A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

[Rafaelfras]

Two classes, the bard and the paladin, discover new playtest possibilities this week. The bard receives a new Bardic College feature: the College of Eloquence. Additionally, the paladin gains a new Sacred Oath feature: the Oath of Heroism.


https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-EloquentHeroics.pdf

[nickl_2000]

Let the celebrations and complaining begin!

Thanks, taking a look now.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I really like the mechanics of both!


Flavorwise, I find that both are iffy. Only because of people on the internet, though. Bard one is all about logic, speeches, oratory, and stuff like that. Played poorly, I worry that it's "Neckbeard, the subclass". Played well, it seems like an awesome diplomat class, and a way to actually have mechanical enforcement of a "peacemaker" character. They get Calm Emotions for free cha times per rest! And more that I won't babble about just now!

The paladin is about embracing the heroic destiny the gods have given you. You train your body, inspire others, and jump at the chance to challenge yourself. Played poorly I worry it's "Meathead jock the class" or "Toxic Masculinity paladin". Played well, I think it could be the ultimate heroic type, who is just super excited to have the chance to go on adventures and make the world a better place.

[Damon_Tor]

Oath of Heroism doesn't have Heroism as an oath spell.

...

[Jophiel]

I laughed that the first Oath of Heroism spell was Expeditious Retreat :smallbiggrin:

I know you can also use the spell to move into combat but it still made me snort.

[Amechra]

College of Eloquence is awesome. Infectious Inspiration literally made my jaw drop (and then I noticed that you only get to keep the die if you failed your roll, but still).

[Reevh]

I'm confused about the Infectious Inspiration. The way I read that, starting at level 14 you can give someone a permanent +1d10 to all their Attack Rolls, Ability Checks, and Saving Throws, and also give it to others. And it goes to 1d12 starting at level 15. Seems sort of crazy strong. Like a permanent and turbo-charged Bless that doesn't even require concentration.

Edit: Oh, it's only when they fail. Still strong.

[Reevh]

Legendary Strike seems like it would synergize particularly strongly with divine smite.

[DeTess]

I like the mechanics on these, but the tenets of the oath of heroism seem odd to me. Most paladin oaths present some dos and don'ts, even if they are worded quite broadly. This oath only really says 'don't spend ASI's on feats or mental stats' though.

[stoutstien]

Well peerless athletic would make an interesting addition for a grapple/shoving build.

What's up with conjure volley?

[1Pirate]

Oath of Heroism doesn't have Heroism as an oath spell.

...
That was my first thought too. But I’ll take both of those spells over Heroism.

[J-H]

Mighty Deed is pretty strong. Living Myth is good for a once-per-day climactic battle.

Eloquence is kind of meh. I'd rather take one of the other options for Bard, although Calm Emotions is nice. This would be better as an NPC class.

[CheddarChampion]

Enter... The Diplomancer!

Looks like infectious inspiration can be chained from itself. Very good when inspiration isn't used up on a fail.

Undeniable logic seems fairly decent for offensive use, if a bit close to stepping on heightened spell's toes.

The hero seems like a good subclass for people that want to play a vanilla paladin without tying themselves to a cause/god.

Hero's mechanics could be turned back a bit.
Bonus action improved critical vs normal action sacred weapon?
Spell list has good spells across the board?
Mighty deed should start at a 10' range?
Glorious defense is two features in one - and two reactions in one?

Living myth is quite good, but then so are other paladin capstones. GWM away!

[Waterdeep Merch]

Two classes, the bard and the paladin, discover new playtest possibilities this week. The bard receives a new Bardic College feature: the College of Eloquence. Additionally, the paladin gains a new Sacred Oath feature: the Oath of Heroism.


https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-EloquentHeroics.pdf
First- wow, they're really spoiling us with UA suddenly.

Also- I'm in love with both of these on a conceptual level. So much so that I'm probably ignoring that they're a bit OP, because I adore them. I've already offered the Heroism Oath to one of my players and he just bit.

[nickl_2000]

First- wow, they're really spoiling us with UA suddenly.

Also- I'm in love with both of these on a conceptual level. So much so that I'm probably ignoring that they're a bit OP, because I adore them. I've already offered the Heroism Oath to one of my players and he just bit.

I'm debating asking my Dragonheist DM if I can use Heroism. It is certainly fitting to the character thus far.

[Bloodcloud]

Undeniable logic attack option reminds me of the Chewbacca defense in South Park, even the part where one of the jurors head explode.

Otherwise, strong but doesn't appear too OP to me.

Oath of heroism... I'm less sure.
The spell list is straight weird (Expeditious retreat really? Bravely run away away!)
And then the crit-fishing... Hexblade paladin of heroism with elven accuracy would be straight nasty. But it is long to come fully online.

[Damon_Tor]

The barb subclass is probably going to pick up some hate, but I'm really enjoying the ability to make anyone understand you.

For example, this could be used to use Inspiring Leader on your Tiny Servants. See my "TSARs" post for why that could be extremely relevant.

The Oath of Heroism is tight. Legendary Strike is great. Mighty Deed is solid, and has great synergy with Mighty Deed. Glorious Defense is amazing.

[Daphne]

Undeniable Logic is too strong and makes the Sorcerer cries in the corner. At 6th level you can already use it 4/short rest, it's insane.

[jaappleton]

A quick note: I REALLY like how both of these have features that either debuff the enemy or buff the party. You get an option, you can choose. I always like more player agency.

Both are quite powerful, both in unique ways.

Pairing Heroism with two levels of Barbarian to get Reckless Attack to synergize with their channel divinity and crit on a 19-20 (Be Half Orc!) would be sweet.

As a straight up Oath, no MC, it... It works. It seems kinda like Champion, but plugged in as a Paladin Oath. I think it certainly works, its fine, I don't think its super powerful or anything. Nice solid, fairly vanilla option. Nothing bad about it, everything is fairly useful.

Bard? WOW. The lv6 feature alone to imply DisAdv on their next save is... WOW. Not 'the next time you cast a spell', so if they have to make a recurring saving throw, it can be at DisAdv. That itself is.... WOW. Everything else on it is gravy, that's pretty amazing just by itself.

[pragma]

What's up with conjure volley?
I read this as an attempt to make "Hercules: The Subclass," and shooting a ton of arrows fits my mental image of a Greek demigod hero.

Oath of Heroism seems balanced and reasonably fun to me: Mighty Deed is pretty good, but it replaces aura upgrades. Spell list is a bit weak, but channel divinity is strong. It's a wash. (Though crit-fishing with elven accuracy seems inevitable given the easy access to expanded crit range.)

College of Eloquence seems off the walls bonkers to me. Granting disadvantage on a save with a bonus action means you're a one-stop crowd control shop.

[NNescio]

The paladin is about embracing the heroic destiny the gods have given you. You train your body, inspire others, and jump at the chance to challenge yourself. Played poorly I worry it's "Meathead jock the class" or "Toxic Masculinity paladin". Played well, I think it could be the ultimate heroic type, who is just super excited to have the chance to go on adventures and make the world a better place.

DM: You skipped leg day? *gasp* YOU FALL!


Undeniable logic attack option reminds me of the Chewbacca defense in South Park, even the part where one of the jurors head explode.


Undeniable Logic is too strong and makes the Sorcerer cries in the corner. At 6th level you can already use it 4/short rest, it's insane.

Bard: Strawman argument! Appeal to authority! Loki's wager!
Orc: Wuh?
Bard: HOLD PERSON!

Bard: Correlation does not imply causation! Post hoc ergo propter hoc! Stormwind fallacy!
BBEG: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you—
Bard: HIDEOUS LAUGHTER!

[jaappleton]

I need to explicitly state something on the Bard's lv6 feature:

"The creature takes psychic damage equal to
the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration
die, and the creature must succeed on an
Intelligence saving throw against your spell
save DC or have disadvantage on the next
saving throw it makes before the end of your
next turn"

C&P'd directly from the article.

.....it doesn't apply only to spells. So if you have an item that forces a save, it works with it.

Like if you're playing Curse of Strahd and the Cleric has the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind to paralyze a Vampire, you can use this to force DisAdv on their save. And it also works on recurring saving throws, it doesn't have to be against the initial save.

This Bard absolutely and utterly craps on Heightened Spell metamagic and its not even a question.

[JumboWheat01]

I'm rather fond of the bard option. It emphasizes what a bard is known for, using their voice, and tweaks it for both for non-combat uses with early features and combat uses in later features. Undeniable Logic is great if you have a save-heavy caster in your party, like an enchanter or even just need a heavy evocation to hit hard, or is great if your party is going against an enemy that likes to throw save-requiring spells out against you. And Infectious Inspiration is great for making your Bardic Inspiration go the extra distance since you have two other features that are competing with the limited resource.

The paladin option's not bad either, but the bard option just really does it for me.

[Nidgit]

Eloquence seems maybe a little underpowered but otherwise fine. Infectious Inspiration is clearly really good but Undeniable Logic feels like a much better Vicious Mockery as a bonus action and that's not particularly appealing to me.

Heroism is mostly okay, but Glorious Defense is really, really strong without any modifiers on how many times you can use it. The spell list doesn't really feel right to me, and the capstone is a but underwhelming, but most of it is fine. The flavor is missing the key point that your actions don't just need renown but also need to cause a reaction in your audience, whether awe or fear.

[CheddarChampion]

I just realized that mighty deed can be used for both types in one go.
You choose up to Cha mod creatures, but the effects don't have to be the same!
Much better than I initially thought.

[jaappleton]

I just realized that mighty deed can be used for both types in one go.
You choose up to Cha mod creatures, but the effects don't have to be the same!
Much better than I initially thought.

Read this line:

All the chosen creatures are
affected by one of the following effects of your
choice:

I read that as one, not either.

[Wasp]

I feel Living Myth sounds very fun fo that one time when you play a level 20 paladin :smallbiggrin:

[CheddarChampion]

Read this line:

All the chosen creatures are
affected by one of the following effects of your
choice:

I read that as one, not either.

I see now how it's ambiguous.
The fluff suggests it can do both but I don't claim that it proves it:

Your actions on the battlefield can
supernaturally bolster your allies and
demoralize your enemies.

And not Or.
Again, I don't claim this is proof.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Anyone else look at the Heroism Paladin and hear "I Need A Hero"? Cast Expeditious Retreat, CD for Peerless Athlete, Mighty Deed as you mulch through enemies:

"He's got to be strong, and he's got to be fast, and he's got to be fresh from the fight."

[Slayn82]

I think Eloquence is on par with Lore. At lvl 3, you get the equivalent to two spells, for very specific niche, but not using your spellcasting resource.

At lvl 6, undeniable logic gives you two solid uses for the Bardic Inspiration for those situations when talking isn't really an option. Even the Healing bonus action is useful so you can recover an ally on death saves and still cast an spell on your turn. Something couldn't be done with Healing Word.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm no good at gauging balance by reading so I defer to others (though Infectious Inspiration did make me raise an eyebrow).

I like College of Eloquence and it's thematically PERFECT for this adventure path I've always wanted to run (Zeitgeist by Ryan Nock, if you're curious). Of course, I also want to build a parody of College of Eloquence where all the class features are named after logical fallacies.

Oath of Heroism is very, very meh. I can see possibilities for, say a Paladin of Kord or Kahless or some other "Seek glory in battle" type patron, but it still feels kinda flat. It needs... something. Plus, most Paladin Oaths spin themselves as doing good somehow, while this is pretty self serving. Even something in their about making yourself ready to do The Thing at any time would help.

[NNescio]

I think Eloquence is on par with Lore. At lvl 3, you get the equivalent to two spells, for very specific niche, but not using your spellcasting resource.

At lvl 6, undeniable logic gives you two solid uses for the Bardic Inspiration for those situations when talking isn't really an option. Even the Healing bonus action is useful so you can recover an ally on death saves and still cast an spell on your turn. Something couldn't be done with Healing Word.

Might not work though. The target has to be able to hear you, and an "unconscious creature..." "... is unaware of its surroundings".

(Admittedly there is room to argue either way, since "unaware" isn't explicit, and people in real life can still "hear" a bit even when asleep, which is why I said "might".)

[jaappleton]

Might not work though. The target has to be able to hear you, and an "unconscious creature..." "... is unaware of its surroundings".

They have to hear you. Not necessarily understand you.

I can see DMs ruling this one either way.

[Fnissalot]

Infectious Inspiration is good. Eloquence overall will have a hard time deciding what to do with the inspiration. Undeniable logic might need a save instead of letting it just happen.

Mighty deed as I read it only does one of the effects when you do it. Otherwise it would be bonkers.

Less overpowered than the last two UA as I see it.

[CheddarChampion]

Hero 15/Swashbuckler 5 - flavorful, powerful, but MAD.
Thoughts?

[Amechra]

Infectious Inspiration is good. Eloquence overall will have a hard time deciding what to do with the inspiration. Undeniable logic might need a save instead of letting it just happen.

Mighty deed as I read it only does one of the effects when you do it. Otherwise it would be bonkers.

Less overpowered than the last two UA as I see it.

Undeniable Logic does need a save. An Intelligence save, specifically.

[Fnissalot]

Oh, and both sub-classes will fit great when I will run Odyssey of the dragonlords later on.

[Talij]

Based on the comments so far, guessing there's a version of the pdf that went out without the INT save on applying disadvantage on the Bard's 6th lvl ability. Without the save it's OP. With the save seems fine. Fail an INT save, get disadvantage on the next save seems fair.

They seem more balanced than the last two UAs that came out. With all the new subclasses, guessing we're getting a new Xanathars like book in the Spring... :-D

[MaxWilson]

I need to explicitly state something on the Bard's lv6 feature:

"The creature takes psychic damage equal to
the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration
die, and the creature must succeed on an
Intelligence saving throw against your spell
save DC or have disadvantage on the next
saving throw it makes before the end of your
next turn"

C&P'd directly from the article.

.....it doesn't apply only to spells. So if you have an item that forces a save, it works with it.

Like if you're playing Curse of Strahd and the Cleric has the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind to paralyze a Vampire, you can use this to force DisAdv on their save. And it also works on recurring saving throws, it doesn't have to be against the initial save.

This Bard absolutely and utterly craps on Heightened Spell metamagic and its not even a question.

It doesn't beat Wild Sorcs though, because disadvantage + 1d4 penalty >> disadvantage if they fail an Int save first.

[Fnissalot]

Based on the comments so far, guessing there's a version of the pdf that went out without the INT save on applying disadvantage on the Bard's 6th lvl ability. Without the save it's OP. With the save seems fine. Fail an INT save, get disadvantage on the next save seems fair.

They seem more balanced than the last two UAs that came out. With all the new subclasses, guessing we're getting a new Xanathars like book in the Spring... :-D

Oh, it was there all along. I didn't read it properly apparently.

[alchahest]

Does Eloquence come with a fedora? "Debate me, coward! My logic is unassailable!"

[nickl_2000]

Does Eloquence come with a fedora? "Debate me, coward! My logic is unassailable!"

