House rules: Attacking with mercy

[Catullus64]

I find the rules in the PHB for attacking with mercy to be unsatisfying. As long as melee weapons are being used, subduing a creature alive is no more intrinsically difficult than killing it. For the atmosphere that I want at my table, I think it should be otherwise.

Loath as I usually am to invoke "realism" as a motive for game balance, I do find it compelling here; law enforcement officials might not be authorized to use deadly force if non-deadly force were just as effective. It kind of makes killing in the game feel a lot less warranted if you take no additional risk to just conk someone over the head. I also want taking prisoners for interrogation (a common adventurer tactic) to feel risky.

I've tried two different fixes for this. The first was to make it so that mercy has to be declared before you make the attack roll, rather than before damage. This didn't really make a difference in how players approached it. The second approach was like the former, except an attack with mercy was made with disadvantage. This ensured that players just never bothered to do it.

My questions:

1. Is there an official variant rule for this in any of the published book that I've missed?

2. If no, is there a house-ruled approach to nonlethal fighting that you've tried at table which worked for you? I don't want to try 3rd-Edition style, with its nonlethal HP total nonsense.

[pragma]

I haven't tried it, but I've been kicking around an idea for non-lethal blows
* Declare you're making a non-lethal attack before damage is rolled (after attack roll is fine, but before could work too)
* If damage reduces a creature to zero hit points, then the creature is unconscious
* If not, the creature receives no damage
* You may only make non-lethal rolls with melee attacks

This way it costs an action to knock something out if you don't have a good feel for its HP.

[NRSASD]

I've just house-ruled that non-lethal damage depends on the weapon type. Bludgeoning does full damage when used non-lethally, slashing does half damage, and piercing cannot be used non-lethally. This explains why city guards carry clubs rather than "subduing" people with a hail of heavy crossbow bolts.

You can kinda game the system by using your weapon lethally until you're in non-lethal one shot range, but my players never know enemy hp counts or exactly how much damage a hit will do.

[NNescio]

I've just house-ruled that non-lethal damage depends on the weapon type. Bludgeoning does full damage when used non-lethally, slashing does half damage, and piercing cannot be used non-lethally. This explains why city guards carry clubs rather than "subduing" people with a hail of heavy crossbow bolts.

You can kinda game the system by using your weapon lethally until you're in non-lethal one shot range, but my players never know enemy hp counts or exactly how much damage a hit will do.

While I think your houserules are sound, note that crossbow bolts can't be used non-lethally anyway (except as an improvised weapon), because the Knocking a Creature Out option only applies to melee attacks.


Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. (...)

(Emphasis mine.)

[NecessaryWeevil]

As long as we're houseruling / homebrewing, is there any good reason balance-wise to leave casters out of the nonlethal fun? If you can learn a martial technique to subdue someone with a lethal weapon like a longsword, as effectively or nearly effectively as striking lethally, it seems like it would be interesting to allow a charitably-minded caster to tinker with their spell's energies to make their damage nonlethal also.

Although I guess a thread motivated by realism might be the wrong place to bring this up. :)

[Corran]

Another idea is to halve the damage. Players might start using it more this way.

[Vogie]

My questions:
1. Is there an official variant rule for this in any of the published book that I've missed?
2. If no, is there a house-ruled approach to nonlethal fighting that you've tried at table which worked for you? I don't want to try 3rd-Edition style, with its nonlethal HP total nonsense.

Other options include:

Introduce a variant of 3.P's "Merciful" weapons, that effectively deal additional damage, but can never kill a target.
Giving all players a variation of the grappler feat, allowing them to Pin targets after grappling them.
Open up the option for a "Nonlethal Tactics" via fighting style, feats, or both. You could look to converting the Police Tactics from nWoD (http://nwod.org/wiki/index.php/Police_Tactics) for an example



Note that crossbow bolts can't be used non-lethally anyway (except as an improvised weapon), because the Knocking a Creature Out option only applies to melee attacks.


Pretty much this. Nets, for all of their flaws, also can restrain a target at range... except their range sucks.

