How to build a tempest cleric

[Trandir]

I' ll play a tempest cleric and I could use some help for the mechanical part of the pc.
All manuals are legal.

We begin at lv 2 but any advice for higher levels is more than welcome.

So far I came up with this::

Race: Evony Warforged

Stats: regular 27 point buy sistem
Str: 13
Dex: 10
Con: 15+1+1
Int: 10
Wis: 15+1
Cha: 8


Feats:
Resilient (Con)
War Caster


I do not know any good spell beside for the 1st lv slots: healing word, bless, guiding bolt. I could use some help here as well.


Edit:
I do not know if it changes something but the DM is ok with this:
I get as cantrip Sacred "Lightning", a copy of sacred flame with the damage type on theme;
I can decide to activate destructive wrath after the attack roll or ST;
I can use the holy symbol shield to cast spells with somatic component (even those that do not require material components)

And this is the dealbreaker: bonus feat to everyone at lv 1, now that is good any advice or I should just grab resilient (Con) then at lv 4 Warcaster and from that point max out stats?

I after seeing the other players PCs ideas I changed my mind and swap to envoy warforged instead.

[Goldlizard]

As the cleric, LV 1 spells aren't important. However, take shocking grasp and sacred flame

[KorvinStarmast]

I' ll play a tempest cleric and I could use some help for the mechanical part of the pc.
All manuals are legal.

We begin at lv 2 but any advice for higher levels is more than welcome.

So far I came up with this::

Race: Hill dwarf
Seems good and I like dwarves

Stats: regular 27 point buy sistem
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14+2
Int: 10
Wis: 15+1
Cha: 8

Strong, resilient, wise and can't hold a conversation, perfect dwarf/melee cleric.


I do not know any good spell beside for the 1st lv slots: cure wounds, spiritual weapon and necrotic touch. I could use some help here as well. I always prepare Bless. And I always prepare Healing Word since it can be used as a bonus action to get someone up during combat. Spiritual Weapon won't come until you are 3rd level, as it is a second level spell.

Also, unless someone else in your party has it, take the guidance cantrip.

Adding 1d4 to another party member's, or your, attempt at an ability check (stealth, pick locks, grapple, climb, what have you) can make a big difference. The suggestion to take shocking grasp and sacred flame are good ones, but I can't find Shocking Grasp cantrip on the Cleric list I have handy. (Will check PHB later)

Yorrin has a guide to clerics: here is a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics&p=18189658&viewfull=1)

[Trandir]

I always prepare Bless. And I always prepare Healing Word since it can be used as a bonus action to get someone up during combat. Spiritual Weapon won't come until you are 3rd level, as it is a second level spell.

Also, unless someone else in your party has it, take the guidance cantrip.

Adding 1d4 to another party member's, or your, attempt at an ability check (stealth, pick locks, grapple, climb, what have you) can make a big difference. The suggestion to take shocking grasp and sacred flame are good ones, but I can't find Shocking Grasp cantrip on the Cleric list I have handy. (Will check PHB later)

Yorrin has a guide to clerics: here is a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics&p=18189658&viewfull=1)

Guidance is a very nice cantrip for OoC utility

My bad spiritual weapon will have to wait a couple of sessions before coming online

Bless is indeed amazing +1d4 to ST and Attack rolls to 3 party members.

Shocking grasp is a Sor/Wiz cantrip unfortunately and sacred flame is basically a cleric's crossbow, so it will probably be my go to ranged option most of the time.

Thanks for the link

[ad_hoc]

Don't forget that you get Thunderwave.

[CTurbo]

Clerics are easy. Tempest Clerics are awesome.

My advice-

1. Highest AC possible so full Plate + Shield = 20AC
2. Concentration is IMPORTANT. You NEED Warcaster or Res(Con) for sure and it wouldn't hurt to take both.
3. You want 20 Wis ASAP but get at least one of the above feats first.
4. Attacking with a weapon is rarely the best option.
5. Don't feel obligated to be "the healer" -I've played 3 different Tempests and none of them prioritized healing.
6. Don't be afraid to spam the Dodge action


The most simple and also best optimized Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric-

14 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha

level 4 take either Warcaster or + 2 Wis
level 8 take whichever you did NOT take at level 4
level 12 take +2 Wis to max it out.
level 16 take either Res(Con) or Dwarf Resilience
level 19 take whichever you did not take at level 16

So by level 20 you're sitting at 18 Con and 20 Wis, would almost never lose concentration, and you'd be able to heal 1d8+4 every time you take the Dodge Action. This is really simple and SO effective.



