Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

[samcifer]

Just got a totally evil idea for how best to counter our dm who loves to give his monsters high damage and to-hit bonuses... A level 10 character who is 5 each of bear totem barbarian and swashbuckler rogue.

Stats: STR 20 (18 + 2 from ASI), DEX 18 (16 + 2 from racial, CON: 16, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 16 (15 + 1 from racial). AC: 19 (half-plate + a shield), Speed: 40', Initiative: 12 (4 DEX + 3 CHA from swashbuckler + 5 from Alert feat) HP: 95, Weapon: +1 rapier for +10 to-hit.

Tabaxi would grant me 80' feet of movement in a turn and 160' if I use CA to dash. Bear totem barb would already cut all but psychic dmg to me in half (useful when the dm is rolling 7d8 on a hit with his monsters), but Uncanny Dodge would let me reduce it to a quarter of he does 30+ dmg after resistance is applied (seriously, he does that kind of damage often enough for this to be necessary to have).

With +5 STR + proficiency and advantage while raging, I can easily counter the frequent grapple checks against monsters (another favorite tactic of this dm), I think I'd be doing much better on survivability against the deadly++ level of difficulty this dm tends to favor.

[CTurbo]

Building a character to "defeat" the DM is not going to end well for you. Your character will have a weakness(Wis saves?), and any good DM will find it and now how to use it against you.

Over-inflated stats lead players feeling like they are stronger, but your DM has also powered up the monsters to match you.

Besting the DM is pretty much impossible, but if you REALLY want to make it as hard on them as possible for some reason just build a jack of all trades character with no glaring weaknesses.

Paladins and Bards are known for making life difficult on the DM. I'd start there.

[Dork_Forge]

Just got a totally evil idea for how best to counter our dm who loves to give his monsters high damage and to-hit bonuses... A level 10 character who is 5 each of bear totem barbarian and swashbuckler rogue.

Stats: STR 20 (18 + 2 from ASI), DEX 18 (16 + 2 from racial, CON: 16, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 16 (15 + 1 from racial). AC: 19 (half-plate + a shield), Speed: 40', Initiative: 12 (4 DEX + 3 CHA from swashbuckler + 5 from Alert feat) HP: 95, Weapon: +1 rapier for +10 to-hit.

Tabaxi would grant me 80' feet of movement in a turn and 160' if I use CA to dash. Bear totem barb would already cut all but psychic dmg to me in half (useful when the dm is rolling 7d8 on a hit with his monsters), but Uncanny Dodge would let me reduce it to a quarter of he does 30+ dmg after resistance is applied (seriously, he does that kind of damage often enough for this to be necessary to have).

With +5 STR + proficiency and advantage while raging, I can easily counter the frequent grapple checks against monsters (another favorite tactic of this dm), I think I'd be doing much better on survivability against the deadly++ level of difficulty this dm tends to favor.

About your specific build, you may as well put one of your experitse into Athletics if grappling is a common problem you come up against. Why have you gone for a Tabaxi on this build?

Half plate doesn't give you anyhting but disadvantage on stealth checks, your unarmored defense would be the same AC.

Has surprise been an issue before? Alert is a good feat but Tough would go a long way to make up for the Rogue levels (iirc you played a straight barbarian in this campaign and died, lower relative health than that character seems to point to the same end).

[bid]

Besting the DM is pretty much impossible, but if you REALLY want to make it as hard on them as possible for some reason just build a jack of all trades character with no glaring weaknesses.
No, you just need to run faster than the other characters. This way, the DM has to target them and not you.

[samcifer]

Building a character to "defeat" the DM is not going to end well for you. Your character will have a weakness(Wis saves?), and any good DM will find it and now how to use it against you.

Over-inflated stats lead players feeling like they are stronger, but your DM has also powered up the monsters to match you.

Besting the DM is pretty much impossible, but if you REALLY want to make it as hard on them as possible for some reason just build a jack of all trades character with no glaring weaknesses.

Paladins and Bards are known for making life difficult on the DM. I'd start there.

Actually, in this homebrewed campaign, we all have staring stats (before racial bonuses) of 18, 16, 16, 15, 14, and 12.

Admittedly this is a bit tongue-in-cheek in regards to opposing the dm as such, but this particular dm tends to increase the hp, to-hit bonuses and dmg of the monsters he uses. In our session two weeks ago he had a fae queen character as a random encounter against us as we were trying to leave the land we were in after 2 battles without a rest. She had what I can only describe as a frost damage version the Meteor Swarm spell he had her use against our lv. 10 characters. The only reason we survived was because one of us had a deux ex machine magical object (a seed) that turned into a tree at her feet and killed her in a single hit while her black knight companion was banished thanks to a magic sword another of our characters had, letting us gang up on him after killing the queen while he was stranded in another dimension.

Survivability is a huge issue for players against this particular dm, so I love the idea of using Uncanny Dodge while raging for a quarter of 60+ damage from the attack from an over-powered npc character. Getting up to 160' of movement during a single turn (40' from lv. 5 barb + Canny Action to bonus action dodge + double movement speed for a turn thanks to tabaxi racial power) with a free equivalent of the disengage action from anyone I attack thanks to swashbuckler.

I'd considered a barb/rogue build before, but tabaxi just makes it an even more fun character to play. I haven't played this character yet, but if my firbolg light cleric bites the big one (very likely with this guy as our dm), I'll give this build a try...

...Then start locking my bedroom door when going to sleep each night after a session where I use this character and tactics as the dm is one of my roommates. :P

And don't feel too bad for the dm as (see my previous threads where I talk about him in more detail, or rather, his play-style as dm) he's a bit of a jerk. LOL

[Fable Wright]

Man, I thought this was a DM asking how to make the character feel useful in combat. :smallconfused:

Um. Enjoy, I guess? Your sneak attack can't apply to anything your rage applies to, you've got half the Expertise of a rogue of your level, your one schtick is to be the target of save or dies instead of meat attacks, and your initiative boost means that your wizard friend is going to have issues landing his Hypnotic Pattern without friendly fire.

