raging Barbarian is stronger than a Brown Bear and could win a grapple/wrestling match with one when that's basically impossible for a human, or that a Monk can fall 60 feet without taking any falling damage, or that a 5th level character with max ranks in Jump can consistently beat the Olympic record while carrying 50 lbs of gear (Strength score depending).

Realism left the building around level 3 in DnD land.

I'd posit that realism was never in the building. It just takes until about level 3 to search that building and figure it out.

But yes, part of modern guns mystique and what makes them cool is the sheer destructive power. A heavy machinegun is going to rip straight through a brick wall and kill whoever is on the other side no problem. D&D isn't about that sort of combat, so that makes Modern Firearms an out of context weapon for them.

[Selion]

It's pretty unfair to be trying to force modern firearms to conform with reality when DnD doesn't do the same to fantasy weapons and armor.

You can't reverse engineer bullet damage from how much damage it deals to real world concrete or say it ought to hit them if you hit AC 10 versus all targets because it's fast -- dodging or catching a crossbow bolt from less than 30 feet away is almost impossible, too, but we still add Dex to AC against those.

If you just want modern firearms to be completely superior to every other option, that's fine, I guess, but trying to introduce realism to justify it doesn't really make sense. It's like complaining that a raging Barbarian is stronger than a Brown Bear and could win a grapple/wrestling match with one when that's basically impossible for a human, or that a Monk can fall 60 feet without taking any falling damage, or that a 5th level character with max ranks in Jump can consistently beat the Olympic record while carrying 50 lbs of gear (Strength score depending).

Realism left the building around level 3 in DnD land.

The question is not if a realistic medieval soldier could take a realistic modern soldier, forget for a second rules, you properly described a heroic fantasy setting. The question is : how much modern weaponry would be effective against a barbarian who could take dozens of arrows and win a brawl against a T-Rex?

[Conradine]

You can't reverse engineer bullet damage from how much damage it deals to real world concrete or say it ought to hit them if you hit AC 10 versus all targets because it's fast -- dodging or catching a crossbow bolt from less than 30 feet away is almost impossible, too, but we still add Dex to AC against those.

I think an high Dexterity character can leap for cover before his opponent fires the crossbow and is overall harder to aim because he moves quickly and unpredictabily.

[Zombimode]

It's pretty unfair to be trying to force modern firearms to conform with reality when DnD doesn't do the same to fantasy weapons and armor.

Pretty much.

If you don't see the hypocrisy in this, try the following: take the most extreme attack that is modeled as attack vs. (full) AC that you can find. Compare that to your assaultrifle attack. Then ask yourself if you still want to model modern firearm attacks on a different paradigm.


For instance, take an Elder Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm). A maximum force attack (that is full Power Attack) would deal 6d6+170 damage (averages at 191). If you take that its full attack routine of 4 "attacks" is could be just one "swing" that would be 24d6+680 (at a whooping +13/+8/+3/-2), for an average of 764.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

They had some sci-fi-ish weapons in Return to Temple of the Frog. That might be a good start for modeling modern weaponry.

There's also a brief section in DMG regarding black powder and energy weapons on pg146

[Endarire]

The most accurate answer is that it depends. My main concern is that, while a modern soldier can do a lot of things, he's -very- dependent upon modern infrastructure (electricity, telecommunications, the Internet, etc.) and finite ammo and fuel. Maybe he can fashion a bow and arrows or use D&D gear, but at that point he loses much of his identity as a modern soldier.

[OGDojo]

Modern d20 has rules for the M16 or at least for a basic rifle. it also has feats and equipment that align with what your saying. if you want i could build a mock up challenger and you can figure it out from there, i would just need a price on what i could buy (within reason)

[Calthropstu]

The most accurate answer is that it depends. My main concern is that, while a modern soldier can do a lot of things, he's -very- dependent upon modern infrastructure (electricity, telecommunications, the Internet, etc.) and finite ammo and fuel. Maybe he can fashion a bow and arrows or use D&D gear, but at that point he loses much of his identity as a modern soldier.

Ok, so he has been transported to a place where magic exists. First priority?

LOL CHEAT CODES. So I rig my assault rifle to go full auto, get some spells for infinite ammo, and I am a walking army buster.
Hell, I may even rig the grenade launcher with full auto because WHY NOT?
If a modern sodier is stuck in a fantasy world under 3.5 or pf rules, his first priority is to learn more. He will find out about currency, and about enchantments on weapons.
As soon as he can, he will get his gun enchanted for unlimited ammo, and will instantly become a walking powerhouse. (Imagine a wizard capable of casting at will fireball 6 - 10 times a round)
It would get fairly ridiculous pretty quick.

[Psychoalpha]

Sometimes Modern Military vs Fantasy goes like this:

https://youtu.be/2utN8GZcbpQ?t=66

Sometimes it goes like this:

https://youtu.be/AO7QvP9Bzyg?t=58

But really it's best when you get your peanut butter in the chocolate like this:

https://youtu.be/vr3xArnCuEc?t=187

NOTE: Rory is probably not safe for work, depending where you work. >_>

[SirNibbles]

I mean, what CR would you give to a full equipped modern soldier?
Let's take a USA marine as example, they're equipped with an M16, which has the following features (wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle)):
Rate of fire:
700–950 rounds/min cyclic sustained
45–60 rounds/min semi-automatic
(note that box magazine is from 20 to 100 rounds, usually they shot in 3 rounds series, i guess a 3 round serie could be considered a standard attack)
Effective firing range
550 m (601 yd) (point target)[16]
800 m (875 yd) (area target)[17]

Some models are usually equipped with a grenade launcher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M203_grenade_launcher), which also has impressive range, comparing to d&d standards.

They are well trained in melee combat and I guess their body armor would confer a good protection against melee weapons, though a magic sword would probably be effective.
What I've trouble with is their physical stats, I consider D&D characters super heroes: to have a comparison, a black bear has 32 HPs, i don't think it would be fair giving to a common human more than 15-20 HPs (which would make them level 2-3 by D&D standards).

BONUS QUESTION: What about an attack chopper? Would it be able to take down a adult dragon?

Fully equipped modern soldier? If it's a US Army infantry unit, expect them to not have the gear they need because supply and CIF 'ran out' of literally everything. I can't speak for the Marines.

[OGDojo]

Fully equipped modern soldier? If it's a US Army infantry unit, expect them to not have the gear they need because supply and CIF 'ran out' of literally everything. I can't speak for the Marines.

Sounds like you have experience lol