Alternatively, if there was a fancier feat you had your eyes on like Heavy Armor Master, Magic Initiate for Booming Blade, Sentinel, or Lucky you could start with 17 Con and 8 Int, and take Res(Con) early in place of Warcaster.

[GlenSmash!]

Very good advice in this thread already so I'll just add enjoy kickin' butt.

[Sherlockpwns]

So I think you have the basic tempest build down from the above advice.

I'd just focus on what you plan to do on level 3+.

For tempest this is usually the question of what you want to do and how long you expect the game to go. Assuming you're heading to the typical level 14ish ending there's a couple of common paths to take (and by no means all of your options).

Stay pure cleric. Simple and effective. Common builds are to take the Magic Initiate or similar "get a cantrip" for Booming Blade and use your level 6 knockback ability to hit someone and leave them away from you, out of combat (forcing them to have to move and take extra damage or not move). If you want to go full-bore into this strategy, at level 8 pickup Polearm Master (Forcing them to be knocked out of range of the polearm on a Booming Blade hit) and potentially have to take both the BB damage and a reaction attack from the polearm. You can even go further nuts and take instead of Magic Initiate so you can use BB at 10ft. It may actually make more sense to go PAM first and Spell Sniper second...

Your bread and butter use for Channel Divinity will be Shatter, which you'll get at level 3. It's like a mini-nuke, dealing 24 dmg in a 10ft rad when you get it and increasing another 8 dmg every 2 levels when upcast, at caster level 11 reaching 56 dmg. More important is that shatter is a spell that specifically also damages objects... and 56dmg to say... a castle wall... will cause quite the show!

Switch to anything that gets Lightning Bolt - Sorcerer is the obvious choice here but Circle of the Land (Mountain) is also an option, as well as Wizard or UA Lurker of the Deep. Get to level 5 in that class for Lightning Bolt (and other nice spells) and then either onward in that class for whatever you think is cool or back to Cleric for the second channel divinity at 6 (Total level 11) so you can ZAP PEOPLE TWICE. There's little more terrifying than a level 11 Tempest Cleric / Sorcerer blasting a line for damage with no roll (maybe more if you go Draconic).

Those are just two easy directions to go, plenty of flexibility within each to customize it as you see fit.

[Laserlight]

A Tempest is good at wading into melee and casting AoE spells. It doesn't have much in the way of single target damage spells.

For cantrips, I'd go Guidance, Sacred Flame for a ranged attack, and Word of Radiance for when you're in the thick of things.
Use a weapon and shield, and the best AC you can manage. It doesn't really matter what weapon you pick, that's not where your damage comes from.
It is extremely common to hear "Get Booming Blade!" but it won't help as much as people seem to think (until L5, it only does damage if the target moves and provokes OA, from L5 and on you're normally going to be casting spells, not trying to bop something with a hammer).
Get Warcaster at the first possible opportunity. Losing concentration sucks. At low levels, IIRC warcaster is better for you than Resilient CON.
Once you've got Warcaster, increase your WIS. You do not need to improve your melee attack stat.
If you have an unbearable compulsion to multiclass, a level or two of Storm Sorc has nice synergy, but you don't need it; straight Tempest is good.
Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians will be your friends.
You're not a healing cleric. Keep a Healing Word handy in case things get really desperate--say, if the wizard is at 0hp, you're falling 1000 feet, and it's time for a Featherfall--but you do a lot better to kill enemies instead of healing friends.

[CTurbo]

I'm not going to try to pick all of your spells but I'll add in some key ones in addition to the very good Tempest spells you get. I'm sure you've already heard of the Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians combo which leaves your action free to do whatever you want from weapon attack, blasting spells, healing spells, buffing/debuffing, and just taking the Dodge action.

Cantrips-

Guidance is possibly the best cantrip in the game
Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead because you need at least 1 damage cantrip
-Toll the Dead(Wis save) is a bit more damaging than Sacred Flame(Dex save) but Sacred Flame ignores cover. They're a tossup or you could take both.
Spare the Dying is nice to have in a pinch for the first few levels, but becomes basically useless later on.