[samcifer]

Man, I thought this was a DM asking how to make the character feel useful in combat. :smallconfused:

Um. Enjoy, I guess? Your sneak attack can't apply to anything your rage applies to, you've got half the Expertise of a rogue of your level, your one schtick is to be the target of save or dies instead of meat attacks, and your initiative boost means that your wizard friend is going to have issues landing his Hypnotic Pattern without friendly fire.

SA only needs the weapon to be a finesse weapon, but doesn't require you to use DEX as your attack stat. Barbarians have access to rapiers and whips and can use STR for attacking with tm to get both the rage damage and reckless attacking as well as the SA damage on a hit thanks to the swashbuckler sub-class feature. I was looking for a class that had extra attack to combine with the rogue class and had been eying ranger (see my thread on this from last week: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?598185-Best-pairing-on-a-lv-10-character-with-rogue-and-another-multi-attack-class ), but taking half damage from all attacks is very appealing and having advantage on STR and DEX saves as well as initiative is just icing on the proverbial cake. There's no wizard in our group, the closest are a war cleric and a whispers bard who only cast when not doing melee attacks.

[Contrast]

There's no wizard in our group, the closest are a war cleric and a whispers bard who only cast when not doing melee attacks.

Wait sorry you have a whispers bard in your party who likes to hang out in melee?

I have to ask how they're surviving all the stuff you describe your DM throwing about.

[samcifer]

Wait sorry you have a whispers bard in your party who likes to hang out in melee?

I have to ask how they're surviving all the stuff you describe your DM throwing about.

He doesn't get targeted too often, really, and he's not ALWAYS in melee (sorry for the confusion on that).

[Benny89]

If you want to make your DM life very hard just make Vengeance/Divine Soul Sorcadin. While this build fully blooms on level 11 (3rd level spells), it's broken as soon as you start leveling Sorcerer:

1. Great AC
2. Insane saves for everything
3. With 20 Cha - high spell DC + very strong social skills
4. Great offense with Smites, extra attack, hunter's mark etc, quicken BB
5. Huge Nova dmg vs bosses.
6. Huge defenses with Shield, Absorb Elements, Aura etc.
7. Great AOE damage with Spirit Guardians
8. Great yoyo healing with Healing Word
9. Counter spell + enchance ability: CHA = no casting for enemy casters.
10. Subtle metamagic- can't be counter-spelled.
11. Twin Haste for your melee friends in party.
12. Access to Revivify, Holy Weapon, Heal and so on.

Generally if you are looking for build with almost no weakness- here it is. And trying to counter that build pretty much means either desperate moves or killing rest of the party just to scratch this one.

[CTurbo]

Nothing wrong with having a tough DM as long as he's consistent. I'm a pretty tough DM when I'm playing with experienced players. It's the DM's job to make it challenging. I don't understand what running is going to accomplish. I played with a player in a very tough campaign and this guy's character would run away every time things got tough. After a while, everybody in the party had rolled up at LEAST 2 additional characters after their first except this guy who still had his first character and his character was the only thing connecting the current group to the beginning of the story/campaign. Needless to say we were all getting sick of him running so we all decided his character was notorious throughout the lands for getting characters killed and couldn't be trusted. (yes we spoke to him outside the game)


Anyway, it doesn't fit a Barbarian to run. You're going to be dropping your limited rages all the time by running. That being said, Barbarian/Rogue can be great and yes Uncanny Dodge is strong. If you really want to play a highly Mobile character I'd play a Tabaxi Monk. You wouldn't even need weapons or armor. Rogue combines well with Monk too. A Tabaxi Scout 5/Monk 5 would be awesome. Every time an enemy ends it's turn next to you, you can move away half your speed which would be like 25ft. You could move 45ft, Dash with your action 45ft, and then Dash with your bonus action 45ft more. Of course a Tabaxi can double that when needed. This setup is even better with an Aarakocra as you can just fly away from an enemy when they end their turn nest to you.

[bid]

I played with a player in a very tough campaign and this guy's character would run away every time things got tough.
I hope you called him Sir Robin.:smallbiggrin:

[samcifer]

I actually DID play a vengenance pali / DS sorc with a glaive and GWM and PM. Did tons of damage with that character. :)

Monk/rogue WAS my first idea, but unless I stick with a short sword, kensei would seem to be the only sub-class I could go with and the build would need to be monk 6 / rogue 4 to start as the unarmed strikes could be resisted. I'd likely go rogue to 5, then a level of barbarian for rage resistance (maybe to lv. 3 for bear totem at most), then focus on monk from there.

[Lunali]

No, you just need to run faster than the other characters. This way, the DM has to target them and not you.

Good news, tabaxi kensei monk meets both requirements, no glaring weaknesses and you get to outrun everyone ever.

[CTurbo]

What's the big deal using a shortsword? Kensei Monk with a longsword is only +1 damage gain over shortsword, dagger, or unarmed strike with 5 levels of Monk

If I played a Tabaxi Monk I wouldn't use weapons. I like the flavor of using Tabaxi's claws as unarmed strikes. Should work with sneak attack damage as Martial Arts makes Unarmed Strikes Finesse weapons.

I like Open Hand, but if you think you'll ever make 11 levels of Monk, Long Death would be awesome.

[Daghoulish]

What's the big deal using a shortsword? Kensei Monk with a longsword is only +1 damage gain over shortsword, dagger, or unarmed strike with 5 levels of Monk

If I played a Tabaxi Monk I wouldn't use weapons. I like the flavor of using Tabaxi's claws as unarmed strikes. Should work with sneak attack damage as Martial Arts makes Unarmed Strikes Finesse weapons.

I like Open Hand, but if you think you'll ever make 11 levels of Monk, Long Death would be awesome.

That actually doesn't work. Martial arts merely lets you use dex for your unarmed strikes, it doesn't give them the finesse property. This has been brought up quite a few times in sage advice, I would let it happen because it would be fun but by raw it doesn't work.

[samcifer]

That actually doesn't work. Martial arts merely lets you use dex for your unarmed strikes, it doesn't give them the finesse property. This has been brought up quite a few times in sage advice, I would let it happen because it would be fun but by raw it doesn't work.

