Could Belkar be descended from Serini?

[PhyrexianShovel]

We've focused on every character's backstory at least a little over the course of OotS, except for Belkar. We don't know anything about his past at all except that he lived in a halfling village. This village could easily be related to Serini, especially because of two reasons:

1. Belkar was absent during the background info, and thus probably only got a brief summary, later on. He may not have connected the name Serini to the gates, especially since he was absent for Girard's message, too.

2. Serini didn't stay at her gate, and instead continued adventuring. Perhaps she settled down and either founded or joined a small halfling town.

If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, please post it. If there is no evidence, I'll put 5 quataloos on it. Normal theory disclaimer applies, of course.

[dmc91356]

As for why there is no backstory on Belkar, my memory is that Rich commented (perhaps in one of the books - likely On the Origin of PC's) that providing an explanation of why Belkar was a psychopathic monster would detract from his usefulness as a character. What's the point of showing a terrible childhood where he was abused if that would just make him sympathetic? Can't find the book right now or I would look it up for you.

[hroþila]

It's not explicitly impossible, but that's the only thing going for this theory at the moment.

[Peelee]

It's not explicitly impossible, but that's the only thing going for this theory at the moment.

I couldn't put it better myself. It's about as likely as Xykon turning out to be Elan's long lost second cousin.

[HorizonWalker]

I couldn't put it better myself. It's about as likely as Xykon turning out to be Elan's long lost second cousin.

No, no, there's more evidence against Elan and Xykon being related. In Start of Darkness, Xykon had black hair when he was young. Elan's blond.

But otherwise yes.

[PhyrexianShovel]

I couldn't put it better myself. It's about as likely as Xykon turning out to be Elan's long lost second cousin.

Well, it's a little more likely then that, mostly because Belkar could actually know the name Serini, but has conveniently been out of the way both times her name was mentioned. I'll admit it's far-fetched, I just like the idea of one of the OotS being related to one of the Scribblers.
@dmc91356: I think he said that in SoD about Xykon, not about Belkar. For Belkar, I believe that he just said his backstory was short to reflect different D&D characters having different length backstories. My copies of both books are on loan to a friend right now, so I can't check either, unfortunately. I'm not really asking for an explanation as to why he's a psycho, though, so this bit of backstory could still exist.

[Peelee]

Well, it's a little more likely then that

I agree, in the sense that you're more likely to win the Powerball if you buy two tickets instead of one.

[CriticalFailure]

Maybe Belkar is actually Redcloak's niece.

[PhyrexianShovel]

I agree, in the sense that you're more likely to win the Powerball if you buy two tickets instead of one.

Alright, alright, I agreed it's far fetched, no need to keep hammering it in :smallannoyed:.

[Sir_Norbert]

The Order of the Scribble's adventures were... I forget the exact number, around sixty-five years ago? Halflings are based on Tolkien's hobbits, so they live longer and age slower than humans; hobbits considered the age of adulthood to be 33. So, not even enough time for Serini to have grandchildren.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm going with a quick flat "no" on this one. Serini could be related to Belkar; she could be an aunt or something, but her being his mother/grandmother is unlikely. Halfling lifespans simply don't quite match up with the time frame we are working with (Belkar is too young to be a son and too old to be a grandson), and we would probably know if someone were to mention his mother by name?

I'm not entirely sure, but it seems highly unlikely that Serini is related to Belkar.


Maybe Belkar is actually Redcloak's niece.

10/10, would theorize again

[Jasdoif]

Belkar was absent during the background info, and thus probably only got a brief summary, later on. He may not have connected the name Serini to the gates, especially since he was absent for Girard's message, too.He was, however, present for the later discussion where "Serini" and "halfling rogue" were mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

So the question is: What difference will it make if Belkar is Serini's descendant, as opposed to if he's not? With no evidence supporting the theory, it'd go a long way towards establishing nominal plausibility if there's some reason it's more sensical/convenient for Belkar to be Serini's descendant than, say, for Hank to be Serini's descendant.


As for why there is no backstory on Belkar, my memory is that Rich commented (perhaps in one of the books - likely On the Origin of PC's) that providing an explanation of why Belkar was a psychopathic monster would detract from his usefulness as a character.Yes, the introduction of On the Origin of PCs. Basically said Belkar would be "ruined" by a backstory, that explaining the motivation behind his antics would make them more sad than funny.

[RatElemental]

Let's go even more bananas. Serini is Belkar's daughter, born after Belkar somehow avoided his prophesied doom and his redemption, raised to be righteous and to value team work. She then was sent back in time by a powerful artifact on her first ever adventure.

[CletusMusashi]

Belkar is a rejuvenated and polymorphed version of Serini. With amnesia. If my understanding of how brain trauma works is correct, the amnesia will eventually be broken by a falling coconut.

[woweedd]

Yes, because, as we all know, every Halfling is related to each other.

[D.One]

Yes, because, as we all know, every Halfling is related to each other.

Does that make Belkar and Hank brothers?

[Fyraltari]

Yes, because, as we all know, every Halfling is related to each other.

There is actually only one halfling. It’s an immortal who uses epic time-travel magic to hop between worlds and escape the XP-death of the universe by going back to the beginning. They use various disguises such as wigs and fake beards to pretend there are multiple different halflings.

Belkar is his angry teenager phase.

[Turin_19]

Of course she is.

We are all brothers and sisters.

[Asmotherion]

I couldn't put it better myself. It's about as likely as Xykon turning out to be Elan's long lost second cousin.

Considering his Father's side of the family... not at all improbable XD

[D.One]

There is actually only one halfling. It’s an immortal who uses epic time-travel magic to hop between worlds and escape the XP-death of the universe by going back to the beginning. They use various disguises such as wigs and fake beards to pretend there are multiple different halflings.

Belkar is his angry teenager phase.

I like this theory. It copes well with "Belkar will be no more". :smallbiggrin:

[MossyMeow]

Speaking of Serini, has anyone else always assumed she’s dead? Halflings, at least in core D&D, don’t live much longer than humans, and Girad died of old age decades ago. Wouldn’t she have died already?

Wait! I know! She’s actually the Dark One...and Redcloak’s niece...and Belkar’s mother. And only she knows V’s gender, the exact species of the MITD, and the best possible use for a doily. It all makes sense!

[Fyraltari]

Speaking of Serini, has anyone else always assumed she’s dead? Halflings, at least in core D&D, don’t live much longer than humans, and Girad died of old age decades ago. Wouldn’t she have died already?

Wait! I know! She’s actually the Dark One...and Redcloak’s niece...and Belkar’s mother. And only she knows V’s gender, the exact species of the MITD, and the best possible use for a doily. It all makes sense!

Some people have proposed that, yes, based mainly on that V gets no response from their attempt at comunicating which may be caused by her being deceased. However Dorukan was fine and a baseline human not even two years "ago" so she can definitely be alive and well. We don't know how long Girard has been dead either.

I don't think she's dead because the Giant will need someone to exposit on the Snarl and the planet within and the last living Scribbler sounds like the best fit for that role.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Best reason for her being dead is that Xykon went for her personal journal, and came back with it. He doesn't leave people alive without a very good reason. Using Miko to scry on the defenses of Azure City, for example.

[hroþila]

Best reason for her being dead is that Xykon went for her personal journal, and came back with it. He doesn't leave people alive without a very good reason. Using Miko to scry on the defenses of Azure City, for example.
But Serini is/was an epic rogue, and if she put herself to it she might have had a fair chance of fleeing despite Xykon's efforts. It is something none of the other Scribblers tried to do.

[Fyraltari]

Best reason for her being dead is that Xykon went for her personal journal, and came back with it. He doesn't leave people alive without a very good reason. Using Miko to scry on the defenses of Azure City, for example.

That's assuming she was with her diary when he got it. The thing was sixty-odd years old already, I doubt she carries it on her person at all times.

[Peelee]

That's assuming she was with her diary when he got it. The thing was sixty-odd years old already, I doubt she carries it on her person at all times.

That assumes Xykon would know about, and then be able to find, a diary explicating the details of the Gates, which was written by (and presumably hidden by) an epic-level Rogue. Which sounds significantly more difficult than the already-difficult-finding that Rogue and plucking the diary off her corpse.

[Mike Havran]

That's assuming she was with her diary when he got it. The thing was sixty-odd years old already, I doubt she carries it on her person at all times.True, but on the other hand she would certainly be careful about where she hid it and she would keep silence about its very existence and what is actually means. At the beginning of his search, Xykon did not know about the diary so the most straightforward explanation would be he somehow learned about it from her.

Edit: (ninja'd by the dragon)

[PirateMonk]

Speaking of Serini, has anyone else always assumed she’s dead? Halflings, at least in core D&D, don’t live much longer than humans, and Girad died of old age decades ago. Wouldn’t she have died already?

3.5 edition halflings live to be 105-200, compared to 72-110 for humans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age). Serini might be dead, but she probably didn't die of old age, unless she was already pretty old when the gates were made (which she showed no sign of, but it can be hard to tell from crayon drawings).