1st level

Bless. You'll use this for your entire career. Easily one of the best uses of your concentration
Healing Word. Bonus Action healing that I personally only ever use when a party member drops
Command is simple and always useful


2nd level

Spiritual Weapon is a great use of your bonus action and is usually better than hitting with a weapon but you COULD do both. Actually upcasts well IMO
Prayer of Healing is superior to Cure Wounds


3rd level

Spirit Guardians will always compete with Bless for your concentration but is so good especially when fighting numerous enemies. Upcasts well too
Mass Healing Word is a must have IMO


4th level

Banishment

oops I'm out of time have to go lol

[CTurbo]

As far as Booming Blade, it's a good pick for Tempests, but you could get it from Magic Initiative and it's obviously superior than simply attacking, but I found I only ever used it with Reaction attacks via Warcaster. Even with Booming Blade, hitting with a weapon on your turn will rarely be the best option after level 5 or so. Of course when you DO need to hit something with your weapon, Booming Blade + Divine Strike will ensure you hit really hard with your one attack.

[ad_hoc]

Get Warcaster at the first possible opportunity. Losing concentration sucks. At low levels, IIRC warcaster is better for you than Resilient CON.
Once you've got Warcaster, increase your WIS. You do not need to improve your melee attack stat.

Well, if we're getting into the nitty gritty of optimization...

All we really need from Warcaster is the advantage.

Being a Dwarf we can start with a 17 Con and 16 Wis. Level 4 we can take Resilient (Con) and increase our Con to 18.

This gives us +1hp/level and at +4 to Con saves at 5th level vs the advantage from Warcaster. This is to all Con saves too, not just concentration.

Being a Dwarf we don't need high strength for the armour. We also don't need Intelligence or Charisma and Dex is a nice to have but also doesn't need to be high. So we aren't hurting from boosting Con from 16 to 17.

[Petrocorus]

In what setting do you play?



We begin at lv 2 but any advice for higher levels is more than welcome.
.....
I do not know any good spell beside for the 1st lv slots: healing word, bless and Inflict wounds. I could use some help here as well.

Is it just me or clerics don't get many lightning or thunder damaging spells?
That's the point of the Tempest domain. You add blasting and some BFC to the cleric list that lack it.

You should always have Healing Word and Bless prepared. Add Detect Magic if there is no wizard. And Guiding Bolt because you can max it.



As the cleric, LV 1 spells aren't important. However, take shocking grasp and sacred flame
Shocking Grasp is not on the Cleric spell list.
Indeed, the level 6 feature of the Tempest cleric doesn't synergize with any cleric cantrip nor with the Divine Strike.
It does synergize with Wrath or the Storm

If he wants Shocking Grasp, or Lightning Lure, he'll need to burn a feat on this and it will be keyed on Intelligence.

As cantrips, i'd avise Guidance, Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead, and Word of Radiance (good for the mooks). Maybe Light if there are a lot of people without darkvision in the party.

[Sherlockpwns]

As far as Booming Blade, it's a good pick for Tempests, but you could get it from Magic Initiative and it's obviously superior than simply attacking, but I found I only ever used it with Reaction attacks via Warcaster. Even with Booming Blade, hitting with a weapon on your turn will rarely be the best option after level 5 or so. Of course when you DO need to hit something with your weapon, Booming Blade + Divine Strike will ensure you hit really hard with your one attack.

Just to be clear, I rec the Booming Blade potential path as one option simply because this is a Tempest Cleric. Every cleric can do the "Spirit Guardians + Spirit Weapon" schtick. Those that get heavy armor, including tempest, do it slightly better (1 AC better, generally speaking), but it's not a "Tempest" build... and there's nothing wrong with doing it and using the tempest part for flavor and for upcasts of shatter.

So, I want to look at things specifically a Tempest can do better than any other Domain (and maybe better than any other class) - and one of those things is certainly focusing on the Knockback side at level 6, potentially locking down 1 enemy with BB or even just pushing them through hazards. At low levels a temptest is basically like every other domain, plus a once per rest shatter-nuke - but later on I feel like its a pretty flexible non-healer cleric.