Yeah, I doubt my dm would allow it because, funny enough, a similar issue came up during the last wednesday session. Our moon druid with a level of monk asked if, while in the form of a giant eagle, if he could make a beak attack then follow with an unarmed strike and the dm thought it over and ruled no because the beak was considered a natural weapon, not an unarmed attack.

[CTurbo]

That actually doesn't work. Martial arts merely lets you use dex for your unarmed strikes, it doesn't give them the finesse property. This has been brought up quite a few times in sage advice, I would let it happen because it would be fun but by raw it doesn't work.


You know I thought that sounded odd so I'm not surprised it's wrong. I got it from this website I tend to use when trying to remember specific class abilities. http://gdnd.wikidot.com/coreclass:monk

[bid]

You know I thought that sounded odd so I'm not surprised it's wrong. I got it from this website I tend to use when trying to remember specific class abilities. http://gdnd.wikidot.com/coreclass:monk
It's a wiki, anyone should be able to fix it.
Well, at least those who made an account there.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If you must "beat" your DM, you're playing the wrong game.

Let him keep killing your characters, don't heal, and don't put any effort into the game... Just go through the motions for a session or two without doing anything cool.

Then ask if he wants to DM or play a PC because he seems to not want to actually DM.

The best way to "beat" a DM that does this sort of thing is to not fight said DM and show how boring the game is for the players.

Edit: Spell correct has betrayed me.

[samcifer]

If you must "beat" your DM, you're playing the wrong game.

Let him keep killing your characters, don't heal, and don't put any effort into the game... Just go through the motions for a session or two without doing anything cool.

Then ask if he wants to DM or play a PC because he seems to not want to actually DM.

The best way to "beat" a DM that does this sort of thing is to not fight said DM and show how boring the game is for the players.

Edit: Spell correct has betrayed me.

It's just that this dm (the only one I have to play with) tends to make his monsters VERY over-powered and it seems as if at least one player makes at least one death save every other battle. Take our ratling wild magic sorcerer for example. Granted, his player built him very poorly with low AC (14 or 15, I think) and HP as he has only 60hp at lv. 12, but he ended up dropping to 0hp 4 times during our last session.

Granted, everyone else just shrugs and goes with it, but as a writer who becomes emotionally invested in his characters, I hate seeing them die. I don't want to keep re-making the same character again and again in the same campaign, so anything that can increase my survivability is something I want for my character(s).

Besides, if I'd gone rogue instead of fighter on my half-orc bear totem barb / battlemaster fighter a ways back in that same campaign, I might have enjoyed playing that character more. Seriously, PRecision was the only bm ability I ever got to make use of because foes would either save against a trip or frightening, or be immune to it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It's just that this dm (the only one I have to play with) tends to make his monsters VERY over-powered and it seems as if at least one player makes at least one death save every other battle. Take our ratling wild magic sorcerer for example. Granted, his player built him very poorly with low AC (14 or 15, I think) and HP as he has only 60hp at lv. 12, but he ended up dropping to 0hp 4 times during our last session.

Granted, everyone else just shrugs and goes with it, but as a writer who becomes emotionally invested in his characters, I hate seeing them die. I don't want to keep re-making the same character again and again in the same campaign, so anything that can increase my survivability is something I want for my character(s).

Besides, if I'd gone rogue instead of fighter on my half-orc bear totem barb / battlemaster fighter a ways back in that same campaign, I might have enjoyed playing that character more. Seriously, PRecision was the only bm ability I ever got to make use of because foes would either save against a trip or frightening, or be immune to it.

Let the DM TPK y'all.

If you just keep going with this, he's going to DM for others and spread this antagonistic play style to more people.

You can't "beat" the DM. Even if you destroy the encounter, you aren't beating the DM.

Edit

Death isn't the end to the character, it's the end to that particular story. You can always bring back the character in another game.

[samcifer]

Let the DM TPK y'all.

If you just keep going with this, he's going to DM for others and spread this antagonistic play style to more people.

You can't "beat" the DM. Even if you destroy the encounter, you aren't beating the DM.

TBH, it's not really about "beating the dm", but rather having a slightly higher chance to surviving longer. I just want to play a character who will last more than two sessions or so. :P

[CTurbo]

As usual, the best course of action is to talk to the DM out of game and express your concerns

[SpawnOfMorbo]

As usual, the best course of action is to talk to the DM out of game and express your concerns

I always assume this has already happened.

I have too much faith in people, sometimes.

[CTurbo]

I think would I would do in this situation is just make a bunch of oddball but still effective characters especially with those stats.

Gnome Barbarian? check
Goblin Monk? check
Half-Orc Sorcerer? Sure why not
Dwarf Bard? heck yeah
Orc Wizard? mhm
Gnome Conquest Paladin? yup
Beastmaster Ranger? Might as well
Beastmaster Ranger/Chain Pact Warlock? Screw the action economy!

[samcifer]

After looking over various other classes, I still feel that barbarian + rogue is the way to go over another subclass. Let's look at what 5 of each class would give us:

Fighter: Access to all weapons and armor except for heavy unless I took this class first which would hurt my selection of rogue-focused skills, Second Wind for 6 to 15 pts. of healing as a once per rest bonus action, Action Surge (tempting to mc into later), and extra attack, and perhaps an extra early ASI/feat if I were to go to 6. Likely subclasses would be Eldritch Knight for a bit of spellcasting such as the Shield Spell or Samurai for one round of advantage to all attack rolls.

Monk: Heavy dependence on DEX + WIS, one or 2 bonus action attacks that I couldn't use to get SA damage, +15 ft. of movement per turn, Dodge as a bonus action with a limited number of uses, Deflect Missiles (which comes up rarely as the dm mostly uses melee with lots of movement or caster characters), Slow Fall (a rather situational ability that might have been used all of 2 times in the two and a half years I've been playing with this group) and Stunning Strike which has a limited number of uses and targets th worst stat to target. Subclasses would be limited to Open Hand or Kensei, the first of which doesn't work well with SA in my mind as it all happens AFTER you use your action to attack, and Kensei which is kind of bleah.

