3.5 shifting alignments

[jdizzlean]

let's say you have a character that is CE, and has to justify switching over to LE, which is a 2 spectrum leap. How would you justify that in a background or thru play? the same goes for CG to LG, or any other 2 positiion switch. i'd prefer to start this out keeping it to one alignment axis, so not examples of say LE to LG, but CE to LE and the like.

for the sake of arguement, no class features are lost because of these changing alignments

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Well, Law is all about the value of structure and following rules, and Chaos is all about the value of freedom. Obviously both have merits, but to have someone switch from, say, Chaos to Law would represent them becoming jaded towards the value of freedom while becoming more accepting that laws and structure can be beneficial.

CE to LE is probably the easiest to come up with a scenario for this. A villain strikes it out on their own, sowing destruction wherever they go and laughing in the face of all who oppose them. But the find themselves consistently losing, being repeatedly beaten, and generally downtrodden rather than living the high life like they anticipated. They could decide that the problem isn't with the methods; that they're too weak, or their enemies are too strong, and their method would have worked had that not been the case. But if they instead decide that it was their methodology that was flawed, that they would benefit more from being part of a group (be that an evil organization or insinuating themselves into the structure of a non-evil society), letting the system protect them at the price of having to conform to its demands, then that would be a shift to at least NE and maybe all the way to LE depending on how thoroughly they internalize that. More morally neutral examples include anarchy resulting in food shortages, lack of policing, and general inefficiency.

Lawful to Chaotic could similarly be the system letting them down (e.g. institutionalized corruption, an error in the bureaucracy costing them their retirement money, or simply feeling like the pressure to conform is drowning their individuality), convincing them to strike out on their own and live by their own rules (or on a societal scale, to tear the system down and let people make their own way/replace it with something far less restrictive).

Basically, Law versus Chaos is an axis of methodology. Any situation that would cast doubt on the effectiveness of the current method, or that highlights the effectiveness of the opposite method, or especially both at once, could convince someone to switch.

[Telonius]

The quickest way for a shift to Neutral would be if Law (or Chaos) hurt the character or somebody the character cares about. Tradition says they (or their family member) can't marry the person they want to, or have to fight in a war they hate, or serve a lord who's unworthy of respect. On the flip side, maybe their chaotic shenanigans gets them caught and punished, or accidentally burns down their childhood home/ the orphanage / their favorite bar. Maybe a lover gets heartbroken, or leaves them. Basically, a real calamity can cause somebody to completely re-evaluate their approach, and tone it down.

To go from Neutral to the other extreme, it's usually more of finding that the opposite way can get them what they really want. The moral axis does come into play here occasionally. Maybe you find that Chaotic means are a better way to achieve Good ends (stealing bread for the starving family one day, full-blown Robin Hood the next). Or that using tradition to your advantage will allow you to crush your enemies all the better.

TL, DR: Extreme to neutral, use stick. Neutral to extreme, use carrot.

[Vaern]

There was a thread a while ago where someone was asking about how he could reasonably shift his chaotic sorcerer to a lawful alignment. The answer is Atonement.



The Atonement spell in 3.5 and Pathfinder includes a note in the spell description stating that its ability to change alignment is explicitly intended to give the players and the DM an in-world way to allow a character to change alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively. In other words, no major character arc necessary to cross over from chaotic through neutral and into lawful territory, and you don't need to worry about your character struggling with falling back into her old ways. At the very least, if you are planning on taking steps towards lawful from chaotic, you should at least seek out a cleric to cast the spell on you to "finalize" the transition.

The alignment change version of Atonement does not necessarily involve seeking forgiveness for misdeeds that you have committed. Your character has simply realized that she is not happy with her current way of life and wishes to start over. Thus, there is no reason for the XP cost of the spell to be brought into the equation.

Mind you, Atonement will only function on a willing subject so your character must have a reason to want to change before seeking someone to cast the spell.
There is an exception, though, in the Evangelist's Convert the Unfaithful ability. This ability forces a subject to temporarily shift alignment for its duration, at the end of which they are given the option to either return to their old alignment or keep their new alignment permanently as though Atonement had been cast on them. Being affected by the Evangelist's conversion ability may allow you to decide that you're happier with your new alignment without needing a reason to want to change beforehand. Subjecting yourself to the Evangelist's conversion ability is kind of like taking on a free trial of a new alignment with no obligation to subscribe if you don't like it.