There's certainly more blasty-shinannigans if you move to Sorcerer or even weird Mountain Druids (for some weird pure-wis quarterstaff and CC spells?). Not sure Wizard would add anything, never really thought about it, but its certainly viable too.

That all said, lets not forget that always having Fog Cloud ready is supremely handy in an incredibly wide amount situations.

[Willie the Duck]

As far as Booming Blade, it's a good pick for Tempests, but you could get it from Magic Initiative and it's obviously superior than simply attacking, but I found I only ever used it with Reaction attacks via Warcaster. Even with Booming Blade, hitting with a weapon on your turn will rarely be the best option after level 5 or so. Of course when you DO need to hit something with your weapon, Booming Blade + Divine Strike will ensure you hit really hard with your one attack.

That is going to depend on gameplay style, to a degree. If you play such that the Long Rest-recharging classes can always burn 1-2 moderately powerful spells per encounter, then Spirit Guardians+Spritual Weapon+dodge action is almost always better. If one plays with a more SR-dominant campaign, or massively-multiple encounter dungeon crawling, having good at-will backup becomes more important.

[Belthien]

Just be aware, if you go for booming blade, that the level 6 tempest cleric knock back is caused by lightning damage only. Booming blade is thunder damage.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I' ll play a tempest cleric and I could use some help for the mechanical part of the pc.
All manuals are legal.

We begin at lv 2 but any advice for higher levels is more than welcome.

So far I came up with this::

Race: Hill dwarf
Seems good and I like dwarves

Stats: regular 27 point buy sistem
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14+2
Int: 10
Wis: 15+1
Cha: 8

Strong, resilient, wise and can't hold a conversation, perfect dwarf/melee cleric.


I do not know any good spell beside for the 1st lv slots: healing word, bless and Inflict wounds. I could use some help here as well.

Is it just me or clerics don't get many lightning or thunder damaging spells?

This is a general cleric advice but don't worry about doing damage every round, one of the best things a Cleric can do is be a target.

Using the Help Action (giving an ally advantage) is an amazing way to help kill things faster, make your allies love you, and really importantly cause creatures to target you. It also doesn't fail.

Becoming the target and using the help action is one of the best things a Tempest Cleric can do. Even without expending a lot of spell slots.

* Wrath of Thunders: Reaction to being hit by an attack. With the help action and being annoying you will get to use this. Also, spice up your help action by being dirty (I like to say I'm spitting at the target).
* Healing: You won't have to spread out any out of combat healing and you can just target yourself.
* Channel Divinity works on Wrath of Thunders.
* Thunderbolt Strike works with Wrath of Thunders.
* Did I mention your allies will love you?
* Once you get second level spells you should pick up Spiritual Weapon allows you to attack with your bonus action and still use the help action for your allies. This allows you to be even more of a target!
* Your damage at low levels is going to be rather low no matter what you choose for cantrips but are a good way to mix up damage types (also, people sleep on Sacred Flame but gaining cover is so dang easy in 5e... Creatures can get that +2 AC/Dex Saves by standing behind an ally/enemy).

As for higher level slots... Honestly my best advice is to play the game and pick different things and just see how it works out. One of the best things about Clerics is that you don't have spell known so experimentation with different spell combinations is fun!

[Trandir]

The Str associated with the heavy armor is used to determine if I'd get slowed if I do not have enough strength. But a dwarf tempest cleric can wear everything and still walk at 25 feet even whitout the str, right?

If I get a "shield divine focus" I could cast spells with materials and somantic components even whitout the warcaster feat? By RAW I'd say yes but I'm asking to be sure

As for the cantrips I will take:
Thaumaturgy, not quite prestidigitation but still good;
Sacred Flame, good ranged option and ignore all covers as long as you can see it (if you have x-ray vision you can hit anything?);
Guidance, you get a d4 and you get a d4 everyone gets a d4.


First level spells can be changed so I will figure out what spells to prepare while playing.

Thanks for all the help so far

[KorvinStarmast]

Get Warcaster at the first possible opportunity. Losing concentration sucks. At low levels, IIRC warcaster is better for you than Resilient CON.
You are correct (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/130722/22566).


Once you've got Warcaster, increase your WIS. You do not need to improve your melee attack stat.
The critical attack stat IMO is wisdom, for using guiding bolt. :) YMMV. I agree with your point on Storm Sorcerer, but this domain stands up fine as single class.