Ranger: One skill, A fighting style (probably Dueling, Twin Weapon Fighting which may require the Dual Wielding feat as well, or Defense), Base abilities that are very situational and too difficult to use in a campaign with varied terrain and enemies, a small bit of spellcasting, and most likely the gloom Stalker sub-class that gives up to +5 initiative, An okay improvement to Darkvision, and both +10 ft. of movement and an extra attack with an extra +1d8 of damage that only works for the first turn.

Barbarian: +2 damage on every attack so long as I use STR to attack (so built-in Dueling fighting style), Advantage on STR checks and saves, resistance to all physical damage (+ all others but psychic with bear totem), {all at 3 times per long rest}, +10 ft. of movement, Advantage on DEX saves vs. 'seeable' traps/effects, Advantage to all attacks as a free action so long as I use STR to attack, the highest HP I could get vs. the other options.



So to me it looks as if barbarian gives me more features and benefits that I would use much more often and be able to use on ANY of my turns instead of only the first one and those benefits and features don't require the use of a limited resource like Ki. As for spellcasting, I don't see it as much of a loss. If I want spell slots later, I'd likely go a few levels in paladin for smite damage. Barb gives me extra damage, a guaranteed way to get advantage on attack rolls, higher HP, non-situational extra movement, and most importantly a way to take less damage consistently from all but psychic attacks.

It just feels like a better way to go imo.

[CTurbo]

After looking over various other classes, I still feel that barbarian + rogue is the way to go over another subclass. Let's look at what 5 of each class would give us:

Fighter: Access to all weapons and armor except for heavy unless I took this class first which would hurt my selection of rogue-focused skills, Second Wind for 6 to 15 pts. of healing as a once per rest bonus action, Action Surge (tempting to mc into later), and extra attack, and perhaps an extra early ASI/feat if I were to go to 6. Likely subclasses would be Eldritch Knight for a bit of spellcasting such as the Shield Spell or Samurai for one round of advantage to all attack rolls.

Monk: Heavy dependence on DEX + WIS, one or 2 bonus action attacks that I couldn't use to get SA damage, +15 ft. of movement per turn, Dodge as a bonus action with a limited number of uses, Deflect Missiles (which comes up rarely as the dm mostly uses melee with lots of movement or caster characters), Slow Fall (a rather situational ability that might have been used all of 2 times in the two and a half years I've been playing with this group) and Stunning Strike which has a limited number of uses and targets th worst stat to target. Subclasses would be limited to Open Hand or Kensei, the first of which doesn't work well with SA in my mind as it all happens AFTER you use your action to attack, and Kensei which is kind of bleah.

Ranger: One skill, A fighting style (probably Dueling, Twin Weapon Fighting which may require the Dual Wielding feat as well, or Defense), Base abilities that are very situational and too difficult to use in a campaign with varied terrain and enemies, a small bit of spellcasting, and most likely the gloom Stalker sub-class that gives up to +5 initiative, An okay improvement to Darkvision, and both +10 ft. of movement and an extra attack with an extra +1d8 of damage that only works for the first turn.

Barbarian: +2 damage on every attack so long as I use STR to attack (so built-in Dueling fighting style), Advantage on STR checks and saves, resistance to all physical damage (+ all others but psychic with bear totem), {all at 3 times per long rest}, +10 ft. of movement, Advantage on DEX saves vs. 'seeable' traps/effects, Advantage to all attacks as a free action so long as I use STR to attack, the highest HP I could get vs. the other options.



So to me it looks as if barbarian gives me more features and benefits that I would use much more often and be able to use on ANY of my turns instead of only the first one and those benefits and features don't require the use of a limited resource like Ki. As for spellcasting, I don't see it as much of a loss. If I want spell slots later, I'd likely go a few levels in paladin for smite damage. Barb gives me extra damage, a guaranteed way to get advantage on attack rolls, higher HP, non-situational extra movement, and most importantly a way to take less damage consistently from all but psychic attacks.

It just feels like a better way to go imo.



Just keep in mind that most of the Barbarian's feature's require raging to work, and at Barbarian 5, you'll only have 3 rages per day. Originally you were building this to be highly mobile to be able to get away which means dropping rage frequently. I don't know how your DM handles rests, but unless he allows plenty of long rests, this build could backfire on you.



While 5 levels of Fighter may be boring, all features are always on. Swashbucklers are great candidates for the TWF style. Battlemasters have limited resources, but reset after short rests.

Monk's features are also always on and while limited, reset after short rests. Again, the importance of this depends on your DM. Stunning Strike is especially strong against DM amplified enemies. Also, if you happen to miss with your 2 main attacks, there is no reason why you couldn't attack with a dagger in your off hand like every other class can in order to get sneak damage. Don't discount Long Death Monk as temp hit points on a kill is strong in 5e and a level 11 Long Death Monk is very very very very VERY hard to kill if you were ever to get there.

A Gloom Stalker Ranger/Rogue 5 makes a very good melee character, but I prefer this option for an Archer. Either way don't discount the fact that the Gloom Stalker's extra attack and movement is ONLY first round because you're still pretty much guaranteed to use it every encounter.


I say consider a Swashbuckler/Paladin. You have the stats to pull it off and you could still be a Tabaxi. Once you get to level 11 and are Rogue 5/Paladin 6, this would arguably be a tougher character than Rogue/Barbarian. Even moreso if you were a Rogue 5/Ancients Paladin 7. Paladins are especially powerful in campaigns with frequent long rests. Swashbucklers pair perfectly with Paladins too.

Swash/Devotion are awesome getting to add Cha to hit when you're fighting the BBEG
Swash/Vengeance are awesome getting advantage against the BBEG. Consider Half-Elf + Elven Accuracy for this
Swash/Ancients are awesome getting resistance to spell damage(always on all the time) combined with Uncanny Dodge.

Paladins make the whole party better too



Consider a Swashbuckler/Swords Bard for a character that would be really good at everything and have no glaring weakness. THIS is the kind of character that makes life hell on a DM(besides Paladins)


Anyway, Barbarian/Rogues are really good and I'm sure your idea will be fine. Just trying to show you other options.


Honestly I would consider a straight Long Death Monk assuming you'd hit level 11.




