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BardicDuelist
2007-10-14, 09:38 PM
Basically, I want to know about this class (having read Heroes of Horror again and noticed it from a player's prospective).

What is good?

What is bad?

What is broken?

How can you break it?

I want to know both as a DM and a player, so that I can look out for and plan for it, since it may be on the list of splatbook classes I allow.

Thanks in advance.

Solo
2007-10-14, 09:40 PM
It reeks of cheese. You gain access to cleric spells and cleric domain spells, many of which are also on sorcerer/wizard spell lists.

Thinker
2007-10-14, 09:41 PM
It is better than a Wizard.
Divine casting means you won't have spell failure chance from armor (not that it should come up too often).
You can learn every divine spell via scroll.

Want some ranger spells? check.
Want some paladin spells? check.
Want some druid spells? check.
Want some domain specific spells? check.

You get all the versatility of a wizard with even fewer drawbacks.

kamikasei
2007-10-14, 09:42 PM
The brokenness of the Archivist, as I understand it, stems from the fact that it can learn any divine spell on a scroll. This means that, if you can assume that any given divine casting class will have scribed scrolls of its spells that you can find and use, you can get all clerical and druid spells, plus all spells from all cleric domains, plus access to some spells at lower-than-intended levels by taking them from spell lists like the paladin's and ranger's.

Since this depends on your DM allowing you access to such spells, it's not totally broken in actual play.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-14, 09:49 PM
Since you have the book, I don't need to post the WOTC link. Basically, it's a powerful class, POSSIBLY. It CAN get almost every spell in the game, thanks to domain creep, and that's the major power. The dark knowledge abilities are nifty, but not super. The brokenness comes with domains like celerity, which can make the archivist a better version of a wizard, with a better spell list. Breaking it, without what amounts to DM consent, or claiming acquiring a lot of obscure spells in backstory, can be achieved with a warlock who creates scrolls using imbue item to make every obscure domain in the books. That's about it, with artificer errata, as the DM controls access to spells.

As a DM, as long as you don't allow too crazy domain spells, and block warlock scroll creation, you should be mostly OK. Also, remember it is still a full caster, and, while squishy and with some MAD, can still go demi-CoDzilla, though squishily. Think of it as a wizard, except with very limited spell acess, relatively. Give enough obscure spells, and quest for them, to make it worthwhile, but don't overdo it. Check the spell list of any starting Archivist for anything seemingly ridiculous, and/or make acess to domain spells inordinately expensive.

As a player, look out for the MAD, and use the advantages and disadvantages mentioned as best you can. If you need power, try to get all the spells you can snuck into your character when you start, as copied from other archivists, scrolls, etc. Otherwise, keep in mind that you're essentially a divine wizard with some nice boosts for the party.

Chronos
2007-10-14, 09:59 PM
In principle, any spell at all can become a divine spell (through Alternate Spell Source), so if an Archivist can make friends with a wizard with that feat, he can gain the entire Wizard spell list. In addition, of course, to the entire Cleric and Druid lists, which contain many spells for which the wizard just doesn't have an equivalent. So instead of thinking of it as "squishy cleric", think of it as "identical to wizard, except with armor, and an even broader spell list". If, of course, you can get the DM to allow the cheese.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-14, 10:02 PM
Where is Alternate Spell Source from?

Arbitrarity
2007-10-14, 10:04 PM
And, if you're the DM, and informed, you should be able to block most of the cheese, even without houseruling (probably). Avoid warlocks, don't allow Dragon magazine, and you control most of spell income. Spells are a big motivator for wizards or archivists, when scarce. Point on their being essentially better wizards, but wizard generally has a better spell selection (especially in that he gets arcane list at level, and archivist only gets cleric list, limiting his selection significantly).

Any way you cut it though, he's a full, prepatory caster, and that makes it essentially automatically broken. Well, depending on your measuring stick.

EDIT: Alternate Source spell is in a Dragon Magazine. Also, southern Magician, from faerun, has a similar effect, if I recall.

bugsysservant
2007-10-14, 10:04 PM
Well, if you limit domains to core, and outlaw alternate spell source, it will be slightly above a really well built wizard. If you don't...well its not pretty. NO ONE should have access to every spell in the game and an archivist can do just that. I don't know about how good they are epic, but probably still on par with the uber brkn roxxor wizzerd.

Edit: Also any sensible DM will do away with the quest buy WBL system acquistion of scrolls in a campaign with an archivist. If this is done, you can keep it more or less balanced, but only through constant vigilance. Remember, boys and girls, only you can prevent game breakage.

namo
2007-10-14, 10:05 PM
- The flavor is very nice IMO.