[Fyraltari]

That assumes Xykon would know about, and then be able to find, a diary explicating the details of the Gates, which was written by (and presumably hidden by) an epic-level Rogue. Which sounds significantly more difficult than the already-difficult-finding that Rogue and plucking the diary off her corpse.
That "presumably" is doing a lot of work here. The simple fact that she recorded the coordinates in a diary means that she wasn't careful about that info. She should have burned it once they realized what they were dealing with. If you want to assume that diary was in magically sealed vault with two hundreds locks cast inside a twenty meter cube of steel, that's your prerogative but it may simply have been forgotten in a house she lived in forty years ago that Xykon found while trying to find her current whereabouts.

True, but on the other hand she would certainly be careful about where she hid it and she would keep silence about its very existence and what is actually means. At the beginning of his search, Xykon did not know about the diary so the most straightforward explanation would be he somehow learned about it from her.

If he had been able to extract information from her he would not have had to decode the coordinates, nor would he have needed the diary in the first place.

EDIT:

3.5 edition halflings live to be 105-200, compared to 72-110 for humans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age). Serini might be dead, but she probably didn't die of old age, unless she was already pretty old when the gates were made (which she showed no sign of, but it can be hard to tell from crayon drawings).

She circled hearts around her drawing of the gang's resident bad boy. I'm confortable assuming she was young by halfling standards.

[Peelee]

That "presumably" is doing a lot of work here. The simple fact that she recorded the coordinates in a diary means that she wasn't careful about that info.

That completely depends on how she handled the diary. If it never left her person and she had a plan for the chain of custody (both who would have it and why they would have it as well as how they could potentially use it), then not at all. If she just tossed it in the drawer of the inn she was the day she finished it, then absolutely.

And while that's a spectrum and not a dichotomy, I'm inclined to believe the truth was significantly closer to the former than the latter.

[Fyraltari]

That completely depends on how she handled the diary. If it never left her person and she had a plan for the chain of custody (both who would have it and why they would have it as well as how they could potentially use it), then not at all. If she just tossed it in the drawer of the inn she was the day she finished it, then absolutely.

And while that's a spectrum and not a dichotomy, I'm inclined to believe the truth was significantly closer to the former than the latter.

It's a diary. It's not meant to contain crucial information.

[Peelee]

It's a diary. It's not meant to contain crucial information.

Dr. Henry Jones, Sr. would vehemently disagree with you.

[Fyraltari]

Dr. Henry Jones, Sr. would vehemently disagree with you.

And I would care, because... ?

[Gallowglass]

Alright, alright, I agreed it's far fetched, no need to keep hammering it in :smallannoyed:.

I'm sorry some of the people have been responding to you so aggressively condescendingly. It isn't deserved.

I had the same thought a while ago, that the reason we have had background info on everyone BUT Belkar is because we'd have a last minute reveal that Belkar has a connection to Serini. That kind of hidden "gotchya" is pretty common, so I wouldn't be surprised by it.

But, it would be very out of the blue and disappointing because there hasn't been any build up toward it, at least none that I've seen. So it would be a very "all halflings are related" kind of reveal.

Also, and I don't have the exact quote, but somewhere in the Giant's posts there was a post or an interview where he seemed to suggest that Belkar would never get a background story like the rest of them have because it would detract from his purpose in the strip. Representing the kind of CE murderhobo character where the player puts no thought into backstory, is how I interpreted it.

[Peelee]

And I would care, because... ?

Well, I would hope because a massively popular and successful movie was entirely predicated on the idea that diaries can contain crucial information, so the same idea happening in here would not unprecedented.

[RatElemental]

Speaking of Serini, has anyone else always assumed she’s dead? Halflings, at least in core D&D, don’t live much longer than humans, and Girad died of old age decades ago. Wouldn’t she have died already?

Wait! I know! She’s actually the Dark One...and Redcloak’s niece...and Belkar’s mother. And only she knows V’s gender, the exact species of the MITD, and the best possible use for a doily. It all makes sense!

Only if "lives twice as long as humans" counts as "not much longer than humans." Seriously, a halfling rolling minimum on max age still comes shy just five years of a human rolling maximum.

[Squire Doodad]

Only if "lives twice as long as humans" counts as "not much longer than humans." Seriously, a halfling rolling minimum on max age still comes shy just five years of a human rolling maximum.

I wonder how that scales with immune systems...? Does an elderly Halfling have a somewhat more vulnerable immune system because they have been around for much longer, or are they somewhat more resilient because they are halflings?

Age and general fitness might not quite correlate though.

[PhyrexianShovel]

He was, however, present for the later discussion where "Serini" and "halfling rogue" were mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

OK, yeah, that pretty much disproves it. I hadn't remembered that when it was posted. I also got my copy of On the Origin of PCs back, and I see that quote you and others mentioned. Thanks to you and Gallowglass for taking me seriously.

Now, to get of this thread before it derails, crashes, and burns :smallwink:.

[Fyraltari]

Well, I would hope because a massively popular and successful movie was entirely predicated on the idea that diaries can contain crucial information, so the same idea happening in here would not unprecedented.

Now, that is poor logic, just because a popular movie did something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[Bacon Elemental]

It'd be pretty closely related, Scribble was only like 70 years ago and halflings live a long while

[Peelee]

Now, that is poor logic, just because a popular movie did something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

My logic said it was not unprecedented. There are innumerable things that are commonly accepted to happen in stories that you can logically classify as bad ideas, and yet occur all the time.

Your proposition is "diaries are not meant to contain crucial information." I am simply saying that diaries can and have contained crucial information. You may not like that idea, but that doesn't make it less true.

[hroþila]

I'm a bit confused by this argument. Don't we already know that the diary did contain crucial information? "She wrote it down in a diary, therefore she didn't think it was crucial information" strikes me as circular logic.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm a bit confused by this argument. Don't we already know that the diary did contain crucial information? "She wrote it down in a diary, therefore she didn't think it was crucial information" strikes me as circular logic. There was a time when diaries and letters were some of the most useful sources for historians to dig into ... diaries being dismissed as not useful strikes me as a case of not understanding how wide spread those tools (as well as journals) were as recently as a generation ago, and even moreso as one goes further back in time.

[woweedd]

There was a time when diaries and letters were some of the most useful sources for historians to dig into ... diaries being dismissed as not useful strikes me as a case of not understanding how wide spread those tools (as well as journals) were as recently as a generation ago, and even moreso as one goes further back in time.
In fairness, that's partly because, often, diaries contain the details, minutia of day-to-life in the period that no one else thought was important to write down.

[Vendanna]

In fairness, that's partly because, often, diaries contain the details, minutia of day-to-life in the period that no one else thought was important to write down.

in reality, the "write a diary" is the tool parents use to "peek" what their kids are doing and if something bad is happening to them, since they know where the diary is and can look at it when their kids are at the school. (to find out if there is bullying or who the kid has a crush on) :3

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There is actually only one halfling. It’s an immortal who uses epic time-travel magic to hop between worlds and escape the XP-death of the universe by going back to the beginning. They use various disguises such as wigs and fake beards to pretend there are multiple different halflings.

So it’s the single electron theory, but for Halflings? I like it.

[Fyraltari]

I'm a bit confused by this argument. Don't we already know that the diary did contain crucial information? "She wrote it down in a diary, therefore she didn't think it was crucial information" strikes me as circular logic.
I’m not saying she didn’t think it was important, I’m saying she was careless with it. Peelee proposed that she had an important reason to keep the diary such passing the info later on. I’m saying that it is not what diary are for, they exist for people to write down what happened to them day by day. This isn’t even a travel log, she draw hearts around Girard for crying out loud! It would be supremely bizarre for her to use that particular book if she needed the coordinates written down somehow rather than copying them on a different sheet of paper.

So it’s the single electron theory, but for Halflings? I like it.
The what now?

[Jasdoif]

Dr. Henry Jones, Sr. would vehemently disagree with you.And I would care, because... ?Because he didn't want his diary incinerated.

[woweedd]

I’m not saying she didn’t think it was important, I’m saying she was careless with it. Peelee proposed that she had an important reason to keep the diary such passing the info later on. I’m saying that it is not what diary are for, they exist for people to write down what happened to them day by day. This isn’t even a travel log, she draw hearts around Girard for crying out loud! It would be supremely bizarre for her to use that particular book if she needed the coordinates written down somehow rather than copying them on a different sheet of paper.

The what now?
They had the coordinates in them. That's why Xykon was able to find Girard's Gate the instant he got back from The Astral.

[Fyraltari]

Because he didn't want his diary incinerated.
I don't understand your point?

They had the coordinates in them. That's why Xykon was able to find Girard's Gate the instant he got back from The Astral.

Hence "careless".

[b_jonas]

Yes. In fact, all members of the Order of the Stick are descendants of the six members of the Order of the Scribble. Fate has brought these descendants together to become the guardians of the six gates when the original guardians have failed their mission.

Like you said, Belkar is a descendant of Serini. Belkar has inherited from Serini the love of the forces of nature and distrust to magic. This is why Belkar doesn't cast spells, but makes wide empathy checks, rides a hellhound as soon as he has opportunity, wants a ride dog mightier than the dachshund. He has now enlisted two strong monsters to his aid: Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast. He will enlist more such monsters from Monster's Hollow, and then die content that the monsters can protect Serini's gate so he is no longer needed.