How does your DM do with rests? Do you get plenty of Long Rests? I've played with DMs that pretty much have 1 big encounter and then rest, and then I've played with DMs where Long Rests were few and far between. Just keep in mind that Paladins are kings of the 5 minute adventuring day. If you DM is one big fight and then long rest, go Paladin/Barbarian for maximum survivability. If your DM doesn't give many long rests, consider Monk or Battlemaster Fighter to go along with Rogue.

[samcifer]

Just keep in mind that most of the Barbarian's feature's require raging to work, and at Barbarian 5, you'll only have 3 rages per day. Originally you were building this to be highly mobile to be able to get away which means dropping rage frequently. I don't know how your DM handles rests, but unless he allows plenty of long rests, this build could backfire on you.



While 5 levels of Fighter may be boring, all features are always on. Swashbucklers are great candidates for the TWF style. Battlemasters have limited resources, but reset after short rests.

Monk's features are also always on and while limited, reset after short rests. Again, the importance of this depends on your DM. Stunning Strike is especially strong against DM amplified enemies. Also, if you happen to miss with your 2 main attacks, there is no reason why you couldn't attack with a dagger in your off hand like every other class can in order to get sneak damage. Don't discount Long Death Monk as temp hit points on a kill is strong in 5e and a level 11 Long Death Monk is very very very very VERY hard to kill if you were ever to get there.

A Gloom Stalker Ranger/Rogue 5 makes a very good melee character, but I prefer this option for an Archer. Either way don't discount the fact that the Gloom Stalker's extra attack and movement is ONLY first round because you're still pretty much guaranteed to use it every encounter.


I say consider a Swashbuckler/Paladin. You have the stats to pull it off and you could still be a Tabaxi. Once you get to level 11 and are Rogue 5/Paladin 6, this would arguably be a tougher character than Rogue/Barbarian. Even moreso if you were a Rogue 5/Ancients Paladin 7. Paladins are especially powerful in campaigns with frequent long rests. Swashbucklers pair perfectly with Paladins too.

Swash/Devotion are awesome getting to add Cha to hit when you're fighting the BBEG
Swash/Vengeance are awesome getting advantage against the BBEG. Consider Half-Elf + Elven Accuracy for this
Swash/Ancients are awesome getting resistance to spell damage(always on all the time) combined with Uncanny Dodge.

Paladins make the whole party better too



Consider a Swashbuckler/Swords Bard for a character that would be really good at everything and have no glaring weakness. THIS is the kind of character that makes life hell on a DM(besides Paladins)


Anyway, Barbarian/Rogues are really good and I'm sure your idea will be fine. Just trying to show you other options.


Honestly I would consider a straight Long Death Monk assuming you'd hit level 11.




How does your DM do with rests? Do you get plenty of Long Rests? I've played with DMs that pretty much have 1 big encounter and then rest, and then I've played with DMs where Long Rests were few and far between. Just keep in mind that Paladins are kings of the 5 minute adventuring day. If you DM is one big fight and then long rest, go Paladin/Barbarian for maximum survivability. If your DM doesn't give many long rests, consider Monk or Battlemaster Fighter to go along with Rogue.

For rests, it varies. He recently had us get attacked by pixies with a grapple attack and a bit that caused a loss in max hp until our next long rest equal to the damage we took. We then had to go encounter a dragon without a rest, but the bard 'took one for the team' by striking a bargain with the dragon who now has a piece of it's soul in him and is manipulating him subtly and bodes ill for the future. Then right after that encounter we had to fight a fae queen and a her dark knight lackey before we could get another rest in.

the issue with monks for me is dependence on Ki. I COULD take some paladin levels later on as we tend to level up every 2 or 3 weeks of this weekly campaign and there's still a long way left to go in the story of it.

My plan as a barb/rogue is to stick and run, then more stick and run via dashing as a bonus action with Swashbuckler granting me the equivalent of a free disengage action if I move carefully. I'd make sure to attack at least once per turn to keep rage going and using reckless attack for an easier time to hit and rage resistance with uncanny dodge to make the really big damaging hits a quarter of their full damage, increasing my survivability.

I've considered pally-rogue, but it takes more damage than I'd like, so I'd still want at least 1 level of barb if not 4 for the asi/feat.

IF I were to add any levels of fighter, I'd only go 2 for Action Surge and only after going 5 in a different class for the extra attack. To me, fighter is just such a boring and limited class to play and the few things it offers are all combat-focused.

I just really like the flavor of a pc who is graceful, dexterous and agile enough to steal people blind and sneak around until he goes into a blinding rage, shouts 'screw it!" and starts cracking heads. The unbridled fury and savagery juxtaposed with stealth, elegance and finesse just really sounds like a fun either/or kind of concept to me. :)

[Petrocorus]

I second the peoples who said you should rather talk to the DM about this issue.



You know I thought that sounded odd so I'm not surprised it's wrong. I got it from this website I tend to use when trying to remember specific class abilities. http://gdnd.wikidot.com/coreclass:monk

This website is rather reliable:

http://5e.d20srd.org/index.htm

[Misterwhisper]

With that good of stats you chose two classes with almost no synergy and then watered them down?

Some things to keep in mind.

1. Some games are GM vs Player, those games are almost never fun because if they want to, the GM will always win. If they don't win, they will make sure they do the next time. Don't play in that kind of game.

2. If you are stuck in that kind of situation, do not play a build that lets the DM decide the outcome. Ex. Do not play a class that relies on the DM rolling a save, because they will just succeed anytime they want to. Also do not rely on opposed skill checks like Grappling for the same reason.


You are going to want something, safe, reliable, and well rounded.
At level 10 with those stats, try this:

Half Elf
2 levels of Hexblade, Blade lock, 8 Levels of ancients paladin.

Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 20

ASI:
Warcaster and Revenant Blade
Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Devils sight

Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting

Carry a Double Scimitar:
That is a 2 handed weapon that can be used with great weapon fighting, Gives one more AC, and comes with a bonus action 2d4 attack.

Charisma to hit, damage, and agonizing blasts.

Great Saves on all your main stats.
Resistance to magic damage.

Lots of other goodies including 3 attacks to smite with each turn and recurring 1st level spells from warlock.