You could also create a knockout arrow, something like a variation on an Arcane Archer's Shadow or Banishing Arrow. Effectively, it'd be a Stunning strike (that is, on a failed Con Save), at range, in addition to dealing damage. I'd probably make it a magic property for a bow or bolts, in addition to being an additional Arcane Shot option.

https://blacknerdproblems.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/boxing-glove-arrow.gif


As long as we're houseruling / homebrewing, is there any good reason balance-wise to leave casters out of the nonlethal fun? If you can learn a martial technique to subdue someone with a lethal weapon like a longsword, as effectively or nearly effectively as striking lethally, it seems like it would be interesting to allow a charitably-minded caster to tinker with their spell's energies to make their damage nonlethal also.

That's less of an issue - They could just as easily use Hold Person/Sleep/Hideous Laughter/whatever, allowing another PC to slap manacles (or equivalent) on them.

[NRSASD]

Other options include:

Open up the option for a "Nonlethal Tactics" via fighting style, feats, or both. You could look to converting the Police Tactics from nWoD (http://nwod.org/wiki/index.php/Police_Tactics) for an example


I was briefly excited because I thought this would be anti-vampire or werewolf SWAT tactics. Alas...


Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. (...)

Pretty much this. Nets, for all of their flaws, also can restrain a target at range... except their range sucks.

You could also create a knockout arrow, something like a variation on an Arcane Archer's Shadow or Banishing Arrow. Effectively, it'd be a Stunning strike (that is, on a failed Con Save), at range, in addition to dealing damage. I'd probably make it a magic property for a bow or bolts, in addition to being an additional Arcane Shot option.

https://blacknerdproblems.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/boxing-glove-arrow.gif


Ah... that is in fact the rule, as listed in the PHB. I've just been ignoring it, since a blunt arrow is close enough to a rubber bullet for my purposes. (Not that rubber bullets are safe, cause they aren't, but this is fantasy right?)


That's less of an issue - They could just as easily use Hold Person/Sleep/Hideous Laughter/whatever, allowing another PC to slap manacles (or equivalent) on them.
My thoughts exactly. Besides, do we want a blade barrier that just slaps people with the blunt side of the blade? Amusing, but presumably inefficient

[NNescio]

As long as we're houseruling / homebrewing, is there any good reason balance-wise to leave casters out of the nonlethal fun? If you can learn a martial technique to subdue someone with a lethal weapon like a longsword, as effectively or nearly effectively as striking lethally, it seems like it would be interesting to allow a charitably-minded caster to tinker with their spell's energies to make their damage nonlethal also.

Although I guess a thread motivated by realism might be the wrong place to bring this up. :)


That's less of an issue - They could just as easily use Hold Person/Sleep/Hideous Laughter/whatever, allowing another PC to slap manacles (or equivalent) on them.


My thoughts exactly. Besides, do we want a blade barrier that just slaps people with the blunt side of the blade? Amusing, but presumably inefficient

Also one can use melee spell attacks. Tasering someone with Shocking Grasp would be highly appropriate.

[NecessaryWeevil]

My thoughts exactly. Besides, do we want a blade barrier that just slaps people with the blunt side of the blade? Amusing, but presumably inefficient

Nerf Barrier!

[NNescio]

Nerf Barrier!

Player: I cast Spritual Weapon. Can I 'refluff' it? Spell says it takes whatever form I choose.
DM: Sure. How do you want it to look?
Player: A nerfhammer.
DM: ...okaaay.

[Later]

Player: ...9 force damage.
DM: You smash the cultist's head open like a ripe melon.
Player: Hold on, nonlethal, I'm knocking him out.
DM: Don't think you can do that with a spell.
Player: Sure I can, it just specifies "melee attack". Melee spell attacks are also melee attacks.
DM: Sigh. Okay, you knock the cultist unconscious with your...nerfhammer.
Player: YES! I've always wanted to do this!

[Bjarkmundur]

If the d20 that delivered the killing blow shows an even number, the player can declare his attack as being nonlethal.

Minimum effort, maximum results.

[NRSASD]

Player: I cast Spritual Weapon. Can I 'refluff' it? Spell says it takes whatever form I choose.
DM: Sure. How do you want it to look?
Player: A nerfhammer.
DM: ...okaaay.

[Later]

Player: ...9 force damage.
DM: You smash the cultist's head open like a ripe melon.
Player: Hold on, nonlethal, I'm knocking him out.
DM: Don't think you can do that with a spell.
Player: Sure I can, it just specifies "melee attack". Melee spell attacks are also melee attacks.
DM: Sigh. Okay, you knock the cultist unconscious with your...nerfhammer.
Player: YES! I've always wanted to do this!

hahahaha exactly! On a serious note, I'd say spells are inherently lethal in the same way piercing weapons are (how do you subdue people with a flameblade...?).

