Player is set on doing something MASASIVELY stupid, needs to feel consequences

[FoxWolFrostFire]

Long story short, A level 6(2Cleric/4 Sorc) Star elf (Sea elf stats) Just got back from the Underdark with his party so he KNOWS how dangerous it is down there figured he didn't get to meet any Drow. So now during down time he wants to go back there BY HIM SELF. To find and say hello to the Drow. Which I made very clear In character and out that the Drow are NOT friendly in any way shape or form.

So outside of overwhelming him with Drow spell casters and soldiers to for ever enslave his character, what else drow like stuff can I use to confirm a just punishment

PS, he believes he has a way to escape...As the dungeon master I highly doubt a level six multi classier can escape from a Drow city, in anyway shape or form. Again I want a punishment that'll stick

Update: He didn't do it. I throw some stuff at him that was more interesting to his character, and I was able to search my cities and find a surface Drow for him to meet...Now he just wants to say hello to a Drider next time he gets a chance. Oooooh. Yeah.

[CapnWildefyr]

If this is 'downtime' and not being roleplayed: ask if the pc insists on going. "Yes, i do." Then just ask "what OTHER character will you be bringing into my next adventure?" No dice no talk, just whats the next character. That ought to be a wakeup call. Hopefully the player will say "OK then I don't go."

[Trandir]

My idea (and probably not that good):
Overwhelm and capture him;
Prive him of all his gear and give him a slave's collar/mark that impose -X to Wis, Cha and Int;
If he manage to pull off the stunt and escape he gets a nice souvenir that will require a quest to get rid of otherwise give him a new character sheet.

The drows would probably kill him or still do something that end up with him making a new PC. If you want him to survive throw monster, or many, at him in the middle of the road, too strong to be dealt with alone and too big to pass by but also too slow to effectively chase him.

[FoxWolFrostFire]

He is HEAVILY! Wanting to get some type of detailed roleplay interaction from this. But I like the idea of just saying nope. Your character ****ed up you don't get a save for this one...But that'll cause too much drama and bitching for my already taxed DM psyicy to take.

[Waazraath]

I'd ask more info. Maybe he wants to do something massively stupid, like just walking in and see what happens; or maybe he'll come up with an idea that allows him to see few drow and leave without too much danger. For instance, join a trade caravan that's on its way to trade with a small drow outpost, as a mercenary (legit way to spend downtime to keep up a certain standard of living, or even earn some gc, afaic). Drow are intelligent creatures, and although completely evil, they do trade sometimes with other races as far as I'm aware (ymmv per campaign of course).

If the player just walks in, you can simply have him roll a new one, and if he does something smart, he might auto-succeed, and for anything in between, you can have him roll some skills (bluff and disguise kit ability checks when going in disguised, for example), with outcomes variying depending on how good the idea was.

But just deceiding that the player needs to be 'punished' without going into more detail seems needlessly antagonistic and DM vs player.

[FoxWolFrostFire]

I'd ask more info. Maybe he wants to do something massively stupid, like just walking in and see what happens; or maybe he'll come up with an idea that allows him to see few drow and leave without too much danger. For instance, join a trade caravan that's on its way to trade with a small drow outpost, as a mercenary (legit way to spend downtime to keep up a certain standard of living, or even earn some gc, afaic). Drow are intelligent creatures, and although completely evil, they do trade sometimes with other races as far as I'm aware (ymmv per campaign of course).

If the player just walks in, you can simply have him roll a new one, and if he does something smart, he might auto-succeed, and for anything in between, you can have him roll some skills (bluff and disguise kit ability checks when going in disguised, for example), with outcomes variying depending on how good the idea was.

But just deceiding that the player needs to be 'punished' without going into more detail seems needlessly antagonistic and DM vs player.

I should have been more clear. I have warned him many, many, times this was a stupid idea. I've already asked him his plans and it seems it is as simple as just walking into a Drow city all by him self.

[Waazraath]

I've already asked him his plans and it seems it is as simple as just walking into a Drow city all by him self.

....

maybe help him by asking a few questions? "how are you going to do that?" "how do you prevent they just going to shoot you?" "do you realize they have 120ft darkvision and you probably will get shot in the dark before you even see a drow?" "are you SURE you don't want to disguise yourself as a drow, or take any other precautions"?

Maybe mention out of character to the player that downtime isn't meant for detailed RP as well.

If all of this doesn't help and he still walks in alone, I'd go with CapnWildefyr's solution. Or, if you really want to be nice, make a d100 table:
1-94: dead or mia, new character
95-99: returns with random lingering injury
100: miraculously survives.

[MoiMagnus]

Long story short, A level 6(2Cleric/4 Sorc) Star elf (Sea elf stats) Just got back from the Underdark with his party so he KNOWS how dangerous it is down there figured he didn't get to meet any Drow. So now during down time he wants to go back there BY HIM SELF. To find and say hello to the Drow. Which I made very clear In character and out that the Drow are NOT friendly in any way shape or form.

So outside of overwhelming him with Drow spell casters and soldiers to for ever enslave his character, what else drow like stuff can I use to confirm a just punishment

PS, he believes he has a way to escape...As the dungeon master I highly doubt a level six multi classier can escape from a Drow city, in anyway shape or form. Again I want a punishment that'll stick

I feel like there is a miscommunication between you and him on one point: you're not the kind of DM that will create a balance sequence of encounters whatever the context.
(I mean, I've encountered DM that would make it as easy to sneak in the castle of the local lord, sneak in the Drow city, or sneak in an infernal city. And the difficulty would be "whatever is the standard difficulty for the level and number of characters".)

This, or it is the kind of player that expect to make a daring escape like Jack Sparrow, counting on the fact that fate (i.e you, the DM) will arrange stuff to make things possible (by having incompetent guards, for example).

[Ganryu]

Do the logical thing. Throw an encounter at him, kill his character. Don't hold back. At all.

1 Drider with darkness up focused on one of his items should do it. 3 drow priestesses as well, one will eventually summon a demon, other two can overwhelm him with spiders.

If his party was having trouble, he'll sure as hell regret it.

[Themrys]

Do you know this guy well?

He sounds like he's either the kind of player who does random **** to see what the consequences will be, or a masochist who hopes for some detailed torture descriptions.

Describe to him how he's captured by extremely unsexy and boring Drow and made to do some extremely boring, but neither humiliating nor painful work, and have him escape without his gear.

(If he tries to provoke punishment, just have the Drow kill him. You made it clear enough they're dangerous. And he walked in there of his own accord, so it is not like they invested any resources to get him ..)


The slave collar idea I would only employ if he is the classic "I want to do random ****" guy. If there's any risk he is into this sort of thing ... don't. (In fact, if I was you, if he gives off masochist vibes and tries to involve you in that sort of thing, I would kick him.)


In any case, it is clear this annoys you, so keep it short and boring, and make it clear that the next random nonsense thing he does will also get a boring result, and that if he wants detailed roleplay, he has to act like a reasonable human elvish being ingame.

[JellyPooga]

I feel like there is a miscommunication

Yeah. This.

Your player obviously underestimates exactly what they're doing compared to the outcome you, the GM, foresee.

Your player expects not only to survive, but be successful in "meeting a drow" (as moronic a goal as that might be). Frankly, if they persist in pursuing suicide, let them. Don't roll dice, don't let them roll dice; just describe how their character dies lost, cold and alone in the darkness of the depths of the world, faced with the endless horrors of the Underdark, they didn't even fulfil their dream of meeting one of their evil cousins, let alone see their fabled cities. New character and a more sensible player....or you retcon the whole thing after giving that outcome and ask them what they want to do instead.

Stupidity should be rewarded appropriately. If they're expecting anything but a new character out of it, convince them otherwise.

[HappyDaze]

For one thing, the Drow are not really all that accessible. It's not like he can just hop in an elevator and thumb the "Sub-Basement U13" button, wait through some uncomfortable moments with the others in the elevator, and step out into the Underdark. Access points are typically remote and may involve weeks or months of travel just to get to a point where you start going down under. Even then, not every part of the Underdark has access to every other part. The one they were in previously doesn't appear to link up with Drowland, so that might just be a bust. Even if he finds an access point that leads to Drowland, it might take a few more weeks of tunnel crawling to get down there. So, just how much downtime is he expecting to have?

Regardless, just tell him that what he's planning is not even remotely downtime activity; it's an adventure. If everybody is planning to go adventuring together, great. If not, he's writing his character out of the game and needs to make a new character unless you want to run a solo game for him.

[StoicLeaf]

You could start off with a warning fight as he descends into the underdark.
Give him something CR appropriate but make it a hard fight.
Should he somehow survive and still insist upon continuing ..

He runs into a drow patrol, they take him captive.
He ends up a slave for house XXX.
Game over, he's now an NPC.

[Nhorianscum]

Is this objectively suicidal in world?

Yes.

Is this obscenely entertaining?

Ohgodyes.

I'd say shove a standard issue drow patrol (2-3 warriors, a drow mage and a handful of standard issue drow NPC blocks) in the underdark and let the player have their fun if they can pull it out? Awsome moment. If they fail? Awsome moment.

Regardless of the outcome let the player have their interaction and play it totally above board and straight.

Worst case the player gets to see their PC later as a nice cameo.

It may not even be full on suicidal. A cleric/sorc has quite a few tricks and depending on skills/languages the player may just pull it off.

Example: Going in with expertise history/religion, prof deception/persuasion, disguise self and subtle suggestion the player really can just bull**** out a meeting.

[Chad.e.clark]

Has much experience with DnD does this player have, does the player know what the typical Drow society is like, both in general and in your world? What is he expecting to happen with the Drow when he finds them?

I would find this out, gently try and re-dirext him, but if he insists, I do love the phrase "play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Is this objectively suicidal in world?

Yes.

Is this obscenely entertaining?

Ohgodyes.

I'd say shove a standard issue drow patrol (2-3 warriors, a drow mage and a handful of standard issue drow NPC blocks) in the underdark and let the player have their fun if they can pull it out? Awsome moment. If they fail? Awsome moment.

Regardless of the outcome let the player have their interaction and play it totally above board and straight.

Worst case the player gets to see their PC later as a nice cameo.

It may not even be full on suicidal. A cleric/sorc has quite a few tricks and depending on skills/languages the player may just pull it off.

There is a player in a game I DM who likes more detail than the rest of the party. Every so often it comes up and I give him some.

If you can find the time to do this via phone or text even away from the table it might be cool.

Oh yeah, read the Quaggoth fluff in thd Monster Manual. You can have a few Drow man slave/workers with their slave Quaggoths be a draining encounter which alerts the Driders or actual guards just to warn the fellow. A couple 4 on 1 fights just may satisfy or scare your player off.

[Randomthom]

Since this is "downtime" activity but sounds an awful lot like roleplaying I think you'll need to take the following steps;
1. Explain to him that downtime isn't meant to be doing adventuring. Explain that you're not saying no but to be fair to the other players, you won't be devoting lots of time to one-PC-one-DM roleplaying while they wait.
2. Set it up like a Matt Colville skill challenge* but with only one participating character.
3. Have a list of possible outcomes based on how many successes he gets before getting 3 failures.

*Basic rules are;
Players must reach X successful skill checks before reaching 3 failed skill checks. The higher X is, the more difficult the skill challenge is overall.
No skill can be used untrained.**
No skill can be used by one player more than once.**
Skills that aren't obviously beneficial must be justified by the players with some level of detail. e.g. History in a stealth challenge doesn't apply unless the PC can give avery good reason why it might.

**You'll likely need to waive one of these two things for a solo player challenge. I'd recommend the "no skill can be used untrained" rather than the other.

He explains it better himself;
youtube.com / watch?v=GvOeqDpkBm8

What he is trying to do isn't impossible, just very difficult. It might require maybe 8 successes (you set the DC depending on what the skill/description of it's use is).

[CapnWildefyr]

Lots of good suggestions. It really depends on if you want to roleplay and if so, how much? Personally I would avoid any role playing. However you could have this character meet a caravan leader who describes what happened to some other guy who brought a surface elf his HIS caravan. That is, how the drow killed them all and how that guy really hates being a slave.

Or, just say that you are not DM'ing in that direction now. You have other adventures planned, and if this character is dead set on going, then the player needs a new PC. Be nice, but point out you don't have unlimited time to write adventures for just one player in the group. Maybe the elf becomes an NPC (with player permission) or maybe never gets used again. Even with the best player motives, DMs are not bound to follow that adventuring path.

[False God]

In fairness to the PC, he doesn't need to go to Menzoberranzan to find Drow, he just needs to get into Drow territory, run into a patrol, have them try to murder him, and run away.