You could also go 3 warlock and 7 paladin but you lose and ASI.

[bid]

2 levels of Hexblade, Blade lock, 8 Levels of ancients paladin.

Str: 12
Brainfart?

It'd work with Str14 / Int12 though.

[samcifer]

There's no rule that a barbarian HAS to be a tank. Yes, that's what most people play them as, but it is not the only way to play a barb. Running in, hitting and dashing away in hit and run tactics is the way I want to play the character. I'd be doing up to 2d8 + 14 + 3d6 damage each turn, have great survivability and things I can do outside of combat so that I'm not just tagging along and waiting for the next combat to start so that I can be useful again.

Besides, I already know how I want to play him... as a Bruce Banner holding back The Hulk kind of guy.

You may not agree with what I'm going for, but I'd enjoy playing him and isn't that the point of a character? To be fun to play? Nesides, it's not as unworkable as you make it sound, imo.

[Misterwhisper]

Brainfart?

It'd work with Str14 / Int12 though.

Yeah, for some reason I thought it was just the 13 cha they needed.

Could also make it a higher str and lower dex build and wear heavier armor if needed, but I like the better skill choices and initiative of dex.

[Misterwhisper]

There's no rule that a barbarian HAS to be a tank. Yes, that's what most people play them as, but it is not the only way to play a barb. Running in, hitting and dashing away in hit and run tactics is the way I want to play the character. I'd be doing up to 2d8 + 14 + 3d6 damage each turn, have great survivability and things I can do outside of combat so that I'm not just tagging along and waiting for the next combat to start so that I can be useful again.

Besides, I already know how I want to play him... as a Bruce Banner holding back The Hulk kind of guy.

You may not agree with what I'm going for, but I'd enjoy playing him and isn't that the point of a character? To be fun to play? Nesides, it's not as unworkable as you make it sound, imo.

So your plan against an "Overpowered DM" is to play a less than normally effective character but then ask for advice about it?

What is the point?

You come here about once a month with some kind of oddball mostly ineffective build and then ask people about it, then when we point out that your build is not very good you say it is how you want to play it.

Play whatever you want, die when the DM does not cater to your sub-standard build, and then what?

[MagneticKitty]

Does your dm allow ua? Just ask to play a revenant race. Any time you die you rise again until your main goal is met. Which might be beating the big bad.
Plus revenant dragonborn breathe necrotic.

[MoiMagnus]

About overpowered DMs:

I've got a DM who essentially had for motto "A fight where the PCs does not feel in danger of dying is not a fight worth playing".
I've played part of a pathfinder campaign with him, that was not really fun, and the situation was made worse by some munchkins among the players.

I've then played a homebrew (vaguely inspired from 4e) campaign with him, and that was very fun to play, since by having full control on the system, he was able to maintain this feeling of "We're on the ropes" while not causing any unbalance (every class was build to be able to nova), and not feeling unfair or making the players feel powerless (at the contrary, the feeling around the table was more "Certainty of death, small chance of success... What are we waiting for?")

Maybe 5e is not the best for your DM, then?

[samcifer]

So your plan against an "Overpowered DM" is to play a less than normally effective character but then ask for advice about it?

What is the point?

You come here about once a month with some kind of oddball mostly ineffective build and then ask people about it, then when we point out that your build is not very good you say it is how you want to play it.

Play whatever you want, die when the DM does not cater to your sub-standard build, and then what?

*Sigh* Really? I can still keep up rage by dashing in to attack, then out again. I repeat... A BARBARIAN DOES NOT NEED TO BE A TANK. I want a character that I enjoy and people insist on picking it apart because it doesn't fit others' perceptions of what a class should do. I'm using Strength as my attack stat with a rapier and attacking every turn, therefore, both rage and sneak attack can work and stay in effect during the game.

As for me making sub-par builds, I had assumed that creativity was part of the game. It's not like I'm trying to play a barbarian/wizard, which WOULD be a sub-par build.

Sorry if I'm getting too defensive, but that remark came off as a bit rude.

I appreciate peoples' help, but when I get comments like this, it brings out my bitterness towards humanity. Small wonder I became a Satanist irl.

Also, I COULD stay in place and trade hits, but that's not how I always want to be playing this character. I tried being a tank before and hated the experience. I want a more mobile build that can both take and deal higher than average amounts of damage and still be able to do things out of combat. I'd have stats of STR 20, DEX 18, CON 16, WIS 14, INT 12, and CHA 16. It's much better and more versatile than my GWM/PM half-orc bear-totem barb/BM fighter who had nothing to do outside of combat and no out-of-combat mechanics that I could eve find a use for.

I'd just really appreciate less hostility, is all. You don't like my ideas and ways of making characters, fine. To others who are less hostile, I thank you for your ideas and points that you made.

[Misterwhisper]

*Sigh* Really? I can still keep up rage by dashing in to attack, then out again. I repeat... A BARBARIAN DOES NOT NEED TO BE A TANK. I want a character that I enjoy and people insist on picking it apart because it doesn't fit others' perceptions of what a class should do. I'm using Strength as my attack stat with a rapier and attacking every turn, therefore, both rage and sneak attack can work and stay in effect during the game.

As for me making sub-par builds, I had assumed that creativity was part of the game. It's not like I'm trying to play a barbarian/wizard, which WOULD be a sub-par build.

Sorry if I'm getting too defensive, but that remark came off as a bit rude.

I appreciate peoples' help, but when I get comments like this, it brings out my bitterness towards humanity. Small wonder I became a Satanist irl.

Also, I COULD stay in place and trade hits, but that's not how I always want to be playing this character. I tried being a tank before and hated the experience. I want a more mobile build that can both take and deal higher than average amounts of damage and still be able to do things out of combat. I'd have stats of STR 20, DEX 18, CON 16, WIS 14, INT 12, and CHA 16. It's much better and more versatile than my GWM/PM half-orc bear-totem barb/BM fighter who had nothing to do outside of combat and no out-of-combat mechanics that I could eve find a use for.

I'd just really appreciate less hostility, is all. You don't like my ideas and ways of making characters, fine. To others who are less hostile, I thank you for your ideas and points that you made.