You're not a healing cleric. Keep a Healing Word handy in case things get really desperate--say, if the wizard is at 0hp, you're falling 1000 feet, and it's time for a Featherfall--but you do a lot better to kill enemies instead of healing friends. Yes; have the healing available for when needed, but this isn't a heal bot build.


That all said, lets not forget that always having Fog Cloud ready is supremely handy in an incredibly wide amount situations. I learned to love fog cloud while playing a Tempest domain cleric. :smallbiggrin: I like it so much that my Rangers always take it.

[Emongnome777]

If I get a "shield divine focus" I could cast spells with materials and somantic components even whitout the warcaster feat? By RAW I'd say yes but I'm asking to be sure

Yes, but doesn’t work if the spell is somatic and not material. I can’t quote the relevant passages right now, but if I’m wrong, we’ll find out soon enough. LOL

[Petrocorus]

The Str associated with the heavy armor is used to determine if I'd get slowed if I do not have enough strength. But a dwarf tempest cleric can wear everything and still walk at 25 feet even whitout the str, right?

Right.
One of the reasons dwarves fir so well the cleric.



If I get a "shield divine focus" I could cast spells with materials and somantic components even whitout the warcaster feat? By RAW I'd say yes but I'm asking to be sure

It was confirm in a Sage Advice. For good measure, you should also get a holy symbol on your weapon.

Though, as Emongnome777 has said, by RAW it only work for spells that do have a material component, and not those with somatic but without material component. Many DM will ignore this i believe.
As a matter of fact, i can't manage to find the line in the PHB neither.


You are correct (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/130722/22566).

For the Concentration check, true.
But in ToA, There can be a lot of other Con saves to be made. So i would think twice before choosing Warcaster over Res (Con).
The other benefit of Warcaster will not be very useful to a cleric.

[SirGraystone]

There's suggestion of taking Shocking Grasp or Booming Blade which are not on the cleric list with magic initiate but before taking that feat ask your DM since you are a Tempest cleric if you can take them as a cleric even if they are not on the list, he may just say yes.

[Trandir]

Though, as Emongnome777 has said, by RAW it only work for spells that do have a material component, and not those with somatic but without material component. Many DM will ignore this i believe.
As a matter of fact, i can't manage to find the line in the PHB neither.



Yes, but doesn’t work if the spell is somatic and not material. I can’t quote the relevant passages right now, but if I’m wrong, we’ll find out soon enough. LOL

I asked my DM and he sayed that I can use a shield holy symbol to cast spells with semantic components and to use it as a shueld but I can't use that hand to do anything else.
This means that warcaser loses the no semantic component part but the advantage on concentration is still good

[Guy Lombard-O]

For the Concentration check, true.
But in ToA, There can be a lot of other Con saves to be made. So i would think twice before choosing Warcaster over Res (Con).
The other benefit of Warcaster will not be very useful to a cleric.

So very true. I always prefer Res Con over Warcaster, unless the build really needs the other two benefits of Warcaster for some reason. Particularly because Warcaster's Concentration saves only benefit where the save is due to taking damage. In some campaigns, that may be all you ever see. But in other campaigns, the DM may like throwing spells like Sleet Storm at your party (or adjudicate environmental hazards as requiring Concentration checks) and watch all the party's Warcasters turn into a fail army. The Res Con folks, however, will be just fine.

[Petrocorus]

I asked my DM and he sayed that I can use a shield holy symbol to cast spells with semantic components and to use it as a shueld but I can't use that hand to do anything else.
This means that warcaser loses the no semantic component part but the advantage on concentration is still good

What we said was about using your focus for somatic component according to the focus rules.
Warcaster overrules this, since it allows you to do it with weapons or shields.

[Rara1212]

-Toll the Dead(Wis save) is a bit more damaging than Sacred Flame(Dex save) but Sacred Flame ignores cover.

Sacred Flame ignoring cover isn't actually a strong point of it, but rather a balance to it being a Dex save as cover applies to dex saves. So the "ignore cover" part just makes the effective DC the same as if you cast Toll the Dead.'