All bards come with a jaunty hat, it's in their standard equipment list

[Scarytincan]

Oath of Heroism doesn't have Heroism as an oath spell.

...


I laughed that the first Oath of Heroism spell was Expeditious Retreat :smallbiggrin:



These were my first thoughts as well XD

[jaappleton]

I just realized that mighty deed can be used for both types in one go.
You choose up to Cha mod creatures, but the effects don't have to be the same!
Much better than I initially thought.

To confirm this:

Dan Dillon, member of the D&D Design team, confirmed to me that you can only activate one of the bullet points of the ability upon satisfying its conditions.

So if you've got 20 Charisma, either up to 5 enemies can possibly be frightened or 5 allies get temp HP, but no 3/2 or 4/1 combo.

[alchahest]

Mighty Deed... the frighten aspect of it makes my Conquest paladin immensely jealous. That is some of the best CC I've ever seen sorry I just re-read and it's only a turn's worth.

[Scarytincan]

Anyone else look at the Heroism Paladin and hear "I Need A Hero"? Cast Expeditious Retreat, CD for Peerless Athlete, Mighty Deed as you mulch through enemies:

"He's got to be strong, and he's got to be fast, and he's got to be fresh from the fight."

I hear the theme for league of legends pantheon rework. Totally planning this paladin as a Triton spartan style with polearm master spear /shield...

[Spiritchaser]

I have to think a Heroism Dex sorcadin EA shadow blade build would work VERY well. You get all the usual toys, and when conditions are right you’ll have a better than 60% chance to crit each round. That and likely a few kills will make for a lot of fear or temp HP

[jaappleton]

Chatting with Jeremy Crawford right now on a livestream where he's answering questions on the UA.

Being unconscious doesn't deafen you.
Seriously.

Therefore, Undeniable Logic can grant Advantage on a Death Save.

[georgie_leech]

Chatting with Jeremy Crawford right now on a livestream where he's answering questions on the UA.

Being unconscious doesn't deafen you.
Seriously.

Therefore, Undeniable Logic can grant Advantage on a Death Save.

"... and therefore, you're not bleeding to death."

[Aett_Thorn]

"... and therefore, you're not bleeding to death."

I like the idea of logic-ing people back to life.

While I like the mechanics here, between this UA and the last, does it seem to anyone else that they seem to be running out of theme ideas for some of the classes? We’ve already got a Devotion and Crown Paladins, which are pretty close in theme (at least to me), and the Whisper Bard was a bit more sinister but still mainly focused on the wordsmithing side of the class.

There are so many other good themes to run with out there. Why stay so close to the middle of the road on these?

[Spiritchaser]

Well, conquest has dynamite mechanics, but occupies a very narrow conceptual space.

Maybe they’re trying to avoid that?

That said, I’d Love more conquest paladins!

Well

More cool narrowly defined melee + control/debuff oaths

Not literally more conquest paladins

[Slayn82]

"... and therefore, you're not bleeding to death."

The halfing thief lays bleeding in the ground, fighting to remain councious, when suddenly the Bard says the words that have, by reflex, awoken him a hundred times before, rallying all the willpower and vitality on his body:

"Wake up boys! Breakfast is ready!"

[Kane0]

Nice mechanical additions, though they will need the usual balance-polish.

Thematically I have my reservations.

[alchahest]

"It'll be alright in the end. If it's not alright, then it's not the end"

[Kane0]

"It'll be alright in the end. If it's not alright, then it's not the end"

When you're an adventurer you can be in either a dangerous place or a safe place. If you're in a safe place don't worry.
If you're in a dangerous place you're either injured or not. If you aren't injured, don't worry.
If you're wounded it's either slight or severe. If it's slight, don't worry.
If it's severe you'll either die or recover. If you'll recover don't worry.
If you die you can't worry, so as an adventurer you should never be worried!

[LudicSavant]

Might not work though. The target has to be able to hear you, and an "unconscious creature..." "... is unaware of its surroundings".

(Admittedly there is room to argue either way, since "unaware" isn't explicit, and people in real life can still "hear" a bit even when asleep, which is why I said "might".)

Unaware is reasonably explicit, given the definition of the words hear (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hear) and perceive (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perceive) in common English, which both stipulate awareness.

When people say that you can hear when asleep, what they're saying is that some part of your brain is in fact aware of and perceiving sounds on some level. Unconscious people in real life actually are aware of their surroundings to some degree. So one could make the argument that an unconscious character shouldn't be entirely unaware of their surroundings (e.g. that the pg292 line shouldn't be there in the first place).

[Grey Watcher]

Being unconscious doesn't deafen you.
Seriously.

In fairness, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to get to if you want to properly model the idea of being awoken by a loud noise. Yes, I'm aware that "unconscious" and "asleep" mean two different things in the jargon of the game, but I can see where they don't want to suddenly disable, for example, certain sources of psychic damage against an unconscious person by saying that unconscious = deaf.

If you really want to split that particular hair, a better one might be to say that, while Unconscious (as in, the thing that happens to you at 0 HP, specifically), a creature is treated as if it doesn't understand any language?

Of course, that reminds me of the other thing I found really weird is that, unlike nearly all of the other "transcend language barrier" spells, features, and effects out there, the College of Eloquence (!) can even reach things that don't have a language at all. (Seriously, it's an entire sub-class centered around "good with words" and one of the first things it does is... be able to ignore the absence of words?)

[UnintensifiedFa]

I think people greatly overestimate the 6th level ability of the subclass. The lore bard does a similar effect to saving throws with cutting words, but at an earlier level, as a reaction (which can be notoriously hard to use as a bard). With no save.

[Rukelnikov]

These are alright, they are not OP in the least. The Eloquence's Universal Speech is good, likely the best "communication tool" since while short in range, it allows you to communicate with ANY creature, by its wording even mindless creatures would "understand you", what does that mean? Its anyone's guess, but nvm.

Free Calm Emotions... meh, its a pretty situational spell, and the OoC uses are also very limited (maybe even impossible depending on DM's interpretation of "hostile") since it only works on creatures that are hostile towards you.

Undeniable Logic is good, but not so much for the offensive use, but the defensive one, as stated above, being able to get an ally back up, as a BA and WITHOUT using a spell, is an extremely good ability.

The offensive use deals minimal damage, and your target needs to fail an Int save in order get disadvantage on its next save... see the problem there? I need to have make my enemy fail a save in order to make it more likely he will fail another save... Ofc its not that simpmle, cause Int targeting effects are the most likely to land on average, but you have to spend a BA and a BI die to get a chance that the enemy has disadvantage on a save. Its a good feature but I don't find it broken or OP.

Finally Infectious Inspiration gives you Cha extra inspiration dice per day, nice but nothing awesome, the safety net feature i feel its much more important, because it means that every Inspiration die will be useful, and thus you can be much liberal with their use. Normally if I roll a 3 in a save and I assume im about 8 points short of the DC, i'll may not use a d10 inspiration die, unless it was literal life or death. This feature alows you to use it and if it doesn't work, no matter it's not wasted.

IMO this is a pretty good class overall, kind of a meme archetype, and the mechanics behind it are balanced.

The Paladin sub, I don't like the flavor much, my idea of a Hero is pretty different from the tennets written there :S

Aside from that, Mighty Deed is a cool mechanic, and Glorious Defense is maybe the first viable reaction I see that can be comparable to Shield. Problem is for both those features to work well you need to pretty much max Cha (mostly GD tbh, but for the fear aspect of MD its also useful), and I don't like it, because its another reason to take the ever present HB1 dips (blegh the HB is the real problem not this sub, but w/e)

Peerless Athlete is ok, Legendary Strike is pretty good, maybe too good. Its weaker than Champions lvl 3 obviously, but champion doesn't come with Divine Smite, crit fishing Pally is a fairly popular build, this makes it better than the usual HB's Curse, since its not against a particular enemy.

Living Myth is, ironically, a lil bit dull, though extremely powerful, For 10 minutes hit every turn, pass a save every turn. For a vague comparison, Rogue's capstone allows you turn a hit into a miss once per sr, assuming 2 sr in a (not really) "standard" adventuring day, that's 3 times a day. You are quite likely to get more than 3 uses of this for that.



tl;dr: Overall both classes are balanced, Pally perhaps being slightly more powerful than it should (i see all of its features, except spells list, as on par or better than Vengeance which I consider one of the strongest sub)

[Chaos Jackal]

If Undeniable Logic works on unconscious allies, then how come one of the many reasons the PDK is derided is being unable to do the exact same thing? Is the logic that undeniable... or is there a lack of it altogether?

[Dork_Forge]

If Undeniable Logic works on unconscious allies, then how come one of the many reasons the PDK is derided is being unable to do the exact same thing? Is the logic that undeniable... or is there a lack of it altogether?

For fluff reasons you can say one is a magical effect vs a morale only effect. Mechanically there's no sense really, PDK should be able to bring people up from zero with their main subclass feature (that also relies on a once per short rest resource), as it stands its underpowered for being what it is.

[Sigreid]

I dont care for them. The bard in particular seems designed to not let the skill expert succeed because it's not magic.

[Kane0]

Crazy thought, what could we strip from these UAs to improve on existing released material?

Universal speech would be great fitted into the Whipsers bard, Soothing Words I think makes for a great alternative to Countercharm, Infectious Inspiration works in many places but how about replacing the Glamor bard Unbreakable majesty?

Legendary strike is a great alternative to the Devotion Pally's Sacred Weapon, Mighty Deed and Glorious Defense would be great for a Crown pally.

Totally insane thought, what if there was a PHB2 that took all the UA over the years and used it to rebuild the PHB and Xan's classes/subclasses rather than releasing new ones?

[HappyDaze]

Oath of Heroism sounds like the chosen of those fickle, dickish Greek gods.

[dragoeniex]

I dont care for them. The bard in particular seems designed to not let the skill expert succeed because it's not magic.

I'm curious what you mean by this. Is it a concern this kind of build might encourage DMs not to let non-magic calming or persuasive attempts succeed when another party member has the subclass? Or that it might encourage players to leave it all to the one with the magic power for it? ... Something else?

[Hytheter]

Oath of Heroism makes me want to play a Bardadin of some kind, a chosen hero singing heroic ballads about himself. Unfortunately it seems like it would take too long to come online in terms of effectiveness, since I think you definitely want at least Pal 5/Bard 5 (and at that point might as well go Pal 6 for Aura) OR Pal 3/Bard 6 (Valor or Swords).

I think I'd favour the latter (Swords) if I was starting around that level. Peerless Athlete+Expertise is a great grappling combo. Legendary Strike+TWF+Flourish+Lots of Spell Slots should make some nice critfishing. Has potential?

[strangebloke]

Mighty deed is crazy.

Like, forget the multiclass nonsense. Lets say you have an ally who gives you advantage. Casting fairie fire or greater invisibility or knocking enemies prone or whatever. There are lots of ways. You're a half-elf, already nearly the best race for the class, and you have a rapier and elven accuracy. You get two attacks. Heck, swap to shortswords for three attacks.

That's 62% chance of critting once, and not bad odds of critting more than that. If the enemy can be frightened, you'll frighten them. That makes you really good at crowd control, albeit in a different way than the fear pally. You're just sort of this flaming beacon of fear that they can't approach.

TBH doesn't seem like great design. Too many saving throws slows down combat too much. I'm supposed to be rolling fear saves four times a round for each monster?

[AdAstra]

I find it rather odd that people don't find the Oath of Heroism strong. Like, comparing it's features to other Oaths, it stands at a very good place, arguably at the top of the heap, on a very strong class to begin with.

Spell List- Definitely less great than Vengeance, but has a lot of solid picks, like Guiding Bolt, Haste, and Conjure Volley, and the only outright bad spells on the list are Enthrall and Protection from Energy. All the other ones give you solid options that Paladins often lack.

Channel Divinity- Peerless Athlete is not the best, but you'll find places where it's useful, and if you like grappling it's great. Legendary Strike is a bit weaker than Vow of Emnity, but it's not exclusive to one target, and can stack with advantage. Paladin crits are nasty, and can trigger Mighty Deed, so with some support, or a barbarian multiclass for Reckless Attack, you're going to be getting a lot of crit-smites, that also buff/debuff others.

Mighty Deed- This one is insane. First off, there's no restriction on what creatures trigger it, so you could carry a bag of rats or whatever and basically have at-will temp HP for your entire party every encounter. Even without cheese, you're going to be killing creatures and scoring crits at least twice in most encounters. Fear, even for one round, is a strong condition to inflict, and this allows you to inflict it on multiple creatures at no resource cost as long as you're attacking things. It's not the most reliable ability in a round-by-round sense, but the only 7th level Paladin abilities that match up to this in power are the Ancients and Devotion Auras, which are far more situational, compared to this, which is almost always going to save your party a lot of HP over time. A Vengeance Paladin with PAM is also really solid, but is a specific build that only really helps you, so I would consider it far worse for the party as a whole.

Glorious Defense is by a wide margin the best Paladin ability at 15th level, except for probably a Devotion Pally in an outsider-heavy game. A big AC boost as a reaction, and if the boost works you get an attack against them. Vengeance Paladins have an ability that could almost match this, but it's tied to their Vow of Emnity, so that brings it down a lot.

Living Myth is really strong, but most similar abilities are, and by this point balance means a lot less, so it's probably fine. Still, being able to automatically succeed on saving throws and attacks is great.

Basically, while there's no real ability here that will completely break the game (though Mighty Deed comes very close if you cheese it), Heroism gives great abilities at every point. Its spell list compensates for your weaknesses and boosts your strengths, the Channel Divinity options are solid and become great if you go out of your way to take advantage of them, Mighty Deed provides free limitless buff/debuffing on a regular basis, and can be exploited for even more effect, Glorious Defense greatly increases your defense and offense at the same time, and Living Myth allows you to just ignore dice rolls. It's roughly equal or better than its peers at every turn, on a chassis that already does very well for itself. That, and all of it's abilities are useful against just about any foe, with any kind of build, and require little thought on how best to use them for maximum effect.

[Kane0]

Mighty deed is crazy.

-snip-

TBH doesn't seem like great design. Too many saving throws slows down combat too much. I'm supposed to be rolling fear saves four times a round for each monster?

Mighty Deed is once per round. 'Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until the start of your next turn.'

It's still really good though.



Mighty Deed- This one is insane. First off, there's no restriction on what creatures trigger it, so you could carry a bag of rats or whatever and basically have at-will temp HP for your entire party every encounter.

Ah crap you're right, Mighty Deed fails the Bag O' Rats test. C'mon WotC, you can do better than that.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I have personal issues with the Oath of Heroism, namely that the 7th level feature isn't an Aura. Oath of Vengeance already breaks that standard, being the only paladin subclass in print (this includes Oathbreaker and Xanathars) that doesn't gain an additional aura at 7th level. To me, Aura effects seem like the standard level 7 ability. Vengeance is enough of an oddball already, I'd hate to encourage more of that.

Mighty Deed seems like something PDK should have had, at the very least I like it more as a Fighter feature than a Paladin one. Take the fear effect away and reflavor it instead to Commanding/Inspiring Presence.