[Celestia]

A good example for both law to chaos and chaos to law is the MCU. Tony Stark started out as an independent free spirit who preferred to mock authority figures rather than follow them. However, throughout the movies he kept making mistakes and realized the value of responsibility and accountability, and by the end, he was both supporting and propping up that same authority, even becoming defacto law enforcement in Civil War.

On the other side of the spectrum, you have Steve Rodgers who started out as the most loyal, government supporting guy on the planet. He fully believed in the intrinsic rightness of authority. Then, after joining S.H.I.E.L.D., he discovered the corruption inherent in the system and became disillusioned to the government's ability to bestow justice, eventually realizing that it stood in the way of doing the right thing. Thus, he became a rebel and a wanted felon.

Stark went from Chaotic Good to Lawful Good while Rodgers went from Lawful Good to Chaotic Good, all in the background of the main story.

[Red Fel]

Stark went from Chaotic Good to Lawful Good while Rodgers went from Lawful Good to Chaotic Good, all in the background of the main story.

Objection. Cap's disillusionment with lawful authority came from his adherence to principles that he felt transcended authority - not an individualistic streak, but a philosophical ideal to which he continued to cling. I would therefore argue that he never stopped being LG.

Stark, on the other hand, is debatable, I grant you.

More on point, it starts with a change of mindset. And with an Evil character, the focus of that change is easy from a narrative perspective - the shift from one Evil to another is how a character interacts with power.

This is just one example, there are a lot of ways to do it, but here's a more clearly illustrated take.

CE is about power in terms of might makes right. That is, if I have the power, I can do whatever I want with it. There is an inherent sense of freedom to that - as long as you're the biggest, baddest thing in the room, nothing can stop you from pursuing your goals. Or, as Alucard would say, "Oh, what are you going to do? Grab that guy who can stop me? What was his name? Michael McDoesn'texist?"

LE, on the other hand, is about power in terms of rules make might. That is, adherence to rules or principles or structures makes one more powerful. Now, at the end of the day it goes to the same place - having the power is what matters - but LE gets there by seeing the value in order, and exploiting it for LE's benefit.

So how do you get from Point A to Point B? It's easy. Open your eyes. Say you're a CE character. Go further - say you're the strongest sucker this side of town. Meaner than a junkyard dog, etc. And yet, you keep losing. There are enemies - organized, structured, everything you mock - who keep getting the better of you. How? Why?

It is, you realize, because of their adherence to rules and structure. They are not individualistic, like you. But they are disciplined. They put one another, and their organization, above themselves. And that puts them beyond fear. Beyond instinct. If one of them dies, it doesn't matter - the organization they uphold will live forever. They are, in that way, beyond death.

You become fascinated by this concept. That by giving themselves to something larger - by limiting themselves - they become, in a way, more powerful than they ever could be individually. More powerful than you.

Power appeals to you. It intrigues you, it taunts you. You are Evil; coveting comes naturally. So you investigate. You pursue. You learn. And you come to respect it. You come to realize that their way - maybe not precisely their way, but something similar - can work for you. And you can work with it. You can embrace it. You can find an order that appeals to your sensibilities, and through your adherence to it, you can transcend the limits you inadvertently placed upon yourself by cutting yourself off from the perceived weakness of others.

You grow. You evolve. You become LE.

Join us.

[Kayden Prynn]

My Gnome Tinker was originally CG, as he was quite naive, and believed in the inherent goodness of people, that people, when left to their own devices, tended more towards good than evil. Then my friend's Gnome Cleric/Tinker showed him his 'workshop', for lack of a better term. This was an LE mad scientist type character, and his 'workshop' was filled with people in cages waiting to be experimented on. So he shifted to LG, as he still believes that everyone has the capacity for Good, just that some need a firmer hand than others. So that's one way an alignment shift can happen. A single moment that radically changes how a character understands the world they live in.