Convince Me Borderlands 3 Is Good

[Celticbear]

I've been a fan of the series since it's inception. I tried playing Fl4k, but realized that I couldn't be both invisible and have a Skag until some ridiculous high level. Deleted him. Played Moze, was fine, until I got to the maliwan guys. They're overpowered, and the game seems to favor them over the player a disgusting amount. It feels like every time I go up against them, I'm playing "Where Angels Fear To Tread" at level 20 instead of 26. When I deleted her, and got to the unskipable beginning cutscenes for the third time, I wanted to vomit.

Like the title card says, convince me I didn't waste sixty dollars.

[Keltest]

The Maliwan guys are a pain at first, but its only their intro that has a little bit of bumpy power scaling. Once you progress further into the planet, you get some more power and generally have an easier time. They also have some interesting weaknesses to exploit. For example, the heavies almost all die if you shoot the big power orb on their shoulder a bunch, and damage their allies when they do so.

[thirsting]

Disclaimer: I don't have BL3 until it comes out on PC. :p But... This is a looter shooter. That means you have to grind. And grind. And grind. And then try again the things you were previously not strong enough to beat.

Also, why are you deleting your characters? Simply switch to a new one, and let the old ones just be there. Prevents later regrets, if you get a yearning to try that one character again, but now have to start all over again.

[Rynjin]

As far as I know Fl4k can swap between all three of his pets from first level. It's only the higher level augments in a given tree that make the upgraded versions better which are locked behind a given tree's progression.

As far as Maliwan troops...use Shock damage and they become chumps. Remember that cycling elemental damage is a big part of these games; Shock for shields (blue health), Fire for flesh (red health), and Corrosive for armor (yellow health). Radiation and Cryo seem equally good on almost everything. Hitting critical points also helps. A lot of the Maliwan troops have power packs or some such on their back that acts as extra crit points.

I've been playing Amara, who is insane. My friends have been playing Fl4k and Moze, and they are both also insanely good. The former has skills so good in his trees you can basically pick skills at random and still come out on top, and the latter has three distinct and easy to see build types (guns, explosions, or mech-focused) that are all solid, especially pre-50. Zane seems equally nuts.

You basically ****ed yourself by deleting the characters you'd made, but that's not exactly the game's fault.

For my part I've been quite enjoying it. Amara is like playing a Super Saiyan with the melee build (mostly green splash of red and blue trees). I'm playing on True Vault Hunter (playthrough 2) with Mayhem III active (150% more enemy health/shields, among other things) and still having a blast punching dudes into bloodly splatters on the wall, and I've been stuck with the same green rarity class mod since level 34.

My friend playing Moze (the grenade chuckin' build) has been doing great and having fun too. That's the weaker build for Moze mind you, before you think you need hyper optimization to do endgame content. The Fl4k player got off earlier than we did, so I dunno how he does, but I'd imagine pretty solidly.

The balancing both between classes and inside of each class is VASTLY improved over every single other entry in the series. The guns are fun, the loot actually feels meaningful. Enemy types are far more varied than any previous game, as are locales. It's the best Borderlands has ever been, and I actually went in expecting to hate the game like I did 2 (I didn't even play the Pre-Sequel).

I wouldn't have even bought it if I didn't have to buy and play it for work, so it had to really work past my initial negative bias. That's the best endorsement I can give.

[Celticbear]

I was angry when I made this thread, I already had a bad day. I'll probably hop back to the game eventually, I love borderlands too much. Ah, what rejection, exes, writing stress, and lack of sleep can do to a man. Thank you all for inspiring me to pick the controller back up.

[Rynjin]

I was angry when I made this thread, I already had a bad day. I'll probably hop back to the game eventually, I love borderlands too much. Ah, what rejection, exes, writing stress, and lack of sleep can do to a man. Thank you all for inspiring me to pick the controller back up.

With all that going on, it sounds like you were pretty restrained, all things considered.

[nathandev]

I voted extremely no, but my reasons aren't so extreme, nor is my dislike for the game extreme. It's just because I'm not into these sorts of games.

[Balmas]

I'm of two minds on Borderlands 3.

If you're looking at it purely from a gameplay point of view, Borderlands has never been so good. Guns are varied, with hundreds of unique effects on top of a robust framework of different manufacturers. Movement is satisfying, platforming is forgiving, and maps have an incredible amount of verticality and complexity that BL2 didn't have. Just as before, there's a great variety in character classes, and each class even has several super-obvious builds you can take it down. Gameplay wise, it's great.

My complaints are almost entirely with the story, which is... well, it's pretty piss-poor. This is the third time I've tried to encapsulate my feelings about the story, and at this point I've given up on making a coherent three-thought essay and have instead decided to vomit out my thoughts for later reassembly.

