Fochlucan Lyricist Trick?

[RNightstalker]

Looking at a Fochlucan Lyricist build and I came up with an interesting idea: retraining the level of Druid once you can. Under the PHB II retraining rules, you don't lose any languages, and Druidic isn't listed as a class feature. By RAW...it should work.

[Venger]

Yes, that's correct. Interesting trick. I might also advise learning it from a blighter.

[Rebel7284]

Hellbred[FC2] and Spellscales[RotD] explicitly know any languages they knew in their old life.
There is also a Planescape race Shad that get Druidic as a bonus language.

[Silvercrys]

Retraining should work, yep.

Hellbred should work since it's definitely readable as being reborn as a new character... but I think if you do the Spellscale ritual on, say, a Human Druid 5, you just get a Spellscale Druid 5, not a totally new character. It says you lose all racial traits and gain the traits of a Spellscale but not that you lose your class levels, etc. Sort of like becoming a Dragonborn of Bahamut.

I couldn't find an official 3.5 source for Shad but if they have Druidic as a native language explicitly that would work too.

It's an interesting trick but I can't think of any ways to break it.

[RaiKirah]

The Child of Eberron Sovereign Archetype gives you Druidic as a bonus language, but if you're taking that you are probably a Dragonwrought Kobold and getting into Fochlucan Lyricist is probably the least of the cheese you're serving :)

[RNightstalker]

Thanks for all the replies all! I seem to be on the right track, I'll have to post my intended build soon.


Yes, that's correct. Interesting trick. I might also advise learning it from a blighter.

That could be an interesting roleplay.


Hellbred[FC2] and Spellscales[RotD] explicitly know any languages they knew in their old life.
There is also a Planescape race Shad that get Druidic as a bonus language.

Why should I know what Planescape is?


Retraining should work, yep.

Hellbred should work since it's definitely readable as being reborn as a new character... but I think if you do the Spellscale ritual on, say, a Human Druid 5, you just get a Spellscale Druid 5, not a totally new character. It says you lose all racial traits and gain the traits of a Spellscale but not that you lose your class levels, etc. Sort of like becoming a Dragonborn of Bahamut.

I couldn't find an official 3.5 source for Shad but if they have Druidic as a native language explicitly that would work too.

It's an interesting trick but I can't think of any ways to break it.

I'm glad to hear that I'm on to something.


The Child of Eberron Sovereign Archetype gives you Druidic as a bonus language, but if you're taking that you are probably a Dragonwrought Kobold and getting into Fochlucan Lyricist is probably the least of the cheese you're serving :)

Staying away from Eberron for now, though I could look into it in the future.

What do y'all think of cloistered cleric for Lore being "identical" to bardic knowledge?

[bean illus]

What do y'all think of cloistered cleric for Lore being "identical" to bardic knowledge?

I rule that identical means identical. Partly because FL is so hard to get into, and because allowing it doesn't overshadow the Druid/Bard preset choice.

Otoh, I don't allow items (evasion ring) to qualify for prereqs.

Btw, there's a regional feat that allows "any" language (if a dm disallows retraining). Bardic Tutelage, I think?

[Thurbane]

https://i.imgur.com/Xr12rTp.jpg

[RNightstalker]

I rule that identical means identical. Partly because FL is so hard to get into, and because allowing it doesn't overshadow the Druid/Bard preset choice.

Otoh, I don't allow items (evasion ring) to qualify for prereqs.

Btw, there's a regional feat that allows "any" language (if a dm disallows retraining). Bardic knack?

I think the Druidic language is where specific would trump a feat.

I've got the Shadow Template to get evasion, but I'm still looking for a way to get Perform as a class skill. Able Learner is still limited by max ranks for cc skills, even though they only cost one point now.

I also don't understand the trick they use for early entry into Mystic Theurge to fill some levels before FL.

[Silvercrys]

Shadow Template is gonna cost you two levels, that's quite a bit even with LA buyoff. If you're doing early entry to Mystic Theruge anyway, you might as well play a Bamboo Spiritfolk and do Wizard 1/Cleric 2/Mystic Theruge 7/Arcane Heirophant 10 or something.