Now on the other hand the difference between dex & wisdom saves depends on what monsters you fight, so that's more up to what enemies you expect to fight. I think there is a collection of average saves per CR & stuff somewhere

[Petrocorus]

Sacred Flame ignoring cover isn't actually a strong point of it, but rather a balance to it being a Dex save as cover applies to dex saves. So the "ignore cover" part just makes the effective DC the same as if you cast Toll the Dead.'

The spells specifies it, but it should not be necessary. A target does not benefit from cover for an effect that appear directly on itself.



A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.




Now on the other hand the difference between dex & wisdom saves depends on what monsters you fight, so that's more up to what enemies you expect to fight. I think there is a collection of average saves per CR & stuff somewhere

I believe that as a rule of thumb, you'll meet more monsters with better Dex saves than Wis saves at lower levels and the contrary at higher levels, but this is just an average.

It should also be taken in consideration that Toll the Dead do necrotic damage while Sacred Flame do Radiant damage.
Radiant is a better damage type, notably in some campaign as like ToA.

[Trandir]

So resilient (Con) is better than warcaster for maintaining concentration at higher levels, while the latter is better at low levels.

The plan should be something like this:
lv 4 warcaster
lv 8 +2 Wis
lv 12 +2 Wis
lv 16 resilient (Con)
lv 19 another feat to bring Con to an even number

I do not know if this PC will ever see half of those feats but having a plan is always better.

For the toll the dead vs sacred flame discussion I have the DM permission to get a "sacred lightning". It works just like the flame version but it deals lighning damage and this probably makes up for the difference of damage of toll the dead. Right?

[CTurbo]

So resilient (Con) is better than warcaster for maintaining concentration at higher levels, while the latter is better at low levels.

The plan should be something like this:
lv 4 warcaster
lv 8 +2 Wis
lv 12 +2 Wis
lv 16 resilient (Con)
lv 19 another feat to bring Con to an even number

I do not know if this PC will ever see half of those feats but having a plan is always better.

For the toll the dead vs sacred flame discussion I have the DM permission to get a "sacred lightning". It works just like the flame version but it deals lighning damage and this probably makes up for the difference of damage of toll the dead. Right?


This is a good plan and is pretty much what I said above. Yes Res(Con) is better at later levels.


For your Level 19 feat I still Recommend Dwarf Resilience or Dwarven Fortitude whatever it's called

You have the blood of dwarf heroes flowing through your veins. You gain the following benefits:


Dwarven Fortitude
*Increase your Constitution score by l, to a maximum of 20.
*Whenever you take the Dodge action in combat, you can spend one Hit Die to heal yourself. Roll the die, add your Constitution modifier, and regain a number of hit points equal to the total (minimum of 1)

[Warlush]

Just be aware, if you go for booming blade, that the level 6 tempest cleric knock back is caused by lightning damage only. Booming blade is thunder damage.

Just noticed that everyone ignored this.

[Laserlight]

Just noticed that everyone ignored this.

Because Tempest doesn't naturally come with BB, and it's probably not worth a feat to get it. If you get a free racial cantrip, then yeah, BB is probably the default...but it's not Gold. You could reasonably take Minor Illusion or Light or a couple others instead.

[Sherlockpwns]

Just noticed that everyone ignored this.

Yep it was my mistake and totally ruins the build, because ... I apparently forgot how the game worked? :D

The closest you can really get is by using a lightning cantrip to knockback OR some kind of mobility bonus action to move away and using BB on the reaction if they come close, potentially preventing them from reaching 5ft, but... yeah in hindsight... I'd have to rethink the "knockback focus" design a bit.

[Willie the Duck]

Just noticed that everyone ignored this.

I think because most everyone already knew it, and weren't factoring a knockback Booming Blade in their mental equations.

[Trandir]

All in all for the cantrips:
Guidance
Sacred "lightning"
Thaumaturgy

Seems like a good array. Or should I take spare the dying or another cantrip?

[Aaron Underhand]

All in all for the cantrips:
Guidance
Sacred "lightning"
Thaumaturgy

Seems like a good array. Or should I take spare the dying or another cantrip?

So hold on... Will the Sacred "Lightning" work with the 6th level pushback feature?

I'd say ask the DM, because that revives the build!

[Petrocorus]

Does anyone know a race (beside high elf) that could gives access to Lightning Lure or Shocking Grasp?

[Trandir]

So hold on... Will the Sacred "Lightning" work with the 6th level pushback feature?