Let's start off by saying that this is not your story in Borderlands 3. In previous iterations, nearly everything that happens is a direct result of the Vault Hunters' actions. The first crew were promised treasure and opened a Vault to find the treasure. The second crew went up against Handsome Jack to get revenge on him for trying to kill them. These are simple and easy motivations, but the important thing is that it's the vault hunters doing it, the vault hunters figuring out what to do and how to go about it. It's wish fulfillment, power fantasy, plain and simple.

That's not true in Borderlands 3. No, Borderlands 3 is the story of the sirens. It's the sirens making decisions, the sirens influencing the plot, the sirens who really make a difference. You're there, certainly, but mostly in the role of gofer and glorified chauffeur. You make it possible for the sirens to go from plot section to plot section, at which point you the player character quietly fade into the background so the Sirens can take center stage. And when I say fade into the background, I mean it; There's probably at least fifteen minutes' worth of cutscene where the player character is physically present, but completely unable to do anything to alter the plot. After all, if you were to do anything--you know, like introduce the Calypso twins to your vast arsenal of interesting and unique weaponry as they saunter around in front of you--the story would be about twenty hours shorter than it currently is. No, you can do absolutely nothing while they kill and murder, even though you're in the same room as them and in theory there'd be nothing to stop you feeding them your shotgun, because if you do so, the Sirens couldn't show off their magic space wizard mumbo-jumbo skills.

Speaking of mumbo jumbo, it's fortunate for the writers that they have a cast of magic tattooed space wizards to pull on, because it means the writers can ass-pull and ex-machina everything without having to worry about little things like consistency or explanations.

Maya can predict who will become a siren, and adopt them as her new protege! How? Doesn't matter! Space wizards!
Troy can leech sirens, we find out, and not just his sister. How? Why? That's not important! Stare at a Thanos'd Maya! Feel sad! Get attached to the Spunky Rebel Teen whose only character traits are that she's spunky and a rebel!
And now Troy has Maya's powers! Which, naturally, include: twenty-foot vertical leaps, pumping people full of Eridium so they can turn into anointed, and sucking in enough eridium to phaselock the friggin' moon and drag it back to the planet. Oh, and phaselock can now apparently be used to move objects, or something? Isn't it great that we never have to explain any of this ever?
Whatever, because after we get to open the Eden-6 Vault, Tannis gets phaseblast-kidnapped by Tyreen! You know, the siren who's out of sight and possibly on an entirely different planet! Who can now just kidnap someone by precisely scooping them up with stolen siren powers that we've never seen used this way! This power will never be used again after this point, despite how simple it would make it for the Calypso twins to wipe out everyone on Sanctuary III! Plot! Go follow it!
And now Tannis is a siren! How? Don't care! Siren! Angel or something or other, yada yada, powers don't need explaining, SPACE WIZARDS!
Tannis's siren powers let her control any technology, up to and including her ability to kill-off-for-real vault monsters and hack into ancient eridian Destroyer-containing technology. But, whoops, she can't actually take on these turrets. Better go and get the macguffin she needs to power up and let her take on the turrets for real! You don't need to know why she can't just hack these now! Fetch, vault hunter!
With all these powers, we're able to get to Troy, shut off his feed of Eridium, and have a big, annoying boss battle with far too many immunity phases! Yay! At which point, both Tyreen and Troy die! And Ava gets Maya's powers! Yay! And Lilith says that Maya must have seen this coming, and planned for it, and intended to die so that Ava could inherit Maya's siren powers! Don't ask how either of those things work, because it's not answered!
Except Tyreen uses her magic space wizard powers to yank down the archway onto the three main characters! You know, it's amazing how those power absorption powers totally allow her to crumble rock for free! Plot! Go follow it!
Ava uses her--that is to say, maya's--powers to project a shield to cover herself, Tannis, and Lilith! You know, the massive barrier shield that Maya is famous for and has always been able to use, and Ava has seen her use multiple times and therefore perfectly understands how to use in the half second she has.
By this point, both my brother and I were exhausted of this bullcrap, so having the game throw another four hours' worth of story mission was... not the best. Either way, we go through Nekrotafeyo, fighting cultists and anointed--you remember, those things that were specifically Troy's ability, and which took practice to get right if audio logs are to be believed--until we get to the final machine. At which point Tyreen ex-machinas herself in, ex-machina crushes a vault key, and teleports to the vault monster, all in a cutscene during which the player is locked in place and capable of doing nothing, for some reason.


There's just so many points where the game blatantly cheats, either by introducing new powers as the plot demands or by forcing the player into an unbreakable fugue of Cutscene Incompetence, and it really brings the story down. Pair that with the generally low tie from the character to the villains, and it just feels like a subpar story.