The problem with this is that you complain about a very challenging and harsh GM but then plan to play a sub par character, but then whine when people try to make it better.

Again, nobody said you have to play a tank.

Also you keep arguing points I never said: I never said you would lose rage, or that you have to be attacked to keep rage, I am not sure why you keep saying that.

Hit and move back is fine, if you are not dual wielding or using a PAM you might as well, except for the round you engage rage.

If you want to play a hit and dodge around kind of character it works great, but what is the point of the 5 levels of barbarian at that point?

Barbarian 2, Rogue 8 or just all rogue would be better.

[samcifer]

The problem with this is that you complain about a very challenging and harsh GM but then plan to play a sub par character, but then whine when people try to make it better.

Again, nobody said you have to play a tank.

Also you keep arguing points I never said: I never said you would lose rage, or that you have to be attacked to keep rage, I am not sure why you keep saying that.

Hit and move back is fine, if you are not dual wielding or using a PAM you might as well, except for the round you engage rage.

If you want to play a hit and dodge around kind of character it works great, but what is the point of the 5 levels of barbarian at that point?

Barbarian 2, Rogue 8 or just all rogue would be better.

To be fair, yes, you never said anything about losing rage and that was an assumption on my part, so I apologize for getting the wrong idea on that part.

To explain, here's why I want 5 levels of bear totem barbarian and it's based off of the sessions I've had with this dm. He tends to like to use enemies who do lots of damage when they hit and with high accuracy, they hit more often than not. (AC 22+ is the only way to stand a chance of not being hit by his monster's attacks most of the time). He also loves using monsters (to be clear, any npc foe we face I'm calling monsters) that do various kinds of magical damage and often of multiple types. Absorb Elements is basically a dead spell in any campaign he runs because he uses breath attacks that do up 5 different kinds of damage (an Orobourus used this kind of cone attack on us in our other campaign - the every other Friday one with my sor-lock character) or hellfire or some other kind of attack that causes magical damage of kinds AE can't cover. Because of this, Bear Totem is very much needed to help increase survivability of my character. Barb 5 gives both an extra attack to increase my chances of hitting as well as an extra 10' of movement per turn which with dashing as a bonus action and the Tabaxi racial power, grants up to 40' of extra movement in a turn and +20' without that ability. That's mobility that no one other than a tabaxi monk can counter and I listed my reasons for wanting barb over monk on the first page of the thread.

If I only went barb 2, I'd lose that extra movement, the extra attack, wider ranges of resistances and +6 hp for Evasion (which hasn't come up often enough to worry about) and an extra +1d6 of sneak attack damage, which would only be an average of +3 or 4 damage per turn. That, to me at least, sounds sub par. I'd give up so much for so little in return.

For higher levels, I'd probably only take rogue to 6 for the second set of proficiencies and go the rest on barb for advantage on initiative rolls, increased crit range and the ability to drop to 1 hp once when dropped to 0hp.

As for wanting rogue, the draws for me are Cunning Action, the 4 expertizes, Uncanny Dodge, Thieves' Tools and burglary skills to use outside of combat to give my pc uses out of combat. I've wanted to play a barb/rogue for some time now and also wanted to play a tabaxi (I love the khajiit of the Elder Scrolls games and this is as close as I can get to that) and only recently looked in to how the Tabaxi racial movement power combines with bonus action dashing.

I can't count on the campaign lasting long enough for us to get all the way to lv. 20 (13 is the highest we've ever gotten in any campaigns the group has played), so I want features and such that I can either have now or within the next few levels.

I'll have to focus on my work for now, so I'll write a bit more on this later. It's too busy here today. :P

[Misterwhisper]

To be fair, yes, you never said anything about losing rage and that was an assumption on my part, so I apologize for getting the wrong idea on that part.

To explain, here's why I want 5 levels of bear totem barbarian and it's based off of the sessions I've had with this dm. He tends to like to use enemies who do lots of damage when they hit and with high accuracy, they hit more often than not. (AC 22+ is the only way to stand a chance of not being hit by his monster's attacks most of the time). He also loves using monsters (to be clear, any npc foe we face I'm calling monsters) that do various kinds of magical damage and often of multiple types. Absorb Elements is basically a dead spell in any campaign he runs because he uses breath attacks that do up 5 different kinds of damage (an Orobourus used this kind of cone attack on us in our other campaign - the every other Friday one with my sor-lock character) or hellfire or some other kind of attack that causes magical damage of kinds AE can't cover. Because of this, Bear Totem is very much needed to help increase survivability of my character. Barb 5 gives both an extra attack to increase my chances of hitting as well as an extra 10' of movement per turn which with dashing as a bonus action and the Tabaxi racial power, grants up to 40' of extra movement in a turn and +20' without that ability. That's mobility that no one other than a tabaxi monk can counter and I listed my reasons for wanting barb over monk on the first page of the thread.

If I only went barb 2, I'd lose that extra movement, the extra attack, wider ranges of resistances and +6 hp for Evasion (which hasn't come up often enough to worry about) and an extra +1d6 of sneak attack damage, which would only be an average of +3 or 4 damage per turn. That, to me at least, sounds sub par. I'd give up so much for so little in return.

For higher levels, I'd probably only take rogue to 6 for the second set of proficiencies and go the rest on barb for advantage on initiative rolls, increased crit range and the ability to drop to 1 hp once when dropped to 0hp.

As for wanting rogue, the draws for me are Cunning Action, the 4 expertizes, Uncanny Dodge, Thieves' Tools and burglary skills to use outside of combat to give my pc uses out of combat. I've wanted to play a barb/rogue for some time now and also wanted to play a tabaxi (I love the khajiit of the Elder Scrolls games and this is as close as I can get to that) and only recently looked in to how the Tabaxi racial movement power combines with bonus action dashing.

I can't count on the campaign lasting long enough for us to get all the way to lv. 20 (13 is the highest we've ever gotten in any campaigns the group has played), so I want features and such that I can either have now or within the next few levels.

I'll have to focus on my work for now, so I'll write a bit more on this later. It's too busy here today. :P

Sounds more like you are just stuck with a crappy dm.