Vaarsuvius is Lirian's descendant. Both of them combine nature with magic, and have a keen eye for good and bad ways to do this. Lirian used magically strengthened treants and a certain other magically strengthened biological weapon that Start of Darkness taks about. Vaarsuvius has so far only researched her messenger birds, but she already started to notice how stupid Owlbears are.

Haley is Girard's descendant. They prefer to work with deception, and trust only their family. The relation is obvious; they both have red hair, and Haley practically admitted that she is not entirely human (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html), because she knows of her dragon heritage. Tarquin knows all this, and more that he doesn't reveal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html). He made inquiries about the Draketooth family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) on occasion of marrying one of them, and he had more reason to keep Ian imprisoned than just Bozzok paying him.

Roy is a descendant of Dorukan. He comes from an old family where each generation rebels against the other by alternately becoming warriors and wizards. Dorukan became an epic wizard only to rebel against his father who distrusted magic and wanted to make a warrior out of him. Roy is on his way to become one of the most powerful fighters of this world.

Elan is also a descendant of Dorukan. That's why Elan wanted to become Roy's brother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html). Elan's warrior father wanted him to participate more actively in fights, but Elan decided to rebel against him. Elan didn't become a wizard as you know, but that doesn't make him less of a rebel against the role that Tarquin wanted to push on him.

Shojo, who isn't a member of the party but has hired them to the mission to guard the gates, is a descendants of Soon. This much is public knowledge: Shojo still says that he's descended from Soon, even if he doesn't feel bound by his oath.

Mr. Scruffy, who is a member of the party now, is also descended from Soon. Mr. Scruffy is the real power behind the throne. Shojo didn't even keep this secret, but because of his gambit that made everyone believe that he's senile, most people don't believe this. We've seen in both the main comic and GDGU that Azure City has a nobility where most people inherit their power from their ancestors. It follows that Mr. Scruffy is also descended from Soon, which is why he has a claim to the Azure City throne. GDGU also shows how nobles sometimes go to undercover missions under pseudonyms so that they can observe ordinary people without being recognized. Mr. Scruffy is currently on such a mission.

Durkon is a descendant of Kraagor.

[Dion]

I couldn't put it better myself. It's about as likely as Xykon turning out to be Elan's long lost second cousin.

Seems legit. They both have nice hair.

[Fyraltari]

Shojo is not related to Soon. This is the only issue I have with this otherwise flawless theory.

[Peelee]

I’m not saying she didn’t think it was important, I’m saying she was careless with it. Peelee proposed that she had an important reason to keep the diary such passing the info later on. I’m saying that it is not what diary are for
What you would use a diary for is not what every person ever would use a diary for.

The what now?

Extrapolate from known information. At a guess, I'd say that theory posits that there exists only a single electron that travels time and space and makes up every single electron that ever existed. Which is greatly amusing to me.

[Jasdoif]

I don't understand your point?Why, the obvious doubling down on "Peelee referenced a movie where a diary with vital information was saved from a scene with a literal book burning, after you suggested Serini should have burned her diary" with a near-quote from the scene in question. Dr. Henry Jones Sr. writing down clues to get past traps to get to the Holy Grail so he won't have to remember them, while important in getting to the Holy Grail that he's been seeking most of his life, isn't especially comparable with encoded coordinates and/or research material in Serini's diary. All I have to do is scream.

[Fyraltari]

What you would use a diary for is not what every person ever would use a diary for.
Fortunately, we know what (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) she used it for: drawing hearts and making innuendos. she clearly didn't expect it to be important.



Extrapolate from known information. At a guess, I'd say that theory posits that there exists only a single electron that travels time and space and makes up every single electron that ever existed. Which is greatly amusing to me.
Was expecting a link.

All I have to do is scream.
"I am a banana and I must scream"?

[Peelee]

Fortunately, we know what (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) she used it for: drawing hearts and making innuendos. she clearly didn't expect it to be important.

She also used it to codify the locations of the gates, so she clearly did expect it to be important.

[KorvinStarmast]

"I am a banana and I must scream"? On the other side of the gates, no one can hear you scream (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61iSvWcoUjL._AC_SL1006_.jpg).

[Fyraltari]

She also used it to codify the locations of the gates, so she clearly did expect it to be important.

Depends on when they found out what the Gates where and how dangerous they were relatives to when they found out where they are. She could have thougt it was just the locations of a monster with a teleportation ability or something.

EDIT: Hell she may even have forgotten she wrote them down in her diary in the first place, as I said upthread that was sixty freaking years ago.

[Jasdoif]

Was expecting a link.Like this? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe)

[Fyraltari]

Yes, thank you.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Depends on when they found out what the Gates where and how dangerous they were relatives to when they found out where they are. She could have thougt it was just the locations of a monster with a teleportation ability or something.

EDIT: Hell she may even have forgotten she wrote them down in her diary in the first place, as I said upthread that was sixty freaking years ago.

They spent years on the quest. I'm pretty sure she knew what was going on, since she felt the need to encrypt the data.

[b_jonas]

Shojo is not related to Soon. This is the only issue I have with this otherwise flawless theory. Are you sure? Because I think Shojo is Soon's grandson, or some other family relation like that.

[HorizonWalker]

They spent years on the quest. I'm pretty sure she knew what was going on, since she felt the need to encrypt the data.

No need for speculation: it's made explicit that they knew what the Rifts were. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[The Pilgrim]

Are you sure? Because I think Shojo is Soon's grandson, or some other family relation like that.

Nope. Shojo was the son of the Lord of Azure city to whom Soon surrended control of the Sapphire Guard before dying.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Soon was presented as a paladin from Azure City on a diplomatic mission to elven lands. But no mention was made about he being related to the ruling family.
http://www.giantitp.com/comic/oots0275.html

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The what now?


Like this? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe)

Here (https://youtu.be/9dqtW9MslFk)’s an excellent video on the subject, if you’re willing to spend 13 minutes to watch it.

[NerdyKris]

Haley is Girard's descendant.


I think you're not being entirely serious with this theory, but regardless, if Haley was Girard's descendant, she and her father would be dead from Familicide.

[Dion]

I think you're not being entirely serious with this theory, but regardless, if Haley was Girard's descendant, she and her father would be dead from Familicide.

But maybe Haley is related to Girard through a time travel paradox.

[Vendanna]

I think you're not being entirely serious with this theory, but regardless, if Haley was Girard's descendant, she and her father would be dead from Familicide.

Not so fast! there is the chance that Ian wasn't lightning struck by the spell due him being inside an antimagic cell in the empire of blood when those events transpired, and since it didn't "hit him" the lightning couldn't pass thru him and pass to haley.

[b_jonas]

I think you're not being entirely serious with this theory, but regardless, if Haley was Girard's descendant, she and her father would be dead from Familicide. I am entirely joking with the proposal, I don't think anyone from the Order of the Stick is descended from anyone in the Order of the Crayon. The familicide indeed poses a problem, but not too much of it I think, as long as Haley is like four generations younger than Girard and nobody knows his connection to the Draketooth family. That's not so hard to understand given how secretive the Draketooth family is.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am not sure how Halfling names and geneology works in OoTS world, but I'll offer this idea that they are not related.

Belkar's last name is Bitterleaf.
Serini's last name is Toormuc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)k.

The only relative that I recall Bellkar referring to is his Aunt Judy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html).
(I vaguely recall a memory of him referring to a grandma, but I can't recall which strip that was in)

[Dion]

Belkar's last name is Bitterleaf.
Serini's last name is Toormuc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)k.

And what is “toor” spelled backwards? That’s right. It’s “root”.

Bitter leaves and mucky roots? I think the connection is obvious. They have the same family tree.

[D.One]

And what is “toor” spelled backwards? That’s right. It’s “root”.

Bitter leaves and mucky roots? I think the connection is obvious. They have the same family tree.

Hank's surname is probably Saltflower.

[Peelee]

And what is “toor” spelled backwards? That’s right. It’s “root”.

Bitter leaves and mucky roots? I think the connection is obvious. They have the same family tree.

The first half was ironclad, but you lost it in the second half. The logical place to go was "and what are roots if not the foundation of a family tree?"

[Dion]

"and what are roots if not the foundation of a family tree?"

I bow to the pun master.

[hroþila]

Even though this is not how The Giant works, I have decided that the first element in Toormuck is Middle English tōr(e) (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED46350), dialectal Modern English tore (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tore#Etymology_1), so it's either "difficult muck" (from what we saw, Serini could definitely be rather difficult) or "fierce muck" (she was totes that too).

[Fyraltari]

No need for speculation: it's made explicit that they knew what the Rifts were. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)
They eventually knew what they were. Their quest lasted for years we don’t know how long it took them to learn the truth. Serini’s diary mentions Dorukan as ‘the new kid’ so she started writing it before or at the very beginning of the Scribblers’ quest.

Nope. Shojo was the son of the Lord of Azure city to whom Soon surrended control of the Sapphire Guard before dying.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Soon was presented as a paladin from Azure City on a diplomatic mission to elven lands. But no mention was made about he being related to the ruling family.
http://www.giantitp.com/comic/oots0275.html

Furthermore GDGU establishes that the ‘jo’ in Shojo and Hinjo is a surname.