I'd say ask the DM, because that revives the build!

I asked and I quote: "Is there any balancement problem or the like if I get a sacred lightning instead of a sacred flame? It would change only the damage type."

And he replyed: "Not at all, you lose access to sacred flame, but Thor provides you sacred lightning"

So it should work


Also I can decide to use destructive wrath after the enemy ST. That's something right?

[Lyracian]

Get Warcaster at the first possible opportunity. Losing concentration sucks. At low levels, IIRC warcaster is better for you than Resilient CON.
I always find this an interesting view. Sure in the abstract Warcaster means you will make more Concentration saves. However at levels 5-8 this is about 1 in 20 more saves than Res (Con)?

Taking up to 20 damage is DC 10.
Level 5 Con 16 + Warcaster = 91% change of passing
Level 5 Con 16 + Proficiency = 85% chance of passing

If you used point buy to take 17 Con then Resistance makes that 18
Level 5 Con 17 + Warcaster = 91% change of passing
Level 5 Con 18 + Proficiency = 90% chance of passing

If you are getting Warcaster as Varient Human at Level 1 or have an average 10 Con then Warcaster may be the better choice than Resistance. I just do not think it should get the blanket recommendation as being the better choice. Whereas Proficiency in Con saves helps with all those other things such as Poison, cold, ghouls touch.

Ghouls Touch is DC 10
Level 5 Con 16 + Warcaster = 70% change of passing
Level 5 Con 16 + Proficiency = 85% chance of passing

[Trandir]

I always find this an interesting view. Sure in the abstract Warcaster means you will make more Concentration saves. However at levels 5-8 this is about 1 in 20 more saves than Res (Con)?

Taking up to 20 damage is DC 10.
Level 5 Con 16 + Warcaster = 91% change of passing
Level 5 Con 16 + Proficiency = 85% chance of passing

If you used point buy to take 17 Con then Resistance makes that 18
Level 5 Con 17 + Warcaster = 91% change of passing
Level 5 Con 18 + Proficiency = 90% chance of passing

If you are getting Warcaster as Varient Human at Level 1 or have an average 10 Con then Warcaster may be the better choice than Resistance. I just do not think it should get the blanket recommendation as being the better choice. Whereas Proficiency in Con saves helps with all those other things such as Poison, cold, ghouls touch.

Ghouls Touch is DC 10
Level 5 Con 16 + Warcaster = 70% change of passing
Level 5 Con 16 + Proficiency = 85% chance of passing

That is true, war caster is slightly better at keeping concentration at low levels, and resilient (Con) offers some other benefits.

Warcaster:
No sematic component required, this DM will allow the shield with an holy symbol to do this so it loses appeal;
Spells as OAs, this is interesting but probably not too good without some other feat to broad the OAs triggers;
Advantage on ST for maintaining concentration, this feat's main attraction;

Resilient (Con):
+1 to Con, always good;
Proficency on Con ST, pretty darn good (dwarves get advantage on ST against poison so with this you can do the drunken dwarf without passing out);


Probably resilient is more usefull overall. But I'll get both soon or later.

Also about the stats as you sayed:

With point buy and hill dwarf I was considering this:
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 14 (+2 racial)
Int 10
Wis 15 (+1 racial)
Cha 8

But I could dump Dex, or lower Str, to get 1 more point of Con and at lv 4 get it to 18 with resilient and leverage the difference with warcaster to basically nothing (~3%) for maintaining con but I'd get the hp bonus and better Con ST overall.

Should I do this?

[CTurbo]

Warcaster and Res(Con) are both so good you can't go wrong with either. I've always let my stats determine the order. Starting odd Con means taking Res(Con) first while starting even Con means taking Warcaster first.

[Trandir]

Warcaster and Res(Con) are both so good you can't go wrong with either. I've always let my stats determine the order. Starting odd Con means taking Res(Con) first while starting even Con means taking Warcaster first.

I am considering it.

But how to do it? Two 15 and a 14 are quite expensive with the point buy. I could just reduce Str to 12 to keep Int and Dex at 10 or dump either of them to 8 and keep the 14 Str

[CTurbo]

I have no issue with 8 Int and 8 Cha personally

[Lyracian]

But I could dump Dex, or lower Str, to get 1 more point of Con and at lv 4 get it to 18 with resilient and leverage the difference with warcaster to basically nothing (~3%) for maintaining con but I'd get the hp bonus and better Con ST overall.
Should I do this?
Personally I would drop Str since your Dwarf ability lets you wear Heavy Armour without being slowed. It depends on how much you think you will actually make weapon attacks?

