Vent: Poor player behavior - how to handle?

[Helliquin]

I needed a place to vent and to ask people how they would handle this.

To get you up to speed, been playing through Lost Mines, in Wave Echo Caves currently.

Party consists of:
- Gloomstalker/monk
- moon druid
- warlock
- assassin rogue
- dwarf battle barbarian
- Lore bard

The issue is with Lore bard. Who, for majority of campaign, has sat on phone, Facebook, whatever, and at the start of each of her turns needs to be prompted - and then asks "Ok so where am I?" or "How many guys left?" or "what can I do?" She usually shoots her crossbow or "rapiers them to the face".

Party as a whole has been very patient with her. I've gone through her spell list and abilities twice, explaining to her how stuff works and what she can do as a Bard. Everyone finally gets sick of it last night and ribs her a bit about paying attention and knowing her character (DM included) - queue her getting a bit salty about it.

Session last night - we are locked in combat (minus the druid who missed the session) with Drow, 2 hob goblins, 4 giant spiders, doppleganger and 4 bugbears (the barbarian initiated the other combat... hes a different story...). We best the Drow, spiders and hobgoblins - Warlock and I are locked in combat with doppleganger and bugbears, dwarf is dead (3 failed saves). Bard runs in to room (needed to spend 2 turns to dash) in order to loot the Drow. Spider staff. Good for druid or gloomstalker/monk. She wont listen to reason and says "Nothing good ever drops for me Im keeping it so I can shoot webs".

I've tried to reason with her the following day, discovering that her Str is 8 (so negative to hit and damage) but still not understanding the whole "Its kinda wasted on you, perhaps think of the good of the party?"

So I guess I have a few issues with the player in question...
- doesnt pay attention
- doesnt learn her characters abilities
- doesnt listen to other people in the group suggestions or attempt to help her
- runs off to loot mid fight
- selfish

How do you deal with stuff like that? Both as DM and as a fellow player.

[JeenLeen]

That sounds rough. I assume this person is a friend (or friend of someone in the group) and thus that personal relationships want to be maintained. If that's not the case, then talking raising concerns with the GM (if you're not the GM) then having a talk, and maybe kicking the person out if they don't want to change their playstyle, seems best.

If I were a player, and wanted this person to play, I'd talk to the GM about my concerns and hope they handle it. Talk privately, and ask if there's anything I could do to help.

If I were the GM, I'd probably talk to some of the players I trust and know can be discrete, to make sure it's bothering them, too. Then I'd talk to the player privately and let them know their general playstyle seems like they're not really enjoying the game. Although I am critical of how they are acting, to keep them from getting defensive I'd ask in an attitude of "how can I help". As in, you mentioned you don't get good loot. What about the X from last game? I thought you'd like that, but you didn't. What sort of gear do you see for your build?

I also tend to have a rule set about loot beforehand, so that it's known one can't just loot and keep it for oneself. Loot, when gathered, is a party resource, so no pocketing a secret find. How it's divided can vary, depending on what the group agrees. I could see letting the player keep the staff for now to have something cool to do, until they get some replacement and then give it to someone who can use it more. Maybe the player is bored with their abilities, and the staff looks like a cool way to fight.
At least, that as an incentive to get the player to act more engaged.

---

I'll also note that the above isn't how I'd like to act, but how I think I should if I were GM. I'd find that sort of distracted behavior very annoying, and being a jerk about loot would probably set me off as a sort of 'last straw' thing. BUT I think it's best to approach it as this friend of mine doesn't seem to be enjoying the game, so what can we do to make it better (albeit without compromising the fun of the other players.)

---edit---

But if they really don't agree to change or listen to others' concerns, I'd ask them to quit playing. Stay friends, if possible, but it's just our playstyles are incompatible.
And if they weren't a friend... I probably wouldn't put forth the effort above.

[Shabbazar]

You need to give us the OOC context for why you put up with this. It doesn't sound like you really need her as a player, you have a decent sized group without her. Unless you give a really good reason, i.e. she's the DM's sister, etc., there's no reason not to have dumped her a couple sessions ago.

[darknite]

It's that pillar of the game where you have to deal with people and why they do what they do. You know this person better than we do. Sounds like you need to have a talk.

