Barbarian Multiclass options

[Marywn]

I've been wondering about what classes barbarian benefits the most from multi-classing, including third party classes.

Anything that helps with natural weapons or a two handed weapon if possible.

I don't have too much knowledge on this topic and any help would be appreciated.

[BlueWitch]

Fighter is a bit vanilla, but those extra feats do help.

If you really wanna go ham with the Natural Attacks, I'd say ditch Barbarian and go Druid, then use Barbarian for the dip. A Raging Tiger can be a real pain.

I made a Raging Druid that was only 2 levels higher than my players (was DM'ing, and she was the Final Boss) and she ended up killing all of them with relative ease. (Though to be fair, they weren't optimized and made some really bad calls that session. I think even if there levels had been the same the outcome would have been that same.)

Sorry for the tangent, but yeah, go Fighter for the free feats. There's also an Archetype that called "Two-Handed Fighter"

[Psyren]

Pathfinder classes usually don't get enough from multiclassing that it's worth the things you lose (FCB and scaling features.) Even dipping for class skills or proficiencies usually isn't worth it. Is there something specific you're after?

[Marywn]

As a barbarian, I wanted to see if i could get something else that woundn't hinder me too much. If Multiclassing is more harmful than helpful that would be nice to know.
I mostly asked due to feeling that I could do more with barbarian, but not having enough knowledge of items and classes was something that became very obvious to me.
I'm mostly trying to gather information that might help me make a more informed decision about this multi-classing. Maybe prestige classes... It's rather hard to look at literally all of them, and be able to gauge most of them effectively, for me anyways.

[Bovine Colonel]

I don't think you can go too far wrong with straight Barbarian. Grab all three Beast Totems, grab Come And Get Me (or Taunting Stance if unchained), grab Combat Reflexes, grab a reach weapon and use claws to cover adjacent opponents, grab Power Attack/Improved Initiative/other generic fighter feats, become a pouncing whirlwind of death.

Might be worth grabbing Superstitious/Witch Hunter/Spell Sunder if you're worried about casters, or Combat Expertise/Stalwart/Improved Stalwart to boost physical defenses. If you're grabbing Combat Expertise it might also be worth it to get Improved Trip/Greater Trip to be a pouncing whirlwind of death that also trips people.

[Alexvrahr]

If you want something different to the standard barbarian, PF's usual means is different rage powers (e.g. savage dirty trick), different archetypes (e.g. mooncursed, or masquerade reveler for a 3rd party example) or a different if related class (e.g. bloodrager). Prestige classes or multiclassing are options but honestly not the best, PFs designers are averse to them due to backlash against their dominance in D&D 3.x.

[Gnaeus]

A level or 2 in a path of war class benefits most melee. Often it helps to take it at character level 5 or 9 for higher level maneuver access.

[Psyren]

If you want something different to the standard barbarian, PF's usual means is different rage powers (e.g. savage dirty trick), different archetypes (e.g. mooncursed, or masquerade reveler for a 3rd party example) or a different if related class (e.g. bloodrager). Prestige classes or multiclassing are options but honestly not the best, PFs designers are averse to them due to backlash against their dominance in D&D 3.x.

I wouldn't say they're averse to PrCs necessarily; Pathfinder has dozens and dozens of first-party prestige classes. But PF's design philosophy seems to be that PrCs should represent specialized training for an organization or order, not something that every member of class X is expected to gravitate towards as a matter of course. Put another way, you don't become a Hellknight because your base class doesn't have class features worth mentioning, you become a Hellknight because your character wants to join the Hellknight order and believes in their cause, even if that cause merits slowing down your bloodline development et al.

[Silvercrys]

Yeah small dips into fighter or a path of war class like Warlord can be okay, but you don't want to lose too many of your base class levels because you lose rage powers and favored class bonuses.

Basically you can't really beat straight Barbarian 20 with pounce for damage because of Rage and all that other stuff.