On a less serious note, this just reminds me of dwarf fortress training logs:
Axedwarf looks surprised by the ferocity of Spearmasters onslaught. Spearmaster charges at Axedwarf. Spearmaster stabs axedwarf in the left eye with his +Adamantine spear+, lightly tapping the target.

[Guy Lombard-O]

hahahaha exactly! On a serious note, I'd say spells are inherently lethal in the same way piercing weapons are (how do you subdue people with a flameblade...?).

On a less serious note, this just reminds me of dwarf fortress training logs:
Axedwarf looks surprised by the ferocity of Spearmasters onslaught. Spearmaster charges at Axedwarf. Spearmaster stabs axedwarf in the left eye with his +Adamantine spear+, lightly tapping the target.

The one that really kills me (ah-hah!) is Vicious Mockery. You can Mock someone to death with your razor-sharp wit, but can't simply bully them into "surrendering" (unconsiousness).

Sticks and stones might break my bones (non-lethal), but words can only kill me...?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I haven't tried it, but I've been kicking around an idea for non-lethal blows
* Declare you're making a non-lethal attack before damage is rolled (after attack roll is fine, but before could work too)
* If damage reduces a creature to zero hit points, then the creature is unconscious
* If not, the creature receives no damage
* You may only make non-lethal rolls with melee attacks

This way it costs an action to knock something out if you don't have a good feel for its HP.
I really like this.

[1Pirate]

To be honest, the means are actually within the rules via death saves. Having monsters die at 0 is just a convenience most DMs use.

Have the player declare non-lethal beforehand. If the attack drops the creature to zero, start doing death saves for it. The players can then try to stabilize it or not via Medicine checks or Healer Kits.

[Blood of Gaea]

Don't you try to tell me I can't knock someone out non-lethally with Lance blow delivering a 5th level smite from horseback. :smallbiggrin:

[Kane0]

Half damage and call it a day. I'd even extend that to all attacks because I'm generous.

[Themrys]

I think you should give everyone a fair chance to be merciful. Within reason. (Burning someone's feet might just make them unable to fight, but burn a too large portion of skin and they're dead.)

One of my proudest roleplaying moments is the time I wanted my archer to nonlethally subdue an enemy. The enemy then took an arrow to the knee. (The GM told me it would be very difficult to hit a moving target in the knee, but I got to try. And I was very lucky with the dice, so it worked.)

But yes, make it harder. It is harder in real life. And with some weapons, such as a bow and arrow, it is almost impossible. (But I absolutely think realistically so-unlikely-they-may-as-well-be-impossible feats with a bow and arrow should be possible in fantasy. It makes for awesome scenes if it actually does work once in a while.)

[Lunali]

I find the rules in the PHB for attacking with mercy to be unsatisfying. As long as melee weapons are being used, subduing a creature alive is no more intrinsically difficult than killing it. For the atmosphere that I want at my table, I think it should be otherwise.

Loath as I usually am to invoke "realism" as a motive for game balance, I do find it compelling here; law enforcement officials might not be authorized to use deadly force if non-deadly force were just as effective. It kind of makes killing in the game feel a lot less warranted if you take no additional risk to just conk someone over the head. I also want taking prisoners for interrogation (a common adventurer tactic) to feel risky.

I've tried two different fixes for this. The first was to make it so that mercy has to be declared before you make the attack roll, rather than before damage. This didn't really make a difference in how players approached it. The second approach was like the former, except an attack with mercy was made with disadvantage. This ensured that players just never bothered to do it.

IMO, requiring the non-lethal attack to be melee is enough reason for police to use lethal attacks most of the time. As for the risk of taking prisoners, there's enough risk inherent in the prisoner that needs to be dealt with to make it a somewhat unattractive option. If your players are the type to capture, interrogate, then kill unarmed captives, have someone witness this and bring them up on legitimate murder charges.

[Safety Sword]

To be honest, the means are actually within the rules via death saves. Having monsters die at 0 is just a convenience most DMs use.

Have the player declare non-lethal beforehand. If the attack drops the creature to zero, start doing death saves for it. The players can then try to stabilize it or not via Medicine checks or Healer Kits.

This. Or just say that after 3 rounds they JUST DIE. That way if you want to stop them dying you have the opportunity but you don't have the hassle of actually tracking death saves for every disposable minion.