That's as far as I'd go. Something simple, a couple spelunking checks, runs into a party of Drow, the Drow try to kill him. If he does, game over man. If he runs away, some chase checks, if he gets away, good for him. If he doesn't, game over man. If he gets captured, game over man.

No grand escape from prison. Capture is character death. Go make a new one.

Oh yeah, and no XP for any of this. Wasting the DM's time is a -XP venture.

[Eldariel]

If possible, I'd 100 % run a between games single player session for his little venture and see what happens. It might be entertaining and it would certainly be awesome.

[diplomancer]

Well, a cleric/sorcerer multiclass is not particularly good, so I guess the player realized that and it is just suicide-by-drow.

Seriously, talk to your player. Ask him if he's satisfied with his character and wants to keep playing him. If yes, explain to him how, if he does go through with it, he's dead. This is the equivalent of saying "I want to jump in the volcano and I want you to give me a chance of getting out". Things just don't work that way, the rules state clearly that you don't play dice if the outcome is clear.

If, however, he is not happy with his character, wants to have a new one, and that's how he wants the character to die, that's fine. Give it a short narrative about what happened to him and move on to the next character.

[Nhorianscum]

There is a player in a game I DM who likes more detail than the rest of the party. Every so often it comes up and I give him some.

If you can find the time to do this via phone or text even away from the table it might be cool.

Oh yeah, read the Quaggoth fluff in thd Monster Manual. You can have a few Drow man slave/workers with their slave Quaggoths be a draining encounter which alerts the Driders or actual guards just to warn the fellow. A couple 4 on 1 fights just may satisfy or scare your player off.

I like this as a less-player-killy approach.

I personally enjoy letting players like this do their thing at the table proper (within reason and with restraint). It gives everyone a laugh if it goes wrong and if it goes right it's awsome and encourages other players to interact with the world.

[Shabbazar]

Maybe mention out of character to the player that downtime isn't meant for detailed RP as well.


I wouldn't allow it based on this ^^.

Although I disagree with a lot of the downtime concept. I prefer in my campaigns and the campaigns I play in to actually RP out the downtime activity. That's gonna change from group to group obviously, but I think reducing downtime to an OOC experience is a waste of a good RP opportunity. It's also a way to pass a large amount of playtime without getting experience, thus spending more time in the 5-10 range that most people enjoy the most. Obviously this is hugely variant on your style of play.

Another option would be to let him come 15 minutes early and play it out. Let him get captured and enslaved. Then the party's next adventure can be rescuing him. He'll just be stuck in a cage or something and unable to participate for a couple sessions. That beats him up a little without killing the character.

[patchyman]

This is how I would run it. First, I would lay down some ground rules:
1. What the player is asking for is an adventure in itself. The only way it is fair to the other players is to run it as a skill challenge;
2. The player is forewarned that the character may die or be enslaved. The dice will fall where they may;
3. As a corollary to the previous point, the player must show up at the game with a backup character, in case his character dies or is enslaved;
4. Ideally, the player will show up 30 min early so you can run this without slowing the game down for the others;
5. You will allow the player to describe his preparation for the trip. You will adjudicate how much the prep costs. The player will be warned that prep will only count for a small flat bonus on a single roll as the DM decides;
6. Since this is a skill challenge, each roll stands in for dozens of similar rolls over several days. As such, Guidance, Divine Favor, and Lucky are not available (in the alternative, you can make each one available once and increase the DCs as a consequence). You will advise the player of this ahead of time.
7. You will tell the player that he can abandon his quest at any point. To do so, he must make a single Survival check. As a special circumstance, apply -X to the roll, where X is the number of failed skill rolls. Prepare a table with the results including Killed, Enslaved, Lost in the Underdark, Survives by the skin of his teeth (lose all equipment), Successfully retreats, and one positive outcome (gains knowledge or an ally)

For the skill challenge itself, it should use a variety of skills, but should mostly be navigating the Underdark and locating an outpost. Only the last roll should be something like Persuasion for dealing with drow. All rolls should be Hard or Very Hard DCs. You should think of ways for the character to fail forward while incurring consequences for his actions (failed Athletics means he doesn’t fall in the chasm, but all his gear does).

Stuff like Survival, Nature, Athletics, Perception, Stealth, Animal Handling, Intimidation and Persuasion would be appropriate skills.

The outcome should be based on the number of successes.

0-1 Different Flavours of Dead
2-3 Enslaved
4 Lost in the Underdark
5 Escapes by Skin of teeth, loses all equipment,
6 Fights Drow, recognized by non-drow as a hero and expert
7 Meets Drow,, gets to say his piece, make a Drow contact
8 Allies with a Drow House. Player is recognized as a god by his peers.

[Yunru]

I wouldn't allow it based on this ^^.

Although I disagree with a lot of the downtime concept. I prefer in my campaigns and the campaigns I play in to actually RP out the downtime activity. That's gonna change from group to group obviously, but I think reducing downtime to an OOC experience is a waste of a good RP opportunity. It's also a way to pass a large amount of playtime without getting experience, thus spending more time in the 5-10 range that most people enjoy the most. Obviously this is hugely variant on your style of play.
One of the biggest joys of playing by post is the ability to sit and think about what you're going to do and how to describe it. I just don't have time to be eloquent at the table.

[Cygnia]

Then the party's next adventure can be rescuing him.

See, if I was another player in this group, I'd resent being railroaded into saving an idiot from his own stupid consequences.

[Nhorianscum]

See, if I was another player in this group, I'd resent being railroaded into saving an idiot from his own stupid consequences.

Counterpoint. I'd be super into it and crylaugh half the rescue attempt.

[Shabbazar]

See, if I was another player in this group, I'd resent being railroaded into saving an idiot from his own stupid consequences.

Oh I'm with you there. I have a HUGE aversion to railroading. My view so embraces the neutral DM that I don't think DMs should make NPCs that break the rules for what PCs can do. With that in mind, as DM I would be perfectly fine with the characters saying "Bob is an idiot. &#^@ him." And then bailing on the rescue idea and leaving him to his fate.

[Randomthom]

Oh I'm with you there. I have a HUGE aversion to railroading. My view so embraces the neutral DM that I don't think DMs should make NPCs that break the rules for what PCs can do. With that in mind, as DM I would be perfectly fine with the characters saying "Bob is an idiot. &#^@ him." And then bailing on the rescue idea and leaving him to his fate.

But if the DM allowed the player to do this, clearly he isn't railroading. Surely though the same should apply to the rest of the party...

"You must rescue your comrade"
"nah, moron is probably dead, no sense in us getting dead over it too"
"ok"

:P

[Callin]

Skill Challenge. Make a series of Skill Challenges for him to succeed at to RP the trip. IF he passes his checks he makes it to the next set of checks. IF he fails he suffers a consequence. Maybe a minus to his next check or he starves to death even just traveling into the depths if he fails enough checks.

Plan on his capture in the skill checks and have another to break free. ALL in all if done right it could make a for a very memorable trip and story for his character. No combat. JUST Skill DCs. Range from Easy to Hard depending on how bad he messes up. It wont take up all of the next sessions time. Can be rolled between sessions even if yall wanted.

[Contrast]

PS, he believes he has a way to escape...As the dungeon master I highly doubt a level six multi classier can escape from a Drow city, in anyway shape or form. Again I want a punishment that'll stick

I would ask him how he's intending to escape. Players trying to keep secrets from the DM is the height of silliness - better for him to be told now that his character would understand his plan won't work than the player getting annoyed when it doesn't later.

I would be cautious of the mentality of imposing 'punishments'. Consequences are fine but you seem very keen that the player regret his choices here - if the character is annoying you then it may be better to talk to the player rather than punishing the character.

[Aprender]

{scrubbed}
If a player wants to suicide his character, he will find a way. Allow him to do it off screen.

[Ganryu]

Must say, love all the varied answers. Means there are a lot of different styles of how to DM, and that's a good thing. OP should take that into account as well, there's the matter of what he WANTS to do as well. If it fits his style go with it. Whatever answer aligns best with you.

Dm's are the consequences of the world. If he does something stupid, and the dice end up bad, it is up to DM to decide what the consequences are. Player has no right to whine. Good luck!

(Also, someone earlier said Cleric Sorcerer was bad. Depends how you do it. Most Multiclasses suck so hard, but 2 Cleric/18 Sorcerer tends to be very, very strong. Example, Tempest Cleric, Storm Sorcerer.)

[Sigreid]

I would just tell the player that downtime activities are just that, down time activities. Anything that can't be solved with a few simple rolls and no major consequence for failure is not a down time activity, it's an adventure. And when I'm DMing, adventures have to include the rest of the group.

[zinycor]

I do't think the situation is so cut and dry as you describe it.

In any case, explain to him that

1: Downtime activities are not meant to do these sort of things.
2: If he were todo suhg a thing his character would die, no die rolls needed
3: If he wants to go into a Drow city and meet some drow, He will need to convince the party to go with him as an adventure, no downtime activity.

Having said that, I would say that as a downtime activity he could spend resources and time in order to find out a way into a "Friendly" drow city.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Have him return to the passage go about an hour inside and the passage further down has been collapsed. The area is also flooding because the collapse dug into an underground lake.
Seems some locals got nervous about there being a passage to the Underdark nearby and took steps to seal it.

Or just have the party run into a Drow who escaped to the surface. If you’re a sadist have it happen during his failed attempt to return to the Underdark.

Have him make a DC 5 insight check. On success tell him “your gut tells you this is a suicidally dumb idea.” If he does it
anyway he gets down there and have him spot something obviously way out of his league. Something the entire party was
necessary to beat before.

Or say no. Downtime is not for adventures and if he wants to go to the Underdark he has to convince the party to go with and you aren’t going to narrate two different adventures.

[1Pirate]

To be honest, it’s still a little hazy what he wants to do. If he just wants to meet a drow and say “What’s up muh brotha from a spida motha!” It doesn’t seem like something that really needs lots of punishment. He goes in, they chase him away.

If it’s a matter of you not wanting to spend play time on a downtime activity, just tell him he met a drow, complimented him on his boots, there was a misunderstanding and, long story short, he’s now wanted in the Underdark for alleged unlawful carnal knowledge of a drider. Have it come up whenever he fails a Charisma check(“Guards, I must speak to King at once on an urgent matter of national security!” “Well we—wait, aren’t you Lucien the Drider-****er? You’re not seeing anyone you sick bastard!”).

Actually, if you get the other players to buy-in and have their characters make jokes at his expense, that would probably be a bigger and longer lasting punishment than any encounter you could throw at him.(“Why don’t you cast Web on the Bugbears?” “I want Lucien to Lightning Bolt them, not make-out with them!”)

If he wants to go in and immediately talk to the high priestess of Lolth about ending the millennia-spanning strife between their people...well after a few minutes in the city, the guards are going to fill him full of those drugged arrows, he’ll pass out and the player rolls a new character.

[Brookshw]

I skimmed most of this thread so apologies if these were suggested. Does it need to be a drow city in the underdark? Could he instead meet a wandering drow? Or be heading for an entrance to the underdark, stop by a nearby town, and the town be raided by drow while he's there? Maybe hire along with some duergar traders to get to a drow outpost?

Doesn't seem like a great idea to do during downtime, but would he be happy if you threw some drow into the campaign later?

[the_david]

There's a bunch of random encounter charts for the underdark on page 106-109 of Xanathar's Guide to Everything. I'd give him a chance to change his mind after every encounter.

Quick tip: Roll a bunch of encounters before the session, then rearrange them however you like. Least to most dangerous would probably be the most enjoyable. This gives you the added bonus of not having to add details on the fly.

I'm not seeing how it would be railroading if the party has to save him from the underdark. The entire thing is his idea. If anything, this is going of the rails.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Feed him to the Illithids.

[Sigreid]

To add to what I said earlier, if he can convince the rest of the party to make an expedition of it, sounds like a cool adventure!

[Elysiume]

He just wants to say hi? To some drow?

[Laserlight]

I've told players doing something similarly suicidal "If you do this, you will lose your character. Do you want to change your mind, or play it out, or I can just narrate it and you can roll a new character. If you want to play it out, come early for next session."

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'd be rather impressed if he even made it to the Drow by themselves, there are innumerable other things on the trip that could and probably will kill them.

Have them roll stealth (or if they don't choose to be stealthy, a percentile die). Set an arbitrary number. Best case scenario is that they were able to sneak in, meet a drow and become a shiny new prisoner. Worst case scenario is a few intellect devourers found a easy to kill but not very filling snack. There are stupid actions you can take, but this is clearly a suicide attempt. If, despite your best efforts, the player is still convinced that this is an idea they can live from after you tell them plainly that they will very likely die then all you can do is let it happen.