With the very opinionated problems out of the way, slightly more objective from now on - The spell list needs a slight tweak, most specifically Conjure Volley seems incredibly out of place for spells that emulate heroic actions, whether or not you believe the other spells are good they all do a decent enough job at filling a role like heroically charging into battle with Expeditious Retreat (good irony there) and Protection from Energy allowing you to be an unflappable wall against that elemental attack. I understand that Compulsion is meant to fill a spot like "the hero is always persuasive" thing but it seems a bit forced on that front, I'm confident that there are more suitable 4th level spells. Like Death Ward. Death Ward seems like the obvious pick, we know Oath Spells can already include spells available to the class and an always prepared Death Ward is very on brand for a chosen hero.

Overall, I'm not a fan of the direction the theme was taken. The subclass, mechanically though, is undeniably strong. Despite the fact that I dislike Mighty Deed I would pay good money to my DM if he let me borrow it.

EDIT: Thinking more on why I have a problem with the Oath of Heroism, it seems like an aggressive and selfish oath. Mighty Deed is at least a bit helpful in that you can use it to give THP to allies but some part of me expects it to be used more often as a fear nuke.

It doesn't really meet my expectation of a chosen Hero, too many selfish traits. I guess with that in mind, my problems would probably be lessened (or gone) if it just wasn't called Oath of Heroism.

[Fnissalot]

Mighty Deed is once per round. 'Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until the start of your next turn.'

It's still really good though.


Ah crap you're right, Mighty Deed fails the Bag O' Rats test. C'mon WotC, you can do better than that.

You could argue that the rats would go against the tenants? Crushing rats instead of fighting real enemies does not gone your body, nor is it a very heroic action.

[Arkhios]

Haven't had the time and/or patience to analyze/comment either subclass integrity and balance, but let's take a look at the big picture:

Does anyone have any idea if any (if not all) of the subclasses from the three latest UA's would fit into any one setting (even if it doesn't have a hard cover yet)?

I really doubt any of these would make it into Rising From the Last War (RFtLW or RLW?) because that book already has a commercial pitch, but there's no reason they wouldn't be up to something else.


I have personal issues with the Oath of Heroism, namely that the 7th level feature isn't an Aura. Oath of Vengeance already breaks that standard, being the only paladin subclass in print (this includes Oathbreaker and Xanathars) that doesn't gain an additional aura at 7th level. To me, Aura effects seem like the standard level 7 ability. Vengeance is enough of an oddball already, I'd hate to encourage more of that.

FWIW, Oath of the Crown has no 7th-level aura either, so "Avenger" isn't the only one without. I really wouldn't base any arguments on what's standard or not on the grounds that Avenger (1 of 3 original oaths) doesn't have a feature, when in total there are two official oaths to "break the standard" (that isn't officially admitted fact)

[Nhorianscum]

That is easily the worst paladin capstone in the game. By a lot.

[Kane0]

That is easily the worst paladin capstone in the game. By a lot.

As in broken OP?

[ProsecutorGodot]

FWIW, Oath of the Crown has no 7th-level aura either, so "Avenger" isn't the only one without. I really wouldn't base any arguments on what's standard or not on the grounds that Avenger (1 of 3 original oaths) doesn't have a feature, when in total there are two official oaths to "break the standard" (that isn't officially admitted fact)

First, disappointed in myself for missing Oath of the Crown and Second, I was clear that the Aura idea was a very opinionated point of view of mine. I'd still say that 5/7 having an aura effect at 7th level is setting a bit of a precedent.

My take on Vengeance is more in line with my edit. Vengeance is a selfish subclass but it doesn't try to disguise that, it's meant to embody it. The more I think about it the more my problem is simply with the name. I might just have a different view of the "heroic ideal" but if you're a hero your focus should be about helping others and being your best self, not entirely focused on the latter.

It's a little bit too much "I am special and you will watch me succeed" for my tastes. This could just be me putting to much of my own interests on it, maybe it's just fine but not for me. "Heroism" is more broad than I give it credit for, the most simple definition boiling down to "brave and admirable" which fits this just fine.


That is easily the worst paladin capstone in the game. By a lot.
It's a bonus action to activate (rare for a Paladin capstone) and gives players Legendary Resistance on a reaction, it can't be that bad.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Oath of Heroism doesn't have Heroism as an oath spell.
May have something to do with Heroism being a paladin spell already.

[ProsecutorGodot]

May have something to do with Heroism being a paladin spell already.

Command and Protection from Evil and Good are a few 1st level Oath Spells that are also being found on the class spell list. Redemption, Ancients and Oathbreaker are the only ones with no Paladin spells in their oath spell list.

6 of the 10 spells in the Oath of Crowns list are Paladin spells.

[Kane0]

6 of the 10 spells in the Oath of Crowns list are Paladin spells.

One more reason that poor subclass could use a do-over.

[AdAstra]

I think they could afford to make Mighty Deed require a hostile creature and be useable once per short rest and still have a solid oath, capable of supporting and bashing heads in equal measure. Luckily, it's in UA, so they have at least one more chance to nail down the balance. As much as I tore it apart, I really like the concept, and the mechanics are creative and solid, they're just a little too strong, mainly the 7th and 15th level abilities.

College of Eloquence seems simultaneously a nice take on the Bard, reliant on oratory and not music, but also easy to make into the most insufferable character possible. All the same, kinda gives off similar vibes to Planescape's "you can debate someone out of existence" thing. I don't think it's as strong as Heroism, but still on the more powerful side on a class that again, is on the upper end of power already. You can vastly improve the efficiency of your Bardic Inspiration at high levels, but I think that's offset by the arguably stronger other uses. I think the "int save or get disadvantage for a small cost" is actually one of the better ways that they've handled this issue, definitely better-balanced than Mind Sliver. I am concerned that it stacks with MS, but that's more the cantrip's problem than the ability's. Overall, I like it, and if it's stronger than it should be, it's only by a little bit. Doesn't outright beat Lore Bard, that's for sure.

I should have mentioned earlier, overall, I think they did really well with this one! I also think it's worth mentioning that the past three UAs have been delivered within two weeks of each other! I think that's worth commending, and overall, these have all been pretty solid concepts. These last two especially feel almost publication ready. I think that deserves some positivity.

[HappyDaze]

That is easily the worst paladin capstone in the game. By a lot.

It's not a big deal since all the optimizers have levels of Sorcerer too.

[rbstr]

Compared feature-to-feature I think Hero paly isn't the powercreep we've seen in some classes:
Spells are ok/good, channel divinity is stronger than Ancients (what isn't? such a lame CD) but in line or actually less strong than Sacred Weapon.
Level 7...should be an aura IMO, but whatever, it's not stronger than halving magic damage on yourself and others.
Level 15, better than "choose to not die once a day" or permanent protection from evil and good? maybe-ish? (really love this parry/riposte feature, I think it should actually be on a fighter weaponmaster/duelist class)
Level 20, very strong, but not any more so than the other paly capstones which are all incredibly strong. EXCEPT, it's a bonus action to use, instead of an action.

[Dork_Forge]

Overall I actually quite like the College of Eloquence, doesn't seem too strong whilst offering alternative uses for Bardic Inspiration dice and filling a diplomat role.

The Oath of Heroism I don't like at all, cramming Champion features into channel divinities feels like it takes away from that subclass whilst yielding unsatisfying CD options. There's already three other sublcasses in 5e that give expanded crit ranges (that I can think of at least, and one IS a Paladin) and you're spending your CD for a passive effect that might not even come up. The spell list seems mostly okay, I like guiding bolt and haste on there but no idea how Enthrall fits the theme of heroism? Mighty Deed seems very strong, both control and buff options in an unlimited use ability that should trigger enough for it to become a problem. Personally I'd just drop the fear aspect and treat it like you're inspiring your comrades, fear doesn't really fit the upstanding hero theme. Glorious Defence is cool, it's essentially a better version of Defensive Duelist but fits better on a Fighter subclass than a Paladin imo. Living Myth is also over the top, triggers on a BA, legendary resistance on a reaction and what counts as a one per rest captsone for a Rogue is every turn within a ten minute window in a feature that grants two other benefits?

If Heroism does see publication I hope it gets changed (and nerfed), at the moment it's just silly and counterintuitive to it's own themes.

[AdAstra]

Compared feature-to-feature I think Hero paly isn't the powercreep we've seen in some classes:
Spells are ok/good, channel divinity is stronger than Ancients (what isn't? such a lame CD) but in line or actually less strong than Sacred Weapon.
Level 7...should be an aura IMO, but whatever, it's not stronger than halving magic damage on yourself and others.
Level 15, better than "choose to not die once a day" or permanent protection from evil and good? maybe-ish? (really love this parry/riposte feature, I think it should actually be on a fighter weaponmaster/duelist class)
Level 20, very strong, but not any more so than the other paly capstones which are all incredibly strong. EXCEPT, it's a bonus action to use, instead of an action.

-Ah, forgot about Sacred Weapon, but the action cost of it is a real killer. Also the expanded crit range, while probably weaker in a vacuum, becomes far more powerful the more things you stack it with. Advantage is not hard to get, and if you pick up Elven Accuracy, you can have a ~27% chance of a crit per attack. Smites will spike your crit damage through the roof, and the crits will activate Mighty Deed.

-I would argue that Mighty Deed is stronger than Aura of Warding in all but the most spell-heavy games (note the damage resistance only applies to damage from spells, not all magic damage). The aura is restricted in range, and Paladins do best in melee, so there will be many situations where people will be outside it. Mighty Deed has the same range as an 18th level paladin's aura, and once someone's received the temp HP they don't have to stay in it. And even if everyone in range already has THP, you can still give enemies fear, which causes disadvantage on their attacks. Damage from spells is only a small (in most games) subset of the damage players will take, so I think long-term, Mighty Deed will probably prevent more damage.

-Not dying once a day is certainly good, but half-orcs can get that as just one of their racial abilities. It just doesn't compare to either of the other two options. Again, just like the Ancients Aura, Protection from Evil and Good is amazing, but only in situations where it applies. It probably applies more often than the aura, but still less than being able to turn any attack into a miss and counterattack. Once again, I feel that Glorious Defense will probably prevent more grief in the long run, as well as providing a hefty boost to your DPS.

-Can't argue much with the capstone. If it's ahead of other ones at all, it's only by a little.

The problem with the Oath of Heroism isn't that there's one crazy ability, it's that unlike other Oaths, there's nowhere that it really falls short. There are next to no situations where it won't be able to bring all of its abilities to bear, and they're all really strong abilities.
Ancients has a garbage CD, and middling everything else except for the Aura, which only achieves its potential if your DM throws a decent number of damage-slinging spellcasters at you.
Devotion has strong CDs, and situational but near-brokenly good 7th and 15th level abilities, but the spells are pretty bleh, and the CDs require a full action, and thus have a heavy opportunity cost in combat. Plus again, dependent on what things your DM throws at you, though less so than with Ancients.
Vengeance, which is generally considered the strongest PHB Oath (I would contest that personally), has CDs that are not the best, but extremely dependable against high-priority targets, especially Vow of Emnity. The spells are incredible, but the 7th level feature is meh unless you build for it (in which case it can be really strong), and the 15th level feature, while powerful, is tied to Vow, which limits it heavily.
Conquest comes very very close. Its CDs and spells are extremely solid, and reinforce each other to be amazing in combination with the aura. The 15th level feature is also good, and the capstone is arguably the strongest of any paladin. It does however, run into the issue of the Aura needing limited spells and CD uses to be of any use, and a great deal of the class being useless against fear-immune creatures. That resource constraint is especially impactful for Paladins, who can already burn through their resources at frightening speed if they're not careful.

EDIT: Also, to Dork_Forge, I think Enthrall is probably meant as like, distracting the target with tales of your heroic deeds? Along the lines of "So I was walking in the forest, and this HUGE dragon...and anyway, that's why I always carry my forks in my pants pocket"

[Benny89]

I find Oath of Herois strange...Ok, so first of all:

1. It has expanded crit range but doesn't have any way of gaining advantage so while at first you may thing: yay, elven accuracy fishing! - actually first you need to get advantage somehow, and only other character in party can give you that. Or multiclass but then it kind of sucks in non-multiclass setting. I think Devotion and Vengeance are still better combat option.

2. It's combat subclass but it has no way to increase accuracy so it's much worse with GWM than Devotion or Vengeance who can get bonus to hit or advantage to off-set GWM. Heroism doesn't have any and I will argue that chance to hit > chance to crit.

3. It clearly says about scuplting your body etc. and focus on physical aspect of Paladin, yet all features get bonuses from Charisma modifier so Charismas ASI will still be way more important (Mighty Deed, Glorious Defense, Aura of Protection). I would say that Heroism needs to focus on CHA more than Vengeance where you could go for STR over Cha quite easy. I think they didn't think it through.

4. Mighty Deed seems great if you think about scoring critical hits with expanded crit- but you need advantage first, otherwise that crit chance is not really that impressive and you will probably only use it when you reduce enemy to 0, which might be funny fighting horde of weak enemies but in combat with stronger one- won't be used at all. Imo way weaker than perma-effects of Devotion, Ancients etc.

Well, if it goes as it seems it will be mandatory to dip 3 levels of Hexblade for Darkness + Devil Sight combo with half-elf to crit fish all day.

[DeTess]

Oath of Heroism sounds like the chosen of those fickle, dickish Greek gods.

This is an interesting catch actually, because the bard sub-class also fits into a classical Greece theme with the focus on debate and reason.

[Fnissalot]

I find Oath of Herois strange...Ok, so first of all:

1. It has expanded crit range but doesn't have any way of gaining advantage so while at first you may thing: yay, elven accuracy fishing! - actually first you need to get advantage somehow, and only other character in party can give you that. Or multiclass but then it kind of sucks in non-multiclass setting. I think Devotion and Vengeance are still better combat option.

2. It's combat subclass but it has no way to increase accuracy so it's much worse with GWM than Devotion or Vengeance who can get bonus to hit or advantage to off-set GWM. Heroism doesn't have any and I will argue that chance to hit > chance to crit.

3. It clearly says about scuplting your body etc. and focus on physical aspect of Paladin, yet all features get bonuses from Charisma modifier so Charismas ASI will still be way more important (Mighty Deed, Glorious Defense, Aura of Protection). I would say that Heroism needs to focus on CHA more than Vengeance where you could go for STR over Cha quite easy. I think they didn't think it through.

4. Mighty Deed seems great if you think about scoring critical hits with expanded crit- but you need advantage first, otherwise that crit chance is not really that impressive and you will probably only use it when you reduce enemy to 0, which might be funny fighting horde of weak enemies but in combat with stronger one- won't be used at all. Imo way weaker than perma-effects of Devotion, Ancients etc.

Well, if it goes as it seems it will be mandatory to dip 3 levels of Hexblade for Darkness + Devil Sight combo with half-elf to crit fish all day.