[Helliquin]

Person is not a friend, met them when the group started. The player is the wife of the Rogue so might be hard to have one without the other!

The DM does know that it is bothering other players (and has said it bothers him), and he's been quite good about it. We all decided a few sessions in to hold her hand and walk her through stuff, teaching her, giving advice - but behavior hasnt changed, shes not making the effort either. So frustrations came out last night - nobody was angry or anything, more just teasing her gently about her behavior.

It wasnt taken well on her side, queue pouting.

(note: the group are all roughly mid 30's in age)

[Helliquin]

You need to give us the OOC context for why you put up with this. It doesn't sound like you really need her as a player, you have a decent sized group without her. Unless you give a really good reason, i.e. she's the DM's sister, etc., there's no reason not to have dumped her a couple sessions ago.

Small town, limited number of players, shes wife of rogue - I dont think anyone wants to burn a bridge just yet.

If she left, he likely would also.

Would leave ranger, druid, warlock and barbarian.

The barbarian player is a guy with learning disabilities who we are all helping out (hes great for RP due to the zany stuff he does but not great for tactical thinking).

Any DnD is better than No DnD.

[Rukelnikov]

IMO, this is a pretty good opportunity, let her keep the Staff, it doesn't really matter, combat is balanced around party's power level, so its indifferent if everyone has +3 arms and armor or mundane equipment.

However, this is a player that never pays attention, never knows when her turn comes, or where she is in. She clearly doesn't care about the adventure, but now she has shown interest for something in the game world! This is actually good news, letting her keep the staff may result in her being more active in game, and no item in the game can replace that ;)

[Helliquin]

IMO, this is a pretty good opportunity, let her keep the Staff, it doesn't really matter, combat is balanced around party's power level, so its indifferent if everyone has +3 arms and armor or mundane equipment.

However, this is a player that never pays attention, never knows when her turn comes, or where she is in. She clearly doesn't care about the adventure, but now she has shown interest for something in the game world! This is actually good news, letting her keep the staff may result in her being more active in game, and no item in the game can replace that ;)

Good positive way of looking at it. I sure hope it works out that way, guess we'll see next week!

[Shabbazar]

Any DnD is better than No DnD.

Yeahhhhh… Well, that's a judgment call isn't it?



The player is the wife of the Rogue so might be hard to have one without the other!

OK, that complicates things. Can you just ignore her? When her turn comes, if she isn't engaged, just skip on over her?

You really can't get around the "on phone, Facebook, whatever..." This is just rude behavior in a 30-something adult. It's rude behavior by anyone, but you expect to have to train teenagers on this, not an adult. Personally, I don't put up with that anywhere. Anywhere includes a D&D game.

You might lose the husband too, but I would just call her out on it. Of course, I don't subscribe to the bad D&D is better than no D&D philosophy.

[Christew]

I'd say you have two distinct issues here: one with player action and one with character action.

*Player Action* - Not paying attention and not having your actions prepared is unacceptable behavior and is detrimental to table fun (slowing down combat, frustrating other players, etc). It should be handled with a deliberate conversation with the player about what playing entails -- if you don't want to play, don't play. A turn timer can be the stick here if necessary. I'm not going to stop combat in order to explain to you what is happening and what your character can do, so if you are not ready then your turn is skipped. I'm all for teaching new players, but at a certain point you have to take the reins of your character.

*Character Action* - Not assisting in combat (dwarf is dead because bard with healing magic is in another room) and ninja looting mid combat is unacceptable behavior and is detrimental to party cohesion (why do I adventure with you if you let allies die and steal from the party, why shouldn't I kill you and use your resources to buy a resurrect for the dwarf, etc). It should be handled with roleplaying. If my ally has died by my side and I see you loot a magic item while I am still locked in mortal combat, you better believe that we are going to talk about that fact (in character) the very second that combat is over.
*What were you thinking!? Gundrym is dead! You could have healed him, you could have helped me, you could have done something! And did I see you grab something off the Drow while party blood was being spilled!? Drop whatever it was NOW and give me one good reason why I shouldn't name you traitor.*

[SirGraystone]

There's two problem in this, a player easily distracted and not following the game and then there's the loots sharing. Which are different things. Both can be annoying, but since the question was about being selfish and good of the party, I'll ignore the first.