Though if you're getting the template for actually-free or you're set on Fochlucan Lyrist, well... I guess I've got two entries for you.

Illumians with the Naenhoon sigil can spend turn/rebuke undead attempts to power metamagic. So you can technically use Heighten Spell to cast 2nd level spells with it. Illumians also have the Human subtype, so they can take Human Paragon and use it to add Perform (String Instruments) to your class skills forever.

Your build, then, is Shadow Illumian (Naenhoon) Human Paragon 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theruge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. You can buy off your LA at levels 6 and 9, as I recall. If you can convince your DM to let you, you might try to take the second two levels of Human Paragon and add the spellcasting from those to Mystic Theruge, too, though that's a bit sketchy.

The other one is, well, the same one but with Precocious Apprentice and Alternative Source Spell instead of Illumian. Precocious Apprentice gives you a 2nd level spell slot and Alternative Source Spell allows you to cast it as a divine spell.

Shadow Human Wizard 1/Human Paragon 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Mystic Theruge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Same build, slightly different capabilities and entry to Mystic Theruge. This one is probably more likely to be allowed because it doesn't smell quite as cheesy as the first one, but the Illumian build is stronger since you can use your racial power to reduce metamagic costs from feats like Persistent Spell.

[Bphill561]

In Forgotten realms there is the Bardic Tutelage Region in champions of valor that grants a region language plus any other language including dead ones. It does not have the usual wording prohibiting druidic.

I am kind of fond of

Bard/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Spell Sword 2/ Spell Dancer 2/ Divine Crusader/Sublime Chord/ FL9

H1 Ocular Spell, L1 Combat Casting, F2 Dodge, F3 Mobility, L3 Sanctum Spell, L6 Endurance, SS7 Weapon Focus, L9 Extend Spell, L12 Persistent Spell....

Not as good as a cleric, but all Charisma based casting and a BAB of 16. The main reason for this route of course is Spell Dancer for free metamagic. Just have to pick your domain and deity's favored weapon.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Vodyanoi from Dragon Magazine simply know druidic and don't have the prohibition for teaching it to outsiders. It's my go to trick for getting into Fohlucan Lyrist.

[RNightstalker]

Vodyanoi from Dragon Magazine simply know druidic and don't have the prohibition for teaching it to outsiders. It's my go to trick for getting into Fohlucan Lyrist.

What is/are Vodyanoi and which issue?

[Sutr]

Retrain shape soulmeld soulspeaker circlet. Use the circlet and spend 2 skill points to teach yourself the language. If memory serves it doesn't have the druid restriction.

Though I really do want to play the blighter who keeps spreading druidic.

[Crake]

You can snag evasion with soul bind (impulse boots) and open chakra (feet).

[Sutr]

You can snag evasion with soul bind (impulse boots) and open chakra (feet).

This is debated, the open chakra feet says it opens the chakra not that it gives one the ability to bind a soulmeld. It however may not be unbalanced.

[Crake]

This is debated, the open chakra feet says it opens the chakra not that it gives one the ability to bind a soulmeld. It however may not be unbalanced.

Uhh...

"Benefit: When this feat is selected, choose one of the following chakras: crown, feet, or hands. You can now bind a soulmeld or a magic item to that chakra."

[Sutr]

Uhh...

"Benefit: When this feat is selected, choose one of the following chakras: crown, feet, or hands. You can now bind a soulmeld or a magic item to that chakra."

Yep no words saying you gain an additional chakra bind(see classes). Useful as a mulitclass feat for incarnate or totemist, but missing vital wording allowing you to actually do it without a chakra bind from a class. I'm not sure this debate belongs here though so we can just agree its debatable.

[FaerieGodfather]

I rule that identical means identical. Partly because FL is so hard to get into, and because allowing it doesn't overshadow the Druid/Bard preset choice.

Otoh, I don't allow items (evasion ring) to qualify for prereqs.

Btw, there's a regional feat that allows "any" language (if a dm disallows retraining). Bardic Tutelage, I think?

One of the longest-running arguments of my adult life is with my best friend, who insists that getting into Fochlucan Lyrist via Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense is legitimate.

Not that it matters anymore, since I only do mutant 3.PF and Bards can get Evasion on their own.