Sculpting or honing your body could mean building it to be visual perfection (ie charisma), not actually being strong or enduring, or from RP standpoint flexing and walking in place instead of sitting on the couch.


This is an interesting catch actually, because the bard sub-class also fits into a classical Greece theme with the focus on debate and reason.

That is why it will be great when people start running odyssey of the dragonlords.

[jaappleton]

Are ya’ll actually complaining about the power of a lv20 feature?

.....HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SEEN WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER LV20 FEATURES DO?!

It’s level 20. The maximum level. It’s supposed to be a bit crazy.

[Arkhios]

Are ya’ll actually complaining about the power of a lv20 feature?

.....HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SEEN WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER LV20 FEATURES DO?!

It’s level 20. The maximum level. It’s supposed to be a bit crazy.

*pushes eyeglasses up the nose* "But it's not balanced with others!"

In other words ....yeah. I agree. Complaining about something you get at 20th level (especially considering everyone still has all the other features from previous levels on top of that) is ridiculous.

[Dork_Forge]

Are ya’ll actually complaining about the power of a lv20 feature?

.....HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SEEN WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER LV20 FEATURES DO?!

It’s level 20. The maximum level. It’s supposed to be a bit crazy.

Exclusively about the 20th level feature? No. On top of the rest of the subclass? Yes.

20th level features sure can be crazy, but there's no reason for it to take a BA when all other Oath capstones (that are a super mode) require an action and it's arguably up there with the best of the Paladin capstones (whilst stepping on the Rogue's capstone toes).

[AdAstra]

Are ya’ll actually complaining about the power of a lv20 feature?

.....HAVE YOU ACTUALLY SEEN WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER LV20 FEATURES DO?!

It’s level 20. The maximum level. It’s supposed to be a bit crazy.

As far as I can tell, it's the least of the subclass's problems, and I don't think anyone's been complaining about it all that much in comparison to other things. If they have, it's probably because it allows you to do things that in general, you just can't do, much less for one minute per long rest as a bonus action. Auto-succeeding on saving throws is, as far as I'm aware, entirely unique to this subclass. The closest equivalent is like, Diviners substituting their own saves. The only thing I can remember that matches the auto-hit is the Swashbuckler's lvl. 17 ability and Stroke of Luck at Rogue 20. And at least in theory, you can get a lot more free saves/auto-hits per long rest with Living Myth. Again, I agree with you, it's not all that much, and I think most people feel the same way, but if I'm wrong about the second thing, that's probably why, in addition to what Dork_Forge said. It's just one more great thing on top of a bunch more great things.

[jaappleton]

As far as I can tell, it's the least of the subclass's problems, and I don't think anyone's been complaining about it all that much in comparison to other things. If they have, it's probably because it allows you to do things that in general, you just can't do, much less for one minute per long rest as a bonus action. Auto-succeeding on saving throws is, as far as I'm aware, entirely unique to this subclass. The closest equivalent is like, Diviners substituting their own saves. The only thing I can remember that matches the auto-hit is the Swashbuckler's lvl. 17 ability and Stroke of Luck at Rogue 20. And at least in theory, you can get a lot more free saves/auto-hits per long rest with Living Myth. Again, I agree with you, it's not all that much, and I think most people feel the same way, but if I'm wrong about the second thing, that's probably why, in addition to what Dork_Forge said. It's just one more great thing on top of a bunch more great things.

Yeah you turn a miss into a hit, which rules. But Paladins only get two attacks.

Even with a Scimitar of Speed, PAM, etc, that's still only 3 attacks in your turn.

[Sigreid]

I'm curious what you mean by this. Is it a concern this kind of build might encourage DMs not to let non-magic calming or persuasive attempts succeed when another party member has the subclass? Or that it might encourage players to leave it all to the one with the magic power for it? ... Something else?

More the first really. There's already a tendency among some to only let things be accomplished via magic. You see 8t a lot on this board when the caster superiority discussions pop up.

[Cybren]

Does no one else think that some of the eloquence mechanics are like, substantially more fiddly than 5e usually is? As a bonus action you get to force a save to give them disadvantage on the save? Free uses of bardic inspiration but you have a separate resource pool to use it? Odd.

The Oath of Heroism’s actual Oath totally blows, though.

[diplomancer]

I find Oath of Herois strange...Ok, so first of all:

1. It has expanded crit range but doesn't have any way of gaining advantage so while at first you may thing: yay, elven accuracy fishing! - actually first you need to get advantage somehow, and only other character in party can give you that. Or multiclass but then it kind of sucks in non-multiclass setting. I think Devotion and Vengeance are still better combat option.

2. It's combat subclass but it has no way to increase accuracy so it's much worse with GWM than Devotion or Vengeance who can get bonus to hit or advantage to off-set GWM. Heroism doesn't have any and I will argue that chance to hit > chance to crit.

3. It clearly says about scuplting your body etc. and focus on physical aspect of Paladin, yet all features get bonuses from Charisma modifier so Charismas ASI will still be way more important (Mighty Deed, Glorious Defense, Aura of Protection). I would say that Heroism needs to focus on CHA more than Vengeance where you could go for STR over Cha quite easy. I think they didn't think it through.

4. Mighty Deed seems great if you think about scoring critical hits with expanded crit- but you need advantage first, otherwise that crit chance is not really that impressive and you will probably only use it when you reduce enemy to 0, which might be funny fighting horde of weak enemies but in combat with stronger one- won't be used at all. Imo way weaker than perma-effects of Devotion, Ancients etc.

Well, if it goes as it seems it will be mandatory to dip 3 levels of Hexblade for Darkness + Devil Sight combo with half-elf to crit fish all day.

I think you are ignoring a lot of different ways of getting advantage, which is what makes this feature so good (and, in my opinion, better than the Oath of Vengeance channel divinity); you can shove your enemies, you can be invisible (D&D is a group game, after all), you can have the mounted combatant feat (Paladins get the most mileage out of it already), you can get a Familiar to give you the Help action, (but that is a considerable cost), and probably a ton of other ways I can't think of right now

[Dork_Forge]

snip

Undeniable Logic gives actual hp not temp.

[HappyDaze]

10 minute duration on the OaHeroism capstone is going to be weird. I can see some players trying to rush from encounter to encounter to maximize the 100 combat turns.

[diplomancer]

Undeniable Logic gives actual hp not temp.

Yes, I mixed it up with the Mighty Deed of the Paladin and then, realizing my mistake, deleted that part. My bad.

[nickl_2000]

I think you are ignoring a lot of different ways of getting advantage, which is what makes this feature so good (and, in my opinion, better than the Oath of Vengeance channel divinity); you can shove your enemies, you can be invisible (D&D is a group game, after all), you can have the mounted combatant feat (Paladins get the most mileage out of it already), you can get a Familiar to give you the Help action, (but that is a considerable cost), and probably a ton of other ways I can't think of right now

Fairie Fire, Help Action from allies, attacking someone prone, attacking someone asleep, attacking someone held, Guiding Bolt, one of the Battlemaster Maneuvers, frankly advantage isn't all that hard to get.

[diplomancer]

Before Xanathar's Hexblade, some people recommended getting 3 champion levels as a Paladin for the expanded crit range. THAT'S how powerful the Channel Divinity is; if I'm playing a Hero I will push for short rests almost as much as a warlock, and probably more than a monk.

[VonKaiserstein]

To me, this oath has the potential for the most ironic paladins out there. Brave Sir Robin, and Sir Lancelot from Monty Python's quest for the holy grail would be right at home here. Slaying their way into a peaceful village because they heard someone crying out for help, then waiting to escape until they could do it in a way that fit their particular heroic ... idiom.

The Tick could also easily be played this way, so self concerned with being a hero that they're almost as good as they think they are.

Or at their very best RP potential, they were the last survivor of a battle that resulted in a dead monster, and thus became a hero- now they're trying to stay one step ahead of the legend, although they really don't want anything to do with it. Think Ciaphas Caine from Warhammer 40k. Playing someone who has to be heroic so they can continue to be thought of as heroic is delightful! You'll buy the bar a merry round, roaring out a ribald ballad through your awful hangover. You'll publicly present the image of the party hard everyday I'm in town, until evil next raises its head while privately feeling like Slurms McKenzie, trapped by your reputation.

[Willie the Duck]

First, disappointed in myself for missing Oath of the Crown and Second, I was clear that the Aura idea was a very opinionated point of view of mine. I'd still say that 5/7 having an aura effect at 7th level is setting a bit of a precedent.

All those precedents seem to be pretty loose. One Ranger subclass and one fighter subclass get proficiency in Wisdom saves at 7th level where otherwise there might have been a ribbon ability. To me, at least, it seems clear that the designers are perfectly willing to inflate or deflate a at-given-level feature in order to make the overall archetype appropriately powered (in their mind).


I find Oath of Herois strange...Ok, so first of all:

1. It has expanded crit range but doesn't have any way of gaining advantage so while at first you may thing: yay, elven accuracy fishing! - actually first you need to get advantage somehow, and only other character in party can give you that.

They have an ability which gives advantage on grapple checks. Off the top of my head, the thing to do with this is make a half-elven paladin and grab shield master, prodigy (athletics), and elven accuracy and lobby your DM to rule that you get to make your slam check before you attack with your shield master ability. Rather specific and iffy, but then again this is UA, a place to experiment.

[LudicSavant]

Before Xanathar's Hexblade, some people recommended getting 3 champion levels as a Paladin for the expanded crit range. THAT'S how powerful the Channel Divinity is; if I'm playing a Hero I will push for short rests almost as much as a warlock, and probably more than a monk.

Over a 3 round fight with Extra Attack, the Channel Divinity will (on average) give you somewhere around 1/3rd to 2/3rds of an extra crit depending on your variables (e.g. whether you have Advantage, whether you have a bonus action attack, etc). At the cost of your bonus action. Once per short rest.

As such I'm rather curious what the cause for caps lock is. Care to elaborate?


They have an ability which gives advantage on grapple checks. Off the top of my head, the thing to do with this is make a half-elven paladin and grab shield master, prodigy (athletics), and elven accuracy and lobby your DM to rule that you get to make your slam check before you attack with your shield master ability. Rather specific and iffy, but then again this is UA, a place to experiment.

You can either get the expanded crit range, or the Advantage on shove/grapple. You can't get both at the same time.

[Willie the Duck]

You can either get the expanded crit range, or the Advantage on shove/grapple. You can't get both at the same time.

Hmm. Hadn't noticed that. Perhaps it is to prevent the setup I imagined. This makes me wonder if WotC doesn't think a warrior type giving itself advantage and then also having a great way to capitalize upon it has been that great. I certainly imagine that no few amount of people have given them feedback telling them that vengeance paladins and hexblades are OP.

[diplomancer]

Over a 3 round fight with Extra Attack, the Channel Divinity will (on average) give you somewhere around 1/3rd to 2/3rds of an extra crit depending on your variables (e.g. whether you have Advantage, whether you have a bonus action attack, etc). At the cost of your bonus action. Once per short rest.

As such I'm rather curious what the cause for caps lock is. Care to elaborate?

Caps lock is to point out that, if multi-classing to 3 levels of champion is a reasonable option (not necessarily the best option, but a good one nonetheless), getting that for the cost of a bonus action is very good. Contrast all the many different ways there are to get Advantage (the Oath of Vengeance CD) to how few ways there are to get an expanded crit-range.

I will always disagree with this whole "3 round fight" thing. In my experience 3 rounds is the bare minimum a combat where you would want to use your resources will last. I understand that this whole "3 rounds idea" comes not from experience but from the expected number of rounds 1 monster can last., though I'm willing to be corrected there.

If you have a 6 encounter days with 2 SR, you are expected to use this ability in half the combats, which you would save for the most difficult ones. It's very good, better than all the channel divinities of the PHB oaths (I do not have enough experience with the Xanathar oaths to contrast it to). So, for half of the day and for the cost of 1 bonus action per combat, you will have what would take you 3 levels of Champion otherwise.

[Protolisk]

Heroism Paladins also get Haste, freeing up their allied Wizards or Sorcerers to use their concentrations on something else instead. That means more attacks per turn and higher AC. Vengeance paladins get it, too, though.

Vengeance also gets their Channel Divinity to target a single target for free advantage on a single target(to stack crits), while Heroism paladins get this 19-20 range (to stack crits). Each in a vacuum provide fairly similar crit chances (Advantage means about 9.75 chance per hit to crit, 19-20 is a flat 10% chance per hit to crit). Vengeance is also more about chasing down a single target so it can't escape at level 7, Heroism paladins are all about dealing killing blows or criting anyway. In order to get reliable kills this way, you'd need to be targeting the close to dead, or just outright weak enemies.

Heroism feels more about slaying the masses instead of going for the big guy, but they are still a Paladin, so big guys aren't that difficult either. Conjure Volley only increases the "I need to kill many enemies really fast" idea they seem to be going for. Lots of speed and movement boosting spells.

They also both get an easy reaction at level 15, but Vengeance is easier to obtain, as it is whenever their target makes an attack, the paladin gets a free reaction attack. Heroism still needs their enemies to attack the paladin themselves, and needs to miss even with the charisma based "shield" effect to attack back. It's more restrictive in a different way.

To me, it looks like really similar to Vengeance, but without the whole "vengeance" thing.

[LudicSavant]

Caps lock is to point out that, if multi-classing to 3 levels of champion is a reasonable option (not necessarily the best option, but a good one nonetheless), getting that for the cost of a bonus action is very good. You say that almost like you're taking those 3 levels just for Improved Critical.

You get more than an expanded crit range (all day, with no action cost) from 3 levels in Champion. You also get +1 AC (fighting style), Second Wind, and Action Surge.


It's very good, better than all the channel divinities of the PHB oaths

Vow of Enmity not only improves your crit rate (having Advantage nearly doubles it, or triples with Elven Accuracy), it also makes you much more likely to hit. And it too is a bonus action.

[hellgrammite]

Reskinning the Paladin one slightly from Heroism to Oath of Egomania. Should work nicely for a Templar for an upcoming Dark Sun campaign.

[Spiritchaser]

On its own, I don’t think the CD is necessarily better than Vow of enmity, but there are many ways to create advantage. There are relatively few ways to expand crit range.

The potential issue with the expanded crit range is that it further strengthens builds which are already relatively strong.

Most of those do come online later, and it might be ok, but it certainly does need some thought.

[diplomancer]

You say that almost like you're taking those 3 levels just for Improved Critical.

You get more than an expanded crit range (all day, with no action cost) from 3 levels in Champion. You also get +1 AC (fighting style), Second Wind, and Action Surge.

If you take 3 levels of Champion you are doing it for the expanded crit range. You get other good things on the way, true, but you are doing it for that, since that's all you get at level 3 Champion.

I agree that it is not as powerful as the Champion ability, but it is worth at least 1.5 levels of multi-classing (half of the combats- maybe more depending on how many short rests you can squeeze in, one bonus action per combat cost).

Let's try to think of this another way; what spell level would it be to have a bonus action, non-concentration spell that gives you an expanded crit range? How good would a feat be?