[Peelee]

They eventually knew what they were. Their quest lasted for years we don’t know how long it took them to learn the truth. Serini’s diary mentions Dorukan as ‘the new kid’ so she started writing it before or at the very beginning of the Scribblers’ quest.

Regardless, the information regarding the gates was encrypted, so she knew it was sensitive information.

[Squire Doodad]

Regardless, the information regarding the gates was encrypted, so she knew it was sensitive information.

Alternatively, Dorukan could have been the last group member to join and have only done so once like the third rift was found. Though it is a trivial matter either way.

[D.One]

Furthermore GDGU establishes that the ‘jo’ in Shojo and Hinjo is a surname.

omg
OMG
OMG
OMG
OMG:smalleek:

Shojo and Hinjo are related to Banjo!!!!!!

[Squire Doodad]

omg
OMG
OMG
OMG
OMG:smalleek:

Shojo and Hinjo are related to Banjo!!!!!!

Naturally, they are both descended from the great and bizarre Jojo. :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

Even though this is not how The Giant works, I have decided that the first element in Toormuck is Middle English tōr(e) (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED46350), dialectal Modern English tore (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tore#Etymology_1), so it's either "difficult muck" (from what we saw, Serini could definitely be rather difficult) or "fierce muck" (she was totes that too). *tips cap* I like what you did there, and I have an idea that may make zero sense.

Muck and mud are similar things, though not necessarily synonyms.

Some of my friends at work are "mudders" in that about once a month they do these races that are a lot like doing an obstacle course. The day's events always include getting through some massive muddy and mucky pit or pool as a part of the obstacle course. Great fun, when you are younger and in better shape than I am now.

Your "fierce muck" idea, with a slight shift to "fierce mud" => fierce mudder takes me to what adventurers do in a figurative sense. They get down into the grimy and gritty parts of the OoTS world and need to be fierce to battle and triumph over all of those horrible monsters.
Fierce Mudder: yeah, Serini could fit that ....

[Fyraltari]

Regardless, the information regarding the gates was encrypted, so she knew it was sensitive information.

I mean Xykon of all people managed to break it.

But I'm tired of this, can we agree that Xykon having the diary is not evidence enough to conclude Serini is dead?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Conclude? No. Reasonable presumption? Yes.

Best reason for her being alive is someone is needed to fill the Order in on the backstory.

[D.One]

I mean Xykon of all people managed to break it.

But I'm tired of this, can we agree that Xykon having the diary is not evidence enough to conclude Serini is dead?

Of course we can. She's an epic level Rogue with +200 do Hide and Move Silently, and she's been following Xykon since he found her decoy diary :smallwink:

Seriously, I believe that if The Giant wanted to establish Serini as dead, he could have done that with a simple mention from some character. Her dubious status gives him the option to use her more freely if he needs.


Naturally, they are both descended from the great and bizarre Jojo. :smalltongue:

So Giggles was adopted by the family?

[Emanick]

I am not sure how Halfling names and geneology works in OoTS world, but I'll offer this idea that they are not related.

Belkar's last name is Bitterleaf.
Serini's last name is Toormuc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)k.

The only relative that I recall Bellkar referring to is his Aunt Judy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html).
(I vaguely recall a memory of him referring to a grandma, but I can't recall which strip that was in)

Obviously, the Grandma Bitterleaf Belkar’s family dropped off at the nursing home (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html) was none other than Serini (who changed her name when she got married, obviously).

[Peelee]

I mean Xykon of all people managed to break it.
You mean the guy who has constantly shown that he is smarter than people give him credit for when he cares? That Xykon?

But I'm tired of this, can we agree that Xykon having the diary is not evidence enough to conclude Serini is dead?
Sure, in the sense of:

Conclude? No. Reasonable presumption? Yes.

[D.One]

You mean the guy who has constantly shown that he is smarter than people give him credit for when he cares? That Xykon?

That's right on the spot. Xykon is more than capable of cracking any code from the diary.

I just wonder if he knew there was anything important on the diary prior to decoding it, or if he just decided, for the fun, "I'll discover this halfling lady's personal secrets".

[Fyraltari]

Conclude? No. Reasonable presumption? Yes.

Best reason for her being alive is someone is needed to fill the Order in on the backstory.
1) That's a conclusion.
2) How is that not a good reason?

You mean the guy who has constantly shown that he is smarter than people give him credit for when he cares? That Xykon?

Yeah, the Xykon who sucks at maths. He's perceptive and able to sit down and think through things when he cares but he's not gonna turn into a master cryptanalist because he cares. If he could break it then it was a weak code.

[D.One]

What's the (DnD 3.5) skill for breaking codes? Profession (codebreaker)? Knowledge (Cryptoanalysis)*? Craft (Codes)? Decipher Script?


*I know it's Cryptanalysis, but given it's Xykon we are talking about, I did an emphasis with the "o" to differentiate fro the ability to analyze a mausoleum.

[Peelee]

Yeah, the Xykon who sucks at maths. He's perceptive and able to sit down and think through things when he cares but he's not gonna turn into a master cryptanalist because he cares. If he could break it then it was a weak code.

If only there were some magical force in the world that he could utilize in order to boost intelligence or have others decode it for him.

Also, weren't you not too long ago arguing against making conclusions based purely on assumptions?

[The Pilgrim]

I am not sure how Halfling names and geneology works in OoTS world, but I'll offer this idea that they are not related.

Belkar's last name is Bitterleaf.
Serini's last name is Toormuc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)k.

The only relative that I recall Bellkar referring to is his Aunt Judy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html).
(I vaguely recall a memory of him referring to a grandma, but I can't recall which strip that was in)

So, naturally, Belkar inherited the surname of his father, not the maiden surname of his mother.


Yeah, the Xykon who sucks at maths. He's perceptive and able to sit down and think through things when he cares but he's not gonna turn into a master cryptanalist because he cares. If he could break it then it was a weak code.

Maybe the +2 from becoming a Lich allowed him to finally understand basic calculus.

[Ruck]

It's a diary. It's not meant to contain crucial information.

But it does.

[Squire Doodad]

So, naturally, Belkar inherited the surname of his father, not the maiden surname of his mother.

If I stumble upon a piece of obscure 3rd party material that explicitly states that halflings inherit the surnames of their mother, I'm going to be so...indifferent like you wouldn't believe.


Maybe the +2 from becoming a Lich allowed him to finally understand basic calculus.

I mean, I would have gladly taken a +2 when I was taking Physics. Though there's not much basic about calculus; just stuff that isn't at the painfully advanced level.

[Fyraltari]

If only there were some magical force in the world that he could utilize in order to boost intelligence or have others decode it for him.
Fair point for magic.
Edit: is there magic that makes you learn techniques you don’t know though?
He said he did it himself.


Also, weren't you not too long ago arguing against making conclusions based purely on assumptions?
Xykon sucking at maths is established by SoD, isn’t it?

[RatElemental]

1) That's a conclusion.
2) How is that not a good reason?


Yeah, the Xykon who sucks at maths. He's perceptive and able to sit down and think through things when he cares but he's not gonna turn into a master cryptanalist because he cares. If he could break it then it was a weak code.

Cryptanalysis of codes not involving computers tends not to involve very much math. At most you need to do basic division to find averages of characters used or to determine the likely length of a key in a viginere.

I'd go so far as to say the majority of codes that pre-dated modern computing were fairly weak as well. You can break most of them through guesswork and statistical analysis. Null characters can only get you so far.

[Morgana]

I feel like if Serini was just dead, we would have found out by now. So even if she's dead, I doubt that you'll be the end of it considering her fate has been distinctly hinted at as a mystery, so her just being revealed dead and it not mattering at all for the plot would be a waste of perfectly good foreshadowing.

[Themrys]

So, naturally, Belkar inherited the surname of his father, not the maiden surname of his mother.


You're assuming halflings are patrilineal in OotS. Do we know that?


Seriously, there is no way Serini's genes could have produced a hellspawn like Belkar. Not to mention that she would never allow her child or grandchild to have the traumatizing childhood that it was hinted Belkar would have to have had.

I agree that she might not be dead and could possibly reappear, but certainly not as a relative of Belkar.

[Peelee]

Fair point for magic.
Edit: is there magic that makes you learn techniques you don’t know though?
He said he did it himself.


Xykon sucking at maths is established by SoD, isn’t it?
There is magic that boosts intelligence (various magic items, the 2nd level spell Fox's Cunning, etc).

Also,teenage Xykon is pretty different from Lich Xykon, I'd say.

I feel like if Serini was just dead, we would have found out by now.
Counterpoint: I feel like if Serini was just alive, we would have found out by now.

Imean, not really, but I'm just demonstrating that the carries the same weight as the opposite, and isn't terribly convincing.

Seriously, there is no way Serini's genes could have produced a hellspawn like Belkar. Not to mention that she would never allow her child or grandchild to have the traumatizing childhood that it was hinted Belkar would have to have had.