- It's fairly balanced from low to mid-levels, since gold and availability limit the variety of spells you get in your prayer book, and MAD forces you to choose between having more spells or having higher save DCs.

- At high levels... well, what's been said.

Jack Mann
2007-10-14, 10:35 PM
It's a bit of a balancing act, as a DM. If you're too draconian (I've seen DMs who wanted to limit the class to just the cleric list), the archivist becomes decidedly subpar. If you let them have anything they want, they're greatly overpowered.

I'd usually let them have any cleric or druid spell they want. Paladin, ranger, and domain spells should be available, but subject to DM oversight. If they want it, they have to get your approval. To justify it (not that a DM needs to, but it can make players a bit more amenable), say that those are just harder to find scribed in scrolls or other archivists' prayerbooks.

One thing that's good to do is to look at spells and make sure the archivist learns them at the proper level. Generally, you want to go Cleric>Druid>Domain>Paladin>Ranger. So, if they get a paladin scroll of lesser restoration, they still learn it as a second level spell, even though it's a first level paladins pell. Toss other classes where you want them.

Naturally, don't let them access divine metamagic through prestige classes. But then, you shouldn't let clerics access divine metamagic either.

SilverClawShift
2007-10-14, 10:40 PM
Any full casters are allready intense as far as power goes. Then, since magic wins the game, any caster who can learn spells (more magic) becomes even better. That said, there are a few limiting factors that you can do (and the rules for it all exist in the core, just as for the wizard).

Forcing your prepared casters to actually abide by spellbook rules? Instantly turns their experience into something else. Instead of "I win" it becomes "I win, if you guys can keep me safe while I spend the 18 days needed to study, copy, and prepare the necessary spells for us". A wizard (and an archivist is essentially a divine wizard) who has to keep account of their spellbook, the spells they know (make sure you know explicitly what spells they've learned if you don't trust the player of course), and the amount of gold and time needed to do it?
Honestly? We first played loose and easy with those rules. The wizard wanted to learn a new spell? Boom, it was there. Eventually, we started actually going by all the rules the game puts forth for spellcasters. It makes it a completely different playing experience, and frankly? I find it more fun. Sometimes, your wizard is just going to look at you and say "Guys, I don't have a spell for this right now". or "I can copy the spell we need, assuming I can find it somewhere, and we have the time for me to study and scribe in peace and quiet".

Learning a spell from a scroll or someone elses spellbook?
- A spellcraft check to decipher the spell
- One day studying the spell
- Then another spellcraft check to ready the scribing process (A failed roll? You don't understand the spell, and you can't try again until you gain another rank in spellcraft.)
- 24 hours of writing, regardless of spell level
- A spell takes up 1 page per spell level, and spellbooks do have weight (100 pages too).
- 100 GP per page of writing.

All of the sudden, the spells they learn on level up become very relevant, as those are the only spells they get 'free'.

Archivists have to abide by the same rules for copying spells from other sources. And again, that's assuming you let them find a scroll, spellbook, engraved mausoleum wall, ect, with the spell on it (by the way, having the spell carved somewhere creepy certainly makes things more interesting for the caster... they do need to be there while they decipher and copy it).
You can put a lot of energy into what spells they find, and where. Your players will hate your guts, but in a good way. It's very entertaining, and can add a whole new level to things.

It's not for everyone I'm sure, but even if wizards are god, they're gods who have to spend a crapload of time and gold to do what they do.

Erm, rambling, sorry.

But as a personal houserule our DM uses for archivists? They have to pick their domains at first level, just as clerics do. If they worship a deity, they have access to all of that deities domain spells. If they don't worship a deity, they get to pick 3 domains to copy spells from. That's it. Still handy, but less obscene.

*EDIT*

Uh, yeah, also ,the flavor rocks. When a party member asks if you can do without him for 3 days while he sits in an archaeological dig site copying a spell carved into a tombstone.... yeah.

TheOOB
2007-10-14, 11:12 PM
You just have to be careful what scrolls you let them have. Cleric scrolls are fairly easy to find, not all clerics have scribe scroll, true, but enough do where it's not that hard. Some domain scrolls are sort of easy to find (knowledge, magic, ect), yet others are more difficult (travel, strength, war) because clerics of different aspects are more or less likely to spend the time to learn and craft scrolls.

Druids are not only more reclusive then clerics, but over all less likely to craft scrolls, and more protective of their craft, thus druid scrolls would be more difficult to find. Being semi-common full casters though, it shouldn't be too hard to find a druid scroll, but finding a specific rare spell might take quite some time.