Prestige classes that advance your base class can be okay if you build around them. Mortal Usher is a pretty good vital striker if you really wanted to build one, gives you through Improved Vital Strike for free, some bonus damage when using Vital Strike, and progresses your base class by 5 levels over the prestige class. Optimizing a bit by using a Large Greatsword at -2 to hit and taking Gorum's Swordsmanship so you can vital strike on a charge, and taking the Furious Finish feat can have you rolling enough damage dice to make the Rogue blush, or you can use the ranged Barbarian archetype (Primal Hunter) with a Large Orc Hornbow. Gets even nastier if you can get real size increases and the size increasing weapon enhancement on top.

Evangelist is okay for some builds for which Deific Obedience is good, as well, since you only lose one class level of progression. Have to make sure what you're getting is worth it, though, your main class feature is early access to Deific Obedience boons so it's pretty campaign/deity dependent.

Generally speaking, you should either pick a base class and then choose archetypes to optimize your character concept for that class, or pick a prestige class and try to optimize that by multiclassing base classes to gain earliest entry or get base class abilities that synergize with the prestige class (For example, I would definitely say the Barbarian / Mortal Usher build is a Mortal Usher build, not a Barbarian one, Vital Strike is pretty awful without that prestige class and it's not all that good even with it compared to just plain Barbarian 20).

[Marywn]

Basically, This build is a Kijin(That half elf-oni race) and wacking things really hard with a large sized Tetsubo, which is why I asked about two handed fighting classes. It is a dr tank build, but I've found I don't ever get to use the guarded life rage power, I've been thinking of replacing the rage power, talking to the dm about it.
Overall I wanted to just get a good feel of what things I should go for, I've already got that sweet beast totem greater, its very good, especially with an impact weapon.

[Psyren]

What rage powers and feats do you have so far? How many do you have available to play with?
What is everyone else in the party building for? Are the major roles like primary caster and skillmonkey covered?
Is there a specific slant to the campaign, e.g. undead-heavy, urban intrigue, wilderness exploration, aquatic etc.?

[Marywn]

Lighten Weapon to be able to wield the Tetsubo, I only have one feat to use.
I have power attack, improved critical, Heavy armor Focus, and Armor Focus, Damage accumulation to bypass the dr, and Toughness
Rage powers are Mighty swing(almost all enemies i face have fort then insane ac), Beast Totem tree, Bloody fist, Guarded Life and Gaurded life greater.
The setting is a futuristic dystopia, with urban enviroments and anomalies. It's sorta open worldish, we can do what we like, though
The others are a void cleric, she is the support and healer. We have a techslinger, that is skill monkey, and a... I don't even know, its a 5 way multiclass to get as much grit points as possible, but it is also skill monkey.
We have a tank and crafter, and I am Frontline tanking and melee attacker

[upho]

Warning: wall of text coming up! :smalltongue:

You can improve the combat effectiveness of your current barbarian a lot without any levels in another class, and even more with one or two levels in another class (or other classes). Exactly how much is primarily dependent on how much retraining of primarily feats and rage powers you're willing and allowed to do in your game, and of course what would suit with the general power level of your game.

Especially that latter part about "balancing to the table" is typically important to avoid unintentionally making the game less fun with an OP character build, so please keep in mind that the following questions and suggestions are based on the assumption that you're looking to improve your barbarian's mechanical abilities to overcome challenges (especially combat). And conversely, if you feel your current build is already granting your barbarian sufficient such abilities in most cases and situations, you're instead likely much better off viewing the options I'll suggest primarily as examples of things you should stay well clear of to avoid making your barbarian OP for your game... :smallsmile:

Before we go into any specifics, I think you should take a moment to more precisely define what you wish your barbarian to focus on and strive to accomplish in combat, a.k.a. their "combat role", and then if you have any specific wishes on how they should accomplish that:
I am Frontline tanking and melee attackerIn which general sense would you like your barbarian to be "frontline tanking and melee attacker"? Would you say it's mostly in the sense of 1, 2 or 3:

1. "Meat Shield Punisher" Attempts to protect the party mostly by trying to stand in the way of the enemy, disabling them with melee dealing loads of hp damage while being highly durable primarily vs melee dealing hp damage. Has mostly passive defensive abilities (such as high AC, lots of hp, DR, self-healing etc). This type of "tank" is typically highly dependent on terrain and the abilities of enemies to be able to actually protect squishy allies, and ironically tends to end up far more effective if actually trading much of the investments boosting passive melee durability for investments boosting offensive abilities. (Generally speaking, if you have no reliable means to make enemies to attack you instead of your allies, options allowing you to more quickly kill enemies will protect your allies far better than options increasing your own durability.) The "traditional" high AC fighter or Invulnerable Rager type of barbarian are typical Paizo examples of this kind of tank.

2. "Control Tank" As 1 above, but with a more general durability more based on active abilities, and a focus on hindering enemies from attacking allies through means other than hp damage and threatening a larger area. Meaning great melee reach combined with defensive interrupting out-of-turn abilities (such as Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/) counters, AoOs with powerful non-damage rider effects, Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex), etc) and debilitating control/debuff in-turn offense (through for example combat maneuvers and/or Path of War maneuvers), plus great defenses/durability also against most forms of crippling effects in addition to hp damage (saves, CMD, Resistances, Path of War counters etc). This type of tank is usually more complex and tricky to build and a bit more tactically demanding in play, but can be made extremely effective, able to reliably not only protect both allies and their self, but also quickly disable enemies (or even take them out of the fight) and often greatly increase the effectiveness of allies. See "Conny Control" in the spoiler at the end of this post for a relatively simple but (arguably too) powerful Paizo example "Control Tank" build.

3. "Defender" As 1 or 2 (or anything in between) but also complemented with abilities specifically for attracting more enemy aggression and drawing it away from allies. (No such abilities effective also past earlier levels are found in Paizo material, but for example the warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/warder) and potentially the zealot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/zealot) (both from Dreamscarred Press) provide them as class features.) Example type 2 "Control Tank Defender" build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21860394&postcount=240).

I believe your current build is very much in line with the type 1 "Meat Shield Punisher", having invested primarily in melee damage boosts and personal passive durability against melee hp damage, but is that also what you're most interested in?

A few quick suggestions/thoughts on your current build (again from a purely mechanical optimization PoV, so please disregard these if you're not in need of greater combat prowess or aren't able or interested in changing your previous choices):

Lighten WeaponI suggest you change this for Mighty Frame (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/dreamscarred-press/feats/#Mighty_Frame_Heritage) (has no attack penalty, works with any weapon and comes with additional benefits).


TetsuboI can see the idea here with the x4 crit multiplier and 1d10 damage die, but you're better off focusing primarily on either getting a huge damage die (preferably with a butchering axe plus maybe Vital Strike with Seize the Opportunity) or crit-fishing via many attacks with one or two 18-20 crit range weapon(s). It's highly unlikely you'll see enough crits using the tetsubo to make related investments worthwhile, and other weapons and options can help you deal significantly more damage by offering a greater damage die if you'd like to stick with the over-sized weapon thing.


improved critical If not combined with a very high crit range and plenty of attacks per round for a reliable and predictable crit frequency, there are plenty of much stronger damage boost options available to you (such as say Horn of the Criosphinx to go with your pouncing).


Heavy armor FocusHonestly, you're being robbed here; a mere +1 AC for the cost of an entire feat is terrible. For truly worthwhile AC increases with a 2-handed weapon, I really recommend you consider Shield Brace with a mithral heavy shield instead, giving you a +3 shield bonus to AC from scratch and up to at least a +8 with cheap armor enhancements. Also, what did you have to pay for Heavy Armor Prof.?


Armor FocusWhile this isn't necessarily a bad feat for other classes during earlier levels, note that it's likely useless for you since the DR doesn't stack with the scaling DR granted by your barbarian damage reduction class feature. (Unless of course you've taken an archetype which trades away that feature and you don't gain DR from another source.)