My much more lenient but probably unrealistic solution is that a Drow scouting party has followed them out of the Underdark in an attempt to capture some seemingly able bodied new slaves. Done well, this doesn't necessarily have to be tied the players interest in meeting Drow more than it was a consequence of travelling into the Underdark at all.

[greenstone]

Regardless, just tell him that what he's planning is not even remotely downtime activity; it's an adventure. If everybody is planning to go adventuring together, great. If not, he's writing his character out of the game and needs to make a new character unless you want to run a solo game for him.
QFT. Downtime is the boring stuff that characters do between adventures.

Often, downtime stuff doesn't even need the GM to intervene. When it does, it comes down to one or two rolls and a quick narration.

What this player wants is a solo adventure, which is just selfish. Adventures happen at the table with all the players involved.

Downtime has predetermined times. You carouse for two weeks. You spend 1 month building your business. You spend 3 days researching in a library. "Go into the Underdark to find Drow" doesn't fit this model.

[Lvl45DM!]

Get the other players to play the squad of drow and let them play out the encounter. Fun for the whole group.

[Mordaedil]

Do a one-on-one session with him if he really wants to go through with it and allow him to go on a solo adventure in the underdark and see if his skills are suited for it. If the dice allow it, he might get captured by the drow and they might question why he'd be stupid enough to go down there all by himself and roleplay it out. Just draw out a map of crossing corridors and dead ends with no treasure and possibly overly strong encounters from beings beyond reasoning. Be clear with him that this counts as his downtime, so he can't earn too much solo experience or treasure and he'll have to pull off encounters that would be challenging to his entire party solo to get anything beneficial.

See where the roleplay takes him and if he has a plan or if he faces his end down there. Play up the underground survival bit. And there should be constantly beasts stalking him after a certain depth.

[KorvinStarmast]

Could he instead meet a wandering drow? Or be heading for an entrance to the underdark, stop by a nearby town, and the town be raided by drow while he's there? Maybe hire along with some duergar traders to get to a drow outpost?

Doesn't seem like a great idea to do during downtime, but would he be happy if you threw some drow into the campaign later? This seems to me to be a very doable approach.

Get the other players to play the squad of drow and let them play out the encounter. Fun for the whole group. Now that would be fun. :smallcool:

[Spiritchaser]

The problem I see is’t allowing him to go. Absent other considerations, if he wants to try he should be allowed to try, stupid or not, suicidal or not.

The problem is that this endeavour is clearly a full on gaming situation, not to be hand-waved or resolved with two or three rolls (unless he really does die that quickly), and this solo project intrudes on gameplay with the group. It’s fine for a player to politely request a one on one adventure, but it is certainly not fine to act in a way that actually forces the DM to accommodate, and before the next group session no less.

If you have the time, I would have the player roll up a fresh character to play with the group, then DM the solo player as and when you have free time to make it work. Given the project at hand this might not be all that much spare time before the project reaches its conclusion. If you do this try and have some fun with it. You might even find a way to let this character contribute in their demise... maybe finding a way to convey some critical information before... whatever horror they walk into does it’s horrible thing. It’s also possible that the first barely escaped encounter might scare them back to the surface... though if this is an experienced player I wouldn’t go out of my way to arrange this.

If you don’t have time, or just don’t feel like making time: You are entirely within your rights to say “I simply do not have time right now”. The player needs to be cool with that. You can have them roll up a fresh character and put this one away for a rainy day when you might, or just outright say no.

[Beleriphon]

As a potential option, he's captured, and rescued by Jarlaxle. Now the character owes Jarlaxle a favour.

[Cicciograna]

Completely different approach, that might help him gather some interesting data.

He goes solo in the Underdark, meets a small Drow patrol which is being mauled by a larger group of Duergar or an Illithid. The character helps the patrol survive the encounter, some of the (low-level) Drows grudgingly form a sort of alliance with him, smuggling him into the city. Maybe the Drow tell their sergeant that he was captured during the patrol, but then helped them survive the Duergar/Illithid ambush and so has now the rank of "battle-slave" or something like that. He receives some sort of Drow insigna that gives him a modicum of safe passage, but he's considered as a de facto subject to the Drow.

You have to make clear that what he's doing is INSANELY dangerous, that he has the feeling that he could be betrayed without a moment notice, that he constantly hears whispering behind his back from the members of the military who're disgruntled by his presence but who are clearly impressed by his combat prowess. At the same time, wandering the city (or more probably, being ordered around), he can feel the hateful gaze of other Drow in the military, the contempt of the Matrons, the sneering of the nobles: let him feel the haughtiness of the Dark Elves for a lowly combat slave. He might even be cast in the Coliseum for an unfair fight for the solace of the people.

If the player wants to meet Drow, let him. It's dangerous, yeah, but he's the hero of the story, let him have his fun. If he decides to stick around, then discuss with him for a way to abandon his character, as this would probably end his participation to the adventuring life with his party. If he decides, after a while, that he's got his share of Drow life, allow him to escape: maybe he's sent again on patrol, and he's able to run away somehow.
Whatever you decide to do, this would probably better be run privately as solo missions, otherwise the other players might resent him having the spotlight.
OR! You could play at the same table with everybody, with the rest of the party mounting an expedition to save him.

[VonKaiserstein]

You can approach this two ways, as I'm seeing you want memorable justice, and a lesson. First, have him be taken captive, and leave him blindfolded in the dark. Give him 3 or 4 weird, out of context moments and some saves to roll. The crown jewel?

You feel hunger like you've never felt. There is food, if you're brave enough to eat it, but you can't see anything in here.
If they eat, roll d10. If they don't, lose a constitution point.

They wake up missing d10 fingers if they chose to eat. That could increase their critical fumble chance, or limit the items they can hold, or even force them to spend some time and money relearning the spells they can cast with somatic components.

Oh, and of course, they've been sold to someone on the service, who's marked them with a mystical tattoo and now can scry on them at will and communicate with them in secret. Congratulations on your new plot hooks.

Alternatively, have someone overhear them at the bar, and post advertisements for a Drow safari. Then have the 'safari' be ambushed by 'Drow', again in the dark, and probably during the night after drugging them.The attackers and caravan are all in on it. He is horribly beaten, loses all gear, and ends up with weird fragmented memories of laughing black faces grinning at him. It's just dudes in black makeup with pointy ear extenders. Henceforth, he has disadvantage in complete darkness from the very traumatic experience.

Either way, they're not dead, and they'll remember that suicidal idiocy has long term consequences- plus there's every chance the moment will become a talking point of local thugs, or the party members themselves.

[Lvl45DM!]

This seems to me to be a very doable approach.
Now that would be fun. :smallcool:

I have a player who insists on running off. Shes new and its kinda funny, but after the first few times it was too hard to run two games simultaneously. So next time she ran off in the Isle of the Ape I whipped out 4 dinosaurs character sheets and gave them to the other players and let them kill and eat her character.
She got resurrected with a scroll from a some blood and now owes the party the worth of that scroll and diamond, so no more running.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I disagree with the notion presented that it should be along the lines of "you're dumb, so you're dead. Period." That said, I agree with the notion that travelling to the underdark isn't really a downtime thing, it's an adventure.

I have a couple of observations in the vein of how I would handle this:
A: There are a lot of bad things in the underdark, odds are he would die before reaching a Drow city alone.
B: The Drow are intelligent and have a civilization

Therefore, I would definitely approach the problem like: "An expedition to the underdark would be a multi-session adventure; not downtime, you'll need to convince your party to go with you once downtime is over. However, if your goal is just to see Drow, there's a trader who arrived in town from <A DROW CITY> a few days back, and a convoy departing for <A SMALL DROW CITY> looking for some muscle to protect them from the monsters on their way there."

[Contrast]

Therefore, I would definitely approach the problem like: "An expedition to the underdark would be a multi-session adventure; not downtime, you'll need to convince your party to go with you once downtime is over. However, if your goal is just to see Drow, there's a trader who arrived in town from <A DROW CITY> a few days back, and a convoy departing for <A SMALL DROW CITY> looking for some muscle to protect them from the monsters on their way there."

Assuming typical FR setting Drow really hate elves. We're talking kill on sight or capture to torture and sacrifice.

There's no way an elf is wandering into any sort of drow city and getting out unaccosted in the normal course of events. Being a guard of a caravan will not cut the mustard there.

[lordarkness]

Lots of good points and great advice here. Just remember its a game and its all for fun, but it must be fun for you as well. If you have the time and inclination then play it out. If not, let him encounter one of the random horrors patrolling the underdark and be done with it (either with or without a chance to escape [and if he chooses not to escape don't save him]).

Ive seen players do something improbable and dumb in the hopes of coming out with a good story either of heroic deeds or of a grisly death. It makes for great times as long as the result is explosive. Foolish as this clearly is, consider at least letting him go out with a bang and having some fun with that.

[strangebloke]

If this is 'downtime' and not being roleplayed: ask if the pc insists on going. "Yes, i do." Then just ask "what OTHER character will you be bringing into my next adventure?" No dice no talk, just whats the next character. That ought to be a wakeup call. Hopefully the player will say "OK then I don't go."

"If your character is leaving the party to go on an adventure, you and I will resolve that outside of the campaign. Regardless, the rest of the party will be moving on without you so if you want to play with the group you need a new character."

Players don't get to hold the entire table hostage just so they can go on a private journey of self-actualization. The fact that this is a suicidal venture is completely irrelevant. Well, not completely irrelevant. Its relevant insofar as, if you want to, you can just kill him

If you're going the #2 route, let him know that he will almost certainly die if he takes this path. If he persists, he's playing 'chicken' with you. He's driving his PC into your wall of death and daring you to kill him. Players do this sometimes, to test your will. That sounds melodramatic but its 100% a thing I've seen. If this ever happens, you have to show them that you're not kidding around, or else your players will not respect anything else that happens in the rest of the campaign. Trying to trap and kill your players with 'gotcha' nonsense is bad, but so is refusing to ever, every take off the kid gloves and bubblewrap.

So you must kill him. Or at least, put him in a situation where only luck and immediate action will save him. I wouldn't do it offscreen. There's a lesson for everyone here. Don't cheat. Just have him bump into 15 normal Drow with Longbows in a narrow tunnel. That's a "medium" encounter for his whole party. There's a 75% chance his perception rolls below ten and a 94% chance they'll roll over 10. So its trivial for them to ambush him at 60 feet just before his darkvision would pick them up. They open with darkness cast centered on him, then faerie fire. Then they just kill him. He can't see them, so 90% of his spells do nothing, and he's not got third level spells so he can't kill the darkness. If he dashes 300 feet back to a bend in a tunnel he has a chance, but its a small one.

[Willie the Duck]

"If your character is leaving the party to go on an adventure, you and I will resolve that outside of the campaign. Regardless, the rest of the party will be moving on without you so if you want to play with the group you need a new character."

Players don't get to hold the entire table hostage just so they can go on a private journey of self-actualization.

Very much. A simple, "Well, your PC will not be back in time for the next adventure upon which we as a table will be focusing. If you want to play next week, I suggest making an alternate character and figuring out how they will fit in the party" should probably suffice.


The fact that this is a suicidal venture is completely irrelevant. Well, not completely irrelevant. Its relevant insofar as, if you want to, you can just kill him

I'd suggest to the OP that they explain that it looks like suicide, asking why they think otherwise, and listening to the player explain what he thinks his character would do to get out of this certain doom (or just why they don't think it would be the case). If the player is making some bizarre leap of logic that their character would know better, let them know (saying, "your character would know that the drow would not XYZ, and thus..."). If they are just supremely overconfident, well then let the chips fall where they may... if you have the time to run a separate encounter with the drow, have that happen and see how it goes. If you don't, just say, "yeah, that didn't work. It was never going to work. Your character is defeated and captured or killed." -- but then if you don't actually let them play out the encounter probably err on the side of captured and let rescuing them be a plot point if desired.

[Doug Lampert]

{scrubbed}
If a player wants to suicide his character, he will find a way. Allow him to do it off screen.

Correct if you want to let him suicide, but I disagree that suicide is a good idea because you can simply RETIRE the unwanted character. PCs suddenly becoming suicidal for no good reason hurts immersion and the tone of the game.

I tell players having their character do something blatantly stupid and suicidal that they can always simply have the character retire from adventuring and make a new one. I do not care how many characters you make up, if you can convince the rest of the party to put up with adding a new guy every week, go for it.