If I remember correctly, there are two magic items that give you an expanded crit-range; one is legendary, the other is an artifact.


On its own, I don’t think the CD is necessarily better than Vow of enmity, but there are many ways to create advantage. There are relatively few ways to expand crit range.

The potential issue with the expanded crit range is that it further strengthens builds which are already relatively strong.

Most of those do come online later, and it might be ok, but it certainly does need some thought.

Yes, that's my point. Getting advantage is easy. Getting an extended crit-range is very hard and costly (though now that Xanathar is out, far less costly... still -some DMs ban hexblade, some players find hexblade cheesy and don't like to get it, and some of those who find hexblade ok still don't like the fluff of mixing warlock and paladin). Vow of Enmity also only applies to one enemy.

[strangebloke]

Mighty Deed is once per round. 'Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until the start of your next turn.'

It's still really good though.

Ah I missed that.

But yeah, we're getting to the point where there's almost too many means of getting tHP. A glamor bard, heroism paladin, fighter with inspiring leader, and tempest barb are going to be really struggling with how much overlap they have. And that's ignoring 'selfish' tHp generators like Warlocks.

Anybody else thinking that a Heroism Pally and a Wolf Totem Barb are possible the best melee buddy cops ever? Paladin boosts barb saves, grants tHp, which the barb effectively doubles. Barb grants advantage and has higher baseline damage but paladin deals with crowds better and can nuke single targets.

[LudicSavant]

I will always disagree with this whole "3 round fight" thing. In my experience 3 rounds is the bare minimum My experience differs, with even Deadly++ encounters with multiple creatures frequently going down in 3 rounds or less to veteran players.

My experience is also that even when they go longer, the first few rounds tend to be the most important. There is a reason why optimizers emphasize the importance of initiative so much.


Let's try to think of this another way; what spell level would it be to have a bonus action, non-concentration spell that gives you an expanded crit range? How good would a feat be?

A feat that gave you 1/SR expanded crit range for a minute for a bonus action would not be a very good feat.

How about we think of it in a more useful and practical way: Make a Paladin of Heroism build that you feel is too powerful, then we can see how it compares to other builds competing for its job and determine whether it's better, worse, or comparable.

[diplomancer]

My experience differs, with even Deadly++ encounters
with multiple creatures frequently going down in 3 rounds or less to veteran players.

My experience is also that even when they go longer, the first few rounds tend to be the most important. There is a reason why optimizers emphasize the importance of initiative so much.



A feat that gave you 1/SR expanded crit range for a minute for a bonus action would not be a very good feat.

How about we think of it in a more useful and practical way, and you actually show us a build with what you consider to be overpowered damage output for a Paladin using this CD, then compare it to other builds competing for the same job?

I think the difference in our perspectives is that you are thinking of the mathematics of improved crit range in the abstract (which I agree are not that impressive on it's own), while I am considering it for a Paladin (who loves crits more than anyone else except high level rogues, who have less chances of getting them anyway) that optimizes for it by using one of the numerous ways of getting advantage.

Also, it is not my position that this is massively overpowered. It is my position that it is better than the other channel divinities, once you factor in how relatively easy it is to get advantage as the game progresses.

[Willie the Duck]

To my mind, the #1 good thing about the expanded crit range CD as opposed to vengeance paladin's is that it isn't constrained to a single opponent. BBEG fights are a thing, but in between them there are a lot of '4 equally challenging moderately tough opponent' fights.

[jaappleton]

To my mind, the #1 good thing about the expanded crit range CD as opposed to vengeance paladin's is that it isn't constrained to a single opponent. BBEG fights are a thing, but in between them there are a lot of '4 equally challenging moderately tough opponent' fights.

A VERY good point. Its why despite Vengeance being so good, I never pick it: Sure I go HAM on one enemy, then what? Its why I prefer Devotion's CD > Vengeance, but Devotions is an action to activate (Which seriously sucks for action economy).

This? There's a decent chance it doesn't proc at all during a fight... which sucks. It does.
But if it does? Oooooh, you really laid the hurt on somebody.

[diplomancer]

Getting Advantage is easy. Getting an extended crit-range is not. So, a channel divinity that grants you advantage against one enemy is worse than a channel divinity that gives you an extended crit-range. That is the extent of my argument in this thread (i.e, that having advantage AND an extended crit-range- easy to get with this Paladin- is better than just having advantage... yes, it's obvious, but still), and I see no need of developing a build to prove that.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Wow, I need my DM to let me change from Glamour to Eloquence.

I worked hard to get the same abilities the Eloquence gives for my Glamour bard.



He agreed, not to write is as Homebrew in D&D Beyond :)

[LudicSavant]

I think the difference in our perspectives is that you are thinking of the mathematics of improved crit range in the abstract (which I agree are not that impressive on it's own), while I am considering it for a Paladin (who loves crits more than anyone else except high level rogues, who have less chances of getting them anyway) that optimizes for it by using one of the numerous ways of getting advantage.

Considering it for a Paladin that optimizes for it is exactly what I've been asking you to do. :smallconfused:


How about we think of it in a more useful and practical way: Make a Paladin of Heroism build that you feel is too powerful, then we can see how it compares to other builds competing for its job and determine whether it's better, worse, or comparable.

[Spiritchaser]

How about we think of it in a more useful and practical way, and you actually show us a build with what you consider to be overpowered damage output for a Paladin using this CD, then compare it to other builds competing for the same job?

I’ll jump in here with two builds, though given that the intangibles may be more important than the numbers, I’m not sure what it’ll prove.

Half Elven Dex Sorcadin with EA and running shadow blade. Level 20 vs AC 20

Vengence/Divine Soul vs. Heroism/Divine Soul (I like DS for this because thaumaturgy and shadow blade go rather well together)

I’ve done this with Paladin 12/8, though 8/12 would be great as well.

5th level spell for shadow blade, dim light or darkness, with the legendary strike up. Quickened GFB or BB.

The vengence sorcadin gets 101.4 DPR (counting miss and crits) before smites, and has a 37% chance of scoring a crit to smite on. (the crit damage is included for base damage, smite is not)
The Heroism sorcadin gets 111.8 DPR (counting miss and crits) before smites, and has a 61% chance of scoring a crit to smite on. (The crit damage is included for base damage, smite is not)

A 10% damage bonus is a pretty big deal on its own, about the same as adding Elven accuracy to a build like this...and that extra opportunity for crit smites is likely worth more than that, however:

It takes an extra round to fully come on line, a round where that vengence sorcadin can be murdering something with a quickened GFB

It eliminates the backup option to generate advantage that the vengence sorcadin has through vow of enmity if you’re fighting outside during the day.

I really think that the 10%, plus extra crits, while very strong, aren’t worth the price of admission on their own.

Now: add in the control from mighty deed and this starts to look a whole lot less ambiguous. You’ll be doing so much damage, and gritting so much, that you’ll likely proc fear on most rounds.

[Protolisk]

A VERY good point. Its why despite Vengeance being so good, I never pick it: Sure I go HAM on one enemy, then what? Its why I prefer Devotion's CD > Vengeance, but Devotions is an action to activate (Which seriously sucks for action economy).

This? There's a decent chance it doesn't proc at all during a fight... which sucks. It does.
But if it does? Oooooh, you really laid the hurt on somebody.

Between this issue (multi-target) and the fact at advantage is easy to get (many spells, making an enemy go prone, even Vengeance could just use Hold Person instead of their own vow) the Heroism CD looks a lot better.

[strangebloke]

To my mind, the #1 good thing about the expanded crit range CD as opposed to vengeance paladin's is that it isn't constrained to a single opponent. BBEG fights are a thing, but in between them there are a lot of '4 equally challenging moderately tough opponent' fights.

You can precast it, it lasts for the whole fight, it doesn't compete with spells like hunter's mark (which is a big thing for vPally's) and its much easier for a heroism paladin to get advantage than it is for the vengeance pally to get increased crit range.

I see it as more generally robust ability. Obviously the vPally has higher white-room damage but with the support of the party that difference will be less. For example from levels 3-4 the wizard can grant advantage on functionally all attacks.

Hah. For a brutal low-level campaign, try a a vHuman hPaladin with GWM, working with a wizard.

[LudicSavant]

I’ll jump in here with two builds, though given that the intangibles may be more important than the numbers, I’m not sure what it’ll prove.

Half Elven Dex Sorcadin with EA and running shadow blade. Level 20 vs AC 20

Vengence/Divine Soul vs. Heroism/Divine Soul (I like DS for this because thaumaturgy and shadow blade go rather well together)

I’ve done this with Paladin 12/8, though 8/12 would be great as well.

5th level spell for shadow blade, dim light or darkness, with the legendary strike up. Quickened GFB or BB.

The vengence sorcadin gets 101.4 DPR (counting miss and crits) before smites, and has a 37% chance of scoring a crit to smite on. (the crit damage is included for base damage, smite is not)
The Heroism sorcadin gets 111.8 DPR (counting miss and crits) before smites, and has a 61% chance of scoring a crit to smite on. (The crit damage is included for base damage, smite is not)

A 10% damage bonus is a pretty big deal on its own, about the same as adding Elven accuracy to a build like this...and that extra opportunity for crit smites is likely worth more than that, however:

It takes an extra round to fully come on line, a round where that vengence sorcadin can be murdering something with a quickened GFB

It eliminates the backup option to generate advantage that the vengence sorcadin has through vow of enmity if you’re fighting outside during the day.

I really think that the 10%, plus extra crits, while very strong, aren’t worth the price of admission on their own.

Now: add in the control from mighty deed and this starts to look a whole lot less ambiguous. You’ll be doing so much damage, and gritting so much, that you’ll likely proc fear on most rounds.

Thanks for the answer! :smallsmile:

[Benny89]

What are you talking about? I'm the one who was talking specifically about its usefulness for a Heroism Paladin, and you're the one who has been talking about the expanded crit range in a vacuum and trying to abstract it to an individual feat, spell, or the like. So this quote seems exactly backwards to me.

So I'll repeat my request, asking you to consider it specifically for a Paladin that optimizes for it and share your results so that we can take a look.

I agree with Ludic that Heroism crit range is not really good CD. First of all: you need advantage. Paladin by himself has NO way to get advantage apart from Vengeance. Shield Master is a feat/ASI lost and depends too highly on DM RAI when you can bash.

2 attacks per turn (even 3 with haste) with just 19-20 crit range will give almost no improvement in your crit chance.

Of course you can say that other people can give you advantage. But if I get advantage from different character - then it's not really Heroism that is outstanding, right? Every Paladin benefits GREATLY from advantage from other classes.

Now, of course we can multiclass our Paladin to get: Fearie Fire or Darkness/Devil Sight combo. But again - we need to multiclass.

By itself Herois is not really that impressive combat Paladin. Pure Devotion with GWM or Pure Vengeance with PAM GWM are better combat Paladins.

Also I would like to remind that every Paladin get easy get 19-20 crit range by simple Hexblade dip. Sure, vs one target but you can get it. And I doubt many people would waste Smite on crit vs some simple mob and would rather use precious Smite slot when your crit something that is worth smitting in the first place. As my experienced proved- I almost never burnt Smite on crit if that crit wasn't on enemy caster or "boss". And if I was attacking enemy caster or boss- VoE or Hex Curse would already be on him/her.

Hence why I am not impressed by Heroism CD.

[Justin Sane]

Even if the DPR values for a hPaladin and a vPaladin are comparable, hPaladin has a few advantages in the damage department, IMHO:

First is pressure - damage spikes put a lot of defensive pressure on your opponent, and the Paladin chassis is made to capitalize on that advantage.

Second is the experience - crits are fun, and I would rather play a fun class than with a boring yet reliable one.

[diplomancer]

I agree with Ludic that Heroism crit range is not really good CD. First of all: you need advantage. Paladin by himself has NO way to get advantage apart from Vengeance. Shield Master is a feat/ASI lost and depends too highly on DM RAI when you can bash.

2 attacks per turn (even 3 with haste) with just 19-20 crit range will give almost no improvement in your crit chance.

Of course you can say that other people can give you advantage. But if I get advantage from different character - then it's not really Heroism that is outstanding, right? Every Paladin benefits GREATLY from advantage from other classes.

Now, of course we can multiclass our Paladin to get: Fearie Fire or Darkness/Devil Sight combo. But again - we need to multiclass.

By itself Herois is not really that impressive combat Paladin. Pure Devotion with GWM or Pure Vengeance with PAM GWM are better combat Paladins.

Also I would like to remind that every Paladin get easy get 19-20 crit range by simple Hexblade dip. Sure, vs one target but you can get it. And I doubt many people would waste Smite on crit vs some simple mob and would rather use precious Smite slot when your crit something that is worth smitting in the first place. As my experienced proved- I almost never burnt Smite on crit if that crit wasn't on enemy caster or "boss". And if I was attacking enemy caster or boss- VoE or Hex Curse would already be on him/her.

Hence why I am not impressed by Heroism CD.

Mounted combatant feat gives you a relatively reliable, action-cost-free advantage (while greatly improving the survivability of your mount, a reasonably important consideration for Paladins, a melee class with low mobility)

All Paladins benefit greatly from getting advantage from other classes, but this one benefits more. So this ability basically makes all the advantage-giving abilities of other party members better. As someone pointed out in this thread, the ideal melee pair now is a wolf-barbarian and a hero paladin. They make each other considerably more powerful.

Not all games allow multi class. Of those who do, some ban Hexblade dipping. Of those who don't ban it, some players dislike the theme of mixing warlocks and paladins. Of those who are ok with that, some are offput by the cheesiness and clichedness of the hexblade dip. Even if you pass all these hurdles, a Paladin that dipped warlock will have the improved crit-range against one creature in about half the fights. The Hero Paladin that dips hexblade will have it in just about every fight (some of them against all enemies, some of them against just one).

Finally, I agree that you should save your higher level smites for the big bosses. But if I crit as a Paladin I will almost always use at least a one level smite, unless I think the creature is already going to die without it anyway. 4d8 (6d8 if fiend or undead), no action-cost damage is very good damage for a 1st level slot.

[Misterwhisper]

The bard subclass looks a little weak and meh.

The paladin one is a hair strong but nothing I would say out of line.

[jaappleton]

The bard subclass looks a little weak and meh.

The paladin one is a hair strong but nothing I would say out of line.

Wait wait wait wait.

Did we...

Are we in agreement this UA is fairly acceptable?

Find out what Cleric used Divine Intervention, because this is a miracle!

[LudicSavant]

I agree with Ludic that Heroism crit range is not really good CD. I must note that I haven't actually settled on my verdict yet on how good it is. I'm still digesting. Just was curious about whether Diplomancer had already run the numbers and found something scary, to save me the effort of running more numbers myself :smalltongue:

[Damon_Tor]

Mighty Deed is once per round. 'Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until the start of your next turn.'

It's still really good though.


Ah crap you're right, Mighty Deed fails the Bag O' Rats test. C'mon WotC, you can do better than that.

It should have a minimum CR to trigger it, equal to 1/4 your character level or higher. The deed has to be mighty, after all.