Compare that to the story of Borderlands 2. I recognize that Handsome Jack is a tough act to follow, but still. He genuinely feels like a clever, charismatic opponent who thinks ahead and hates you specifically. When he blows up Bloodwing's head, it's because he planned ahead and planted a bomb on Bloodwing's collar, not because he spontaneously developed a siren power in head-blow-uppery. He doesn't even show up in person until after you kill his daughter, at which point you have approximately three seconds of cutscene between Dead Roland>Jack>Lilith in a collar, so you avoid the feeling of being forced to watch for five minutes as Ava teen-protagonists her way into killing Maya. And then, after you kill Angel, you go directly to working on how to get to Jack, culimating in a climactic fight between the Vault Hunters and the douchebag who tried to kill them in the intro.

When I played Borderlands 2, I never felt like the game was cheating, or trying to eke out empathy, or playing for time, or throwing in a fourth, unneeded act after the climax; I felt all four of those applied to Borderlands 3, and it sucks, because it's a blemish on an otherwise excellent game.

[Rynjin]

Eh. Borderlands' story has always been trash, and 3 is no exception. Just do what I do and tab out during cutscenes.

I will say to be fair, the thing with Tannis was actually predicted by fans not long after Borderlands 2 came out the first time, so it's not that huge an asspull. There's probably some deep lore somewhere to explain it; Borderlands has a deceptively complex setting for a series with such trash plots and meme-y humor.

[polish_bear_65]

I simply will not, cause it's not worth it. 0 new ideas. Pumping cash from an old franchise.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Eh. Borderlands' story has always been trash, and 3 is no exception. Just do what I do and tab out during cutscenes.

I will say to be fair, the thing with Tannis was actually predicted by fans not long after Borderlands 2 came out the first time, so it's not that huge an asspull. There's probably some deep lore somewhere to explain it; Borderlands has a deceptively complex setting for a series with such trash plots and meme-y humor.

Speaking only for earlier entries, as I've not seen the new one yet.

The stories are trash, but the background lore regarding the mega-corporations, their actions and neglect in shaping society and the general absurdist mockery of certain unnamed utopian philosophies is rather good.

The characters and the plot just seem to be there because there needs to be something to contextualize the gameplay.

[The Glyphstone]

Did Borderlands grow a plot when I wasn't looking?:smallconfused:

It's Diablo with guns, zany and occasionally lolrandom humor, super cartoonish characters, and the BBEG of whatever game you're playing occasionally calls you up on your cell phone to threaten/mock/complain at you. It's always been super linear as you ride the shoot-and-loot train from zone to zone, and at least as far back as Game #2 there have been uninterruptible cutscenes where the villain does evil stuff and your amazing arsenal of weaponry is helpless to stop them.

[Balmas]

Eh. Borderlands' story has always been trash, and 3 is no exception. Just do what I do and tab out during cutscenes.

I will say to be fair, the thing with Tannis was actually predicted by fans not long after Borderlands 2 came out the first time, so it's not that huge an asspull. There's probably some deep lore somewhere to explain it; Borderlands has a deceptively complex setting for a series with such trash plots and meme-y humor.

"Borderlands' story has always been trash" does not invalidate "and this one is even more trash than normal," especially when the even-more-trash-than-normal story detracts from the endless cycle of acquisition and power fantasy that makes up the main gameplay loop.

Honestly, Tannis's thing doesn't bother me all that much. Ava's does.
Here's the thing. You're probably looking at this and groaning, "oh, boy, not another person who dislikes Ava." And I'm saying back, "if there are that many people who dislike her, there's probably a reason for that."

When we see her first, Ava is an impulsive brat, full of bravado and short on brains, with a major case of hero-worship for Lilith. She's listened to Maya's stories of vault hunters and Lilith and built up this incredible image in her mind of "that's gonna be me." So, when we open the first vault, she decides that staying on the ship is for clowns, and her presence gets Maya killed. Instead of reflecting on her actions and the consequences thereof, she goes to the funeral and berates Lilith for not doing anything. Ava insists that Lilith is supposed to be the Firehawk, and vault hunters don't run from danger, and she's supposed to "run towards the fire!"

This could be alright if this were setting up Ava for character growth. It'd still be fantastically annoying to sit through a five minute cutscene where the vault hunters stare at their navels while Maya gets killed, but I'd get over it eventually. But no, not only does Ava not realize anything, but her immaturity is shown to be actually correct. When the vault hunters go to tackle Troy and Tyreen, who leads the assault? Ava, who up to this point hasn't displayed the slightest bit of competence. Who saves the trio of sirens when Tyreen ex-machinas herself back to life? Ava. Whose words inspire Lilith to sacrifice herself? Friggin' Ava. Who does Lilith give the ship to when she sacrifices herself--Elly, who built the ship? Tannis, who's been part of this since the beginning? No, it's Ava. Who, in the end credits, receives most of the screen time and is effectively implied to be the new leader of the vault hunters? Motherfriggin' Ava.