Now if this player has no magical items and the druid has 2 or 3 already, I think it's fair to take the item even if it would be better for the druid, specially if the druid missed the session. She can use spider climb and web from it, even if the melee damage is not best for her.

[Keravath]

Maybe find out why she is playing in the first place since she isn't actually playing if she is spending all her time on the phone or facebook. Is she playing because her spouse is playing and isn't personally very interested?

You could also consider instituting a no device rule while playing except at breaks :) ... might not go over well but if the phone is the primary distraction and everyone gives up their devices while playing then there isn't that much room for complaint and the measure may not feel targeted just at her if everyone is doing it.

You might also want to find out what previous experience she has with RPGs. Is this new for her? Has she played previously? If so, how much? She just may not "get" that D&D is an interactive story telling adventure and "interactive" means that everyone should be participating.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

I noticed a lot of what you listed referred to combat. Is she as disinterested in the rest of the game as well? If it's primarily combat, I can understand. With that many players, turns get a little long. If she wasn't that interested to begin with, waiting around to finally do something isn't going to help.

If she's also not engaged in the exploration and RP pillars, she might just not enjoy the game.

As for the staff, it's pretty good for all casters. Our wizard took it when we went through the mines. Spider climb is useful for anyone at range and web is good early game CC for anyone. You might actually be able to take it as an opportunity to get her more engaged by asking her to use the staff for certain things.

Of course, if she snatches every item you come across, it could be a problem.

[Helliquin]

I noticed a lot of what you listed referred to combat. Is she as disinterested in the rest of the game as well? If it's primarily combat, I can understand. With that many players, turns get a little long. If she wasn't that interested to begin with, waiting around to finally do something isn't going to help.

If she's also not engaged in the exploration and RP pillars, she might just not enjoy the game.

As for the staff, it's pretty good for all casters. Our wizard took it when we went through the mines. Spider climb is useful for anyone at range and web is good early game CC for anyone. You might actually be able to take it as an opportunity to get her more engaged by asking her to use the staff for certain things.

Of course, if she snatches every item you come across, it could be a problem.

The group is quite combat orientated, however that is as a result of the actions of the bard, rogue and barbarian. The attempts at RP or trying to do stuff other than kill stuff were quickly foiled by a rapier to the face or the barb "Sonic the hedgehog" rolling into shins. DM has shifted play style more towards combat now so fewer RP opportunities available. I guess the first warning sign should have been the bard choosing to engage in violence when they could have talked their way out of (or in to) the situation.

Eg: last night the warlock and ranger (who speak goblin) were attempting to convince goblins hold up in a barred room to let us in. The bard (who also spoke goblin) said while we were discussing this tactic "Why bother? just break down the door and lets kill them." and did not participate in the attempt. There were in game conversations of "Your silver tongue is better at this than our clumsy mouths... why dont you try?"

Nahhh... lets rapier them to the face!

[Pex]

I think she's only playing because her husband is playing. If she won't change her behavior she needs to leave the game. She's obviously not interested in it. If the husband leaves too that's a price worth paying, but maybe he can convince her he'll be staying. It's his "poker night", and she can spend that night doing whatever she likes elsewhere with her friends.

[Erys]

How do you deal with stuff like that? Both as DM and as a fellow player.

After a couple of nudges I just ignore the players turn and act like they are not present in the encounter.

IF they want to be in the game people tend to make an effort to know what's going on; if not, don't let them drag the rest of the encounter down.

[Imbalance]

I think she's only playing because her husband is playing. If she won't change her behavior she needs to leave the game. She's obviously not interested in it. If the husband leaves too that's a price worth paying, but maybe he can convince her he'll be staying. It's his "poker night", and she can spend that night doing whatever she likes elsewhere with her friends.

This. She can just as easily play on her phone at home by herself. You could confront her, OR you could sadistically deliver the husband an ultimatum to choose between his wife or his friends. Such is the plot of countless televised situation comedies, and those always get worked out in under half an hour.

[Themrys]

The group is quite combat orientated, however that is as a result of the actions of the bard, rogue and barbarian. The attempts at RP or trying to do stuff other than kill stuff were quickly foiled by a rapier to the face or the barb "Sonic the hedgehog" rolling into shins. DM has shifted play style more towards combat now so fewer RP opportunities available. I guess the first warning sign should have been the bard choosing to engage in violence when they could have talked their way out of (or in to) the situation.