That has always settled this kind of crap IME.

Players usually know that the stupid, suicidal thing is stupid and suicidal, if, after you make it clear that "your character knows that this is stupid and suicidal" the player still wants the character to do it, it's almost always because the PLAYER wants a new character, and at some point in the past someone trained the player to think that the only way he gets a new character is for his current one to die.

I want you to role play a character that the rest of the party might reasonably take on their adventures, and that could plausibly have survived past the age of 5. If you can't meet those two minimal standards, go play in someone else's game. Star elf that want's to visit drow alone fails at least one and probably both. If you genuinely think that's a reasonable character, I don't need you in an RPG, if we still want to socialize over a game, Spades, Bridge, and board games all exist. If you just want a new character, Abe retires, Bob joins the party. Done.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Assuming typical FR setting Drow really hate elves. We're talking kill on sight or capture to torture and sacrifice.

There's no way an elf is wandering into any sort of drow city and getting out unaccosted in the normal course of events. Being a guard of a caravan will not cut the mustard there.

I doubt it. Sure they really hate elves, but I doubt it would manifest as being abducted out of his caravan. He's only really looking at bad things if he wanders away from his superiors [which shouldn't really be an option]. More importantly, who is actually going to do anything to him? It's not like the Drow government/powers that be is going to put a hit on a random caravan goon, lynch mobs tend to avoid people who can fight back [not to mention large groups of such people like a merchant's security detachment], and your average civilian isn't prone to acting on their views on a ethnic conflict besides avoidance.

And even if he does wander away to a bar or something, unless he deliberately sticks his head into dark and narrow alleys and places he shouldn't [which would be straying into the realm of an adventure and not a downtime gig], he's still most likely to be left alone.

[Anymage]

My first thought is that a level six character should be hard up to even get down to the areas where the drow usually hang out. The underdark is full of other nasty things, and the character would most likely be picked off by one of them long before they set eyes on a drow.

I'm not having any especially clever ideas right now, but maybe brainstorming 30-40 or so increasingly difficult underdark encounters as increasingly difficult skill checks. To avoid wasting too much table time, each failure gives one level of fatigue. (It's not like the underdark is a safe place to properly rest up, after all.) Add a few more to make the trip back up perilous, depending on how deep the character went.

If they realize early enough on that this mission is folly, they can turn back once they understand why this plan was suicidal. If they press too far and don't have enough resources to make it back topside, or if they insist on pushing through until they exhaust themselves to death, those skill checks didn't eat up too much time and the player can be set to roll a new character.

[GlenSmash!]

His character is captured and enslaved by the drow. A priest of the same faith as the Cleric receives a divine message about his imprisonment and informs the rest of the party.

Now the party can decide whether to save the character. And he can decide to roll up a new character to help save the previous one.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Build a fairly typical hunting party, the only sort of thing you'll find without getting close to a city (more importantly, city guards). Drow are expert hunters and love slaves.

Have a priestess, her favorite wizard, two elite warriors, and five regular warriors. The only thing strange about this group is that the priestess brought her pet wizard along (you can replace him with around three drow acolytes instead if you want things a little 'easier')- that's not unheard of, just uncommon. They're known for being sadistic and cruel, so they're not going to have any qualms with roughing the player up first, but they aren't going to kill him- drop to 0, and next thing he knows, he's being trained to work as that priestess's new butler.

Roleplay a few days of the general mistreatment he's going to suffer (drow like breaking their slaves in. They also see them as entirely expendable). Whatever gear he had is going to end up sold, and no matter what he says, he's not going to be considered for her personal guard- she'd be the laughing stock of her city if she ever allowed it. And laughing stocks in Llolthian society get brutally murdered.

Then her house gets raided by a bunch of Gaunadaur cultists, looking for sacrifices. They're actually after the priestess, but the player's there, so might as well take him, too. He wakes up tied to a stake with the other major members of his household, doused in oil. He watches as they incinerate his master as an offering during their daily prayer, letting him know that he's going to be last just because he's not a very good sacrifice.

A few days later, his turn is coming up. Then all of a sudden, one of them turns on the others- he'd been replaced by an intellect devourer days before, and the illithids were finally making their move to infiltrate and dispose of their entire organization in order to get some useful spies they could unleash on the drow. They subdue everyone, replace some brains and begin ceremorphosis everywhere. When they get to the player, however, the chaos of what they'd just done attracts the attention of a purple worm that was hunting in the area. It tunnels down and makes a snack out of the lot of them, but misses the player by chance before tunneling away again.

The tunnel it first used to attack crumbles away, revealing a long, twisting path back to the surface. With no other options, the naked and traumatized player walks his way back to the surface.

Now have him roll for a long term madness.

[Contrast]

I doubt it. Sure they really hate elves, but I doubt it would manifest as being abducted out of his caravan. He's only really looking at bad things if he wanders away from his superiors [which shouldn't really be an option]. More importantly, who is actually going to do anything to him? It's not like the Drow government/powers that be is going to put a hit on a random caravan goon, lynch mobs tend to avoid people who can fight back [not to mention large groups of such people like a merchant's security detachment], and your average civilian isn't prone to acting on their views on a ethnic conflict besides avoidance.

And even if he does wander away to a bar or something, unless he deliberately sticks his head into dark and narrow alleys and places he shouldn't [which would be straying into the realm of an adventure and not a downtime gig], he's still most likely to be left alone.

I would agree with you if the character was anything but an elf. One of the main unifying forces in Drow culture is a desire to avenge themselves on/murder all surface elves.

I agree that if they were part of some important delegation they might get disposition and begrudgingly be left alone (which is well outside the scope of a downtime activity). Random caravan guard? They'll get taken/killed and the drow wouldn't care if the caravan complained - after all they should be grateful the drow even let the lesser races trade in their city! It would be a literal affront to the ruling houses of the city to have a surface elf just wandering around sightseeing.

That's my understanding anyway (and I assume OPs given they seemed to consider the exercise completely suicidal). Everyone is obviously free to run them however they like.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I would agree with you if the character was anything but an elf. One of the main unifying forces in Drow culture is a desire to avenge themselves on/murder all surface elves.

I agree that if they were part of some important delegation they might get disposition and begrudgingly be left alone (which is well outside the scope of a downtime activity). Random caravan guard? They'll get taken/killed and the drow wouldn't care if the caravan complained - after all they should be grateful the drow even let the lesser races trade in their city! It would be a literal affront to the ruling houses of the city to have a surface elf just wandering around sightseeing.

That's my understanding anyway (and I assume OPs given they seemed to consider the exercise completely suicidal). Everyone is obviously free to run them however they like.

That seems highly unrealistic. Do you think Jane or Joe otherwise unarmed Drow going about her daily task is going to up and fight a heavily armed mercenary?

There are fairly significant unifying forces in real life countries about vengeance against real life ethno-cultural groups, and while real-life governments take action on a large scale with troops and ships and there's a lot of media and rhetoric and hate expressed, but very few actually act on any such rhetoric on the individual level.

My take would be that if you walk into a Drow city, your average citizen would probably avoid you. The vast majority are farmers, smiths, etc. who aren't even going to think about trying, and might privately or loudly grumble about how the community is going to hell since they let people whose ideology only understands war against them in. The only real capture case I can forsee is if he wanders away from the group and the townsfolk call the guard on him, but while he's with the group at worst he's going to be avoided. Even the most angry and violent mob isn't going to aggressively assault a group of well-armed mercenaries outside of exceptional circumstances, and if he's obviously part of a caravan and stays with them they're not going to call the guard on him.

And as far as the government goes, he's also not really in any threat. A single unexceptional caravan is usually well beneath their attention. They might detain or harass "enemy nationals" every once in a while on principle if they also have something they can make stick or they make themselves vulnerable, but stopping every single elf in every caravan that trades with them would be infeasible and inconvenient and being in the caravan transporting arms to anti-government movements or something would place this firmly in the realm of being in an adventure he didn't know he was part of that the GM decided he was on rather than himself choosing to have a private adventure.


And of course, he can also be presented with the alternate choice of speaking with a drow merchant come to their city.

[strangebloke]

Very much. A simple, "Well, your PC will not be back in time for the next adventure upon which we as a table will be focusing. If you want to play next week, I suggest making an alternate character and figuring out how they will fit in the party" should probably suffice.

Yeah, I think the key is to realize that the issue here isn't that he's being sucidal, the issue is that he's wasting people's time. The second session I had of DND featured the party ranger going off into the woods for 2 hours real-world-time to go "hunting." The DM tried to punish him with an encounter and he ran away and that's fine, but it wasted so much time. The DM had the audacity to grouch at me for doing homework during the game!

...all things considered its amazing that I decided to keep playing the game after that particular campaign.

[ProsecutorGodot]

And as far as the government goes, he's also not really in any threat. A single unexceptional caravan is usually well beneath their attention. They might detain or harass "enemy nationals" every once in a while on principle if they also have something they can make stick or they make themselves vulnerable, but stopping every single elf in every caravan that trades with them would be infeasible and inconvenient and being in the caravan transporting arms to anti-government movements or something would place this firmly in the realm of being in an adventure he didn't know he was part of that the GM decided he was on rather than himself choosing to have a private adventure.


And of course, he can also be presented with the alternate choice of speaking with a drow merchant come to their city.

Unless this is a very homebrewed setting, Drow are incredibly militant and xenophobic. They're not going to have the perimeter of their towns unguarded (especially with how dangerous the Underdark is) and they're almost certainly not sending trading caravans to the inferior overworld races.

Drow barely tolerate the existence of the other races present in the Underdark, an outsider would have a very large target painted on their back unless they made a concerted attempt to blend in. Heck, Drow are constantly having interpersonal conflict, it's dog eat dog from the bottom to the top. Successfully acquired a slave would give your house status which might curry favor with one of the larger houses.

Jane and Joe the farmers might take you in and treat you hospitably on the surface but don't be shocked if they end up poisoning you and carting you off to one of the houses they swear fealty to so that you can start farming and they can move up in the world. An adventurer with spellcasting ability would be quite the piece for some noble drow to parade around.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Unless this is a very homebrewed setting, Drow are incredibly militant and xenophobic. They're not going to have the perimeter of their towns unguarded (especially with how dangerous the Underdark is) and they're almost certainly not sending trading caravans to the inferior overworld races.

Drow barely tolerate the existence of the other races present in the Underdark, an outsider would have a very large target painted on their back unless they made a concerted attempt to blend in. Heck, Drow are constantly having interpersonal conflict, it's dog eat dog from the bottom to the top. Successfully acquired a slave would give your house status which might curry favor with one of the larger houses.

Jane and Joe the farmers might take you in and treat you hospitably on the surface but don't be shocked if they end up poisoning you and carting you off to one of the houses they swear fealty to so that you can start farming and they can move up in the world. An adventurer with spellcasting ability would be quite the piece for some noble drow to parade around.

I find it almost outright impossible to believe that a nation that is stable and at least passably prosperous is actually conducting 0 trade. North Korea is literally the only potentially applicable example, and even then they trade with China and try to trade clandestinely through other nations' authorities. In addition, they're like completely dirt-poor for their lack of trade.

And in a society of political maneuvering for wealth and power... having the wealth coming in from merchants absolutely would place the matriarch willing to sponsor trade head and shoulders and waist and feet above those sticking to their guns and refusing to talk to non-drow. Money is power.

As for Jane and Joe farmer, they're not going to take you in in the first place, and they're not going to poison you if you're at the market standing with your caravan master because if they care, they're going to keep it to themselves since you're heavily armed and with a lot of heavily armed friends and they have a spade.

[strangebloke]

I find it almost outright impossible to believe that a nation that is stable and at least passably prosperous is actually conducting 0 trade. North Korea is literally the only potentially applicable example, and even then they trade with China and try to trade clandestinely through other nations' authorities. In addition, they're like completely dirt-poor for their lack of trade.

And in a society of political maneuvering for wealth and power... having the wealth coming in from merchants absolutely would place the matriarch willing to sponsor trade head and shoulders and waist and feet above those sticking to their guns and refusing to talk to non-drow. Money is power.

As for Jane and Joe farmer, they're not going to take you in in the first place, and they're not going to poison you if you're at the market standing with your caravan master because if they care, they're going to keep it to themselves since you're heavily armed and with a lot of heavily armed friends and they have a spade.

Take it up with Ed Greenwood, man, that's what the source material says.

[Yunru]

I find it almost outright impossible to believe that a nation that is stable and at least passably prosperous is actually conducting 0 trade. North Korea is literally the only potentially applicable example, and even then they trade with China and try to trade clandestinely through other nations' authorities. In addition, they're like completely dirt-poor for their lack of trade.