Mighty swing(almost all enemies i face have fort then insane ac)This is also rather poorly supported by your current build, primarily because it's 1/rage and you can't rage-cycle AFAICT, and secondarily because it eats your swift/immediate action during the round (which we're bound to find a much better use for). In addition, there are stronger crit related rage powers available to you, such as say Boar's Charge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/boar-s-charge) to go with your pounce, turning a regular charge hit with a gore attack into a crit threat (combine with a Horn of the Mammoth Lord for a gore and pimp it with a pair of tusk blades (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/goods-and-services/animals-animal-gear/#TOC-Tusk-Blades) for extra omph). Also, keep in mind that while Mighty Swing ignores AC for auto-confirmation, it does nothing to bypass Fortification.


Beast Totem tree,Pounce is great, but keep in mind that it's also very damage focused and goes best with a lot of accurate attacks (notably loads of primary natural attacks), which may not actually be ideal for you. Also, if you'd like to instead focus more on the "hilariously over-sized weapon"-shtick, it's highly likely you're better off using standard action Vital Strike combos and thus won't have to rely on full attacks (or pounce) for insane damage numbers.


Bloody fistInstead of this and Mighty Swing, I really recommend Disemboweling Tusks (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/disemboweling-tusks) with the above mentioned Boar's Charge auto-crit combo, granting you that +1d4 Con damage to your crit without giving the target any chance to save.


We have a techslinger, that is skill monkey, and a... I don't even know, its a 5 way multiclass to get as much grit points as possible, but it is also skill monkey.Are these two are primarily ranged damage dealers? If so, it may be a better idea for you to focus less on damage.


a tank and crafterTank and crafter? That's a combo you don't see every day. :smalltongue: Are they based on a caster class? What's their tank style?


Please post your thoughts on the power level and combat role you're aiming for, whether you'd be OK with and are allowed to to change any options in your current build, and any other wishes you might have, and we should be able to find some fitting options.



Conny can truly dominate the battlefield, threatening a 35' radius and having the ability to make just about any enemy he can detect dazed and utterly useless for at least 2d4 rounds with just two melee attacks (replaced with dirty tricks), as well as panicked for several more rounds with one additional hit. A single AoO is usually enough to make an enemy completely unable to act, triggered also whenever an enemy attempts to attack Conny. Perfect for protecting Conny and his party, not to mention for the purpose of interrogating enemies after the fight instead of killing them during the fight. And Conny also happens to be pretty darn good at scaring such survivors into telling useful truths...

NOTE: While not exactly theory-op, Conny was made primarily to illustrate a few effective 1PP non-damage melee combos available in PF1 and the defender/controller-ish combat role they enable, not as a build suggestion for real games.

Statistics while in greater bloodrage including enlarge person, and while affected by cat's grace and long arm (from wand). Average enemy statistics by CR were taken from this fantastic compilation (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3) of enemies published by Paizo.


PROGRESSION AND BASIC STATISTICS

Human Bloodrager (Primalist) 13
CN Large male humanoid (human)
Aberrant bloodline

Progression of Feats, Bloodline and Rage Powers (preferable order may vary)
1 Dirty Fighting, Improved Dirty Trick (human bonus); Bloodline familiar (compsognathus?)
2 -
3 Enforcer
4 Bloodline power: abnormal reach
5 Divine Fighting Technique (Rovagug’s Thunder)
6 Combat Reflexes (bloodline)
7 Greater Dirty Trick
8 Rage powers: internal fortitude (rage cycling!), savage dirty trick
9 Improved Initiative (bloodline), Ability Focus (savage dirty trick)
10 -
11 Fiendskin
12 Iron Will (bloodline); rage powers: come and get me, strength surge
13 Soulless Gaze
Bloodline familiar Alertness
Flawed scarlet and green cabochon Endurance
Training double-chained kama Ascetic Style (double-chained kama), Intimidating Prowess, Dirty Trick Master
Cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder weapon familiarity, Weapon Focus (double-chained kama)