Eg: last night the warlock and ranger (who speak goblin) were attempting to convince goblins hold up in a barred room to let us in. The bard (who also spoke goblin) said while we were discussing this tactic "Why bother? just break down the door and lets kill them." and did not participate in the attempt. There were in game conversations of "Your silver tongue is better at this than our clumsy mouths... why dont you try?"

Nahhh... lets rapier them to the face!

No DnD is better than bad DnD, but I can see why you think you haven't reached that point yet. She's far from the most horrible players I've met, just annoying.

Still, if it is mostly she and her husband who prevent RP from happening, I would tell her to change her behaviour or leave, and consider it an added bonus if her husband leaves as well. I mostly play rpgs for the roleplaying aspect, and would get bored very quickly by a mostly combat-oriented game.

Tell the DM you aren't having fun and would like more RP. And try to split the party so she can go do combat with her husband (and perhaps the barbarian) while the rest of you have a decent conversation.

To me, it is not her lack of paying attention and her greed that's the main problem, but the lack of RP. I don't much care about what wordly wealth my fictional characters amass, but I would hate to have everything be combat oriented because a player whose character class would be perfect at solving problems without violence ... prefers violence.


Outgame problems cannot be solved ingame, but I would still react ingame to her behaviour: "Oh, our bard isn't doing anything! I am sure she is composing a new song in her head. Let's not interrupt her important thoughts! We can manage without her."

[Zhorn]

Phone ban.

All players and DM now must leave their pone on the side table.

Honestly there are going to be far too many details to know about your group to have the perfect solution, but if I had any players who spent so much time distracted and not paying attention, I'd look at removing the distraction first.
If there's an emergency, the phone would be rung and they can answer it, but everything else is out-of-sight-out-of-mind until the session is over.
Their choice is either engage in the activity they have at the table, or not be in the game to engage in their phone activities.

Social media addiction is a real issue these days, and giving some people a window where they have to confront that impulse can be rather awakening. I was in a game last year with a player that was on their phone constantly. Phone ban came in, then they started to understand just how much they had previously been missing being hypnotised by their screen. They still needed to be couched for a bit on how to run their character, but outside of game they started to find other ways to have small 'unplugged' moments to keep their social media habits in check.

[strangebloke]

The only two answers people on this site give are

"Have a talk"
"Kick her"

There's a reason for that. Ooc problems require ooc solutions. Either this person can be talked to or she can't.

If you want to talk, take this approach:

"You having fun?"

If she says "no," good, maybe they're something you can resolve.

If she says "yah," then you can push a little more.

"It just seems like you're not having fun, like you're really unhappy and bored in the game, like you feel your character is weak."

That last bolded part? That's the culprit, I would bet money on it. Bards attract players who like flashy moves, but low level bards are not flashy at all. Low damage, low AC, low HP, and spells that make them best as support characters. Her comment that she needs the magic item because"nothing good ever drops for her" indicates to me that she thinks she needs the item to keep up.

Anyway, it's a way to get your point across without being an ass. Make them insist several times that they really truly are having fun. Mention that you thought they seemed bored because they were on their phone a lot.

[Spo]

Don't take her staff. Take her phone.

If need be, implement a no electronics rule at the table and go old school with paper.

[Tetrasodium]

[
Boot them
QUOTE=Helliquin;24158361]I needed a place to vent and to ask people how they would handle this.

To get you up to speed, been playing through Lost Mines, in Wave Echo Caves currently.

Party consists of:
- Gloomstalker/monk
- moon druid
- warlock
- assassin rogue
- dwarf battle barbarian
- Lore bard

The issue is with Lore bard. Who, for majority of campaign, has sat on phone, Facebook, whatever, and at the start of each of her turns needs to be prompted - and then asks "Ok so where am I?" or "How many guys left?" or "what can I do?" She usually shoots her crossbow or "rapiers them to the face".

Party as a whole has been very patient with her. I've gone through her spell list and abilities twice, explaining to her how stuff works and what she can do as a Bard. Everyone finally gets sick of it last night and ribs her a bit about paying attention and knowing her character (DM included) - queue her getting a bit salty about it.