And the worse part is, basically none of this was necessary. Nothing that Ava does couldn't have been better by an established member of canon. Hell, Maya herself could have easily filled the role of somebody who reinspires Lilith and helps her redefine herself. But no, some hack of a writer thought we needed some prepubescent nuisance to whine at the player character, experience no character growth, and be somehow declared the Saviour of All Mankind at the end of things.

[Magic_Hat]

I can convince you of anything you want. Doesn't mean I'll be honest.

At the very least when artists start pumping out parody comics and animation shorts you'll at least get the jokes.

[The Glyphstone]

So now I'm wondering what, exactly, we should be considering 'normal/average' for Borderlands.

You had Borderlands 1, which was original but also super bland compared to its successor, very linear and with an extremely forgettable antagonist.

Then came Borderlands 2, the gold standard of the franchise. Better gameplay, more guns, and the best villain the franchise has ever seen.

After that, you get Joker 2019The Pre-Sequel, an entirely unnecessary focus on how a wonderfully entertaining psychopath was originally a mild-mannered accountant who goes batpoop evil because reasons, with an obviously pre-determined and anticlimatic ending. Also had an antagonist somehow worse than Steele.

Tales From The Borderlands was a tie-in, but a well-received one for story.

If 2 is our median being the best...it's basically impossible to top that.

[Rynjin]

"Borderlands' story has always been trash" does not invalidate "and this one is even more trash than normal," especially when the even-more-trash-than-normal story detracts from the endless cycle of acquisition and power fantasy that makes up the main gameplay loop.

Honestly, Tannis's thing doesn't bother me all that much. Ava's does.
Here's the thing. You're probably looking at this and groaning, "oh, boy, not another person who dislikes Ava." And I'm saying back, "if there are that many people who dislike her, there's probably a reason for that."

When we see her first, Ava is an impulsive brat, full of bravado and short on brains, with a major case of hero-worship for Lilith. She's listened to Maya's stories of vault hunters and Lilith and built up this incredible image in her mind of "that's gonna be me." So, when we open the first vault, she decides that staying on the ship is for clowns, and her presence gets Maya killed. Instead of reflecting on her actions and the consequences thereof, she goes to the funeral and berates Lilith for not doing anything. Ava insists that Lilith is supposed to be the Firehawk, and vault hunters don't run from danger, and she's supposed to "run towards the fire!"

This could be alright if this were setting up Ava for character growth. It'd still be fantastically annoying to sit through a five minute cutscene where the vault hunters stare at their navels while Maya gets killed, but I'd get over it eventually. But no, not only does Ava not realize anything, but her immaturity is shown to be actually correct. When the vault hunters go to tackle Troy and Tyreen, who leads the assault? Ava, who up to this point hasn't displayed the slightest bit of competence. Who saves the trio of sirens when Tyreen ex-machinas herself back to life? Ava. Whose words inspire Lilith to sacrifice herself? Friggin' Ava. Who does Lilith give the ship to when she sacrifices herself--Elly, who built the ship? Tannis, who's been part of this since the beginning? No, it's Ava. Who, in the end credits, receives most of the screen time and is effectively implied to be the new leader of the vault hunters? Motherfriggin' Ava.

And the worse part is, basically none of this was necessary. Nothing that Ava does couldn't have been better by an established member of canon. Hell, Maya herself could have easily filled the role of somebody who reinspires Lilith and helps her redefine herself. But no, some hack of a writer thought we needed some prepubescent nuisance to whine at the player character, experience no character growth, and be somehow declared the Saviour of All Mankind at the end of things.

Sure, it sucked.

So?

Just delete all the cutscenes from the game folder and move on.

@Glyphstone: The issue with 2 is that its gameplay was lackluster. Manufacturers lost their identity, the playable characters were almost universally lame, and its endgame was excruciating.

3 sidesteps all of these issues.

[The Glyphstone]

Sure, it sucked.

So?

Just delete all the cutscenes from the game folder and move on.

@Glyphstone: The issue with 2 is that its gameplay was lackluster. Manufacturers lost their identity, the playable characters were almost universally lame, and its endgame was excruciating.

3 sidesteps all of these issues.

I would agree on all points, though 2 still seems to carry the top of people's lists on its story alone. 3's gameplay is by leaps and bounds an improvement over 2, and substantially over 1 as well, but how far down the list does its plot drag it to counterbalance that?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Sure, it sucked.

So?

Just delete all the cutscenes from the game folder and move on.

@Glyphstone: The issue with 2 is that its gameplay was lackluster. Manufacturers lost their identity, the playable characters were almost universally lame, and its endgame was excruciating.

3 sidesteps all of these issues.

You clearly never played as Krieg. Or Gaige. Or Axton. Or Maya.