Paladins and Rangers are martial characters, and as such don't craft scrolls much at all, so finding scrolls for those spells should be quite rare.

As for other classes, their scrolls should be rare and unusual, a shugenja's fireball scroll may be a rare and valuable reward to an archivist, and finding am unusual scroll for a rare class may very well be an adventure in itself.

Jack Mann
2007-10-14, 11:36 PM
As for other classes, their scrolls should be rare and unusual, a shugenja's fireball scroll may be a rare and valuable reward to an archivist, and finding am unusual scroll for a rare class may very well be an adventure in itself.

Of course, if they're going on difficult adventures for fireball, there's something wrong.

bugsysservant
2007-10-14, 11:42 PM
Of course, if they're going on difficult adventures for fireball, there's something wrong.

Well, you could just have a bastard for a DM.

DM: "As you cast your final spell, the dragon falls to the ground with a crash, dead. At its master's death a hidden door swings open, now unbound by the magic which held it while the dragon lived. Undoubtably, you now face the reward for your efforts, for which half your party sacrificed their lives."
Archivist: "Sweet, whats in there?"
DM: "Well, there are several chests of coins, and a shugenja scroll of fireball!"
Archivist: ...
Dead Player: "My character died for that! Screw you guys I'm goin' home"

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-15, 12:24 AM
Any way you cut it though, he's a full, prepatory caster, and that makes it essentially automatically broken. Well, depending on your measuring stick.


Why is preparatory casting better than dynamic casting?

Solo
2007-10-15, 12:42 AM
. Avoid warlocks

Huh? Is this because warlocks are...?

Chronos
2007-10-15, 12:50 AM
You just have to be careful what scrolls you let them have.Remember, multiple characters can collaborate on creating a magic item, and only one of them needs the feat, and it doesn't have to be the one who has the spell. So if an archivist is on good terms with a paladin, he can sit down with him to walk the paladin through the process of scribing a scroll of (say) Holy Sword, then immediately copy that scroll into his prayer book.

Jack Mann
2007-10-15, 01:02 AM
Why is preparatory casting better than dynamic casting?

Because preparatory casters get a lot more spells known, typically, which tips the scales in their favor. They need to plan ahead each day a bit more, but they can pull off combos the dynamic casters can only dream of. As well, they're much better at utility, since they can toss a spell into their spellbook "just in case." Add into this the greater ease they have of obtaining scrolls (since they can scribe their own), and they're just generally more useful.


Huh? Is this because warlocks are...?

It's because a warlock can create any item without needing to cast the spell. Thus, a warlock can just scribe out scrolls the archivist wants from any discipline, circumventing the DM's attempts to control access to non-arcane spells.

jameswilliamogle
2007-10-15, 07:58 AM
One trick I've seen is to limit the Archivist to be unable to cast spells until he is the same level as when the original divine caster could cast it, too. Thus, Holy Sword could still be cast from a 4th level slot, but not until the Archivist was 14th level (when a Paladin could cast it). This seemed to work well to prevent lower-level than normal spell abuse.

Also, be wary of the 1-level dip into Sacred Exorcist: getting Turn Undead could break Divine Metamagic, if you allow that cheese (but its only slightly worse than on a Cleric). Persistant Bite of the Wearbear, Divine Power, etc.

It seems easy to really nerf the class with too many restrictions, though, which is why I think a lot of DMs just disallow the class.

Ramza00
2007-10-15, 08:14 AM
One trick I've seen is to limit the Archivist to be unable to cast spells until he is the same level as when the original divine caster could cast it, too. Thus, Holy Sword could still be cast from a 4th level slot, but not until the Archivist was 14th level (when a Paladin could cast it). This seemed to work well to prevent lower-level than normal spell abuse.

Also, be wary of the 1-level dip into Sacred Exorcist: getting Turn Undead could break Divine Metamagic, if you allow that cheese (but its only slightly worse than on a Cleric). Persistant Bite of the Wearbear, Divine Power, etc.

It seems easy to really nerf the class with too many restrictions, though, which is why I think a lot of DMs just disallow the class.

Good suggestion

this is my suggestion


Ways to make sure the Archivist doesn't get completely out of control.

Do not allow them to get turn undead, ever. This is the biggest thing.

Do not allow them to learn spells from the Shungeja class.

Do not allow cheese such as Archivist 18/Chameleon 2 with a floating extra spell which they just then scribe.

Do not allow them access to an artificer(depending what version of faq you are using) or a warlock cohort

Do not allow them ways to effectively get any arcane spell as a divine spell through "tricks" such as Divine Magician or Any Spell.