A.) That's not really how genes work.
2.) what hints at Belkar having a traumatizing childhood? IIRC the whole point of not showing Belkar's back story was so that he couldn't he sympathized with, so odds are his childhood was as traumatizing as Xykon's. Which is to say, not at all.

[hroþila]

I think there have been hints that Belkar's childhood or at least youth could be described as "traumatizing", except that it was traumatizing to those who weren't Belkar and it was largely Belkar's doing.

[The Pilgrim]

You're assuming halflings are patrilineal in OotS. Do we know that?

No, we do not. But we don't know either if they are matrilienal. Therefore, the argument that Belkar can't be Serini's offspring because they don't share the same surname, is inconclusive.

[brian 333]

How would this add to the story? Sure. It's not impossible, and there is no proof it isn't so, but absent a plot point, such a detail would be irrelevant. So the question that needs an answer is. "Does this create something relevant to the plot of the story and the characterization of Belkar?"

In my opinion it would cheapen Belkar's (theoretical) redemption arc. He wouldn't have achieved redemption because he earned it, but because of the intervention of Granny Toormuck. Sorry, B-Man, your grand finale got ninja'd. That, to quote Tarquin, would be a lousy ending.

[Themrys]

I think there have been hints that Belkar's childhood or at least youth could be described as "traumatizing", except that it was traumatizing to those who weren't Belkar and it was largely Belkar's doing.

Someone on here quoted the Giant as having said Belkar's antics would be sad, not funny, if he were given a backstory ... is Xykon's evilness less funny than Belkar's?

Of course, Belkar himself has hinted as being descended from a dynasty of evil, by referencing his mother's recipes when killing people, so it is possible his mother and his aunt Judy are just like him.

Serini doesn't seem like the type who could have raised him, either way.


I say, if she returns, it is more likely she wants revenge on the wizard who killed her crush and all his family with a familicide spell rather than because she's Belkar's other granny who didn't get left at a nursing home.

[Squire Doodad]

I say, if she returns, it is more likely she wants revenge on the wizard who killed her crush and all his family with a familicide spell rather than because she's Belkar's other granny who didn't get left at a nursing home.

Oh yeah, I completely forgot that Serini had a crush on Girard...though none of his descendants appear to be halfling-adjacent, so I doubt that went to its full conclusion. Plus, secrecy.


...now I'm imagining Serini going through the entirety of Windy Canyon and through the illusions to deliver some flowers, and then seeing the door is locked with a note saying "out for lunch".

[Peelee]

Someone on here quoted the Giant as having said Belkar's antics would be sad, not funny, if he were given a backstory ... is Xykon's evilness less funny than Belkar's?

An incomplete quote. I happen to have OtOoPCs on hand, in fact, and the specific quote was more along the lines of "If, for example, Belkar was emotionally scarred as a child, wouldn’t that be more sad than funny?"

That did not at all imply that he was emotionally scarred, or that he had any traumatizing experiences in the past; it was a hypothetical example.

Of course, Belkar himself has hinted as being descended from a dynasty of evil, by referencing his mother's recipes when killing people, so it is possible his mother and his aunt Judy are just like him.

And there, I suspect you're taking jokes far more seriously than intended.

[Fyraltari]

Look Peelee we're not going to agree on this, so... Fancy a bet?

[Peelee]

Look Peelee we're not going to agree on this, so... Fancy a bet?

Despite my normal propensity for gambling, I'ma say no, because I'm not all that convinced she's not dead; her being alive remains the single best way to get more detailed information on what exactly happened with the Scribblers and possibly the nature of the Snarl or the world within the rifts. However, currently all indications point to her reasonably being dead, so that's what I'm going to believe until proved otherwise.

[Jasdoif]

No, we do not. But we don't know either if they are matrilienal. Therefore, the argument that Belkar can't be Serini's offspring because they don't share the same surname, is inconclusive.If we're going down that road, the possibility that Serini used a pseudonym after she "retired" seems a lot simpler...as is the possibility that "Serini Toormuck" is a pseudonym, even if the former is simpler than the latter. Of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive....


I say, if she returns, it is more likely she wants revenge on the wizard who killed her crush and all his family with a familicide spell rather than because she's Belkar's other granny who didn't get left at a nursing home.Hmm...which wizard killed her crush by creating old age? Or would she settle for any deity with the Magic domain?

That still sounds like a better intro than the (e)strange(d) grandmother thing, though....

"Hello. My name is Serini Toormuck. You killed...everyone resulting from my crush getting together with people other than me...look, the details aren't important. Prepare to die."

[The Pilgrim]

Fair point for magic.
Edit: is there magic that makes you learn techniques you don’t know though?
He said he did it himself.

Yes, Xykon said he deciphered the locations himself. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html).

What Xykon did not say in the Online Comic, is that...
He already knew Lirian's Gate location, before deciphering it. Lirian's location was given by The Dark One to Redcloak. About 21-24 years after failing to secure Lirian's, Xykon found Serini's Diary. Then he first translated Lirian's location, then worked backwards to translate Dorukan's (SoD, pag. 95)
Breaking a cypher when you have the translation of a chunk of it, is not that difficult. Even for someone who sucks as much at analytical thinking as Xykon.

[jwhouk]

I feel like if Serini was just dead, we would have found out by now.

Counterpoint: I feel like if Serini was just alive, we would have found out by now.

Counter-counterpoint: Serini is Schroedinger's Halfling. (Which might explain why Mr. Scruffy likes Belkar...)

[Schroeswald]

Counter-counterpoint: Serini is Schroedinger's Halfling. (Which might explain why Mr. Scruffy likes Belkar...)

Does that mean Mr. Scruffy would also like

Thog, since he’s schroedinger’s antagonist?

[Aeson]

Breaking a cypher when you have the translation of a chunk of it, is not that difficult. Even for someone who sucks as much at analytical thinking as Xykon.
That really depends on the cipher in question. A high-end polyaphabetic cipher like, say, Enigma would be a pain to do without mechanical (or, preferably, modern electronic) aid or a very, very good understanding of how the cipher works, and it's not likely that you'd get that level of understanding of the cipher just from a relatively short section with known content.

Granted, this being a cipher in a diary that someone wrote while, presumably, on the road, it's much more likely that it's something along the lines of a Caesarian/shift cipher or some other similarly-simple cipher which can be done quickly and easily and is enough to conceal information from casual observers.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, I don't think Serini had access to modern computers. But it still took Xykon about 1-3 years to break Serini's code. So either Xykon is abismally dumb, or Serini's encription was something way more complicated than a caesarian cypher. Though not something as complicated as the Grand Chiffre, or else Xykon couldn't have broken it even with a chunk of text.

[KorvinStarmast]

If we're going down that road, the possibility that Serini used a pseudonym after she "retired" seems a lot simpler...as is the possibility that "Serini Toormuck" is a pseudonym, even if the former is simpler than the latter. Of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive.... From Uncivil Servant, Belkar story from before he was in prison for a killing of 15 people in a brawl (OoTPCs) we find that Belkar wasin the hands of slavers for seven months and I think that if he was of serini's family/clan he'd have grown up well off enough to avoid such a problem ... but it's unclear and a guess at best.

"Hello. My name is Serini Toormuck. You killed...everyone resulting from my crush getting together with people other than me...look, the details aren't important. Prepare to die." Heh, I like the way that scans.
@Emanick: thanks, that's what I had in the back of my mind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html). :smallsmile:

[jwhouk]

It might be that Girard gave her a magical "lock" on her diary that he couldn't open until he found the right combination - and then the whole thing was in plain Common.

If it wasn't that Xykon already had translated the diary before V's little Familicide spell, it would have been hilarious if that was what cracked the code for Team Evil.

[BasiliskSoldier]

I would argue that, based on the in-universe evidence, it makes slightly more sense for Serini to be dead, but that from a narrative perspective it makes slightly more sense for Serini to be alive, and that ultimately both possibilities are about equally likely.

[Squire Doodad]

Counter-counterpoint: Serini is Schroedinger's Halfling. (Which might explain why Mr. Scruffy likes Belkar...)

I wanna start a philosophical debate vis a vis the application of what Schrodinger's cat actually meant to Serini, but nah.

[Morgana]

Not really, cause just saying she's dead and just have that not affect the story at all is something you'd want to do as quickly as possible, cause otherwise you risk making her into this big chekov's gun that's never fired. Also, there were multiple moments already when Rich could have showed that she just died, and if that was the case then it just doesn't make any sense to constantly bring her mysterious fate up if it's not going to amount to anything. Simply speaking, at this point the only death she can get that would narratively make sense is one that actually has a story significance, Girard for example had his death tie-in to the familicide, even if a bit indirectly since the spell didn't actually killed him.

Just take a look at all the other Scribble members to this point, there was never any sort of mystery as if they lived or not, and Girard who outside of Serini was the only Scribble member who we ever doubted if they were alive or not, had the mystery of his fate be something of extreme importance. Keep in mind that my point wasn't even that Serini isn't dead, although I'm pretty sure that is the case, but that at this point even if she did die the reveal of her fate will have pretty major consequences to the plot. I just really can't see how a character's meaningless death can be considered an equivalent to their survival when narratively speaking those are 2 completely different things.