North Korea doesn't have massive acres of somehow-fertile land, clerics who can create food out of nothing, regular raids on other countries, or a literal god in their corner.
Drow aren't civil, they're Barbarian raiders that just happen to like civil comforts.
(They're also a big fan of slave labour, so I guess they're somewhat civil :P )

[GlenSmash!]

North Korea doesn't have massive acres of somehow-fertile land, clerics who can create food out of nothing, regular raids on other countries, or a literal god in their corner.
Drow aren't civil, they're Barbarian raiders that just happen to like civil comforts.
But don't tell that to North Korea

[Contrast]

snip

If your objection is that the setting in unrealistic I don't disagree. But that is what the setting is (and honestly name me a fantasy setting that is realistic). You're welcome to ignore it but my concern is that OPs player shares your viewpoint while OP is running them according to the setting and mismatched expectations lead to bad roleplaying experiences.

To take some quotes from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes:


From the time they're old enough to understand, drow are taught that they're superior to all other creatures ... Any creature that isn't a drow is useful only as a sacrifice to Lolth, as a slave, or as fodder for the giant spiders that the drow train...


...drow society is predicated on a foundation of terror and slavery, and the most desirable slaves live on the world's surface: humans, dwarves, and best of all, other elves.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Drow society is weird in general, but they do trade with the surface for a lot of goods. The Merchant Clans are extremely important for the survival of their cities.

Thing is, their traders are actually not often drow; they're well aware of how the other races view them, and they hate sunlight either way. So they "hire" intermediaries from other races to do the actual exchanges, usually managed by drow wizards back home. You won't see a trade caravan in the Underdark that hails you and invites you to check out their wares, because you are in the Underdark and it's filled with scary things that make this kind of behavior suicidal.

[BloodOgre]

I should have been more clear. I have warned him many, many, times this was a stupid idea. I've already asked him his plans and it seems it is as simple as just walking into a Drow city all by him self.

City guards: "You were who again?... Ah yes, the Magistrate has actually been expecting you. Could you come with us, please? She has been looking forward to meeting you."

PC either runs, in which case the Drow send out a party after him, or PC goes with guards. If the latter...

Magistrate: "Ah so good of you to come. We heard you were coming... uh, what was your name again? Ah yes. To be fair, you are from the surface and you know how to find us, and you have already seen far too much of our city. So, shall we put you to death immediately, or do you have some skill that might make you useful as a slave? What? No, we didn't really know you were coming. This is how we treat all enemies who show up unannounced."

[lordarkness]

Heh, I think the comparison to North Korea is an appropriate one except for the evil part (not that the North Korean government isn't evil but because the North Korean people are not). North Korea trades all over the world. The import and export technology and scientists as well as goods. They have a surprising tourism industry. The export labor (often construction crews) all over europe, asia, the middle east and africa (not sure about the americas). They wouldn't survive otherwise.

That being said, if you waltzed into North Korea just to say "hi" you'd be well and truly screwed. Maybe you'd survive but you probably wouldn't want to.

[strangebloke]

Perhaps we stop bringing up real-life nation states?

the point is, real-world logic doesn't apply unless the DM wants it too.

[Particle_Man]

Let the player go down to see the drow. Let the other players temporarily play the particular drow that run into him. That should solve that.

[Composer99]

Long story short, A level 6(2Cleric/4 Sorc) Star elf (Sea elf stats) Just got back from the Underdark with his party so he KNOWS how dangerous it is down there figured he didn't get to meet any Drow. So now during down time he wants to go back there BY HIM SELF. To find and say hello to the Drow. Which I made very clear In character and out that the Drow are NOT friendly in any way shape or form.

So outside of overwhelming him with Drow spell casters and soldiers to for ever enslave his character, what else drow like stuff can I use to confirm a just punishment

PS, he believes he has a way to escape...As the dungeon master I highly doubt a level six multi classier can escape from a Drow city, in anyway shape or form. Again I want a punishment that'll stick

Basically, you need consequences that make sense within the setting as mediated by yourself. That's not hard. I would take great care to frame the situation as a matter of consequences, as you have done with the thread title, and not as a matter of "punishment".

Venturing into the Underdark is an adventure, and not in any way downtime, unless you're going as part of a heavily armed trade caravan that has some kind of formal protection from drow, duergar, or other Underdark denizens. (And I'm not sure I'd allow that even then.) So, frankly, you should just tell the player that, no, the elf is not going down into the Underdark all by himself as a downtime activity.

If the player wants the elf to do so anyway, the player has to roll up or build a new character to contribute to whatever adventure the rest of the party wishes to undertake during the game session while the elf wanders into the Underdark, unless the rest of the party decides to go along. In no case should the time that the entire group takes to come together to play be spent on this wild goose chase without such agreement.

Beyond that, it's up to you whether you have the time and inclination to run any kind of solo adventure in which the elf tries to navigate the Underdark. If so, then a handful of random encounters and a survival-style skill challenge should give the elf the chance, if he is exceptionally lucky, to get to the point where he gets to meet drow. If not, I would just go with a skill challenge in which all but the most favourable set of circumstances results in the elf dying - at the hands of the drow, at the hands of some other Underdark creature (there are plenty to choose from, after all), or even simply because they got lost and ran out of food or water or ran into some fatal hazard (firedamp or blackdamp, say).

You should get the character to spell out why it is that he believes he has a way to escape, say, a drow city (the fact that he likely wouldn't live to find one notwithstanding). Not because you want to necessarily plan on countering it specifically, but because, apart from the possible misapprehension that his elf has sufficient plot armour to survive, the belief, however well-founded or unfounded, that his way to escape is satisfactory might be another possible misapprehension.

[Aliess]

Scale it right back. They have been into one tunnel complex and didn't find any drow, so the downtime action can be rephrased as "find a clue to where a drow Outpost/City might be."
Tell the player they spend a week wandering around various bars, adventurer guilds, low level mages hunting for clues. Have them make some sort of persuasion or investigation skill and give them some combination of:
-the location of a village that was raided a year or two ago,
-a Miner who's company dug too deep
- A suspicious black robed stalker

depending on their level of success

[KorvinStarmast]

I disagree with the notion presented that it should be along the lines of "you're dumb, so you're dead. Period." That said, I agree with the notion that travelling to the underdark isn't really a downtime thing, it's an adventure.

If I may riff off of your idea there;

However, if your goal is just to see Drow, there's a trader who arrived in town at night who makes contact with an NPC that the party knows. Trading (sweet illicit / valuable underdark stuff) is usually frowned upon locally, so this all has to be on the down low. The transaction takes place on the following evening half a day's travel from town where the drow merchant caravan made a camp under deep cover in the woods/hills/caves nearby. Needs the PC (or the party) to come along as muscle/back up since the Drow are known for taking advantage of surface dwellers whenever they can ...


This kind of interaction can thus involve the party, rather than just this player who wants a one on one adventure.

DM time is a finite resource, and this player needs to learn to respect that.

[BloodOgre]

Heh, I think the comparison to North Korea is an appropriate one except for the evil part (not that the North Korean government isn't evil but because the North Korean people are not). North Korea trades all over the world. The import and export technology and scientists as well as goods. They have a surprising tourism industry. The export labor (often construction crews) all over europe, asia, the middle east and africa (not sure about the americas). They wouldn't survive otherwise.

That being said, if you waltzed into North Korea just to say "hi" you'd be well and truly screwed. Maybe you'd survive but you probably wouldn't want to.

Precisely, if you wander into NK territory (likewise with the Drow), you are considered a spy and imprisoned until you prove otherwise. And it is difficult to prove you aren't a spy while sitting in a cold, dark cell. As far as being protected in a caravan goes, A couple of years ago the North Koreans detained and imprisoned an American student because he tried to do something to a political poster that was hanging in a common area of their hotel. Likewise, even if you are traveling with a heavily armed trading caravan, once you are in Drow controlled territory, if you go off on your own, and the Drow catch you, the caravan won't make any real effort to get you back.

[BarneyBent]

I find it almost outright impossible to believe that a nation that is stable and at least passably prosperous is actually conducting 0 trade. North Korea is literally the only potentially applicable example, and even then they trade with China and try to trade clandestinely through other nations' authorities. In addition, they're like completely dirt-poor for their lack of trade.

And in a society of political maneuvering for wealth and power... having the wealth coming in from merchants absolutely would place the matriarch willing to sponsor trade head and shoulders and waist and feet above those sticking to their guns and refusing to talk to non-drow. Money is power.

As for Jane and Joe farmer, they're not going to take you in in the first place, and they're not going to poison you if you're at the market standing with your caravan master because if they care, they're going to keep it to themselves since you're heavily armed and with a lot of heavily armed friends and they have a spade.

They don’t conduct zero trade. They trade with Duergar and other Underdark races. Trade with the surface comes through intermediaries. And they absolutely DO NOT trade with Elves.

Drow cities are heavily fortified, an Elf would stand out like a sore thumb, and an Elf caravan guard would be either slaughtered or enslaved at the gate barring absolutely exceptional circumstances.

[Nhorianscum]

Build a fairly typical hunting party, the only sort of thing you'll find without getting close to a city (more importantly, city guards). Drow are expert hunters and love slaves.

Have a priestess, her favorite wizard, two elite warriors, and five regular warriors. The only thing strange about this group is that the priestess brought her pet wizard along (you can replace him with around three drow acolytes instead if you want things a little 'easier')- that's not unheard of, just uncommon. They're known for being sadistic and cruel, so they're not going to have any qualms with roughing the player up first, but they aren't going to kill him- drop to 0, and next thing he knows, he's being trained to work as that priestess's new butler.

Roleplay a few days of the general mistreatment he's going to suffer (drow like breaking their slaves in. They also see them as entirely expendable). Whatever gear he had is going to end up sold, and no matter what he says, he's not going to be considered for her personal guard- she'd be the laughing stock of her city if she ever allowed it. And laughing stocks in Llolthian society get brutally murdered.

Then her house gets raided by a bunch of Gaunadaur cultists, looking for sacrifices. They're actually after the priestess, but the player's there, so might as well take him, too. He wakes up tied to a stake with the other major members of his household, doused in oil. He watches as they incinerate his master as an offering during their daily prayer, letting him know that he's going to be last just because he's not a very good sacrifice.

A few days later, his turn is coming up. Then all of a sudden, one of them turns on the others- he'd been replaced by an intellect devourer days before, and the illithids were finally making their move to infiltrate and dispose of their entire organization in order to get some useful spies they could unleash on the drow. They subdue everyone, replace some brains and begin ceremorphosis everywhere. When they get to the player, however, the chaos of what they'd just done attracts the attention of a purple worm that was hunting in the area. It tunnels down and makes a snack out of the lot of them, but misses the player by chance before tunneling away again.

The tunnel it first used to attack crumbles away, revealing a long, twisting path back to the surface. With no other options, the naked and traumatized player walks his way back to the surface.

Now have him roll for a long term madness.

This is very "and then"

[Composer99]

Build a fairly typical hunting party, the only sort of thing you'll find without getting close to a city (more importantly, city guards). Drow are expert hunters and love slaves.

Have a priestess, her favorite wizard, two elite warriors, and five regular warriors. The only thing strange about this group is that the priestess brought her pet wizard along (you can replace him with around three drow acolytes instead if you want things a little 'easier')- that's not unheard of, just uncommon. They're known for being sadistic and cruel, so they're not going to have any qualms with roughing the player up first, but they aren't going to kill him- drop to 0, and next thing he knows, he's being trained to work as that priestess's new butler.

Roleplay a few days of the general mistreatment he's going to suffer (drow like breaking their slaves in. They also see them as entirely expendable). Whatever gear he had is going to end up sold, and no matter what he says, he's not going to be considered for her personal guard- she'd be the laughing stock of her city if she ever allowed it. And laughing stocks in Llolthian society get brutally murdered.

Then her house gets raided by a bunch of Gaunadaur cultists, looking for sacrifices. They're actually after the priestess, but the player's there, so might as well take him, too. He wakes up tied to a stake with the other major members of his household, doused in oil. He watches as they incinerate his master as an offering during their daily prayer, letting him know that he's going to be last just because he's not a very good sacrifice.

A few days later, his turn is coming up. Then all of a sudden, one of them turns on the others- he'd been replaced by an intellect devourer days before, and the illithids were finally making their move to infiltrate and dispose of their entire organization in order to get some useful spies they could unleash on the drow. They subdue everyone, replace some brains and begin ceremorphosis everywhere. When they get to the player, however, the chaos of what they'd just done attracts the attention of a purple worm that was hunting in the area. It tunnels down and makes a snack out of the lot of them, but misses the player by chance before tunneling away again.

