'Mindless' Creatures?

[PraxisVetli]

If you apply a template to a creature that would bring its mental ability scores (namely Wis and Cha in this particular scenario) to zero what happens?
Is the template not applicable?
Is the creature inert?
Mindless?
Is there a minimum score it reaches?
What happens?

[Bronk]

If you apply a template to a creature that would bring its mental ability scores (namely Wis and Cha in this particular scenario), what happens?
Is the template not applicable?
Is the creature inert?
Mindless?
Is there a minimum score it reaches?
What happens?

If you mean, bring them to zero, it would be doable, but the character would be unplayable. They would be permanently disabled unless buffed somehow.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged

[Silvercrys]

Usually there's a minimum Wis/Cha of 1 but it should say on the template. Something like "-6 Wis (minimum 1)".

I don't think you can apply the template if it would somehow cause the base creature to have a score of 0. Well, technically you could I suppose, but the resulting creature would be comatose and unable to take actions. There aren't any creatures with Wisdom or Charisma nonabilities.

Most mindless creatures like Oozes, Golems, Skeletons, and Zombies have Intelligence -- and Charisma 1, and either Wisdom 1 (Oozes) or Wisdom 10 (the others).

[DodermanDefense]

If you apply a template to a creature that would bring its mental ability scores (namely Wis and Cha in this particular scenario), what happens?
Is the template not applicable?
Is the creature inert?
Mindless?
Is there a minimum score it reaches?
What happens?

Wisdom is the ability to distinguish between things at it's basest level. Charisma is -in essence- the ability to distinguish between 'self' and 'not self,' which may help you determine what Wisdom and/or Charisma 0 should be like. Certainly, such a creature or character would be a helpless vegetable.
If I were DMing this one, I would rule that it's not possible.
Or at least, that it needs to be carefully reviewed.

[PraxisVetli]

If you mean, bring them to zero, it would be doable, but the character would be unplayable. They would be permanently disabled unless buffed somehow.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged

Yeah to zero, my bad.
That's lame.
Guess I have to invest in some stat bonuses!
I was aware what happens if they drop to 0, I guess I just hoped if a template did it, it would be minimum 1 or something.

[weckar]

I believe Mutants & Masterminds has rules for each ability score being a non-ability and what it would do, but those don't map 1-to-1 to 3.5.

[Psyren]

Yeah to zero, my bad.
That's lame.
Guess I have to invest in some stat bonuses!
I was aware what happens if they drop to 0, I guess I just hoped if a template did it, it would be minimum 1 or something.

Most of them do that, unless the ones you're thinking of are poorly written.

[PraxisVetli]

Most of them do that, unless the ones you're thinking of are poorly written.

Most of them do which, drop it to zero, or minimum 1?

Mineral Warrior, is the template in question.

[RatElemental]

I believe Mutants & Masterminds has rules for each ability score being a non-ability and what it would do, but those don't map 1-to-1 to 3.5.

3.5 does as well, actually. Except for charisma and wisdom, because to qualify as a creature at all you need those.

[PraxisVetli]

3.5 does as well, actually. Except for charisma and wisdom, because to qualify as a creature at all you need those.

Which is why I thought there might be a 1 minimum.
I didn't think it would allow it to reach zero, since it HAD to have something to be a creature.
Oh well!

[Thurbane]

It largely depends on the template: some will state minimums, or other specific rules.


Abilities: Change from the base creature as follows: Dex +4, Int –4. (Treat a result of 0 or below as mindless, with no Intelligence score).

...


Mineral Warrior, is the template in question.


Abilities: Change from the base creature as follows: +2 Strength, +4 Con, –2 Int (minimum 1), –2 Wis, –2 Cha.

[weckar]

A creature without wisdom could exist, but would not be able to perceive anything--including itself or its own memories or instructions from a creator.
I'd think that is possible, but certainly not regular. Not necessarily vegetative, certainly.

A creature without charisma... trickier. Looking at the related skills, Charisma ultimately is the ability to change the mental state of other creatures. Just about anything I can imagine can be thought provoking or emotionally affective, so a creature without would have to be a creature that could not be perceived at all in any way, nor would be able to manipulate the world in such a way that its existence could be perceived.
Only way I could think this would work is a super-ethereal creature that would be instantly forgotten or just not noticed if ever perceived. In other words, I cannot think of an example that would not also lack a STR.

[RatElemental]

Which is why I thought there might be a 1 minimum.
I didn't think it would allow it to reach zero, since it HAD to have something to be a creature.
Oh well!

There's a difference between nonabilities and having 0 in an ability. If you have 0 dex, you lock in place and can't move. If dex is a nonability for you, you lack the capability to move in the first place and use intelligence for your initiative rolls instead and automatically fail reflex saves.


A creature without wisdom could exist, but would not be able to perceive anything--including itself or its own memories or instructions from a creator.


Not true, by RAW anyway.


Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.



Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

[Thurbane]

Dragon 287 has the Dream Element Creature template, which sets Wis to a non-ability.

A Dustform Dream Element Shrieker has non-abilities for everything except Cha, which is 1.

[PraxisVetli]

It largely depends on the template: some will state minimums, or other specific rules.



...
Oh, look at that!
Internet was different from the book, which is the same thing I always tell my players.
Shame on me, I should know better!

[Crake]

A creature without wisdom could exist, but would not be able to perceive anything--including itself or its own memories or instructions from a creator.
I'd think that is possible, but certainly not regular. Not necessarily vegetative, certainly.

I can't remember exactly where it's written, but to qualify as a creature something must have a wisdom and charisma score. One necessitates the other, and if something does not have a wisdom and/or charisma score, it is treated instead as an object.