[The Glyphstone]

What about Axton was fun? He was Roland, but with a slightly more functional turret. I played Sal and will cheerfully admit his gameplay was super boring, but Zero was somehow worse.

[Mechalich]

I would agree on all points, though 2 still seems to carry the top of people's lists on its story alone. 3's gameplay is by leaps and bounds an improvement over 2, and substantially over 1 as well, but how far down the list does its plot drag it to counterbalance that?

It depends on how much you play the game. With a looter-shooter like Borderlands the importance of the plot declines over time, particularly as you move into the endgame or create multiple characters, to the point of simply becoming background noise. So if you're only going to play through the game once and don't intend to bother with the endgame, then yeah, the general weakness of the plot is a problem. But if you get into the post-plot stage of the game, the massively superior gameplay shines through immensely.

Also, I don't think it's entirely fair to 3 to say that it comes badly to 2 in the story department. 2 managed to hit the all right notes for Borderlands' depraved insanity about as well as could be imagined, something that other games didn't accomplish. 3's story is comparatively lackluster, but mostly it's fine. The biggest story problem is that, when it came to dealing with the problem of the player being one of four very different characters the wrote the story around the PC in a particularly blatant way. That's a significant issue, but it was certainly present in 2 and the Pre-Sequel as well.

[Rynjin]

You clearly never played as Krieg. Or Gaige. Or Axton. Or Maya.

Krieg is great, until you hit a brick wall in playthrough 2 and his melee build ceases to function. Gaige is braindead easy and unengaging to play by design. Maya is one note. Axton is Roland but worse since he brings far less to the table in terms of support.

That's really the thing with 2 as compared to 1 and 3; every build for every character boils down to "shoot gun", because everything else is trash. 1 and 3 have a greater diversity of builds both between and within characters, since melee and action skill builds are functional.

[The Glyphstone]

Not to mention Slag Or Go Home. I haven't heard anything about endgame BL3 though, did they solve the health bloat or has Radiation become the New Slag?

[Rynjin]

Not to mention Slag Or Go Home. I haven't heard anything about endgame BL3 though, did they solve the health bloat or has Radiation become the New Slag?

I haven't had any issues before torquing the game up to Mayhem 3 on the second playthrough; there's a pretty stark difference between Mayhems 1, 2, and 3, and 3 clearly requires some kind of endgame level gear for you to start chewing through it.

Radiation definitely is not a Slag equivalent though; it's main schtick is that people explode WHEN THEY DIE, it doesn't increase how much damage they take from other sources. i guess it's also pretty rare or an enemy to resist it, which may make it an element of choice, but it also has little (no? I dunno if Moze of Fl4k have any Rad support) skill support.

[The Glyphstone]

Huh, I thought I read somewhere that Radded enemies took extra damage, the way Corrosive worked in BL1.

[Rynjin]

Double checking, it also creates a very small AoE DoT around the primary target, so it makes crowd control easier.

[Balmas]

Krieg is great, until you hit a brick wall in playthrough 2 and his melee build ceases to function. Gaige is braindead easy and unengaging to play by design. Maya is one note. Axton is Roland but worse since he brings far less to the table in terms of support.

That's really the thing with 2 as compared to 1 and 3; every build for every character boils down to "shoot gun", because everything else is trash. 1 and 3 have a greater diversity of builds both between and within characters, since melee and action skill builds are functional.

I found that Krieg's melee build was functional all the way into the end-game and UVHM; it was only once you hit the OP levels and melee damage no longer scaled with level that Release The Beast and Bloodsplosion started to fall off. Axton was fun, so long as you weren't relying on his turret to actually do more than slag enemies; Fastball and Tediore-chucking were both great fun.

Not gonna argue about Gaige, though. Nothing screams fun like shamfleeting your way to victory, or just shooting the ground repeatedly until enemies died.


Not to mention Slag Or Go Home. I haven't heard anything about endgame BL3 though, did they solve the health bloat or has Radiation become the New Slag?

No, I haven't noticed issues with that. And I haven't noticed any issues with health bloat, even into the Mayhem levels.

With that said, I will note that Mayhem can be frustrating to deal with, especially Mayhem III. The issue isn't the health bloat, but that there are so many modifiers that are just "you do less damage," and that you can draw multiple modifiers that stack or cancel each other out. For instance, I wish that [+x% damage with shotguns/smgs/pistols and -x% damage with snipers/assault rifles] was incompatible with [-x% damage with shotguns/smgs/pistols and +x% damage with snipers/assault rifles] or [-50% gun damage].

I've hit the point in Mayhem III where if the map modifiers are crap, I'd rather save and reload until I get ones that are fun instead of beating my head against the wall of not being able to do more than tickle enemies. Bullet reflection and universal damage nerfs are instant reload conditions, as I can't stand modifiers that punish players for doing the thing the video game is set up for you to do.