The tunnel it first used to attack crumbles away, revealing a long, twisting path back to the surface. With no other options, the naked and traumatized player walks his way back to the surface.

Now have him roll for a long term madness.

This is very "and then"

No "and then"! No "and then"! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqwzuiSy9y0)

[KorvinStarmast]

They don’t conduct zero trade. They trade with Duergar and other Underdark races. Trade with the surface comes through intermediaries. And they absolutely DO NOT trade with Elves. Heh, as I was skimming through the thread, I took "they" to be North Korea and thought: "Well how cool is that? Only people in North Korea have ever seen a real Drow and a real Duergar! We need to get someone to schedule a convention in NK so that other people get a chance to meet a real live Drow! " :smallbiggrin:

But if it's Drzzt .... Arrrggghh! :smallfurious:

[Bundin]

Running off to the Underdark to find Drow is not a matter of days, weeks may not be enough either. After all, there appear to be no Drow near the known/close entrance. So ask yourself and your players this:

1. Are you willing to design encounters/story/skill checks for this one player, spending time with him while the rest waits?
Yes - goto 2
No - "Sorry, this doesn't fit the current story, it's not happening at this time. Offer the option of the character becoming an NPC. The NPC's exploits may be added to the lore of the world, if notable enough. Maybe have a 1-on-1 with the player about what exactly happened, and add that to the rumours/stories that go around.

2. Is everyone ok with weeks/months of downtime for their characters at this point in the active campaign? If there's any sense of urgency, I'd expect some noes here. Apperently, the party isn't willing to go with him, so I'd imagine they'd want to continue their own adventures the moment this character left on his solo thing.
Yes - goto 3
No - it doesn't happen, again the NPC offer.

3. pick one of the options offered in this topic, I'd also suggest the skill check series to prevent everyone else sitting on their asses for hours.

[Waterdeep Merch]

No "and then"! No "and then"! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqwzuiSy9y0)
If you're gonna show a player how insignificant they are in the face of them aliens they wanna rush in to see, you might as well hold their head under the water for a while. To get the message across.

[Nhorianscum]

If you're gonna show a player how insignificant they are in the face of them aliens they wanna rush in to see, you might as well hold their head under the water for a while. To get the message across.

"And then" is a deragatory term for an oft used fallacy in extruded fictional product. It's not good.

As a player I'm not upset, or engaged in any way by the scenario you presented as everything is just... "and then!" there is no interaction, no choice, no agency, nothing of interest one way or another. I'm stepping out for a smoke here.

[ProsecutorGodot]

"And then" is a deragatory term for an oft used fallacy in extruded fictional product. It's not good.

As a player I'm not upset, or engaged in any way by the scenario you presented as everything is just... "and then!" there is no interaction, no choice, no agency, nothing of interest one way or another. I'm stepping out for a smoke here.

While I generally agree that forcing a player through a laundry list of situations with no input of their own, if it reaches the point listed above then they had their input. Despite every warning to the contrary tell them in and out of character that this was a bad idea, they still decided to eat up table time by going off on their solo adventure to meet drow.

Is it a good solution? Not likely. Will it effectively teach the player that this was a mistake and how to avoid them in the future? Pretty likely. Despite how extreme it is, the player has a chance to keep this character (despite the potentially crippling madness) and they're also taught a valuable lesson on listening to both your DM and whatever NPC told you that Drow don't take kindly to visitors.

The ones who suffer most in this example are the other players. While it's debatable on whether or not the problem player is deserving of this is one thing but the other players are definitely not going to enjoy sitting through how solo adventure and punishment thereafter.

[Waterdeep Merch]

"And then" is a deragatory term for an oft used fallacy in extruded fictional product. It's not good.

As a player I'm not upset, or engaged in any way by the scenario you presented as everything is just... "and then!" there is no interaction, no choice, no agency, nothing of interest one way or another. I'm stepping out for a smoke here.
It's precisely what the player asked for in the first place. I posited a very quick microcosm of drow society through the eyes of an outsider.

It's a succinct description of why this idea was terrible enough for the DM to actively warn them against it. And aside from getting them to agree to simply not do the thing (which is far more reasonable, but that method appears to be failing), this is the only route I can think of to prevent this sort of behavior in the future. It's a process I've developed for dealing with certain new players that like to hog table time and believe they're invincible- I make it as clear as I possibly can that they most definitely are not, bad decisions lead to bad consequences, and I'm going to make a fun short story out of it for everyone else to follow at their expense.

There may be other methods (and plenty are outlined in this thread), but this one is mine. And while this may not work for everyone, it's made players better around my table.

[Mordaedil]

DM time is a finite resource, and this player needs to learn to respect that.
Uh, is it a finite resource though? It kinda depends on the relationship between the players and their DM, doesn't it? Scheduling conflicts is usually the biggest deterent to running games on regular for most people these days, but finding time for a 1-on-1 session that doesn't eat into everyone elses time reads as acceptable to me. if it is a bit more distant than "just between friends", then sure, you make a good point here.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Uh, is it a finite resource though? It kinda depends on the relationship between the players and their DM, doesn't it? Scheduling conflicts is usually the biggest deterent to running games on regular for most people these days, but finding time for a 1-on-1 session that doesn't eat into everyone elses time reads as acceptable to me. if it is a bit more distant than "just between friends", then sure, you make a good point here.

Not all of the DM's work happens during scheduled sessions, requests like this might take time away from other preparations. Time is a finite resource for everybody but at your table your DM's is usually most precious. Without them taking time out of their life to read through or work on a campaign off scheduled play times you wouldn't really have much of a session at all.

I wouldn't feel good by essentially asking my DM to put the main campaign on hold until I've had a solo session exploring Drow society. When you make the statement "I go to see Drows and there's nothing you can do to stop me" don't be surprised if your DM responds with "Okay, that would take too long to play out and this was meant to be downtime so roll percentile and we'll see if you survive... Yea, 26 isn't gonna cut it. While everyone else figures out their downtime you can roll a new character up. The rest of you watch So-and-So walk into the woods saying they're going back into the Underdark to meet Drow, despite your best efforts to dissuade them, they insist it's fine. In the weeks that follow you hear no word from them and assume the worst, you find So-and-So 2 at a local tavern looking for work and decide to ask them to travel with you. Now that we're back on track, where to next for you guys?"

That would be more time than I would put into it. If I had a character walk into virtually certain death, I would just tell them they died because the chances of reasonably surviving are worse than their odds of winning the lottery.

[Nhorianscum]

It's precisely what the player asked for in the first place. I posited a very quick microcosm of drow society through the eyes of an outsider.

It's a succinct description of why this idea was terrible enough for the DM to actively warn them against it. And aside from getting them to agree to simply not do the thing (which is far more reasonable, but that method appears to be failing), this is the only route I can think of to prevent this sort of behavior in the future. It's a process I've developed for dealing with certain new players that like to hog table time and believe they're invincible- I make it as clear as I possibly can that they most definitely are not, bad decisions lead to bad consequences, and I'm going to make a fun short story out of it for everyone else to follow at their expense.

There may be other methods (and plenty are outlined in this thread), but this one is mine. And while this may not work for everyone, it's made players better around my table.

My point was that the story is not engaging and is thus not entertaining. Our storytelling gains nothing and loses everything by removing agency.

It's my pet peeve.

[KorvinStarmast]

Uh, is it a finite resource though? Yes, DM's are also people with lives. Some DM's can make some extra time for a one one one, many cannot IRL. We've had three campaigns in the last year go dormant for that explicit cause. DM's life changed, no time.

[Contrast]

My point was that the story is not engaging and is thus not entertaining.

It's my pet peeve.

Imagine you had just described how the party was crossing over a bridge over a 1000ft chasm to get to the party objective on the other side of the bridge and are taking a break mid-way due to how long the bridge is. The level 1 PC said they wanted to climb up on the edge of the bridge and jump off because they want to see what's at the bottom. You warn them that they'll die if they do it. They say they want to anyway. You describe how they fall to their death. The player proceeds to complain that the outcome wasn't very engaging or entertaining.

Would you think that was a reasonable complaint or is the failure to provide an entertaining/engaging gameplay moment on the player for making a bad choice?

While I agree a DM should strive to provide an engaging and enjoyable experience for players, sometimes bad decisions result in situations where you don't have good (or indeed any if the decisions were bad enough which in this case it would appear they are) choices.

[Nhorianscum]

Imagine you had just described how the party was crossing over a bridge over a 1000ft chasm to get to the party objective on the other side of the bridge and are taking a break mid-way due to how long the bridge is. The level 1 PC said they wanted to climb up on the edge of the bridge and jump off because they want to see what's at the bottom. You warn them that they'll die if they do it. They say they want to anyway. You describe how they fall to their death. The player proceeds to complain that the outcome wasn't very engaging or entertaining.

Would you think that was a reasonable complaint or is the failure to provide an entertaining/engaging gameplay moment on the player for making a bad choice?

While I agree a DM should strive to provide an engaging and enjoyable experience for players, sometimes bad decisions result in situations where you don't have good (or indeed any if the decisions were bad enough which in this case it would appear they are) choices.

Oh I'd just say "ok you're dead reroll" (ok I'd have fun describing the splatter a bit) if they failed their climb(athletics) check of DC10-15 by 5 or more. no other party member had feather fall, no other party member stopped them, etc. It happens. I also would not give warning because the reaction is waaaay funnier that way.

The difference here is that the players had full control up to the moment of death and the death bit is a direct one to one consequence of a suicidal action. Even in the case of the suicidal action falling from 1k ft is gonna give the player time to do something even if it's only rolling (acrobatics) kiss buttocks goodbye.

[Contrast]

Oh I'd just say "ok you're dead reroll" (ok I'd have fun describing the splatter a bit) if they failed their climb(athletics) check of DC10-15 by 5 or more. no other party member had feather fall, no other party member stopped them, etc. It happens.

The difference here is that the players had full control up to the moment of death and the death bit is a direct one to one consequence of a suicidal action.

The problem is that here the players intended course of action is what gets them killed. If they succeed in navigating the Underdark to achieve their goal of finding a drow city...they get taken as a slave/die. So either they fail and get killed in the Underdark or succeed and...get killed in the Underdark.

This is why in my analogy they were jumping off the bridge rather than climbing down. You could make them roll some checks if you want to I guess while they're falling but their destination is the same no matter what because they already chose to jump.

[Nhorianscum]

The problem is that here the players intended course of action is what gets them killed. If they succeed in navigating the Underdark to achieve their goal of finding a drow city...they get taken as a slave/die. So either they fail and get killed in the Underdark or succeed and...get killed in the Underdark.

This is why in my analogy they were jumping off the bridge rather than climbing down. You could make them roll some checks if you want to I guess while they're falling but their destination is the same no matter what because they already chose to jump.

This is where I disagree. The player is not trying to find a drow city. Just some drow. The player has a tooooon of spells and abilities (10-11 spells known/prepared, 4+ profficencies, CD, tools/items) that they can use to bullsheet their way out of this along with excellent charisma and tolerable wisdom.

In the case of entering a drow city... oh that is one HELL of a story and there are soooo many ways to play it out. Is the most likely outcome death? Sure, but there is a chance of the player succeeding and more importantly there are soooo many incredible ways to die or be enslaved here each more insane and over the top than the last. Yeah I'm into it and would show up an hour early to run it and invite the rest of the table because this is a SHOW.

My issue with the "and then" approach here is that it's effectively a no, but it also wastes as much or more time than the lesser drow encounter.

In short. If the 1st level player wants to jump off a 1000 ft cliff. We should be asking "do you have feather fall?".

[Waterdeep Merch]

This is where I disagree. The player is not trying to find a drow city. Just some drow. The player has a tooooon of spells and abilities (10-11 spells known/prepared, 4+ profficencies, CD, tools/items) that they can use to bullsheet their way out of this along with excellent charisma and tolerable wisdom.

In the case of entering a drow city... oh that is one HELL of a story and there are soooo many ways to play it out. Is the most likely outcome death? Sure, but there is a chance of the player succeeding and more importantly there are soooo many incredible ways to die or be enslaved here each more insane and over the top than the last. Yeah I'm into it and would show up an hour early to run it and invite the rest of the table because this is a SHOW.

My issue with the "and then" approach here is that it's effectively a no, but it also wastes as much or more time than the lesser drow encounter.