[Peelee]

Not really, cause just saying she's dead and just have that not affect the story at all is something you'd want to do as quickly as possible, cause otherwise you risk making her into this big chekov's gun that's never fired.

A falsis principis proficisci. If we accept this premise, then there is no mystery ever; Thog must be alive, or he would have been shown dead as quickly as possible, for example.

Chekov's Gun is a statement on conservation of detail. There's also another statement on conservation of detail:

Conservation of Detail is overrated.

Chekov's Gun is not something I would hang my hat on, is what I'm saying here.

[Sir_Norbert]

Also, there were multiple moments already when Rich could have showed that she just died, and if that was the case then it just doesn't make any sense to constantly bring her mysterious fate up if it's not going to amount to anything.

You may be confusing forum discussion with the actual comic. I remember that Vaarsuvius made an attempt to contact Serini, but no other mentions. Her mysterious fate has been brought up a grand total of once.

[Fyraltari]

You may be confusing forum discussion with the actual comic. I remember that Vaarsuvius made an attempt to contact Serini, but no other mentions. Her mysterious fate has been brought up a grand total of once.

Xykon could have mentionnés killing her both time he showed us the diary (once online, once in SoD).

[HorizonWalker]

Regarding Chekov's Gun, it's advice from a playwright about writing plays, where props and other such details are at a premium. In literally any other medium, where every prop isn't a huge pain in the ass for the crew to deal with, Chekov's Gun is largely inapplicable. You can have guns hanging on the wall without them having to go off. They're not real, they don't have to be managed by a ton of stagehands who are on a very strict timeline.

[jwhouk]

The Schroedinger reference was because Serini currently exists in a state of uncertainty, not unlike the cat in his theoretical box.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What's the (DnD 3.5) skill for breaking codes? Profession (codebreaker)? Knowledge (Cryptoanalysis)*? Craft (Codes)? Decipher Script?


*I know it's Cryptanalysis, but given it's Xykon we are talking about, I did an emphasis with the "o" to differentiate fro the ability to analyze a mausoleum.

Decipher Script, with infinite retries. Once you pass, you automatically understand everything as clear text. So all Xykon needed to do was invest some time, of which he has plenty.

[Jasdoif]

Decipher Script, with infinite retries.Decipher Script (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/decipherScript.htm) doesn't allow retries. (I'm also not sure it normally works on encoded text, but I have seen adventures give Decipher Script DCs to understand encoded text, so I could see it go either way...assuming, of course, "encoded" refers to cryptography rather than steganography)

[Aeson]

Well, I don't think Serini had access to modern computers. But it still took Xykon about 1-3 years to break Serini's code. So either Xykon is abismally dumb, or Serini's encription was something way more complicated than a caesarian cypher. Though not something as complicated as the Grand Chiffre, or else Xykon couldn't have broken it even with a chunk of text.
Did it take Xykon 1-3 years to break the cipher, or did it take him 1-3 years to locate and recover the diary?

[The Pilgrim]

Did it take Xykon 1-3 years to break the cipher, or did it take him 1-3 years to locate and recover the diary?

He was absent for three years, and he states that it took him "forever" to decode the diary. Therefore, I estimate it took him 1-3 years to do it, depending on how long it took him to discover and retrieve the Diary.

[Wizard_Lizard]

The Schroedinger reference was because Serini currently exists in a state of uncertainty, not unlike the cat in his theoretical box.

Actually it is because she was polymorphed into a cat!
(in blue)

[KorvinStarmast]

Actually it is because she was polymorphed into a cat!
(in blue) Hold the Phone. Does this open the line of inquiry based on the premise that Mr Scruffy is Serini polymorphed into a cat? :smallcool: I like the idea, but I think that Serini would honor the agreement not to mess with each other's gates, so she would not be hanging around Shojo and Soon's gates.

[D.One]

I think that Serini would honor the agreement not to mess with each other's gates, so she would not be hanging around Shojo and Soon's gates.

That's way more following rules than what I believe Serini would be inclined to do faced whith The Possible End of Existencetm. I'm not saying she's the cat, and part of Belkar's arc with Mr.Scruffy gets a little diminished by the cat being an Epic Adventurer in disguise influencing the events, it's just that I don't buy she would refrain from overseeing things like that just to keep the agreement, given the stakes.

[Peelee]

That's way more following rules than what I believe Serini would be inclined to do faced whith The Possible End of Existencetm. I'm not saying she's the cat, and part of Belkar's arc with Mr.Scruffy gets a little diminished by the cat being an Epic Adventurer in disguise influencing the events, it's just that I don't buy she would refrain from overseeing things like that just to keep the agreement, given the stakes.

Why not, when all the other Scribblers did?

[HorizonWalker]

Why not, when all the other Scribblers did?

As has been pointed out before: Soon didn't. He was the one Scribbler to stick to that agreement until well after the day he died.

[hroþila]

As has been pointed out before: Soon didn't. He was the one Scribbler to stick to that agreement until well after the day he died.
There were two clauses in the agreement: 1) don't mess with the others' gates (which everybody seems to have respected), and 2) don't stay in touch with the others (which only Soon seems to have fulfilled).

I would argue that the breach of #2 makes 1# perfectly plausible even if no other Scribbler did it, but still, they're separate things.

[Peelee]

As has been pointed out before: Soon didn't. He was the one Scribbler to stick to that agreement until well after the day he died.
I assume you mean "only Soon did" instead of "Soon didn't"?

There were two clauses in the agreement: 1) don't mess with the others' gates (which everybody seems to have respected), and 2) don't stay in touch with the others (which only Soon seems to have fulfilled).

I would argue that the breach of #2 makes 1# perfectly plausible even if no other Scribbler did it, but still, they're separate things.
I would agree. But didn't Girard also keep to the "don't contact the others" part? I only remember Dorukan and Lirian breaking that, and even that was only with each other.

[hroþila]

I would agree. But didn't Girard also keep to the "don't contact the others" part? I only remember Dorukan and Lirian breaking that, and even that was only with each other.
It's an inference from Girard's dialogue here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html): the trap notifies both the Draketooths and Serini, which makes little sense if they hadn't stayed in touch. But it is way less explicit than I remembered, to be honest.

[Schroeswald]

I assume you mean "only Soon did" instead of "Soon didn't"?

I would agree. But didn't Girard also keep to the "don't contact the others" part? I only remember Dorukan and Lirian breaking that, and even that was only with each other.

Girard and Serini talked to each other (or had plans to when Soon came along).

EDIT: Ninja’d

[Peelee]

It's an inference from Girard's dialogue here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html): the trap notifies both the Draketooths and Serini, which makes little sense if they hadn't stayed in touch. But it is way less explicit than I remembered, to be honest.

Also, that's (in theory) only a "i'll only break the rules after Soon breaks the rules" thing. Which totally still breaks the rules, but by that point the whole thing would be in shambles anyway, at least so far as Girard was concerned.

[HorizonWalker]

I assume you mean "only Soon did" instead of "Soon didn't"?
I misread what you were saying; thought you meant "All the Scribblers went back on their word, why wouldn't Serini also do that?"

[hroþila]

Also, that's (in theory) only a "i'll only break the rules after Soon breaks the rules" thing. Which totally still breaks the rules, but by that point the whole thing would be in shambles anyway, at least so far as Girard was concerned.
Yeah, that makes sense. And since the message was recorded soon after they split, it is even possible that he discussed the issue with Serini after they made the agreement but just before they all parted ways.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Decipher Script (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/decipherScript.htm) doesn't allow retries. (I'm also not sure it normally works on encoded text, but I have seen adventures give Decipher Script DCs to understand encoded text, so I could see it go either way...assuming, of course, "encoded" refers to cryptography rather than steganography)

D&D makes no distinction. Coded is coded, doesn't matter how. And yes, DS works on codes. I know it was clarified in a Sage Advice (with the lower DCs for code breaking), so presumably it was explained in a splat somewhere. And yes, for code breaking you get infinite retries; I remember that because it annoys me that bad handwriting is a better way of concealing info than encryption.

[Peelee]

D&D makes no distinction. Coded is coded, doesn't matter how. And yes, DS works on codes. I know it was clarified in a Sage Advice (with the lower DCs for code breaking), so presumably it was explained in a splat somewhere. And yes, for code breaking you get infinite retries; I remember that because it annoys me that bad handwriting is a better way of concealing info than encryption.

Isn't Sage Advice for 5e?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sage Advice ran from the earliest days of D&D (seriously, I do not remember a time it was not in DRAGON) to, well, whenever. I stopped playing current edition when 4E came out and I realized I had no interest in spending another $100 to start another edition.

[Peelee]

Sage Advice ran from the earliest days of D&D (seriously, I do not remember a time it was not in DRAGON) to, well, whenever. I stopped playing current edition when 4E came out and I realized I had no interest in spending another $100 to start another edition.

I suspected that when you mentioned it but I've only ever seen people reference it for 5e,so I wanted to make sure (and Google was surprisingly unhelpful). Thanks!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sage Advice is pretty much a necessity for playing any edition of D&D, to the point they probably should've published a compendium of the columns.

For the record, Skip chose three of my questions to answer, so I am likely slightly biased on the subject.