I mean, this is a mode called Mayhem. You'd think that Gearbox would be able to come up with more creative modifiers than "some guns are worse than others." You know, stuff like "enemies turn into timed nukes when they die," or "big head mode," or "lootsplosion mode." Maybe there's a modifier called "Heavy Weapons Guy" that just gives enemies all vladof guns, and so on. Be creative, have some fun.


Radiation definitely is not a Slag equivalent though; it's main schtick is that people explode WHEN THEY DIE, it doesn't increase how much damage they take from other sources. i guess it's also pretty rare or an enemy to resist it, which may make it an element of choice, but it also has little (no? I dunno if Moze of Fl4k have any Rad support) skill support.

In many ways, radiation is basically normal damage, but better. It's the same as normal damage when dealing with flesh, 50% more effective when dealing with shields, and the only real issue is that you lose damage when facing armored enemies. Pair that with the DoT and the explosion radius when enemies die, and it's quite potent as a generalist elemental choice.

[Inarius]

In many ways, radiation is basically normal damage, but better. It's the same as normal damage when dealing with flesh, 50% more effective when dealing with shields, and the only real issue is that you lose damage when facing armored enemies. Pair that with the DoT and the explosion radius when enemies die, and it's quite potent as a generalist elemental choice.

Yeah radiation is a pretty handy element for most situations, one thing it isn't advisable for though is close range or melee builds since its aoe and explosion will catch you in it as well. Well unless you're amara and you want to get dotted up to get your super speed buff stacking like crazy :smallbiggrin:

[Spore]

Having only played BL 2 and the Pre-Sequel as well as dabbled in BL 1, I just feel the game is so much WORSE in single player. You can see all the mechanics that are extremely fun with friends or online that are just utter bull in a solo game.

I already dislike random loot distribution (I hated it when Diablo 3 did it, and I don't like it with the BL series) but I mostly played the series for the story. Because my friends have a few of the figurines and they love claptrap and whatnot. But the humor is forced, predictable, not crass enough to really hit with me (yea, butt stallion, hilarious, that is like a 3rd grader trying to be funny). And to tell an engaging story, the tone shifts too much from hyper serious (like Jack murdering his grandma, or Roland being killed) to over-the-top silly-but-not-funny.

I feel this would be a nice game to pick up from the bargain bin with a friend to play for a few hours to distract yourself from the inane gameplay and stupid jokes. But as a single player game it just tanks.

[factotum]

Having only played BL 2 and the Pre-Sequel as well as dabbled in BL 1, I just feel the game is so much WORSE in single player. You can see all the mechanics that are extremely fun with friends or online that are just utter bull in a solo game.

Having played all three games almost exclusively single player, I'd have to disagree to an extent. The first game was the one where playing single player worked best, you should maybe have done more than dabble in that one. BL2 made the enemies so ridiculously bullet spongey that it pretty much required you to use slag weapons to increase the damage you were doing to tolerable levels, and that meant either having to run a Gunzerker with one slag and one regular weapon, or constantly switching between weapons, which was just irritating.

[Keltest]

Having played all three games almost exclusively single player, I'd have to disagree to an extent. The first game was the one where playing single player worked best, you should maybe have done more than dabble in that one. BL2 made the enemies so ridiculously bullet spongey that it pretty much required you to use slag weapons to increase the damage you were doing to tolerable levels, and that meant either having to run a Gunzerker with one slag and one regular weapon, or constantly switching between weapons, which was just irritating.

My experience is certainly that the game is more fun with more people (friends, specifically), but I don't know if that's anything to do with Borderlands specifically so much as the fact that group activities are almost always just inherently more fun.

[boj0]

I've played through TVHM on Moze, and I've dabbled with Fl4k and Zane...and I'm just not having fun. It isn't a matter of not liking the mechanics or gun play, (which I feel are far superior to BL2), I just cannot bring myself to slam my head against the story anymore, the only characters I actually enjoy (Balex and Wainwright) are too deep into the story to make the slog of Ava, Katagawa, and the Calypsos worth it.

On top of the teeth-gritting story, Gearbox just made the game lame to play more than once. Bank and Stash being fused meant I ran out of room almost immediately, because the original drop rates for Legendaries was so high that I stopped using anything lesser just as soon, and no reason to grind for drops.
Nerfs and balancing is too little too late, reducing drop rates didn't matter when you had everything already, making Maliwan and Atlas guns stronger doesn't make them enjoyable to use.
As stated before, Mayhem isn't "chaotic" it's just an extra wall to slam your head against.

I will say, I'm willing to wait and see where it goes: BL2 had fantastic DLC and with the gameplay improvements I have a good feeling that they will be fantastic as well.