[Amechra]

The bard subclass looks a little weak and meh.

I kinda wish they had gone all-in on boosting Bardic Inspiration itself a little more - Infectious Inspiration is somewhat wasted on a subclass that has alternate ways of spending that resource. I mean, it'd be fantastic on a Valor Bard.

[Spiritchaser]

It should have a minimum CR to trigger it, equal to 1/4 your character level or higher. The deed has to be mighty, after all.

Or make it valid against a target that had taken a hostile action against the player or an ally within x rounds

[diplomancer]

Or make it valid against a target that had taken a hostile action against the player or an ally within x rounds

The ability does say it's deeds "on the battlefield"... fluff vs crunch, I know, but usually that sort of cheese just gets a NOPE from the DM and that's it. They will probably correct it at some point.

[LudicSavant]

The ability does say it's deeds "on the battlefield"... fluff vs crunch, I know, but usually that sort of cheese just gets a NOPE from the DM and that's it. They will probably correct it at some point.

I also don't like that Mighty Deed doesn't have the temp HP expire. So it sort of rewards you for finding a decidedly unmighty deed to build up the party's temp HP before they go and perform an actually mighty deed.

Yes, it's something the DM can just say "NOPE" to, but with better written rules they wouldn't have to. It's inelegant, and I hope they do indeed correct it at some point.

[jaappleton]

I also don't like that Mighty Deed doesn't have the temp HP expire. So it sort of rewards you for finding a decidedly unmighty deed to build up the party's temp HP before they go and perform an actually mighty deed.

Yes, it's something the DM can just say "NOPE" to, but with better written rules they wouldn't have to. It's inelegant, and I hope they do indeed correct it at some point.

The standard wording is "When you reduce a hostile creature..."

Just pop that line in. Its obviously missing. Not a big deal.

[nickl_2000]

I also don't like that Mighty Deed doesn't have the temp HP expire. So it sort of rewards you for finding a decidedly unmighty deed to build up the party's temp HP before they go and perform an actually mighty deed.

Yes, it's something the DM can just say "NOPE" to, but with better written rules they wouldn't have to. It's inelegant, and I hope they do indeed correct it at some point.


The standard wording is "When you reduce a hostile creature..."

Just pop that line in. Its obviously missing. Not a big deal.

With UA material I feel like there always has to be an agreement between player and DM that they won't abuse it. Killing of a rat before a battle just feels like abuse.

[diplomancer]

The standard wording is "When you reduce a hostile creature..."

Just pop that line in. Its obviously missing. Not a big deal.

If you stick pins in rats, I suppose they get hostile, and will fight you, well, like cornered rats.. just saying :p

It really should have a CR limit to avoid that kind of abuse (though I think 5e's design philosophy is to not worry too much about obvious cheese and let the DM handle it).

Alternatively, it could say that it only works in combat. Since the start of combat is determined by the DM saying "roll for initiative", this gives the option to the DM of saying "ok, you kill the rat you psycho, very heroic of you"

[MountainTiger]

Killing a rat before battle for temp HP does seem lame, but sacrificing something more respectable fits the "Greek Hero" feel that people have picked up.

[diplomancer]

I'm suddenly reminded of this:

https://youtu.be/ENRzf7gPxj4

[LudicSavant]

Mighty Deed just doesn't feel quite right to me. Hitting people who are paralyzed just to make sure you get the buff, focusing on a zombie instead of the necromancer controlling them, and so forth. It just feels gamey, and not so much like it encourages me to aspire to mightier deeds. Not to mention the fact that the buff doesn't expire, so you basically end every combat by refreshing the party's temp HP.

...Not to mention that it'll encourage players to worry about who gets the kill, which feels a bit dissociative here. Moreso than, say, the Fiend Warlock. And they'll worry about it more than the Fiend Warlock does, since the buff/debuff is a bigger deal.

The fluff also has this Kord-like focus on honing the body and such, but all of the mechanics want you to raise Charisma first.

[strangebloke]

Of course you can say that other people can give you advantage. But if I get advantage from different character - then it's not really Heroism that is outstanding, right? Every Paladin benefits GREATLY from advantage from other classes.

Now, of course we can multiclass our Paladin to get: Fearie Fire or Darkness/Devil Sight combo. But again - we need to multiclass.

By itself Herois is not really that impressive combat Paladin. Pure Devotion with GWM or Pure Vengeance with PAM GWM are better combat Paladins.

Also I would like to remind that every Paladin get easy get 19-20 crit range by simple Hexblade dip. Sure, vs one target but you can get it. And I doubt many people would waste Smite on crit vs some simple mob and would rather use precious Smite slot when your crit something that is worth smitting in the first place. As my experienced proved- I almost never burnt Smite on crit if that crit wasn't on enemy caster or "boss". And if I was attacking enemy caster or boss- VoE or Hex Curse would already be on him/her.

Hence why I am not impressed by Heroism CD.

"Hero paladin can't generate advantage for itself."

"Other paladins can increase crit range by multiclassing."

Seriously?

hPaladin can get advantage from multiclassing barbarian. Or from mounted combatant. Or from shield bash. Or from just... regular shoving without the feat. Or from grabbing a familiar via ritual caster or magic intitiate. They've got options. Hexblade/vPally isn't even a good combo because they both require a bonus action and stick to a single target. The odds you get both on one enemy are basically zero.

For pure DPR, advantage > crit range every day of the week. But vPally CD only works on one enemy per combat, doesn't play nice with Hexblade's curse, can't be precast, and precludes getting a benefit from other sources of advantage.

A class that's good at making use of the rest of the party is strong on its own merits. Sure, it isn't strong by itself but by that measure the bard is the worst class in the game, and we all know that isn't true. I'd say that vPally's CD is equivalent in strength, but way more awkward to use.

[LudicSavant]

I really want to like the Oath of Heroism, because the idea of it fits some of the Paladin orders in my worlds, but I hope they make the fluff and crunch incentives match up more for the final version.

[Damon_Tor]

The problem I see with giving Mighty Deed a minimum CR requirement (and yes, I know it was me who just suggested it) is that it presumes there's nothing heroic about fighting a literal army of goblins once you hit tier 2 or whatever, and that runs contrary to the design philosophy of 5e generally, and by appearances, the Vow of Heroism in particular.

I don't know that I have a good solution to that problem.

[diplomancer]

"Hero paladin can't generate advantage for itself."

"Other paladins can increase crit range by multiclassing."

Seriously?

hPaladin can get advantage from multiclassing barbarian. Or from mounted combatant. Or from shield bash. Or from just... regular shoving without the feat. Or from grabbing a familiar via ritual caster or magic intitiate. They've got options. Hexblade/vPally isn't even a good combo because they both require a bonus action and stick to a single target. The odds you get both on one enemy are basically zero.

For pure DPR, advantage > crit range every day of the week. But vPally CD only works on one enemy per combat, doesn't play nice with Hexblade's curse, can't be precast, and precludes getting a benefit from other sources of advantage.

A class that's good at making use of the rest of the party is strong on its own merits. Sure, it isn't strong by itself but by that measure the bard is the worst class in the game, and we all know that isn't true. I'd say that vPally's CD is equivalent in strength, but way more awkward to use.

This. Heck, I even thought of one more way. Get your (unmounted if necessary) steed to give you the help action.


The problem I see with giving Mighty Deed a minimum CR requirement (and yes, I know it was me who just suggested it) is that it presumes there's nothing heroic about fighting a literal army of goblins once you hit tier 2 or whatever, and that runs contrary to the design philosophy of 5e generally, and by appearances, the Vow of Heroism in particular.

I don't know that I have a good solution to that problem.

Just precede it with "after you roll for initiative", which is basically the crunch of fluff "battlefield". It is always the DM who decides when initiative is rolled. And if you are, in the middle of a real fight, using your actions to attack mice instead of your actual enemies, I'm not sure that will be a good trade-off

[Damon_Tor]

Just precede it with "after you roll for initiative", which is basically the crunch of fluff "battlefield". It is always the DM who decides when initiative is rolled. And if you are, in the middle of a real fight, using your actions to attack mice instead of your actual enemies, I'm not sure that will be a good trade-off

It seems like a creative player could make it work. For example, a divine soul sorcadin could jump into the middle of a pack of enemies and cast Word of Radiance, with Distant Spell if he feels like it. Against a cluster, Word of Radiance is already going to be more efficient than the attack action, but as long as the paladin has a rat in his pocket it's now an excellent control or buffing tactic as well.

[Protolisk]

Ways a Hero paladin can get Advantage, without any party help.

1. Shove action exists.

2. Steeds from Find Steed can Help action if you aren't riding them.

3. Guiding Bolt (on their oath spell list) grants advantage on next attack.

4. Various feats could provide advantage.
4a. If we want a more Greek way of being a hero, Shield mastery (as an upgrade to the Shove action) with a Spear sounds like a way to go.
4b. Magic initiate can grant Find Familiar for additional Help actions. Faerie Fire as an alternate for free advantage on a target, maybe even multiple targets due to it being AoE (which pairs nicely with the fact Mighty Deed wants to get kills and their CD can work against any number of targets. This one feels like a great choice).
4c. Grappler feat on those you have grappled.
4d. Mounted Combatant in case basic Find Steed help actions aren't enough.

5. Races can provide advantage in a pinch. Kobolds near allies is a stretch since I said this should be without party help explicitly.

This is disregarding multiclassing, this can all be done as a straight Heroism paladin. All can be done within 4 levels.

Ways a Vengeance paladin can get a 19-20 crit range
Multiclass as Hexblade or Champion. There's basically no other way round this. It will slow their paladin progression, but multiclassing is cool and can provide other benefits. But to even be a Vengeance paladin and get the expanded crit range needs at least 4 levels total for Hexblade, or 6 levels total for Champion.

If we add an actual party, the Heroism paladin gets uncountable ways to gain advantage. The Vengeance paladin's choices remain the same.

I dunno, I think 19-20 as a channel divinity isn't that weak even because of this, on top of the fact it isn't attached to single target.

Edit for corretion: Find Steed is a Level 2 spell, so that would be 5 levels. If you DON'T control it, though, you can still ride it and it won't be limited by its choice of actions.

[strangebloke]

The problem I see with giving Mighty Deed a minimum CR requirement (and yes, I know it was me who just suggested it) is that it presumes there's nothing heroic about fighting a literal army of goblins once you hit tier 2 or whatever, and that runs contrary to the design philosophy of 5e generally, and by appearances, the Vow of Heroism in particular.

I don't know that I have a good solution to that problem.


Just precede it with "after you roll for initiative", which is basically the crunch of fluff "battlefield". It is always the DM who decides when initiative is rolled. And if you are, in the middle of a real fight, using your actions to attack mice instead of your actual enemies, I'm not sure that will be a good trade-off

@Jaapleton had it earlier. Just specify "hostile" creatures. Presumably as soon as you attack the rats they'll run away and not be hostile. Fits with the theming too. There's no glory in fighting someone who can't fight back.

The harder issue with mighty deed is how many rolls it requires. As a DM I really don't like the idea of rolling 5+ saving throws every single time the hPally takes a turn. Slows things down.

[diplomancer]

It seems like a creative player could make it work. For example, a divine soul sorcadin could jump into the middle of a pack of enemies and cast Word of Radiance, with Distant Spell if he feels like it. Against a cluster, Word of Radiance is already going to be more efficient than the attack action, but as long as the paladin has a rat in his pocket it's now an excellent control or buffing tactic as well.

Can you see a rat inside your pocket in the middle of a battle when you are surrounded by enemies? ;)

He who lives by the cheese shall die by the cheese.

[Bloodcloud]

Re-reading the discussion, I think the heroism crit rate is weak, UNLESS you build around it (with some help of your friends).

Hexblade 3 Paladin Heroisn 17, 2 ASI in cha, elven accuracy, Greatweapon master.

Triple dice rolling with crit range 19-20, with each crit garanteeing an extra attack and an effect (THP or Fear)? That's pretty awesome. But you do need help on that advantage.

[LudicSavant]

Re-reading the discussion, I think the heroism crit rate is weak, UNLESS you build around it (with some help of your friends).

Hexblade 3 Paladin Heroisn 17, 2 ASI in cha, elven accuracy, Greatweapon master.

Triple dice rolling with crit range 19-20, with each crit garanteeing an extra attack and an effect (THP or Fear)? That's pretty awesome. But you do need help on that advantage.

Could speed it up with Half-Elf so that you only need 1 Cha bump. Start with 17, +1 from Elven Accuracy. Could be interesting to see how it fares.

[stoutstien]

All and all I would call them better than the last 2 batches of UA that have been released...in a surprisingly quick succession. I haven't even really had time to test the monk in any true game capacity.

[Damon_Tor]

Can you see a rat inside your pocket in the middle of a battle when you are surrounded by enemies? ;)

Keep them in little bags made of cheesecloth and staple them to the inside of your shield. Bonus points for the irony of the name "cheesecloth".

[Damon_Tor]

2. Steeds from Find Steed can Help action if you aren't riding them.

It can Help even if you are riding them, though I know some DMs have formed opinions about this. They're intelligent creatures (at least INT 6, so the level of dolphins and apes and other highly intelligent animals) with a telepathic bond and you explicitly "fight as a seamless unit". And I know Crawford's tweets aren't worth what they used to be, but he agrees (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/970111071955464198).

And many of the mount options can knock guys prone with their attacks anyway. These sort of tactics makes the exact order of initiative highly relevant, because you'll need the mount's turn before the paladin's but without the intended target getting a turn in between, but then again you can always have the mount use "help" during the encounters where the particular of the initiative order don't favor you, and use the trample option when they do.

[Corran]

I like the channel divinities.

a) With legendary strike you are the smitiest paladin that ever smite (and from what I understand, most of the fluff is around that, cause heroes embracing their destiny is all about their big moments, and crit smite is a good representation of that). Most of the other features synergize with this approach.

b) With peerless athlete, you could make a great grappler (or shield master, if you are not using the crappy version). I'd like some more synergy here from the other features. Lots of things synergize with legendary strike, but almost nothing else from the oath helps with this approach. I'd like to see enlarge/reduce on the spell list. It's more thematic anyway (hone the body tenet) than most of the spells there, and it would give some more validation to this CD.


I don't like mighty deed (lvl 7 feature) too much. I think it's a bit weak. I kind of see it as a carrot for smiting more, which is fine, as boosting smites seems intentional for this oath. Still, I think this feature needs a little boosting to bring it on par with everything else. Though, now you are a bit better against hordes, which is a paladin weakness. Still, a bit weak for my liking. What I absolutely hate is the possibility of frightening enemies. There is another oath for that, just do something else. Don't step on toes. I also don't like how the teamwork potential of this feature plays with the being a hero aspect of this oath. Thematically, I would value a lot more something more 'selfish' instead of what we get at level 7. Maybe a flat damage boost like the ones the oathbreaker give. Maybe a movement boost. I don't know. But something passive that only affects the paladin would fit the whole theme better imo.