Ability Scores (20-point buy, including listed gear, bloodrage and cat's grace)
Str 32 (16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 4 belt, 6 rage, 2 size enlarge person
Dex 16 (13 base, 1 level, 4 cat's grace, -2 size enlarge person
Con 22 (14 base, 2 belt, 6 rage
Int 8 (8 base)
Wis 14 (12 base, 2 headband)
Cha 14 (12 base, 2 headband)

Traits Fate's Favored, Reactionary

Notable Gear (90,608 gp of 140,000 gp per WBL) double-chained kama +1 dueling (PSFG) training main end, +1 training (x2) off-end, furious amulet of mighty fists, belt (+4 Str, +2 Con), headband of havoc (+2 Wis & Cha), cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder, flawed scarlet and green cabochon (rage cycling!), cracked dusty rose prism, wands of enlarge person and long arm


KEY COMBAT ABILITIES

Savage Dirty Trick
Can be made in place of any melee attack once per rage and opponent, which is nearly always due to rage cycling. Dirty Trick CMB +40, or +46 with strength surge (average CR 13 CMD is 39, CR 16 is 45). Success effects:

11 lethal damage
1d6+2 nonlethal damage
Free demoralize attempt against target (see below)
Dazzled or sickened* for 1d4 rounds, +1 round per 5 CMB check exceeds CMD, or until target spends standard action to remove (average 4.5 rounds for CR 13, and 3.5 rounds for CR 16, +1 round if using strength surge)
Forces DC 31 Fort save, failure makes target dazed or nauseated for 1 round, and thus unable to take standard actions and consequently also unable to remove the condition (average CR 13 Fort is 13, CR 16 is 16)
Target already dazzled, sickened, dazed or nauseated by a prior dirty trick is instead dazed or nauseated for the entire total remaining duration of all dirty tricks
*Target may instead be blinded, deafened, entangled, or shaken

Demoralize
Free action whenever Conny deals nonlethal damage, Intimidate +31 vs DC (10 + target's HD + target's Wis mod; CR 13 average is 30, CR 16 is 34). First success makes target shaken for a number of rounds equal to the nonlethal damage taken. Second success against target already demoralized worsens condition to frightened, and third success to panicked. (Conny deals nonlethal damage with every successful dirty trick CMB check, and can deal nonlethal damage instead of lethal with any other attacks using his double-chained kama without penalties, as Ascetic Style allows him to apply unarmed strike benefits.)

Other Notable Statistics
Reach all spaces within 30' (threatens 35’ radius with double-chained kama)
Initiative +14 (and uncanny dodge)
AoOs 4 per round of which at least 1 can be a dirty trick, each attack against Conny provokes

[Marywn]

I would classify myself as the 1st option of barbarian, being my HP is the highest of my party, with the invulnerable Rage archetype.

Ya, I did notice that much of what i did was based on passive rage abilities rather than rage cycling, it might be hard to change some of the rage/feats, but I'll try to convince my dm to let me change some things.

I had considered natural weapons, but with high acs, and semi lack of knowledge of natural weapons in general, it's hindered me slightly. I had looked at Gore, but i've never actually tried it because I though I couldn't get it.
[Edit]
He is some sort of tech class, i know he can also cast some spells because he has cast proc from arrows and fire arrows. Don't know off the top of my head. He is a mixture of ranged and melee, but mostly ranged when it comes down to it.

Honestly I really like natural weapons, and I do want to keep the Tetsubo. Dealing con damage would honestly help me alot, and I might try to go a little more in that direction as well.

[Kurald Galain]

I've been wondering about what classes barbarian benefits the most from multi-classing, including third party classes.

All right.

Fighter, in particular the siegebreaker or mutation warrior archetype. Or both - they stack.
Arcanist, with the teleport exploit (fits an oni well! You can also cast mage armor for that buff unarmored look)
Monk, because there are 2H weapons that you can flurry with (e.g. the sansetsukon).

HTH!

[Marywn]

I found out something important, I can retrain feats, only 3 but it's good anyways, Ive already obtained mighty frame, it is actually really good thanks for that.
Ya I can to it one more time, so any feats you can recommend I'm all ears.