However, in the meantime I'm hopping back into Destiny, because right now, you couldn't pay me to play BL3 :smallfrown:

[Erloas]

Bank and Stash being fused meant I ran out of room almost immediately, because the original drop rates for Legendaries was so high that I stopped using anything lesser just as soon, and no reason to grind for drops.
Nerfs and balancing is too little too late, reducing drop rates didn't matter when you had everything already
This part seems really easy to fix, at least for new characters... simply don't transfer items between characters. With items being level locked anyway you've probably got a lot of new character time between upgrading to various saved items. It's not like self imposed limits on playing a game to make them more entertaining on later playthroughs is uncommon.



While I can't speak to 3 specifically, the previous games were a lot more fun with other players even if you didn't know the other players. The games are designed around a team. Classes have weaknesses that really stand out in some cases but that becomes much less of an issue with other players. The second-wind/recovery thing works much better with other players. The increased spawns of mooks as well as all the upgraded versions is much higher with more players. The game just flows a lot better with more players.

[boj0]

Are you saying I should just throw away the lv50 gear I have in my bank just because my alts can't use it? :smallconfused: That's the problem I have, I can either save gear for one character, or save about 10 pieces of gear for all my characters. Since it's all one storage space, its not even a matter of twinking gear, its that my new characters don't get a bank unless I drop a ton of legendaries

[Keltest]

Are you saying I should just throw away the lv50 gear I have in my bank just because my alts can't use it? :smallconfused: That's the problem I have, I can either save gear for one character, or save about 10 pieces of gear for all my characters. Since it's all one storage space, its not even a matter of twinking gear, its that my new characters don't get a bank unless I drop a ton of legendaries

As much as its against instinct, theres no real value in keeping the legendaries if your other characters are never actually going to reach the level needed to use them.

[boj0]

With the way that Gearbox has been rolling out hotfixes, I find it worth holding on to other legendaries in case something I use gets nerfed, or something in my bank gets buffed. Its just such a strange design decision that the game that espouses having over a billion guns, lets you hold onto an infinitesimally small percentage of them; Destiny 2 lets you have max 3 characters and has a substantially smaller amount of gear, and yet your vault space is magnitudes larger by default.

[Erloas]

Maybe it's just how I play these games, but I don't know if I have much of anything in my banks in any of the previous BL games. Even in Diablo 3 I don't think I had much of anything stored, I had some stuff there at least, but it was because they had whole sets of armor that were mostly all-or nothing sets.
It just seems that if we've got to the point where one of the biggest complaints is "the banks are too small" is running peak first world problems.

[Mechalich]

A maximum sized bank in Borderlands 3 holds 50 items. There's little reason to put anything other than level 50 legendaries in there unless you happen to encounter some really good lower-level item for leveling purposes. Considering that a not-insubstantial portion of the legendary items available in the game are actually rather awful or only useful for some fairly bizarre builds, ~40 legendaries ought to do you just fine, especially when you add in the potentially 8 legendaries your endgame character will have equipped for regular use (which won't be the same from one character to the next).


Its just such a strange design decision that the game that espouses having over a billion guns, lets you hold onto an infinitesimally small percentage of them

The nature of Borderlands procedural gun generation determines that only a very small percentage of the guns you encounter will be anything other than junk suitable for sale as vendor trash. You're lucky to get a single good gun of each type at any one time, never mind having too many.

[boj0]

Until you also throw in weapons with alternate elemental stats, or annointed varieties for different Vault Hunters.

Yeah plenty of rolls are trash, and plenty are pretty good but build dependent; those are the things that I want more room for, stuff that I'm not using *now* but would be perfectly viable if I respec into a different tree.

[Spore]

It just seems that if we've got to the point where one of the biggest complaints is "the banks are too small" is running peak first world problems.

Diablo 3 gives you SEVERAL pages of bank slots. What I read about BL3, it is a single page that limits you heavily (since its account based and not per character.

[factotum]

Diablo 3 gives you SEVERAL pages of bank slots. What I read about BL3, it is a single page that limits you heavily (since its account based and not per character.

I think Grim Dawn gets this about right--you get several pages of storage for your character, and the same amount of space which is shared between all of them. That game has the concept of item sets, though, which I don't think BL3 does?

[Mechalich]

Diablo 3 gives you SEVERAL pages of bank slots. What I read about BL3, it is a single page that limits you heavily (since its account based and not per character.

The Borderlands 3 Bank, when fully upgraded, holds 50 items. A fully upgraded character can also hold 40 items in their backpack plus the 8 items (4 guns, 1 grenade mod, 1 class mod, 1 shield, and 1 artifact) they actively wear. Since a character only wears 8 items at once, a build is 8 items (and practically, many builds will be less because they'll predominantly use only 1 or 2 guns). The overwhelming majority of builds are focused on a specific legendary class mod, of which there are 5 per character at present (FL4K gets 6). That means you could carry the items for all possible builds just in the character's backpack without using the bank at all (though this would mean you'd have to ignore the vendor trash, but if you had all those legendaries why wouldn't you?). The fully upgraded bank can hold 6 complete builds with space left over. That's plenty.