In short. If the 1st level player wants to jump off a 1000 ft cliff. We should be asking "do you have feather fall?".
Maybe how you'd run it. The entire point to that congo is to give them exactly as much control as they're liable to get there. They'll be in a situation (slavery) where being controlled is the entire point, and hopefully the player was warned this was true. If they think they're clever enough to get out of it, by all means- show me. I've been surprised before.

More importantly, this sort of ridiculous scenario also provides something that ISN'T likely, and is the only piece of the puzzle that is secretly on the player's side:

Even if they don't have a way out, I let the character live in the end. Only this kind of "and then" storytelling even allows that. Hell, it's the entire purpose of tabletop roleplaying as far as I'm concerned. It's where all the interesting stories come from.

[Contrast]

This is where I disagree. The player is not trying to find a drow city. Just some drow. The player has a tooooon of spells and abilities that they can use to bullsheet their way out of this along with excellent charisma.

I feel like we have vastly different expectations for the survivability chances of a single level 6 PC wandering around in the Underdark (and very very different opinions on the likelihood of an elf being able to peacefully resolve an encounter with drow by talking).

One of the real problems with D&D is that it's actually very difficult for players to gauge how dangerous tasks are for a character of their level in game. A lich and a skeleton in a robe look pretty much identical but are wildly different in terms of threat. An animated armour and a death knight both look similar and are probably less imposing than a hill giant but one is much more dangerous and one less. What is deadly for the general populace is a walk in the park for PCs so the DM saying something is dangerous is often seen as a green light for players as a quest hook which can make it quite difficult to really get across to players that this thing is actually really dangerous for them.

It seems from what they've said that OP shares my opinion on the suicidal nature of the endeavour more than they share your opinion on the exciting tale of bravado and derring do such an endeavour would result in.

As I said upthread, OP really needs to be clear with their player about expectations like these as a mismatch in understanding like this is what causes people to get upset.

[Nhorianscum]

Maybe how you'd run it. The entire point to that congo is to give them exactly as much control as they're liable to get there. They'll be in a situation (slavery) where being controlled is the entire point, and hopefully the player was warned this was true. If they think they're clever enough to get out of it, by all means- show me. I've been surprised before.

More importantly, this sort of ridiculous scenario also provides something that ISN'T likely, and is the only piece of the puzzle that is secretly on the player's side:

Even if they don't have a way out, I let the character live in the end. Only this kind of "and then" storytelling even allows that. Hell, it's the entire purpose of tabletop roleplaying as far as I'm concerned. It's where all the interesting stories come from.

In this case it's fair to say that you're just entirely missing the point.

IE that "and then" is how interesting or engaging stories die.

Edit @Contrast: Oh a level 6 PC in the underdark is most likely dead. I'm just ok with telling the story of this with the player and genuinely enjoy that sort of thing. I'm just also ok with the PC managing to live cause yeah, that's another cool story. I like fun.

[Waterdeep Merch]

In this case it's fair to say that you're just entirely missing the point.

IE that "and then" is how interesting or engaging stories die.

I think we're talking past each other instead.

Firstly: I have absolutely never heard of this fallacy you keep mentioning.

I tried to find it, too. Or something similar enough that perhaps you're just using a term for it that's not common. I'm not going to pretend to be some sort of authority on fiction telling, but I have worked in fiction storytelling for money with which I used to pay rent, and intend to in the future. Not enough to call myself 'professional', not by my counting, but I take classes and do a lot of reading on storytelling techniques. I'm not going to go so far as to say that you're making this up. I will go so far as to say that I've had plenty of lessons telling me to do the opposite.

It's about causality. Details are what are most important to make a setting come alive. Since it's generally poor form to blandly describe a setting in the story, you do this by having the details naturally impact the story. Everything counts. When multiple possible vectors converge on a situation, you get a more complex and complete story. Hopefully you've spent some time setting up (or at least hinting) at these details ahead of time, of course. Though it's also no real sin to just never fully explain a detail so long as it's not vital to the story.

What you're calling "and then" is just causality as far as I'm concerned. If this is the thing you're opposed to, then, if you'd indulge me a bit, I'd like to hear why it's poor storytelling beyond it being a 'pet peeve'. But I *think* you're trying to talk about piling on, or going over-the-top. Which it is, but this is more about style. In which case we're at an impasse simply because I like going over-the-top and, if I'm right, you don't. That's not a slight on you, it's just a difference of taste.

[Contrast]

Edit @Contrast: Oh a level 6 PC in the underdark is most likely dead. I'm just ok with telling the story of this with the player and genuinely enjoy that sort of thing. I'm just also ok with the PC managing to live cause yeah, that's another cool story. I like fun.

Shockingly, I too like fun :smallwink:

I have played in a game of Feng Shui where the only one capable of piloting the plane we were currently in threw themselves out of the door of the plane without a parachute and it was a great time. But an important part of playing RPGs is setting a shared world and the expectations of that world.

This is why I keep on harping on about shared expectations. My concern is the DM is running a Faerun fantasy setting where drow are psychotically evil slavers and torturers while the player thinks they're playing in a heroes journey saga where drow are just elves who happen to live underground and their character will only ever experience setbacks, not defeat. That seems to be the only situation this makes sense to me (unless the character is just trying to get their character killed so they can roll a new one in which case, just roll a new character don't waste table time killing off the old one - that is a pet peeve of mine :smallwink:).

Nothing kills my enjoyment in playing an RPG faster than realising my choices don't really matter. I've played with a friend of mine for a number of years but some time ago I realised he fudges heavily to avoid killing me and also to ensure combats remain dramatically balanced. Ever since then I've never really been able to get invested in any of the games he runs. I'll turn up and come along for the ride but it all feels very shallow and just much less fun for me.

If I (or another player in the group) chose to jump off a bridge and then the DM has a magic eagle suddenly swoop out of nowhere and save the PC - was that a more interesting and a cooler story than the PC just falling to their death? Sure. Would it completely kill my interest in the game and make it less fun for me to actually play in? Also yes.

From that standpoint if we're working on the assumption the player is going to die doing this and the DM isn't going to fiat some miraculous escape, I think the point I'm trying to make is that giving the player a narrative of what happens seems a lot more enjoyable than 'Roll initiative, we're now going to sit here rolling dice for 20 minutes until one of these encounters kills you'.

[Nhorianscum]

I think we're talking past each other instead.

Firstly: I have absolutely never heard of this fallacy you keep mentioning. "And then" is a form of lost agency.

I tried to find it, too. Or something similar enough that perhaps you're just using a term for it that's not common. I'm not going to pretend to be some sort of authority on fiction telling, but I have worked in fiction storytelling for money with which I used to pay rent, and intend to in the future. Not enough to call myself 'professional', not by my counting, but I take classes and do a lot of reading on storytelling techniques. I'm not going to go so far as to say that you're making this up. I will go so far as to say that I've had plenty of lessons telling me to do the opposite.

It's about causality. Details are what are most important to make a setting come alive. Since it's generally poor form to blandly describe a setting in the story, you do this by having the details naturally impact the story. Everything counts. When multiple possible vectors converge on a situation, you get a more complex and complete story. Hopefully you've spent some time setting up (or at least hinting) at these details ahead of time, of course. Though it's also no real sin to just never fully explain a detail so long as it's not vital to the story.

What you're calling "and then" is just causality as far as I'm concerned. If this is the thing you're opposed to, then, if you'd indulge me a bit, I'd like to hear why it's poor storytelling beyond it being a 'pet peeve'. But I *think* you're trying to talk about piling on, or going over-the-top. Which it is, but this is more about style. In which case we're at an impasse simply because I like going over-the-top and, if I'm right, you don't. That's not a slight on you, it's just a difference of taste.

Again you're missing the point.

The storytelling device this ties into is agency of character.

In this case our story is PC walks in, and then, and then, and then, et . We set nothing up that is open for interaction and our PC cannot affect the events that unfold. Nothing matters. Not even the NPC choices.

As for going over the top. This is nowhere near over the top, which was my issue with that aspect. We'd need to heighten the reality of this world to go over the top but this narrative was very much within the boundries of a normal DnD fantasy. An example of a story with little agency and tons of "and then" that is enjoyable purely for how over the top it goes is ye olde "sword of truth". Or just "Over the top" a film starring Selvester Stalone as a freaking competitive arm wrestler/trucker/single estranged father.

As for "suicide" OOTA "starts" at 2nd level deep in the drowiest bits of the underdark.

[KorvinStarmast]

As for "suicide" OOTA "starts" at 2nd level deep in the drowiest bits of the underdark. But that isn't the adventure that the DM is running, right?
Or is it?

[Waterdeep Merch]

Again you're missing the point.

The storytelling device this ties into is agency of character.

In this case our story is PC walks in, and then, and then, and then, et . We set nothing up that is open for interaction and our PC cannot affect the events that unfold. Nothing matters. Not even the NPC choices.

As for going over the top. This is nowhere near over the top, which was my issue with that aspect. We'd need to heighten the reality of this world to go over the top but this narrative was very much within the boundries of a normal DnD fantasy. An example of a story with little agency and tons of "and then" that is enjoyable purely for how over the top it goes is ye olde "sword of truth". Or just "Over the top" a film starring Selvester Stalone as a freaking competitive arm wrestler/trucker/single estranged father.

As for "suicide" OOTA "starts" at 2nd level deep in the drowiest bits of the underdark.
So your issue is player agency, then, and not a storytelling fallacy. This I can deal with;

If I were in this DM's shoes, I already gave them agency in allowing them to do something that was neither expected nor intelligible, and is, in fact, a pretty significant amount of expenditure by the DM to even fulfill this red herring nowhere of a plot. I give them agency in allowing them to do it anyway, but I in no way am willing to defang the situation for them, as taking away the danger presented by such a decision is robbing them of purpose in place of this agency, which is far more damaging as far as I'm concerned. If you discover that you really can do whatever you want and I will never, ever allow you to feel any real consequences, then we are no longer playing a game. Let's just sit down and collaborate on a novel together instead, because you really ought to be more involved in the process of your wish fulfillment.

I do find a way to get them out of it that's in keeping with the themes of the setting and (hopefully, but that's up to the DM) the plot, one where the Underdark is super-mega-evil and Llolthian drow society is ultra-extra-bad-news, because unless death is the only realistic outcome, I really do prefer to shy away from it since little of interest can happen to a dead person. Uh, barring afterlife adventure, but... well, usually you don't do that.

So I give them a very rapid short story of events to address a couple key points I might use as hooks/antagonists later (again assuming they don't actually pull a rabbit out of a hat and find a way out, I'm open to it), give them a slap on the wrist in the form of gear loss (if I'm feeling generous, I might recommend to them as one last freebie that they may want to leave their valuables with the party), and then leave them in a reduced but recoverable state. This helps tie the player more directly into the setting and these sorts of antagonists, which can make for interesting plots later. Perhaps they try this whole thing again at high levels with the tools to avenge himself.

Considering this is downtime, they're getting to do a whole lot more than all the other players combined already. The outcome might be obvious, but it's not set in stone. They're getting a whole lot more out of it in the long-run, too.

[Nhorianscum]

But that isn't the adventure that the DM is running, right?
Or is it?

It's not. We do know that within stock standard 5e lower level PC's can survive in super hell underdark thanks to OOtA though.

That said the DM did just run the party through the underdark at or below their current exp level so it's dangerous but survivable, and the PC has a dangerous but survivable goal.

Edit @ and then guy: My issue is agency period. If it was just player agency I would not still be discussing this. The NPC's... everything lacked agency.

The player requested this as downtime as the DM failed to present a simpleou wha hook after the player requested it before and during session. Imo the player has done nothing "wrong" allowing them their story for better or worse but allowing it to be their story seems fair. You just seem... vindictive.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Edit @ and then guy: My issue is agency period. If it was just player agency I would not still be discussing this. The NPC's... everything lacked agency.
Okay, you've lost me. Player agency is essentially the only thing in the game. What's left? DM agency? You aren't seriously telling me the NPC's need a voice beyond what the DM decides, are you?

EDIT myself:

The player requested this as downtime as the DM failed to present a simpleou wha hook after the player requested it before and during session. Imo the player has done nothing "wrong" allowing them their story for better or worse but allowing it to be their story seems fair. You just seem... vindictive.
See, and I see this as the same as allowing a player to just dictate events freely without consequence, which is not a 'game' as far as I'm concerned. They might as well tell me they spend 5 downtime days becoming the local king. It's more interesting if they were, right?

[Nhorianscum]

Okay, you've lost me. Player agency is essentially the only thing in the game. What's left? DM agency? You aren't seriously telling me the NPC's need a voice beyond what the DM decides, are you?