I love glorious defense (lvl 15 feature). It's weak (especially compared to other oath features of this level), but I love it. More uses of reactions and bonus action, I want features with that action economy on the paladin. Side note, but I also like how the features don't forget to utilize or to depend on charisma.


I am not sure about living myth (lvl 20 feature). Can't decide if it's good or bad.


Unless I am missing something, I can't get my head around the spell list. Did they just pick spells randomly? Anyway, expeditious retreat is weirdly (due to its name), the most thematic in term of mechanics. Leading a charge (thanks to superior speed) seems very spot on. Or making that great run to come to the rescue or help of an ally in danger. You can share it with your mount too. But otherwise, I can't get my head around the spell list. Well, I understand why they included haste, as the other puts some emphasis on getting more attacks with which to smite), but I think the spells are lacking thematically. I'd really like to see enlarge in it.

[strangebloke]

Re-reading the discussion, I think the heroism crit rate is weak, UNLESS you build around it (with some help of your friends).

Hexblade 3 Paladin Heroisn 17, 2 ASI in cha, elven accuracy, Greatweapon master.

Triple dice rolling with crit range 19-20, with each crit garanteeing an extra attack and an effect (THP or Fear)? That's pretty awesome. But you do need help on that advantage.

They're kind of natively built to exploit crits though. Mighty Deed and Smite are awesome tools. Half the reason the vPally CD is good is because it boosts crit rates. (the other half is of course GWM) And hPally crits are even better. I don't really think that having an ally able to grant advantage really requires build resources since, TBH, pretty much every character has ways to grant other characters advantage.

Total sidenote, but a Samurai/hPally would have insane burst. Walk in, fire off your CD, Fighting Spirit, and action surge, make 5 attacks (with haste) and triple advantage and smites to power up the crits. The best part there is, you can split that between any number of characters, and the only pre-casting you need is Haste. Oh, and every part but the smite works at range.

Missed that, did you? Mighty Deed and Legendary strike work on all ranged attacks. Granted that only the tHP effect is really useful.

To be honest, I'm feeling this as being a really good dexadin sublcass.

[AdAstra]

I don't know whether to feel frustrated or indirectly proud that other people are restating a lot of my points and people are agreeing. I think I'll stick with proud. Can;t say I haven't done the same.


...

Total sidenote, but a Samurai/hPally would have insane burst. Walk in, fire off your CD, Fighting Spirit, and action surge, make 5 attacks (with haste) and triple advantage and smites to power up the crits. The best part there is, you can split that between any number of characters, and the only pre-casting you need is Haste. Oh, and every part but the smite works at range.

Missed that, did you? Mighty Deed and Legendary strike work on all ranged attacks. Granted that only the tHP effect is really useful.

To be honest, I'm feeling this as being a really good dexadin sublcass.

Could probably add some Assassin levels as well. Get advantage (or auto-crits) first turn, pop your CD, Action Surge, attack a bunch, then use Fighting Spirit on subsequent rounds. If you trust your odds to hit, you can even save your sneak attack until the last or second-to-last attack, holding out for a crit. That compensates for you not being able to use your CD and FS on the same turn, and gives you a couple extra damage dice to play around with. If you pull off surprise, you've got four potential crit-smites to work with, and you get some THP or fear on the enemies that aren't surprised/went before you in combat.

[Wildarm]

Total sidenote, but a Samurai/hPally would have insane burst. Walk in, fire off your CD, Fighting Spirit, and action surge, make 5 attacks (with haste) and triple advantage and smites to power up the crits. The best part there is, you can split that between any number of characters, and the only pre-casting you need is Haste. Oh, and every part but the smite works at range.
.

Yes, legendary holy bowman would be pretty decent and fit the Samurai and Hero Paladin theme. CD and FS overlap for your bonus action though so it would take a full buff round to setup.

Round 1 - Cast Haste, BA:CD, Haste attack
Round 2 - BA:FS, Attack x2, Action Surge Attack x2, Haste Attack

Triple Advantage /w expanded crit range and Sharpshooter would give you some pretty mean damage even without the ability to smite at range.

[Misterwhisper]

Wait wait wait wait.

Did we...

Are we in agreement this UA is fairly acceptable?

Find out what Cleric used Divine Intervention, because this is a miracle!

Yeah, I have no problems really with either one. I just don’t find the bard one all that interesting is all.

[Themrys]

I really like the mechanics of both!


Flavorwise, I find that both are iffy. Only because of people on the internet, though. Bard one is all about logic, speeches, oratory, and stuff like that. Played poorly, I worry that it's "Neckbeard, the subclass". Played well, it seems like an awesome diplomat class, and a way to actually have mechanical enforcement of a "peacemaker" character. They get Calm Emotions for free cha times per rest! And more that I won't babble about just now!

The paladin is about embracing the heroic destiny the gods have given you. You train your body, inspire others, and jump at the chance to challenge yourself. Played poorly I worry it's "Meathead jock the class" or "Toxic Masculinity paladin". Played well, I think it could be the ultimate heroic type, who is just super excited to have the chance to go on adventures and make the world a better place.

Thanks for the laugh!

The irony is that, with the Greek Myth feel people are picking up from those classes ... I now wonder ... was Hercules a meathead jock? Was Odysseus a neckbeard? (I suppose he at least HAD a neckbeard after all those years of getting lost ...)


Killing a rat before battle for temp HP does seem lame, but sacrificing something more respectable fits the "Greek Hero" feel that people have picked up.

Cattle is traditional.

Though I wonder if sacrificing a young woman (as has occasionally happened in Greek mythology) would really fit with the feel you want for D&D paladins ...

Greek myth heroes: Not all that heroic from a modern point of view.

[rbstr]

On the champion/paladin MC: If all you got for 3 levels of Champion was the extended crit range it would be garbage.

I do like the Sam/Paly MC well enough though.

[Luccan]

So, the Paladin of Heroism is making me think of a shonen protagonist for some reason. Your great strength makes you destined to be Paladin Prime Minister

The Bard's undeniable logic is clearly so your fans can prove you would totally beat Superman and Goku in a fight

[Slayn82]

Wow, I need my DM to let me change from Glamour to Eloquence.

I worked hard to get the same abilities the Eloquence gives for my Glamour bard.



He agreed, not to write is as Homebrew in D&D Beyond :)

(Since everyone else is only talking about Paladin, let's talk Bard of Eloquence.)

I know right? It's a very specific niche of playing, but so satisfying to pull off.

The good thing of going Eloquence over, let's say, Lore, is the extra casts of Calm Emotions. It's almost like having multiclassed secretly as warlock.

And being able to talk to a few creatures, whatever their intelligence and language, with advantage on charisma checks. But it isn't a Charm Effect! So you have advantage even against the enemies under Calm Emotions!

And you can ask favors to rats, pidgeons, cats, dogs, tell bears you have food for them if they allow safe passage, convince elementals and demons to tell you about their master so you break their concentration (and they rebel), talk to undead. Tons of utility there.

Sure, imposing disadvantage on next save if the enemy fails int save seems bad, but then you follow up immediately with something nasty like Bestow Curse or Banishment.

[Arkhios]

Though I wonder if sacrificing a young woman (as has occasionally happened in Greek mythology) would really fit with the feel you want for D&D paladins ...

Greek myth heroes: Not all that heroic from a modern point of view.

Truth be told, I don't remember my greek mythology very well anymore, but how many greek myth heroes sacrificed young women? If I recall, mostly villains or other non-heroic commoners would do that.

[georgie_leech]

Truth be told, I don't remember my greek mythology very well anymore, but how many greek myth heroes sacrificed young women? If I recall, mostly villains or other non-heroic commoners would do that.

Iphigenia is gonna be a little perturbed to hear that.

[Arkhios]

Iphigenia is gonna be a little perturbed to hear that.

So, what, one (1) young woman having been sacrificed by a hero in greek myths, when the myths include dozens of other heroes who didn't commit the act, is still enough to denigrate all greek heroes?

In other words, does one bad apple really spoil the bunch? :smallwink:



Besides, I literally said "mostly" villains and non-heroic commoners. Obviously that doesn't include everyone, especially in this case Agamemnon.

But fair enough, Agamemnon was a hero who did sacrifice a young woman in order to please a goddess (whom he had offended earlier). Then again, Artemis's wrath was whimsical at best (seriously, Agamemnon accidentally killed a deer that was sacred to Artemis), and honestly, I wouldn't blame Agamemnon who clearly had no choice in the matter. Clearly, the sad story is to impose a moral dilemma. I'm not sure if was confirmed in Iliad, but Artemis's disfavor during the Trojan War could've affected Agamemnon's success in the Trojan War.

[Nhorianscum]

So, what, one (1) young woman having been sacrificed by a hero in greek myths, when the myths include dozens of other heroes who didn't commit the act, is still enough to denigrate all greek heroes?

In other words, does one bad apple really spoil the bunch? :smallwink:



Besides, I literally said "mostly" villains and non-heroic commoners. Obviously that doesn't include everyone, especially in this case Agamemnon.

But fair enough, Agamemnon was a hero who did sacrifice a young woman in order to please a goddess (whom he had offended earlier). Then again, Artemis's wrath was whimsical at best (seriously, Agamemnon accidentally killed a deer that was sacred to Artemis), and honestly, I wouldn't blame Agamemnon who clearly had no choice in the matter. Clearly, the sad story is to impose a moral dilemma. I'm not sure if was confirmed in Iliad, but Artemis's disfavor during the Trojan War could've affected Agamemnon's success in the Trojan War.

*screams in Alcestis*

(Admitedly this one is a bit more indirect)

[georgie_leech]

So, what, one (1) young woman having been sacrificed by a hero in greek myths, when the myths include dozens of other heroes who didn't commit the act, is still enough to denigrate all greek heroes?

In other words, does one bad apple really spoil the bunch? :smallwink:



Besides, I literally said "mostly" villains and non-heroic commoners. Obviously that doesn't include everyone, especially in this case Agamemnon.

But fair enough, Agamemnon was a hero who did sacrifice a young woman in order to please a goddess (whom he had offended earlier). Then again, Artemis's wrath was whimsical at best (seriously, Agamemnon accidentally killed a deer that was sacred to Artemis), and honestly, I wouldn't blame Agamemnon who clearly had no choice in the matter. Clearly, the sad story is to impose a moral dilemma

Well, Odysseus was sure okay with it too. And, for that matter, Achilles, after she consented. And, you know, every other Greek Hero involved in the war at that time, by extension.

It's certainly not casual slaughter for minor benefits, so I'm mostly quibbling anyway :smalltongue:

_______________________

Also, the self-important hero archetype is hardly unique to Greek Myth. Like, I wouldn't be shocked if you told me Gaston had this Oath. Actions over Words? He''s definitely one for just barging through objections instead of persuading people. Challenges are but Tests? Refusing him only makes him more determined. Hone the Body? Say what you will, the guy has some nice guns. And you better believe he embraced his destiny (as he sees it) of sharing his greatness with everyone he can :smallwink:

[Citadel97501]

Anyone else look at the Heroism Paladin and hear "I Need A Hero"? Cast Expeditious Retreat, CD for Peerless Athlete, Mighty Deed as you mulch through enemies:

"He's got to be strong, and he's got to be fast, and he's got to be fresh from the fight."

I love this :) but going back to the Oath of Heroism. I think that this is a very good sub-class but would heavily favor some way to get advantage as doubling to tripling your chances at a critical hit is far to useful for triggering Mighty Deed. I have been looking forward to trying a crit-fisher half elf with a great sword for some time :)

[Spiritchaser]

Ok, Paladin (Heroism) X, Warlock 3 (any but conceptually feylock or celestial are likely best, functionality take hexblade)

Drow or half elf work best, but most things work

Darkness and devil’s sight for advantage, Elven accuracy

Spam eldritch blast

71.7% chance of proccing mighty deed per round, not even counting kills, which you should get.

Want more?

Heroism 8, warlock 3, sorcerer x. Or warlock 2 sorcerer x for pure late game and Use improved invisibility

92.0% chance of proccing mighty deed before kills, and you’ll bloody well be getting those.

Less damage than the Heroism sorcadin crit fishing smite knight but great control

Or a metric tonne of thp

[Citadel97501]

Ok, Paladin (Heroism) X, Warlock 3 (any but conceptually feylock or celestial are likely best, functionality take hexblade)

Drow or half elf work best, but most things work

Darkness and devil’s sight for advantage, Elven accuracy

Spam eldritch blast

71.7% chance of proccing mighty deed per round, not even counting kills, which you should get.

Want more?

Heroism 8, warlock 3, sorcerer x. Or warlock 2 sorcerer x for pure late game and Use improved invisibility

92.0% chance of proccing mighty deed before kills, and you’ll bloody well be getting those.

Less damage than the Heroism sorcadin crit fishing smite knight but great control

Or a metric tonne of thp

Possibly both control & the THP if you use Repelling Blast (Sea Origin Sorcerer makes this even more ridiculous).

[strangebloke]

I don't know whether to feel frustrated or indirectly proud that other people are restating a lot of my points and people are agreeing. I think I'll stick with proud. Can;t say I haven't done the same.



Could probably add some Assassin levels as well. Get advantage (or auto-crits) first turn, pop your CD, Action Surge, attack a bunch, then use Fighting Spirit on subsequent rounds. If you trust your odds to hit, you can even save your sneak attack until the last or second-to-last attack, holding out for a crit. That compensates for you not being able to use your CD and FS on the same turn, and gives you a couple extra damage dice to play around with. If you pull off surprise, you've got four potential crit-smites to work with, and you get some THP or fear on the enemies that aren't surprised/went before you in combat.

Meh, I'm of the opinion that 3 levels of rogue for the assassin feature is kind of a waste generally. The surprise crits don't come up all that often and typically if you can surprise an enemy they're dead anyway.

[sambojin]

It's interesting that an Eloquence Bard's Universal Speech doesn't let you understand the thing you're using it on, they can only understand you. This limits its use quite a bit on the information gathering side of things. I guess asking for specific charades as answer-forms might work, but you're kind of stuffed if whatever you're charisma'ing them for requires a proper answer.

It reminds me of Firbolg's Speech of Beast and Leaf. You can tell animals what to do, but they can't reply. At least you can turn USpeech off though, Firbolg's can't ever turn off SoBaL.

[rbstr]

Ok, Paladin (Heroism) X, Warlock 3 (any but conceptually feylock or celestial are likely best, functionality take hexblade)

Drow or half elf work best, but most things work

Darkness and devil’s sight for advantage, Elven accuracy

Spam eldritch blast

71.7% chance of proccing mighty deed per round, not even counting kills, which you should get.

Want more?

Heroism 8, warlock 3, sorcerer x. Or warlock 2 sorcerer x for pure late game and Use improved invisibility

92.0% chance of proccing mighty deed before kills, and you’ll bloody well be getting those.