I mean, look it's not like B3 doesn't have quality of life problems, for one, vending machines and fast travel points are found far too infrequently, leading to lots of discarded loot especially in the early game and an annoying amount of backtracking to reach certain hard to access areas, I just don't find the Bank to be a particularly big issue. It's certainly far, far less important than the underwhelming story and the random ridiculousness of Mayhem.

[Balmas]

The Borderlands 3 Bank, when fully upgraded, holds 50 items. A fully upgraded character can also hold 40 items in their backpack plus the 8 items (4 guns, 1 grenade mod, 1 class mod, 1 shield, and 1 artifact) they actively wear. Since a character only wears 8 items at once, a build is 8 items (and practically, many builds will be less because they'll predominantly use only 1 or 2 guns). The overwhelming majority of builds are focused on a specific legendary class mod, of which there are 5 per character at present (FL4K gets 6). That means you could carry the items for all possible builds just in the character's backpack without using the bank at all (though this would mean you'd have to ignore the vendor trash, but if you had all those legendaries why wouldn't you?). The fully upgraded bank can hold 6 complete builds with space left over. That's plenty.

I mean, look it's not like B3 doesn't have quality of life problems, for one, vending machines and fast travel points are found far too infrequently, leading to lots of discarded loot especially in the early game and an annoying amount of backtracking to reach certain hard to access areas, I just don't find the Bank to be a particularly big issue. It's certainly far, far less important than the underwhelming story and the random ridiculousness of Mayhem.

That might be true once you're at max level and have decided on Your BuildTM, but I find that most of the fun in Borderlands is in the playing around, experimenting, figuring out which guns do what. To do that, you need to have space in your backup to pick up new gear. And that doesn't even take into account the annoyance that comes with having a full backpack and having to decide which thing to drop so you can pick uyp this new bit of gear.

[Grim Portent]

Personally I haven't had any issues with item capacity, I didn't even use the bank until I was running around at level 50 on mayhem mode and had enough legendaries that I couldn't try them all in a reasonable time frame.

When levelling up I take the view that a bad piece of gear in borderlands is like a bad haircut in real life, you'll grow out of it soon. Almost everything will be tossed by the wayside within a few levels, so it's not worth saving anything below level 50 even if you plan on levelling multiple characters, they'll get plenty of gear to run through the game with on their own.

[Mechalich]

That might be true once you're at max level and have decided on Your BuildTM, but I find that most of the fun in Borderlands is in the playing around, experimenting, figuring out which guns do what. To do that, you need to have space in your backup to pick up new gear. And that doesn't even take into account the annoyance that comes with having a full backpack and having to decide which thing to drop so you can pick uyp this new bit of gear.

Backpack space is different from bank space. In my post I mentioned that the game has a problem with an insufficient number of vending machines, a problem that is particularly acute at low levels but remains in place well into the endgame since enemies can easily drop over a hundred items between vending points. Now 95% of all item drops will be garbage - they'll be under-leveled or have a crippling trait flaw (almost anything with negative weapon damage is worthless) or be a lousy manufacturer/type combination or will simply be a worse version of what you already have - and bypassing them simply means you're leaving money on the ground (which in the endgame becomes meaningless since there's nothing to buy).


When levelling up I take the view that a bad piece of gear in borderlands is like a bad haircut in real life, you'll grow out of it soon. Almost everything will be tossed by the wayside within a few levels, so it's not worth saving anything below level 50 even if you plan on levelling multiple characters, they'll get plenty of gear to run through the game with on their own.

I largely agree. There's only a handful of things that you'd want to save for another character that aren't going to be legendary 50s. It you get lucky and find a generalized gun that has a massive + weapon damage percentage that hits well above its weight class that might be worth keeping but otherwise there just isn't much.

This is especially true given how the manufacture mail system works in B3. If you find a gun model that you like and use a lot that system will pretty much insure that you keep getting roughly level appropriate versions of it all the way up to level 50.

[Inarius]

Personally I think the bank space is too limited as well, mostly because there's going to be balance changes so builds will become obsolete or be given a new lease on life. That legendary that sucked last week might work pretty well the following week after some tweaks to talents or to the item itself. That being said its not going to be the biggest problem in the world because apparently BL3 is getting no new characters with DLC so the 4 we have is all were getting this time around.

Other than that my only gripes for the game are story related. The writing just seems so erratic and over the place and it feels more like there's a cameo cast as opposed to a supporting cast like in the other games. That doesn't even get into my biggest gripe which is how again did Tyreen lose? I mean just look at her powerset, all she has to do is teleport in and touch you to win and if you're playing Amara she darn well should of done it.