Going with 13 /10 / 17 / 10 / 16 / 8
ASI: Pushing Wiz to 20 and Res (Con) has you covered to twelfth level. Game may end there but if you no push on to 16th you can take another half feat for Strength such as squat nimbleness. 13 Str is enough to Multi-class should you want a level of Fighter.

For my Cleric I went with Charisma so I can take a level of Sorcerer.

[Trandir]

Well everyone the DM has a houserule: bonus feat at lv 1 for everyone.

This is good right?

[CTurbo]

Free level 1 feat? I'd be tempted to start Res(Con) then so you could start with 18 Con, but Warcaster is still a strong choice too

I don't want to further confuse you, but Heavy Armor Master is also a great starting feat and gives +1 Str.

[Lyracian]

Well everyone the DM has a houserule: bonus feat at lv 1 for everyone.
This is good right?
Very good; I got the same in one of my games and started with 18 Con.



Free level 1 feat? I'd be tempted to start Res(Con) then so you could start with 18 Con, but Warcaster is still a strong choice too. I don't want to further confuse you, but Heavy Armor Master is also a great starting feat and gives +1 Str.
HAM and Res (Con) were the two I was debating between and it was a close call. Not sure which will work out best but decided starting with Resistance means I can max Wiz by level 8.

[Trandir]

Free level 1 feat? I'd be tempted to start Res(Con) then so you could start with 18 Con, but Warcaster is still a strong choice too

I don't want to further confuse you, but Heavy Armor Master is also a great starting feat and gives +1 Str.

The % to pass a con ST with DC 10 to maintain concentration at lv 2 is:
85 with resilient
91.5 with war caster

So war caster is slightly better at that.

But this DM allows the shield symbol to cast any spell with S components, and the OAs feature is rather minor.

Resilient provides a lot more survivability.

Also at lv 2 and I probably won't need to max concentration success rate.

So the plan for now is:
lv 1 resilient (Con)
lv 4 war caster
lv 8-12 max Wis
lv 16 max Con
lv 19 no idea

Seems good

[Petrocorus]

Well everyone the DM has a houserule: bonus feat at lv 1 for everyone.

This is good right?

We use it in my gaming group and it doesn't imbalance the things that much. It allows more diversity in character type, notably for martials.

I'm a bit wary about Vuman having two feat total at level 1, though. It's not game-breaking but allows some specific combinations that can be impressive. Like PAM + Sentinel at level 1.

[Trandir]

Out of the 4 players 3 choose monstrous races so I decided to join the train and picked envoy warforged instead of hill dwarf.

All in all that's not a bad trade:

Both gets the same stat modifier (Dwarf: Con +2, Wis +1 and Warforged: Con +1 +1, Wis +1), two languages, a tool proficiency (the dwarf choce is more limited) and advantage and resistance vs poison.

Warforged gets: 5 more feet of movement, immunity to desease and magical sleep, plus no need for sleep, food, water or air. When long resting still fully aware so less likely to get ambushed, "free plate armor" at lv 1 that gets better with levels, one bonus skill, tool and one bonus language, and the integrated tool (fun little feature).

Dwarf gets: darkvision, stonecunning, 1 bonus Hp per level, not slowed by armor and gets armor.


All in all the warforged is better but I'll have to take as cantrips light, sacred "lightning" and thaumaturgy to make up for darkvision. The lost of the armor is a little bit sad but I can still wear robes.


Also now the party looks like this:
-Mountain dwarf barbarian
-Lizardfolk circle of the moon druid
-Goblin rogue
-Half-orc wizard
-Envoy warforged tempest cleric

This is going to be a fun game right?

[Lyracian]

This is going to be a fun game right?
Sounds that way but only one Dwarf left in the party he will feel lonely.

[micahaphone]

Sounds that way but only one Dwarf left in the party he will feel lonely.

Be sure to reach out and partake in dwarven customs to make him feel at home. "Come, now we drink alcohol and insult each other! I'll have a nip of oil. your mother was bad! There, I feel more bonded already "