EDIT myself:

See, and I see this as the same as allowing a player to just dictate events freely without consequence, which is not a 'game' as far as I'm concerned. They might as well tell me they spend 5 downtime days becoming the local king. It's more interesting if they were, right?

That is the power of PC's yes. As DM's we control the world and they control the narrative through agency.

Removing this is removing any reason to play. Nobody wants to see a DM play with themselves.

Yes in a living world NPC's get to have agency, this is how we interact with and oppose player agency.

[Waterdeep Merch]

That is the power of PC's yes. As DM's we control the world and they control the narrative through agency.

Removing this is removing any reason to play. Nobody wants to see a DM play with themselves.

Yes in a living world NPC's get to have agency, this is how we interact with and oppose player agency.
I think this is where we're talking past each other.

I'm recommending a chain of events. This is no different from a module's plot- a DM is supposed to change things when and where it's appropriate based on the player's actions. But the player isn't acting in a vacuum, and I see no problem with planning out an 'ending' to the events ahead of time based on the likely outcome of the player's actions.

This is why I keep mentioning changing the plans if the player does manage to circumvent something. They ought to be rewarded for such cleverness. There's the player agency I'm seeing but you're insisting doesn't exist if the cards happen to be stacked against them.

I mean, they are. The same way fighting something too high of a CR can be. But if the player was warned, it's their choice to avoid it or chance it.

[Nhorianscum]

I think this is where we're talking past each other.

I'm recommending a chain of events. This is no different from a module's plot- a DM is supposed to change things when and where it's appropriate based on the player's actions. But the player isn't acting in a vacuum, and I see no problem with planning out an 'ending' to the events ahead of time based on the likely outcome of the player's actions.

This is why I keep mentioning changing the plans if the player does manage to circumvent something. They ought to be rewarded for such cleverness. There's the player agency I'm seeing but you're insisting doesn't exist if the cards happen to be stacked against them.

I mean, they are. The same way fighting something too high of a CR can be. But if the player was warned, it's their choice to avoid it or chance it.

It was portrayed as "and then" regardless of your intentions which is my issue. Not your GMing, your attitude towards the player, etc.

Just the nature of the written example. It's staggeringly difficult to write any coherent tale that isn't "and then" within the context of this thread, it is what it is. Regardless of intention you read as coming down very hard on the ending given.

My position is that the example as written is not bueno as a way to resolve the PC's hook and I'm comfortable standing by that opinion. I really do feel that no matter the approach it should always fully engage the player if it is being approached in game.

As for planning, that's very fluid on a DM to DM basis. We all do our thang here.

[BloodOgre]

So, getting back to the OP's original post, the PC wants to do this in his downtime. This is in between adventures. There is no roleplay involved.

Downtime is a finite commodity. It allows you to do specific things that can have a specific beginning and end and are interruptible so that you may adventure with the party. Taking a trip to the underdark to find a drow would be quite open-ended and the PC may not be able to return to the party in time for their next adventure.

Further, PHB, DMG and XGtE all spell out and expand upon specific downtime activities. Nowhere is "Take a trip to the underdark to find a drow" listed as a downtime activity. In fact, not even "Take a trip" is listed, most likely because such a trip is an "adventure" and that is what roleplay, and not downtime, is for. The DMG does discuss creating downtime activities and has some guideline, including:

"An activity should never negate the need or desire for characters to go on adventures."
and
"For an activity you expect a character to repeat with variable degrees of success, consider creating a random outcome table, modeled on the ones in this chapter."

Trying to find a drow, should be an adventure, that kind of violates the first recommendation.

None of the tables in the DMG section on Downtime list "death" as an option. In fact, most of the table let you roll for how successful you are, and while there is a chance at failure, the chance of failure is quite low. A visit to the underdark to meet a drow would have, I think, a very high failure rate, with one very real possible outcome being death. This should be roleplayed.

I would tell the player, "visiting the underdark to find a drow is not a downtime option, it is an adventure." If I have the time, I would follow that with, "I would be willing to roleplay that with you one on one, if you like, but you would need to roll up a new character for the current group campaign since your trip to the underdark will likely take much longer than the downtime you have available."

And DM time IS a FINITE resource. For each hour of gameplay, I spend several hours creating environments, encounters, story lines and story hooks. Even when I ran PotA, I spent time reading up on the next part of the adventure and all the ways it might play out so that my players don't have to spend a half an hour twiddling their thumbs while the DM tries to "figure something out". There are those DMs that can wing it on a regular basis, and I know a few that do. I only know one that does it consistently moderately well, and even he has trouble keeping aspects of his own campaign straight because he doesn't write stuff down, much less plan ahead. But he is a good story-teller.

[Cygnia]

Any updates to this, OP?

[Sigreid]

I'm going to reiterate my previous comment. The game isn't just about the players. The DM has to enjoy it too. So, unless the DM wants to run this little side adventure for the player, it's more than ok to just say "No, i'm not running that".

[FoxWolFrostFire]

I did post an update at the first post. But I'll go ahead and do it here. Thankfully. I was able to distract him with a talking dog he's been taking care of that he didn't know could talk. I was also able to invent an NPC drow he could meet on the surface which told him. In Character from a Drow's point of view how aweful and oppressive it is to live in Drow culture unless you're a Drow woman.

Now how ever. He wants to go into the underdark to try and meet a Drider instead of drow...Despite again that drow from before telling him in alot of ways Drider are just worse than Drow.

[Zhorn]

I did post an update at the first post. But I'll go ahead and do it here. Thankfully. I was able to distract him with a talking dog he's been taking care of that he didn't know could talk. I was also able to invent an NPC drow he could meet on the surface which told him. In Character from a Drow's point of view how aweful and oppressive it is to live in Drow culture unless you're a Drow woman.
That's a good way to handle it, and i sure hope this will help the player to...

Now how ever. He wants to go into the underdark to try and meet a Drider instead of drow...Despite again that drow from before telling him in alot of ways Drider are just worse than Drow.
... never mind.
This is clearly one of those "I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you" situations. At the very least you've given them something to keep them out of the downtime underdark expedition (or at least supplied enough to tell them their downtime has been spent doing those other things and the follow up would have to be part of an adventure along with the party).
Even if the party doesn't pursue an adventure down into the underdark, I'd be inclined to give the player a drider interaction at some point (any random cave encounter will suffice). Make it deadly, make it scary, make it something that lives up to how violent, blood-thirsty and vicious these things are meant to be. It's like the dragon problem; so many newer player want to dive into a dragon encounter early with reckless abandon with little thought as to how far lower down the food chain they are in comparison to them. Sometimes there's no substitute for a first hand experience to humble a player.

[Nhorianscum]

I did post an update at the first post. But I'll go ahead and do it here. Thankfully. I was able to distract him with a talking dog he's been taking care of that he didn't know could talk. I was also able to invent an NPC drow he could meet on the surface which told him. In Character from a Drow's point of view how aweful and oppressive it is to live in Drow culture unless you're a Drow woman.

Now how ever. He wants to go into the underdark to try and meet a Drider instead of drow...Despite again that drow from before telling him in alot of ways Drider are just worse than Drow.

Inb4 "What do I need to roll to seduce the drider"

[ProsecutorGodot]

I did post an update at the first post. But I'll go ahead and do it here. Thankfully. I was able to distract him with a talking dog he's been taking care of that he didn't know could talk. I was also able to invent an NPC drow he could meet on the surface which told him. In Character from a Drow's point of view how aweful and oppressive it is to live in Drow culture unless you're a Drow woman.

Now how ever. He wants to go into the underdark to try and meet a Drider instead of drow...Despite again that drow from before telling him in alot of ways Drider are just worse than Drow.

I'm glad the Drow visit was able to happen without too much issue (despite my insistence that it was an unlikely scenario to begin with, I'm always happy to hear that an issue was resolved without character death) but a Drider is pushing that even further.

Drider are kept segregated from regular Drow, they're believed to be cursed by angering Lolth. I suppose they might be more sympathetic than a standard Drow, being shunned and outcast from your family and society while being stoned and told you're nothing more than a failure and that you should live your incredibly long life reflecting on that seems enough to soften their views on outsiders. That is, assuming they weren't driven mad while surviving alone in the Underdark. The only Drider's that I have encountered in games that I've played have been either openly hostile or insane, obviously yours don't have to be the same but I'm pretty sure that the default assumption is that they'd rather eat you or avoid you altogether.

With this new insight, I'm almost wondering if the player actually has a deathwish for this character. I was already a bit concerned at the idea of a solo trip to meet Drow in the underdark but if the requests keep going in this direction it isn't going to stop until the player is asking to have a 1 on 1 chat with a Yochlol.

[zinycor]

I happen to like these talking PCs, and as long as it is clear that going to talk to a drow city that you have never been to isn't a downtime activity, I believe going to talk and establish a friendship with a horrible and terrible monster is a valid goal.

[Bjarkmundur]

I'm coming into this pretty late, and I haven't read all the posts yet, but I have to tell you I was once that person.

My motivations? I didn't feel immersed in the campaign and wanted to explore the fantasy world an make new friends. Maybe this is him telling you that he wants more factions and groups that he can freely interact with as means of helping him feel like his character is a part of a living, breathing world.

My 2cp

EDIT: Just saw the update, I'm glad you guys came to an understanding :D

[Tawmis]

Long story short, A level 6(2Cleric/4 Sorc) Star elf (Sea elf stats) Just got back from the Underdark with his party so he KNOWS how dangerous it is down there figured he didn't get to meet any Drow. So now during down time he wants to go back there BY HIM SELF. To find and say hello to the Drow. Which I made very clear In character and out that the Drow are NOT friendly in any way shape or form.
So outside of overwhelming him with Drow spell casters and soldiers to for ever enslave his character, what else drow like stuff can I use to confirm a just punishment
PS, he believes he has a way to escape...As the dungeon master I highly doubt a level six multi classier can escape from a Drow city, in anyway shape or form. Again I want a punishment that'll stick
Update: He didn't do it. I throw some stuff at him that was more interesting to his character, and I was able to search my cities and find a surface Drow for him to meet...Now he just wants to say hello to a Drider next time he gets a chance. Oooooh. Yeah.

Next time, let him do it. Let him be taken prisoner. You did, after all, warn him.
Have a random character, a level below everyone else, in the ready - and slide it over to him and say, "There's the character your playing until the party rescues you."

[Bjarkmundur]

Next time, let him do it. Let him be taken prisoner. You did, after all, warn him.
Have a random character, a level below everyone else, in the ready - and slide it over to him and say, "There's the character your playing until the party rescues you."
+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1

[Ekzanimus]

How old is your player?

[FoxWolFrostFire]

How old is your player?

He is 27, And i'm like...70% sure he just wants to be in the BDSM sexy elf city for wacky Anime plot. But I never really set up the world in large for that and never showed that be a bigger theme in my world. I would RARELY throw him a bone and do something like that. But I made it very clear in Context this isn't how the world at large worked.

[Ekzanimus]

He is 27, And i'm like...70% sure he just wants to be in the BDSM sexy elf city for wacky Anime plot. But I never really set up the world in large for that and never showed that be a bigger theme in my world. I would RARELY throw him a bone and do something like that. But I made it very clear in Context this isn't how the world at large worked.
Well... If this is not what your world is meant to be - I mean BDSM-anime-fantasy with lusty elves - then it's best to show the player what your world really IS. If he will see that his lewd fantasies can't happen than - hopefully - he will not create such difficulties for you and party anymore. If you will support his strange kinks even when they are not realistic in your world than it will quickly become a chore for you. At first - drow, than - drider, and than what? He will want to befriend illithid's elder brain for some tentacle-filled action?

[zinycor]

Well... If this is not what your world is meant to be - I mean BDSM-anime-fantasy with lusty elves - then it's best to show the player what your world really IS. If he will see that his lewd fantasies can't happen than - hopefully - he will not create such difficulties for you and party anymore. If you will support his strange kinks even when they are not realistic in your world than it will quickly become a chore for you. At first - drow, than - drider, and than what? He will want to befriend illithid's elder brain for some tentacle-filled action?

Gotta say, I love this idea! Am now really tempted to make my character a horny bard who wants to go down on all kinds of monsters.

Seems really fun and comical.

[Particle_Man]

Gotta say, I love this idea! Am now really tempted to make my character a horny bard who wants to go down on all kinds of monsters.

Seems really fun and comical.

This has been thought of before:

https://pics.me.me/thumb_no-no-no-said-slay-the-dragon-not-lay-papa-1os-44283690.png