Session last night - we are locked in combat (minus the druid who missed the session) with Drow, 2 hob goblins, 4 giant spiders, doppleganger and 4 bugbears (the barbarian initiated the other combat... hes a different story...). We best the Drow, spiders and hobgoblins - Warlock and I are locked in combat with doppleganger and bugbears, dwarf is dead (3 failed saves). Bard runs in to room (needed to spend 2 turns to dash) in order to loot the Drow. Spider staff. Good for druid or gloomstalker/monk. She wont listen to reason and says "Nothing good ever drops for me Im keeping it so I can shoot webs".

I've tried to reason with her the following day, discovering that her Str is 8 (so negative to hit and damage) but still not understanding the whole "Its kinda wasted on you, perhaps think of the good of the party?"

So I guess I have a few issues with the player in question...
- doesnt pay attention
- doesnt learn her characters abilities
- doesnt listen to other people in the group suggestions or attempt to help her
- runs off to loot mid fight
- selfish

How do you deal with stuff like that? Both as DM and as a fellow player.[/QUOTE]

[Kane0]

Have you spoken to the rogue player?

[Vorpalchicken]

The Bard can't shoot webs since "With staff in hand may use an action to cast a spell from staff with no components if the spell is on your class spell list." And Web is not on the Bard list. (Neither is Spider Climb.)

[Helliquin]

The Bard can't shoot webs since "With staff in hand may use an action to cast a spell from staff with no components if the spell is on your class spell list." And Web is not on the Bard list. (Neither is Spider Climb.)

Whaaat? I have read magic item description, so took her word for it (DM gave her a description card).

Might check that...

[Keravath]

Whaaat? I have read magic item description, so took her word for it (DM gave her a description card).

Might check that...

Here is the text on the spider staff:

"SPIDER STAFF
The top of this black, adamantine staff is shaped like a spider. The staff weighs 6 pounds. You must be attuned to the staff to gain its benefits and cast its spells. The staff can be wielded as a quarterstaff. It deals 1d6 extra poison damage on a hit when used to make a weapon attack. The staff has 10 charges, which are used to fuel the spells within it. With the staff in hand, you can use your action to cast one of the following spells from the staff if the spell is on your class's spell list: spider climb (1 charge) or web (2 charges, spell save DC 15). No components are required.
The staff regains 1d6 + 4 expended charges each day at dusk. If you expend the staff's last charge, roll a d20. On a 1, the staff crumbles to dust and is destroyed."

So a bard with 8 strength can't hit effectively with the staff when used as a weapon and can't cast spells with it either since neither of the spells are on the bard spell list. If she insists on keeping it (and someone else in the party can actually use it) then she is just being intentionally obstructive and irritating ... time to have a serious ooc chat about expectations for people who play in the game.

[Slipperychicken]

So I guess I have a few issues with the player in question...
- doesnt pay attention
- doesnt learn her characters abilities
- doesnt listen to other people in the group suggestions or attempt to help her
- runs off to loot mid fight
- selfish

How do you deal with stuff like that? Both as DM and as a fellow player.

I'd explain roleplaying etiquette to her, and that her behavior is causing distress to the group in real life. Also stop reinforcing her bad behavior with positive reactions (laughing, smiling, joking, etc). Each time she misbehaves, briefly pause the game to ask about what she's trying to accomplish, why her proposed action is bad for the real-life group dynamic, and what she might do instead (i.e. should the group have a better loot-splitting practice, could she ask differently for what she wants, etc). Treat this like you're teaching game-rules to her, because roleplaying etiquette is just the unwritten rules of roleplaying. Use social cues and inspiration to reward/reinforce players for behaving properly or remembering game-rules.

Also, new rules:

You can only use an ability if you know at least the basic game rules for it. Otherwise your character has a mental slip and can't recall it for this turn, until you remember it OOC.
If you weren't paying attention or you take too long to choose an action, then your character 'hesitates' or 'dithers', and their actions are wasted. Don't make a hard rule with a timer (you can make exceptions for extremely complicated scenarios or very new players), but generally give players about 30-60 seconds to decide on what they're doing. My group's done it multiple times and it works like a charm.