[Jasdoif]

D&D makes no distinction. Coded is coded, doesn't matter how. And yes, DS works on codes. I know it was clarified in a Sage Advice (with the lower DCs for code breaking), so presumably it was explained in a splat somewhere. And yes, for code breaking you get infinite retries; I remember that because it annoys me that bad handwriting is a better way of concealing info than encryption.Hmm....Oh, there it is, buried among Complete Adventurer's expanded skill descriptions. The DC to decipher is 10+(creator's total Decipher Script modifier at the time of the cipher's creation), though; and it requires ranks in Decipher Script to attempt the check to decipher it. And the initial try takes a day, and retries take a week each....

[Rogar Demonblud]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. D&D has rules to let you do anything once you find the right splatbook. Somewhere, there's a splat that lets fighters cast meteor swarms at will.

[D.One]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. D&D has rules to let you do anything once you find the right splatbook. Somewhere, there's a splat that lets fighters cast meteor swarms at will.

Giant Fighters do that all the time :smallbiggrin:

[RatElemental]

D&D makes no distinction. Coded is coded, doesn't matter how. And yes, DS works on codes. I know it was clarified in a Sage Advice (with the lower DCs for code breaking), so presumably it was explained in a splat somewhere. And yes, for code breaking you get infinite retries; I remember that because it annoys me that bad handwriting is a better way of concealing info than encryption.

This is only tangentially related, but I once let my players decipher a code without a check at all, because they actually managed to dicipher the actually encrypted text I'd given them for real as a prop.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's just being smart rather than a slave to RAW.

[Squire Doodad]

This is only tangentially related, but I once let my players decipher a code without a check at all, because they actually managed to dicipher the actually encrypted text I'd given them for real as a prop.

That's called being a good DM with clever players, kudos :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

Isn't Sage Advice for 5e? It's been with the game since the early 80's, AD&D 1e era. I have a few old dragon mags. The first one I find Sage advice in was #37(May 1980), and the #24 I have from 1979 does not have it, so I'll guess that somewhere around #30 (1980ish?) is when Sage Advice began ... and I don't think it has stopped being a thing.

[Squire Doodad]

It's been with the game since the early 80's, AD&D 1e era. I have a few old dragon mags. The first one I find Sage advice in was #37(May 1980), and the #24 I have from 1979 does not have it, so I'll guess that somewhere around #30 (1980ish?) is when Sage Advice began ... and I don't think it has stopped being a thing.

Of course, Sage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvia_officinalis) advice also dates back millennia if you are talking about the right kind.

[Jasdoif]

Regardless, the information regarding the gates was encrypted, so she knew it was sensitive information.Hmm....Now I'm wondering: Was it encrypted/encoded/etc. when she first wrote on it; or is the diary a copy of the original diary with encryption/encoding/etc. added on the relevant parts?

It could make a difference: The existence of a copy would make it less likely that Serini kept it on her person (as opposed to the original...or if she destroyed the original to hamper attempts to locate the diary through divination, she might have started a new diary)...which would increase the chance of Xykon getting it without killing Serini in the process.

[RatElemental]

Hmm....Now I'm wondering: Was it encrypted/encoded/etc. when she first wrote on it; or is the diary a copy of the original diary with encryption/encoding/etc. added on the relevant parts?

It could make a difference: The existence of a copy would make it less likely that Serini kept it on her person (as opposed to the original...or if she destroyed the original to hamper attempts to locate the diary through divination, she might have started a new diary)...which would increase the chance of Xykon getting it without killing Serini in the process.

She could have just asked Dorukan to cast erase for her on that section so she could fill it back in encrypted.

[hroþila]

She could have just asked Dorukan to cast erase for her on that section so she could fill it back in encrypted.
Certainly possible, but personally I think it's not likely that she got anyone else involved, someone who could have told him that having the coordinates in her diary was a terrible idea.

[RatElemental]

Certainly possible, but personally I think it's not likely that she got anyone else involved, someone who could have told him that having the coordinates in her diary was a terrible idea.

"Hey Dorukan, I wrote down the locations to all these places before we realized they were this earth shatteringly important. Can you cast some kind of spell to erase them from my journal so I don't have to burn the whole thing?"

[hroþila]

"Hey Dorukan, I wrote down the locations to all these places before we realized they were this earth shatteringly important. Can you cast some kind of spell to erase them from my journal so I don't have to burn the whole thing?"
Yes, but would she then go on to write them down again? That would be a certain level of deliberately deceitful headstrongness which I'm not sure she possesses/ed. Granted, we know next to nothing about her, but still, speaking from a strictly personal point of view I don't see it.

[Squire Doodad]

Yes, but would she then go on to write them down again? That would be a certain level of deliberately deceitful headstrongness which I'm not sure she possesses/ed. Granted, we know next to nothing about her, but still, speaking from a strictly personal point of view I don't see it.

I feel like she felt the need to have the locations, even if heavily encrypted, as her last resort in case something bad happened and she had to pass on the notebook to someone so they can help the rifts. She probably just left them in the tower as she went to go take care of something immensely important.

Ironic, no?

[Jasdoif]

She could have just asked Dorukan to cast erase for her on that section so she could fill it back in encrypted.While true, nearly the entire diary scenario is comprised of "could"s right now. There's few points that have a really high likelihood of being fact:

Lirian saying there were four other Gates, guarded by her friends, was enough information for Xykon to eventually find Serini's diary (this is what made me think of divinations)
Xykon was able to "translate" the location of Dorukan's Gate by working backwards from a "translation" of Lirian's Gate's location
Xykon was able to "decipher" locations for Soon's Gate and Girard's Gate from the diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) (at this point, Kragoor's Gate is a bit lower down on the likelihood scale).



I feel like she felt the need to have the locations, even if heavily encrypted, as her last resort in case something bad happened and she had to pass on the notebook to someone so they can help the rifts.Also, the monitoring devices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) lose a lot of utility without the other Scribblers having a way to locate the other Gates if they go down. That's how the Order got (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) involved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), after all.

[Squire Doodad]

While true, nearly the entire diary scenario is comprised of "could"s right now. There's few points that have a really high likelihood of being fact:

Lirian saying there were four other Gates, guarded by her friends, was enough information for Xykon to eventually find Serini's diary (this is what made me think of divinations)
Xykon was able to "translate" the location of Dorukan's Gate by working backwards from a "translation" of Lirian's Gate's location
Xykon was able to "decipher" locations for Soon's Gate and Girard's Gate from the diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) (at this point, Kragoor's Gate is a bit lower down on the likelihood scale).


Also, the monitoring devices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) lose a lot of utility without the other Scribblers having a way to locate the other Gates if they go down. That's how the Order got (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) involved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), after all.

I'd imagine Dorukan rigged a spell so that in the event a gate collapses, it broadcasts the location to the other people protecting the gates. So that would be how Shojo knew where to look (including when Lirian's gate blew), and Girard's family would have probably held their ground regardless to protect their own gates.

[RatElemental]

While true, nearly the entire diary scenario is comprised of "could"s right now. There's few points that have a really high likelihood of being fact:

Lirian saying there were four other Gates, guarded by her friends, was enough information for Xykon to eventually find Serini's diary (this is what made me think of divinations)
Xykon was able to "translate" the location of Dorukan's Gate by working backwards from a "translation" of Lirian's Gate's location
Xykon was able to "decipher" locations for Soon's Gate and Girard's Gate from the diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) (at this point, Kragoor's Gate is a bit lower down on the likelihood scale).


Also, the monitoring devices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) lose a lot of utility without the other Scribblers having a way to locate the other Gates if they go down. That's how the Order got (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) involved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), after all.

Honestly, I don't buy that knowing the location of Lirian's gate would help Xykon break the code. Cribs are really helpful when deciphering things, but that's part of the problem. It took Xykon years to break the code, and if you have a crib as big as literally 1/5th of what you're deciphering, there's very few codes that you couldn't break much, much sooner than that and the ones you couldn't you'd never break because they require a different strategy altogether.

As for the location itself, Xykon would 1: Have to know what coordinate system Serini was using (which might be one she made up and included in the encrypted section). 2: Know the coordinates of Lirian's gate in that system. And 3: Know where in the ciphertext the information he knew was (trial and error can help a little bit with this step, if you otherwise know what you're doing).

[Jasdoif]

Honestly, I don't buy that knowing the location of Lirian's gate would help Xykon break the code. Cribs are really helpful when deciphering things, but that's part of the problem. It took Xykon years to break the code, and if you have a crib as big as literally 1/5th of what you're deciphering, there's very few codes that you couldn't break much, much sooner than that and the ones you couldn't you'd never break because they require a different strategy altogether.I did notice he used "translate" instead of "decipher" in Start of Darkness. My theory is that the diary's actual entries didn't pinpoint the rifts but did contain the occasional passing reference to a geographical feature or landmark or something, such that Xykon was able to very slowly piece together very vague ranges...and if the Order of the Scribble went from Dorukan's Gate to Lirian's Gate, Xykon would have to follow the steps backwards to get to Dorukan's Gate.

Which, you know, is still just a big mountain of "could"s that sounds nice.