Do not allow the Archivist Player to be "extremly Neutral or Evil alingment," else you will have tricks such as Charm Person/Dominate Person, now scribe me this scroll.

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Do allow them access to the core spell list of Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin and the NPC class Adept.

Do allow them access to any splat book Cleric spells you would normally allow a Cleric. For the non Cleric splat book spells, be careful make sure you read the spell well before hand to see if it will break your game, do allow them access to some of these spells, but not all. The way I see it, the more a spell deviates from core and enters more obscure splat book the less likely certain people in the game are likely to use/know of the spell. Just because Clerics/Druids have access to all the Cleric/Druid spells in existence does not mean they "know about that spell."

Do allow them access to a few domain spells, which they must acquire through roleplaying means such as quests or befriending powerful clerics of that domain. They must earn this spell roleplaying wise and still pay the cost for the scroll. Domain spells are precious to clerics for they are often one of a kind, they wouldn't scribe such a scroll to a stranger, only to a friend/a person they can trust.

-------------

In effect you are creating a trade off. The more a spell deviates from the traditional cleric list, or the more a spell deviates from core, to common books such as the completes, to the spell compedium, to other splat books, the more work you should require the player/Archivist PC to get such spell. Make them jump through a few hoops, don't give the spell freely, yet at the same time don't try to intentionally trip them and make the game not fun.
and this is the suggestions from the charOp boards 9 months ago
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-754303

Dausuul
2007-10-15, 08:22 AM
I would just not allow archivists. Like so much of Heroes of Horror, the mechanics are poorly designed (see taint cheese) and not worth the headaches. About the only mechanical content I ever use from that book is the Dread Necromancer, and even that could use a cleanup.

Chronos
2007-10-15, 11:06 AM
Another aspect to consider is how common Archivists are in your world. Wizards are fairly common, so they'll frequently collaborate with other wizards, or steal spellbooks from defeated enemy wizards, so all wizards have access to a pretty fair cross-section of the full wizard list. If archivists are just as common as wizards, then they're not going to need to get spells from druids and paladins and adepts, since probably, some other archivist already has. So your archivist can just get his spells from other archivists' prayer books, the same way a wizard gets his from other wizards' spellbooks.

One question I've never seen addressed, is what wands etc. can an archivist use? Can he, for instance, use a wand of Lightning Bolt, even if he hasn't transcribed the Lightning Bolt spell from an Adept yet? By analogy, a wizard can use such a wand before he's transcribed the spell, because it's a spell he could learn. But applying that logic to the Archivist seems to imply that he can use a wand of any spell at all.

Jack Mann
2007-10-15, 11:28 AM
I actually have no real problem with letting archivists have turn undead. You shouldn't be allowing divine metamagic anyway.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-15, 11:53 AM
One question I've never seen addressed, is what wands etc. can an archivist use? Can he, for instance, use a wand of Lightning Bolt, even if he hasn't transcribed the Lightning Bolt spell from an Adept yet? By analogy, a wizard can use such a wand before he's transcribed the spell, because it's a spell he could learn. But applying that logic to the Archivist seems to imply that he can use a wand of any spell at all.

Theoretically, I suppose they can.

Also, in my world, I am creating a guild centered around the gaining of knowledge. The principle members of this guild would be Factotums, Wizards, Bards, and Archivists (since our group has agreed that most PrCs aren't to be used because we feel that there are enough base classes to cover it). Hence me wanting to know about the class. I guess it seems that it can be pretty easy for a DM to control and keep on par with a normal caster just by limiting scroll selection.

Ramza00
2007-10-15, 12:49 PM
I actually have no real problem with letting archivists have turn undead. You shouldn't be allowing divine metamagic anyway.

it isn't just divine metamagic, it is all the divine related feats that are powered by turn attempts. Law Devotion or Retrieve Spell is enough.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-15, 03:28 PM
It's a powerful class particularly with all the various options in game. Consider all the posts about tempering it. It's main weakness is it doesn't get access to most arcane PRCs compared to a wizard.

Divine spell access should be a given in most games.

One single item the Tome of Lore is only 5,500 GP market in MIC. It grants access to ALL arcane spells if the PC is willing to spend a little time to get them in game. Cost to utlizize the Relic is the True Believer Feat or sacrificing a level 5 spell slot. This is a minimal cost once you hit levels 10+ and topping out around level 17 - 20 it is a fraction of suggested PC wealth.

Fluff text says Boccob but in most games that could be substituted with any God of Magic or even Knowledge.

I prefer just giving the class Bardic Knowledge or Psychic Knowledge instead of using the Dark Knowledge mechanics.