Less damage than the Heroism sorcadin crit fishing smite knight but great control

Or a metric tonne of thp

Is it that great? You're level 9 before you can possibly EB+Darkness+Sight+Deed, and you lack cha mod to damage on your two bolts. You can't smite on EB crits, so you're just rolling 2d10 on any of them. Only capable of level two spells. You have to go dex to use Elven accuracy in melee so you're at increased MAD. All of the control is still based on a Wis save but you're behind on ASIs.
Like, it's interesting in some ways but isn't some kind of "wowzers that's nuts" build.

[Rukelnikov]

Is it that great? You're level 9 before you can possibly EB+Darkness+Sight+Deed, and you lack cha mod to damage on your two bolts. You can't smite on EB crits, so you're just rolling 2d10 on any of them. Only capable of level two spells. You have to go dex to use Elven accuracy in melee so you're at increased MAD. All of the control is still based on a Wis save but you're behind on ASIs.
Like, it's interesting in some ways but isn't some kind of "wowzers that's nuts" build.

He can have Ago Blast, if he already has Devil's Sight, then his second Invocation can be Ago Blast (which is a pretty popular combination).

Also, why would he need to go Dex? Its a Hexblade Paladin, everything is Cha based.

[Wildarm]

Ok, Paladin (Heroism) X, Warlock 3 (any but conceptually feylock or celestial are likely best, functionality take hexblade)

Drow or half elf work best, but most things work

Darkness and devil’s sight for advantage, Elven accuracy

Spam eldritch blast

71.7% chance of proccing mighty deed per round, not even counting kills, which you should get.


OK I guess but nothing crazy strong. Temp HP each round is nice but still only those within 30' of you. Spamming the fear effect seems more effective to me. You can lock down multiple enemies with that approach. Occasionally top up the THP of yourself, your mount and other front liners.

A Elven Dex Paladin using a Double Bladed Scimitar might work well. Ride in with your steed and have them make a shove attack to knock a foe prone and then unload on them. At level 7 that's 3 attacks, with tri-vantage and expanded crit range. Should be able to trigger fear every round between crits and kills. Improved invisibility or prone effects from an ally would be another good tactic.

Basically saying there are less costly ways to gain advantage than spending 3 levels on warlock and a round in combat casting darkness.

[Spiritchaser]

He can have Ago Blast, if he already has Devil's Sight, then his second Invocation can be Ago Blast (which is a pretty popular combination).

Also, why would he need to go Dex? Its a Hexblade Paladin, everything is Cha based.

You’d go Dex so that you could go celestial or feylock, which meshes well with Heroism.

But otherwise, no, you’d probably take str15 and a level or three of hexblade at level 2

[Rukelnikov]

You’d go Dex so that you could go celestial or feylock, which meshes well with Heroism.

But otherwise, no, you’d probably take str15 and a level or three of hexblade at level 2

Tbh, i don't think either of those meshes well with this Oath of Heroism fluffwise.

[Spiritchaser]

Basically saying there are less costly ways to gain advantage than spending 3 levels on warlock and a round in combat casting darkness.

No doubt, and if your method is shadow blade, you’ll be doing boat loads of damage

You will not be making 4 attacks a round, or 8 if you take sorcerer for quicken. 8 attacks with EA is 24 rolls.

And yes I agree I’d Expect to use fear most of the time.

[Spiritchaser]

Tbh, i don't think either of those meshes well with this Oath of Heroism fluffwise.

Obviously you are most entitled to feel that way

[Wildarm]

No doubt, and if your method is shadow blade, you’ll be doing boat loads of damage

You will not be making 4 attacks a round, or 8 if you take sorcerer for quicken. 8 attacks with EA is 24 rolls.

And yes I agree I’d Expect to use fear most of the time.

Quicken would make the EB approach very strong. Doesn't come online till level 13 unfortunately. Even waiting till level 7 for a key build feature is tough.

I like the idea of a Kobold Paladin of Heroism. Unfortunately you can't take Elven Accuracy with that so crit fishing isn't nearly as productive but you get easy access to advantage.

How about this build though:

Half-Elf
Pally 8/Sorc 3
Elven Accuracy, and Magic Initiate(Warlock)
Would get you the Quickened EB spam without the need for 3 warlock levels. Just need to find a way to get advantage on the rolls.

[Dork_Forge]

Quicken would make the EB approach very strong. Doesn't come online till level 13 unfortunately. Even waiting till level 7 for a key build feature is tough.

I like the idea of a Kobold Paladin of Heroism. Unfortunately you can't take Elven Accuracy with that so crit fishing isn't nearly as productive but you get easy access to advantage.

How about this build though:

Half-Elf
Pally 8/Sorc 3
Elven Accuracy, and Magic Initiate(Warlock)
Would get you the Quickened EB spam without the need for 3 warlock levels. Just need to find a way to get advantage on the rolls.

EB without any accompanying invocations is a very meh as a primary attack and not really worth taking a feat for compared to something like Shadow Blade + quickened BB

[Spiritchaser]

Quicken would make the EB approach very strong. Doesn't come online till level 13 unfortunately. Even waiting till level 7 for a key build feature is tough.

I like the idea of a Kobold Paladin of Heroism. Unfortunately you can't take Elven Accuracy with that so crit fishing isn't nearly as productive but you get easy access to advantage.

How about this build though:

Half-Elf
Pally 8/Sorc 3
Elven Accuracy, and Magic Initiate(Warlock)
Would get you the Quickened EB spam without the need for 3 warlock levels. Just need to find a way to get advantage on the rolls.

I wouldn’t do this... I’d want those invocations...

However you could make it work with shadow sorc for darkness

[BradyMTG]

So strangely enough, the character I just started playing is a fledgling Vigilante trying to find her way to decide what kind of hero she wants to be if she wants to be one at all. As a Paladin/Warlock multiclass, this new Order actually seems perfect for the way she's developing as a character. Happens to be an Elf as well so crit-fishing might be the way she ends up mechanically. Pretty sweet. I do think the Oath on the whole isn't very flashy on it's own but paired with the right RP and multiclass and IMO I think I really like it.

[Wildarm]

I wouldn’t do this... I’d want those invocations...

However you could make it work with shadow sorc for darkness

I'm trying to find a decent way to build it without the Sorc/Warlock levels.

Since this is UA, perhaps the Mystic might be something to use:

Pally7/Soulblade1
EA for feat - Defense FS

Single level gives you Mastery of Darkness and Light which gives you 4x per day 10' darkness you can see through and two 1d8 finesse weapons that do psychic damage.

Self contained Trivantage with expanded crit range and 3 attacks at level 8

After that:

2 more levels of Pally - Snags Haste and Maxes Dex
3 Levels of Samurai - Bonus action advantage, Dual Wielding FS, Action surge

Main issue with going Soulblade is you have to invest in Intelligence in order to MC(not specified in UA but assumed). This makes you a very very MAD build - 13 Str, 13 Int, 13 Cha, max Dex, some Con since you're melee.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm trying to find a decent way to build it without the Sorc/Warlock levels.

Since this is UA, perhaps the Mystic might be something to use:

Pally7/Soulblade1
EA for feat - Defense FS

Single level gives you Mastery of Darkness and Light which gives you 4x per day 10' darkness you can see through and two 1d8 finesse weapons that do psychic damage.

Self contained Trivantage with expanded crit range and 3 attacks at level 8

After that:

2 more levels of Pally - Snags Haste and Maxes Dex
3 Levels of Samurai - Bonus action advantage, Dual Wielding FS, Action surge

Main issue with going Soulblade is you have to invest in Intelligence in order to MC(not specified in UA but assumed). This makes you a very very MAD build - 13 Str, 13 Int, 13 Cha, max Dex, some Con since you're melee.

Is what you're looking to achieve here just getting advantage on demand? There's better ways to do that without effectively blinding the rest of the party, like familiars, flanking if in use, guiding bolt etc.

[Damon_Tor]

Is what you're looking to achieve here just getting advantage on demand? There's better ways to do that without effectively blinding the rest of the party, like familiars, flanking if in use, guiding bolt etc.

Or a Steed/Greater Steed like a Warhorse that can knock guys prone on attacks. Even better when you consider the fact that you can cast Haste on both yourself and your mount, so the mount is getting two attacks for the price of one. Consider how much damage a Rhinoceros gets when you give him an extra attack. Pretty sick combo.

[Spiritchaser]

Is what you're looking to achieve here just getting advantage on demand? There's better ways to do that without effectively blinding the rest of the party, like familiars, flanking if in use, guiding bolt etc.

I believe the goal is to maximize the number of critical hits by obtaining the maximum number of rolls per attack on a large number of attacks. In an extreme case on a build expressly designed to do so, this could very nearly guarantee that mighty deed activates for every round of combat after setup, which is the whole point.

In a more modest approach, the same idea can be applied to a wide range of builds to achieve a fear or THP every second or third round, which is still one heck of a lot of functionality.

Sadly Damon_Tor’s Rhinos need not apply... unless, I suppose, it’s a really really strange campaign...

[Damon_Tor]

Sadly Damon_Tor’s Rhinos need not apply... unless, I suppose, it’s a really really strange campaign...

Why? It's not like you have to track it down and capture it, you summon the thing, it's literally a celestial being that's taking the form of a rhinoceros. If it bothers your DM that much that you're riding a rhinoceros in a Medieval Europe flavored game you could just call it a really freaking big angelic destrier, nothing about what the rhinoceros does is substantially different from a leveled up warhorse.

[Protolisk]

Why? It's not like you have to track it down and capture it, you summon the thing, it's literally a celestial being that's taking the form of a rhinoceros. If it bothers your DM that much that you're riding a rhinoceros in a Medieval Europe flavored game you could just call it a really freaking big angelic destrier, nothing about what the rhinoceros does is substantially different from a leveled up warhorse.

Heck, if it's a celestial rhino, what stops you from flavoring it as a unicorn? Isn't that what people back in medieval times thought they were, anyway? Its just a really buff, naturally armored unicorn. You are a hero, riding a buff unicorn just feels like another heroic action. Also, yeah its summoned, no issue with finding one, that's just the shape it takes.

[Spiritchaser]

Why? It's not like you have to track it down and capture it, you summon the thing, it's literally a celestial being that's taking the form of a rhinoceros. If it bothers your DM that much that you're riding a rhinoceros in a Medieval Europe flavored game you could just call it a really freaking big angelic destrier, nothing about what the rhinoceros does is substantially different from a leveled up warhorse.

No problem with any of that, but it is not eligible to proc mighty deed, which I believe to be the focus here


Again: unless this is a REALLY odd campaign

Rhinoceros Paladin!

[diplomancer]

No problem with any of that, but it is not eligible to proc mighty deed, which I believe to be the focus here


Again: unless this is a REALLY odd campaign

Rhinoceros Paladin!

It's one of the explicitly stated Find Greater Steed options, so there really is nothing weird about it. And the Rhino can shove, which gives you Advantage, which increases your odds of proccing mighty deed.

[Spiritchaser]

It's one of the explicitly stated Find Greater Steed options, so there really is nothing weird about it. And the Rhino can shove, which gives you Advantage, which increases your odds of proccing mighty deed.

That isn’t what I am saying.

I am saying that the rhino cannot proc mighty deed

Again

Notwithstanding a really strange campaign

[diplomancer]

That isn’t what I am saying.

I am saying that the rhino cannot proc mighty deed

Again

Notwithstanding a really strange campaign

No one claimed, at any point, that a Rhino can proc mighty deed. It has been pointed out that they can shove your enemies for you (which helps YOU, not the rhino, to get the crit and, thus, proc mighty deed)

And I still don't know what you find "really strange" about choosing one of the stated forms of Find Greater Steed.

[Damon_Tor]

No problem with any of that, but it is not eligible to proc mighty deed, which I believe to be the focus here

That's true, but neither can you get a Mighty Deed from the shove from Shield Mastery, or most of the other high-cost methods of gaining advantage being thrown around here.

The point is, the Paladin already has on his spell list a non-concentration way to get advantage right there on its spell list, no feats, no multiclassing required.

[Spiritchaser]

No one claimed, at any point, that a Rhino can proc mighty deed. It has been pointed out that they can shove your enemies for you (which helps YOU, not the rhino, to get the crit and, thus, proc mighty deed)

And I still don't know what you find "really strange" about choosing one of the stated forms of Find Greater Steed.

Er... I find nothing strange about it. I was simply stating they the focus appeared to be maximum procs of mighty deed in the general case

I implied that the rhino couldn’t proc mighty deed

I’ve opined that a campaign involving heroic rhino-dins WOULD be really strange.

[CornfedCommando]

Does no one else think that some of the eloquence mechanics are like, substantially more fiddly than 5e usually is? As a bonus action you get to force a save to give them disadvantage on the save? Free uses of bardic inspiration but you have a separate resource pool to use it? Odd.

Yeah, I thought the same thing; fiddly. I’m inclined to remove the Int saving throw from Undeniable Logic if only to make it cleaner. Bardic Inspiration is a finite resource and the damage is minimal. So I’m alright with allowing auto-disadvantage. That way the mechanics for both choices mirror one another perfectly. Much easier to keep sorted out.

I know someone made mention that this use of Undeniable Logic treads somewhat on Vicious Mockery. But again, Bardic Inspiration is a finite resource and Vicious Mockery is a cantrip, so I’m alright with that.

As for Infectious Inspiration... Yeah, I’m not sure how I’d clean that. But I’m instinctively not liking having to double track something.

I thought I had once read somewhere that one of the core ideas behind 5e mechanics was to make things more streamlined. The College of Eloquence would probably need a little bit of refinement in that regard.

That being said, I really do like the College of Eloquence! It’s great thematically for courtiers or heralds and would actually be a pretty good substitution for my College of Swords PC I’m running right now.

[belfastbiker]

I agree with Ludic that Heroism crit range is not really good CD. First of all: you need advantage. Paladin by himself has NO way to get advantage apart from Vengeance. Shield Master is a feat/ASI lost and depends too highly on DM RAI when you can bash.

Use first round to grapple and shove to prone. Or, take grappler feat, use ONE of your 2 attacks only to grapple, and gain advantage that way. Or if you use flanking rules, dismount, have your mount attack from the other side.



2 attacks per turn (even 3 with haste) with just 19-20 crit range will give almost no improvement in your crit chance.

Without elven accuracy, with 3 attacks, you just changed crit chance per round from 26.49% to 46.86%.
With elven accuracy over 3 attacks, crit chance changes from 36.98% to 61.26%. This is a little less than double the chance.
These are NOT small changes. Bring out your smites!



Also I would like to remind that every Paladin get easy get 19-20 crit range by simple Hexblade dip.

I kinda want BOTH options to expand crit range, Given how often we short rest, I should have it pretty much constantly.

[belfastbiker]

And many of the mount options can knock guys prone with their attacks anyway. These sort of tactics makes the exact order of initiative highly relevant, because you'll need the mount's turn before the paladin's but without the intended target getting a turn in between, but then again you can always have the mount use "help" during the encounters where the particular of the initiative order don't favor you, and use the trample option when they do.


From what I recall from a Jeremy Crawford interview, when you dismount, your steed matches your initiative, and you decide if it goes just before or just after you, having shared initiative now.