Only real answer is to DM for the group and show them how games are supposed to go and hope the old dm gets the hint.

Sucks to play in an area with few choices.

[GorogIrongut]

I've played around with making similar builds. And in my experience, barbarian is very top heavy. You get a LOT of stuff from the first 2 levels. Unarmoured... Danger Sense (goes great with uncanny dodge and evasion)... And Reckless being the capstone. I've found Rage to actually be a handicap. I only pull it out when the fight becomes a slog.

I tend to then use either Gloom Stalker and/or Arcane Trickster. For the purpose of my comments here, I'll ignore Gloom Stalker.

So I pick Arcane Trickster over Swashbuckler, because you get access to Booming Blade. The ability to cast magic is great. But the ability to hit someone with Booming Blade, Sneak Attack (all while reckless) and then to disengage and get away from them is nasty. Rogues have an amazing base chassis. It's surprisingly difficult to kill a rogue. You wouldn't need to rage as often as you think to still be a great survivor. Plus, by limiting your Barbarian to 2 (maybe 3 levels), you get more levels into Rogue to pump your sneak attack.

Remember GFB and Booming Blade keep pace pretty evenly with the extra attacks you get from the fighter classes when you look at the math.
Remember Reckless helps mitigate the fact you only have the one attack, which makes your BB and Sneak attack better.
Remember, Warcaster allows you to use BB as a reaction. Nothing's more fun than having someone trying to move past you only to get hit by BB. Do they stay or do they go?
Remember that AT doesn't have to have a high intelligence. There are plenty of spells you can pick that don't involve your intelligence modifier/dc check.

Obviously, if you decide to rage, you'll have to stop using BB. But I normally only rage, when I'm looking to prevent damage. It becomes more about survival and less about damage dealing.

*deposits 2 cents*

[Misterwhisper]

I've played around with making similar builds. And in my experience, barbarian is very top heavy. You get a LOT of stuff from the first 2 levels. Unarmoured... Danger Sense (goes great with uncanny dodge and evasion)... And Reckless being the capstone. I've found Rage to actually be a handicap. I only pull it out when the fight becomes a slog.

I tend to then use either Gloom Stalker and/or Arcane Trickster. For the purpose of my comments here, I'll ignore Gloom Stalker.

So I pick Arcane Trickster over Swashbuckler, because you get access to Booming Blade. The ability to cast magic is great. But the ability to hit someone with Booming Blade, Sneak Attack (all while reckless) and then to disengage and get away from them is nasty. Rogues have an amazing base chassis. It's surprisingly difficult to kill a rogue. You wouldn't need to rage as often as you think to still be a great survivor. Plus, by limiting your Barbarian to 2 (maybe 3 levels), you get more levels into Rogue to pump your sneak attack.

Remember GFB and Booming Blade keep pace pretty evenly with the extra attacks you get from the fighter classes when you look at the math.
Remember Reckless helps mitigate the fact you only have the one attack, which makes your BB and Sneak attack better.
Remember, Warcaster allows you to use BB as a reaction. Nothing's more fun than having someone trying to move past you only to get hit by BB. Do they stay or do they go?
Remember that AT doesn't have to have a high intelligence. There are plenty of spells you can pick that don't involve your intelligence modifier/dc check.

Obviously, if you decide to rage, you'll have to stop using BB. But I normally only rage, when I'm looking to prevent damage. It becomes more about survival and less about damage dealing.

*deposits 2 cents*

Or you could just not reckless attack and use trickster to get a familiar to use the help action which is much better.

[GorogIrongut]

Or you could just not reckless attack and use trickster to get a familiar to use the help action which is much better.
True. But I play with DM's who have no compunction about targeting familiars. The familiar is a great bonus and situationally useful. But not a fix for everything.

There are a couple of monk subclasses that would be fun to take to level 5+ far sooner than I would take the barb past level 2.

[samcifer]

Well yeah, I've played an elven swashbuckler/sorc and only so that I could quicken BB to get a second attack, but I want to be able to attack 2 times in a turn to help increase my chances of scoring a hit without going into that whole weapon in our off-hand for a bonus action attack when I'd rather leave it free for dashing or disengaging.

We had a gunsmith artificer in our party for our Friday group on the other campaign and even though he had max accuracy, he tended to miss a lot due to tending to roll low on his attack rolls (a problem I have as well... dice seem to hate me :P). With only 1 attack per turn, he ended up with a lot of wasted turns whereas if he'd had a second attack, he might have been able to score a hit. That's something I'd like to avoid if possible. I'd rather have 2 attacks that do less damage but gives me a second chance to hit instead of one big damage attack that whiffs and I end up not doing any damage at all. Those big swings only work if they manage to connect, in other words.

I'd probably take barb to lv. 11, but more than that seems like it's not really too appealing. I'd likely focus on more rogue levels after barb 11, assuming we get that far before the campaign ends.

Again, I know that it may not be the way most people would do it, but I'd rather have lower levels of multiple classes that I'd enjoy using rather than grid up for one top-level ability of a single class. That's just my personal way of playing the game.

If it makes anyone feel better, my fiance' who plays both campaigns with me doesn't see the point of splitting up my levels between so many classes and gets frustrated that I (will never) play a single-class character. To me, that's just so boring a way to play. To those who like playing that way, great, but I like to do more things than less because of limiting myself to only a single class or only a level or two of a secondary class.

Of course, I could always try for a variation of Abserd:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZCIh_3b5K8

[bid]

I'd probably take barb to lv. 11, but more than that seems like it's not really too appealing. I'd likely focus on more rogue levels after barb 11, assuming we get that far before the campaign ends.
For me, feral instinct is as far as barbarian goes. Beyond that, you lose too much from lack of finesse weapon feat as good as GWM.
I wouldn't bother with barb 11 if I can't reach zealot 14 for those GMs anyway.

[samcifer]

For me, feral instinct is as far as barbarian goes. Beyond that, you lose too much from lack of finesse weapon feat as good as GWM.
I wouldn't bother with barb 11 if I can't reach zealot 14 for those GMs anyway.

Yeah, if Bear totem wasn't so important to go for I'd take zealot.