As for the location itself, Xykon would 1: Have to know what coordinate system Serini was using (which might be one she made up and included in the encrypted section). 2: Know the coordinates of Lirian's gate in that system. And 3: Know where in the ciphertext the information he knew was (trial and error can help a little bit with this step, if you otherwise know what you're doing).I tend to agree...as hilarious as it would be, the diary probably did not have "ziggerfau-gerrrnuf, ah-ah, pahoy-hoy" scribbled in a margin.

Oddly enough, Rogar may have the answer here: If Xykon deciphered the locations via a Decipher Script check as outlined in the 3.5 Complete Adventurer, he would have been unable to do so before the conversion to 3.5 in strip 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)...which is why he was only able to determine one location in Start of Darkness, which as a prequel was still 3.0 .

[Squire Doodad]

Oddly enough, Rogar may have the answer here: If Xykon deciphered the locations via a Decipher Script check as outlined in the 3.5 Complete Adventurer, he would have been unable to do so before the conversion to 3.5 in strip 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)...which is why he was only able to determine one location in Start of Darkness, which as a prequel was still 3.0 .

That's...unnervingly compelling. Like that honestly feels like a good and solid explanation instead of it just being rampant speculation that sounds pretty.

[RatElemental]

I tend to agree...as hilarious as it would be, the diary probably did not have "ziggerfau-gerrrnuf, ah-ah, pahoy-hoy" scribbled in a margin.


I... don't understand the reference.

[Jasdoif]

I... don't understand the reference.Exactly (https://youtu.be/wHzT-Xd2qwE?t=32) o_o

[KorvinStarmast]

She probably just left them in the tower as she went to go take care of something immensely important. Maybe she was old enough that when she went to the market, she got distracted and forgot how to get home? (Happened to my father in law in his mid 70's. Left the house for a hair cut and could not find his way home for half of a day).

It took Xykon years to break the code, Xykon is a Sorcerer, not a Wizard. As is shown in SoD, he's not big on the INT, is big on the CHA. Code breaking would seem to me to be an kind of Intelligence based skill check, or a specialty needing skill points in it to succeed. One of the ways that Redcloack is a complementary character to him on their team is Redcloak's intelligence (and of course Wisdom, being a Cleric).

But I like Rogar's estimate better. :smallsmile:

[The Pilgrim]

Honestly, I don't buy that knowing the location of Lirian's gate would help Xykon break the code. Cribs are really helpful when deciphering things, but that's part of the problem. It took Xykon years to break the code, and if you have a crib as big as literally 1/5th of what you're deciphering, there's very few codes that you couldn't break much, much sooner than that and the ones you couldn't you'd never break because they require a different strategy altogether.

Historically, it took three years for a profesional military cryptanalyst to break the Grand Chiffre. After figuring out a small sequence of words. Previously, no one had been able to break it for two and a half centuries.

Sure, Serini's code will probably be nowere as complicated as the Grand Chiffre. But neither is Xykon a professional cryptanalyst, or someone particullary well suited for it.

[D.One]

Xykon is a Sorcerer, not a Wizard. As is shown in SoD, he's not big on the INT, is big on the CHA. Code breaking would seem to me to be an kind of Intelligence based skill check, or a specialty needing skill points in it to succeed.

Xykon is smarter than he looks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).

[Kantaki]

Xykon is smarter than he looks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).

Well, yes?
He has to be, seeing that he looks like he's literally brainless.
Cause he's a skeleton.:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

Historically, it took three years for a profesional military cryptanalyst to break the Grand Chiffre. After figuring out a small sequence of words. Previously, no one had been able to break it for two and a half centuries.

Sure, Serini's code will probably be nowere as complicated as the Grand Chiffre. But neither is Xykon a professional cryptanalyst, or someone particullary well suited for it.I was thinking maybe everything wasn't encoded, but each article's first word (maybe each word's first letter?) was an entry for a diagraphic...something or other, and each pair was the encoding for a piece of the coordinate you chose. Perhaps it's more interesting than really practical, but it should evade detection enough that, when mixed with actual diary segments...you'd be hard-pressed, absent some clue or other, to identify that your coordinates could be there at all.

[Squire Doodad]

I was thinking maybe everything wasn't encoded, but each article's first word (maybe each word's first letter?) was an entry for a diagraphic...something or other, and each pair was the encoding for a piece of the coordinate you chose. Perhaps it's more interesting than really practical, but it should evade detection enough that, when mixed with actual diary segments...you'd be hard-pressed, absent some clue or other, to identify that your coordinates could be there at all.

Serini probably did intend for the info to be eventually deciphered - after all, you can't keep that eternal rift gate safe forever, you'll die of old age sooner or later.

[Jasdoif]

Serini probably did intend for the info to be eventually deciphered - after all, you can't keep that eternal rift gate safe forever, you'll die of old age sooner or later.Well, maybe you can't keep it safe personally, barring some drastic action; but Soon had the Sapphire Guard, Girard had his family....It's unclear who Serini would have intended to pass the diary and code on to, especially after Xykon eliminated Lirian (who'd have easily outlived Serini in terms of natural lifespan), but it's entirely possible.

[Fyraltari]

Serini probably did intend for the info to be eventually deciphered - after all, you can't keep that eternal rift gate safe forever, you'll die of old age sooner or later.

Thats’s probably why she made her dungeon complex so that, according to Oona, unless you kill too many of them the monsters come back even after some died. Shojo said that Serininfilled the tombs with monsters and then, unlike her comrades went back to adventure so it seems that Kraagor’s Tomb does not need anyone to oversee it in order to be defended.

[RatElemental]

Dorukan's seems to be the only one that was contingent on its guardian surviving forever. But, as a wizard, Dorukan was also the only one in a position to actually pull that off, there's ways to slow the aging process using epic magic, and in pathfinder at least ways for wizards in particular to stop the aging process altogether, might be something similar in 3.5.

[HorizonWalker]

Really? What do Pathfinder wizards get to do to stave off aging?

[The Pilgrim]

Lichdom stops aging. :P

[HorizonWalker]

Lichdom stops aging. :P

Well, yeah, but turning yourself into an undead monster is generally on the Evil side of the street, and not really an option for Good wizards, which Dorukan presumably is.

[The Pilgrim]

Given the visible aging effects on Dorukan, it means he had no means available to stop aging. Even though he was an epic wizard dating an epic druid. (And yes, I take for granted that he would have wanted to remain youth, if only to match his elven lover's apparent age).

[D.One]

Well, yeah, but turning yourself into an undead monster is generally on the Evil side of the street, and not really an option for Good wizards, which Dorukan presumably is.

Well, there's the Extended Life Span epic feat, and I'm sure magic can help, too, without all the becoming an undead abomination part.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Potions of longevity work too.

[D.One]

Potions of longevity work too.

In 3.5? Where's it?

[RatElemental]

Really? What do Pathfinder wizards get to do to stave off aging?

The Immortality arcane discovery. Can only be taken by 20th level wizards. Removes physical age penalties and stops the aging process entirely.


Given the visible aging effects on Dorukan, it means he had no means available to stop aging. Even though he was an epic wizard dating an epic druid. (And yes, I take for granted that he would have wanted to remain youth, if only to match his elven lover's apparent age).

The Fortify seed for epic spells has a built in effect you can use to add more years to your current age category. It won't make you younger but it'll keep you from tipping over into the next category for a while. You can cast it again once you're there to extend that category too.

[D.One]

You can cast it again once you're there to extend that category too.

That's up to interpretation, because the adjustment to one category adjusts the following categories too, so one could imagine that another casting would only extend the following category if the bonus added superseeded the previous bonus (since they don't stack).

[RatElemental]

That's up to interpretation, because the adjustment to one category adjusts the following categories too, so one could imagine that another casting would only extend the following category if the bonus added superseeded the previous bonus (since they don't stack).

Where in the rules does it say it adjusts following categories too? And even if it did, that just sves you having to actually cast it again.

[Jasdoif]

Where in the rules does it say it adjusts following categories too?Right in the seed's text. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm)



When a spell increases a creature’s current age category, all higher age categories are also adjusted accordingly.

[D.One]

Where in the rules does it say it adjusts following categories too? And even if it did, that just sves you having to actually cast it again.


Right in the seed's text. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm)




Yes, precisely, you don't need to cast it again (unless you are doing a casting with higher bonus), but it also prevents stacking the casting for one age category with the next...

Usually, 3.5 avoids effects that deal with age and aging. Even the Ghost's attack, that in previous editions caused aging, became ability drain.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's because they realized nobody bothered to track age. They also removed the hit from Haste which broke it. Or revealed it was broken already, IMHO.

[unluckiest13]

Based on Belkar's pineapple throwing ability (I am too new to hyperlink..cuz that's a thing...but #514) I think he's more likely a descendant of Baron Pineapple.

[Peelee]

Based on Belkar's pineapple throwing ability (I am too new to hyperlink..cuz that's a thing...but #514) I think he's more likely a descendant of Baron Pineapple.

I gotcha, buddy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html)!

[D.One]

Based on Belkar's pineapple throwing ability (I am too new to hyperlink..cuz that's a thing...but #514) I think he's more likely a descendant of Baron Pineapple.

That, or he's throwing the baron's descendants just for the fun of it... :smallamused: